Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 129

Archives Table of Contents

Tagged and short articles
I often link to articles without looking, but now I looked and found several core articles tagged for referencing, for example Bayreuth Festival, Der Ring des Nibelungen, La Scala, Liceu. Help? - Maggio Musicale Fiorentino is stubby, compared to its Italian version. Badisches Staatstheater Karlsruhe, Opernhaus Düsseldorf. Help? - All these articles are linked from one short article on a singer. What will our readers think, linking from tag to tag? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:58, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

More: Vienna State Opera --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:09, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

A soprano with many tags: Bidu Sayão. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:06, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Monteverdi Peer Review.
User:Brianboulton and I have sought to significantly expand, and improve the quality of, the article on Claudio Monteverdi and would be very grateful for any comments at the Peer Review which we have just launched here. Many thanks, Smerus (talk) 16:13, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Bayreuth singer links
Re: - It looks as if the Bayreuth Festival changed their database, without redirects. Well, I should probably referenced by Kutsch/Riemens to start with, but the additional info (which role performed when) is easier to read on the festival page, - but only when you don't get a 404 error. What can we do? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:13, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Gerda, I'm afraid they all have to be changed by hand using the new databank list here. This is a list of all the WP articles with links to bayreuther-festspiele.de. This is the same problem we had when Almanacco Amadeus moved from .net to .eu and back to .net. Initially we had to fix them all by hand and then Scarabocchio made a template for it which made things easier when they switiched back. Alas! the Almanacco now appears to be gone forever SMirC-sad.svg. Voceditenore (talk) 13:47, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Claudio Monteverdi for FA
Following a very helpful peer review, Brianboulton and I have resolved to subject the article to an FA candidature, and welcome all and any constructive comment. --Smerus (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Talk:Richard Wagner
A discussion on this topic is taking place on the Richard Wagner talk page. Smerus (talk) 06:47, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Tenore bombardato!
An editor who was banned from adding maintenance tags in April and subsequently retired, sang a tag-bombing swan song at Tenor. The article needs work, but this is truly excessive. Anyone care to take a look? There are two causes for concern which should not be ignored, however. The tags claim copyvio from

1. Fallows, David ; Jander, Owen; Forbes, Elizabeth; Steane, J.B.; Harris, Ellen T. & Waldman, Gerald (2001). "Tenor". Grove Music Online. If anyone has a subscription to Grove Music Online, can you check for copyvio or email me a copy of the article so I can check?

2. Boldrey, Richard (1994). Guide to Operatic Roles and Arias. Caldwell Publishing Company. ISBN 9781877761645. I'm rather dubious about this one having been copied. The tag-bomber clearly hasn't a clue what's in the book and appears to be guessing that it was copied.

Voceditenore (talk) 18:25, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/List of composers who died before age 50
Input welcomed. Softlavender (talk) 01:55, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting discussion. Voceditenore (talk) 08:51, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Follow-up discussion (after the AfD resulted in a delete), see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music. Please comment there, not here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:51, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Joan Carroll (soprano)
I started Joan Carroll (soprano) because she premiered one of the song cycles by Wilhelm Killmayer (Leontyne Price premiered another). She was the first Lulu in the US, but I don't find (at least in a superficial search) any biographical information. Help? Some of the people with whom she was interviewed (one woman, 11 men), died recently, I hope she's alive, but do we know? I am also not happy with the sources for the Santa Fe Lulu premiere in our article, - anything better? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:49, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Found one bit! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:52, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Gerda, she has entry in the Großes Sängerlexikon here. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:58, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you, - I should have looked there first but somehow forgot that it covers not only German singers ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:07, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * According to this article in the New York Times, she and Rudolf Heinrich were divorced and he had remarried by 1971. Voceditenore (talk) 15:22, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * And according to this snippet from Time Magazine in 1962, she was "Born Joan Crugman, the daughter of a Philadelphia portrait photographer, she had studied at Curtis Institute". Voceditenore (talk) 15:31, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * You are great! I meant to create a stub just to avoid a red link ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:47, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * How do I cite such a snippet? - It carries amazing detail. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:04, 19 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi Gerda. I'd use:
 * Time (9 February 1962). "Music: Lulu from East Berlin", p. 64.
 * Here's the link to the article in the Time archives, but you need a subscription to see the whole thing. It is definitely the same article as the Google Books result—I cross checked the text snippets. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 05:55, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Need eyes on two articles

 * Whistle register. The "Uses" sections contains two examples of female pop vocalists who use this register with references to a reliable source. There is edit notice at the top of the "Uses" section:
 * Despite the notice, when I checked the article today 35 names had been added by several users. Virtually all unreferenced, and the ones that are referenced are to fan sites and YouTube. Several of the additions don't even have WP articles. I've restored the article to the original version, but it needs to be watched more carefully.
 * Despite the notice, when I checked the article today 35 names had been added by several users. Virtually all unreferenced, and the ones that are referenced are to fan sites and YouTube. Several of the additions don't even have WP articles. I've restored the article to the original version, but it needs to be watched more carefully.


 * Matthias Manasi. A conductor who allegedly specialises in opera, and is frankly only marginally notable, if at all. The article is almost certainly an autobiography, given that none of the personal details previously in it are published anywhere. It was full of self-serving, misleading, and some cases blatantly false claims with no references to back them up. I just reverted again the latest attempt to re-add them. The multiple red-linked editors are almost certainly socks of the same person. Most of them have been blocked at Commons and several also on the German Wikipedia. The Talk page at the German version of the article is most illuminating. At the rate new socks are being created, it needs watching all the time.

Voceditenore (talk) 08:10, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Is it worth sending the conductor article to AfD? We don't even have an article on Nickel City Opera, so I'm not sure why its music director rates an article, and I'm not seeing much else. Softlavender (talk) 08:19, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Softlavender, be my guest :-). I must say I've been sorely tempted, although the AfD will no doubt elicit the entire sock-zoo. I can't find any reviews or articles about him. The performances I've listed were the only ones I could verify. The two Italian performances were with what is basically a pick-up chamber orchestra in Naples. The PuntaClassic "festival" is only marginally notable even in Uruguay. He conducted one opera for them, despite falsely claiming to be the music director of the entire festival for two years. The recording of  L'occasione fa il ladro where he plays the harpsichord (but is not the conductor) is the only one I could find. There is no indication whatsoever that his putative solo recording of piano music even exists. I suspect the label was invented and it's basically a series of YouTube videos. I've removed it. Voceditenore (talk) 08:47, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I honestly don't feel like personally AfDing it, but I would chime in if it were AfDed (I now have the article on my watch list). The socks can easily be dealt with via the template and tags (and also filing at SPI if desired). If the article is as problematical as you present, I think probably the only way of resolving it is going to be AfD. Softlavender (talk) 08:55, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The question is, does he meet the notability guideline(s), or not? Softlavender (talk) 11:25, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I've found a couple of more performances (no reviews, just on concert descriptions). He might well scrape a pass at AfD, and I can't be fagged to go through all the palaver. The article is now in a non-promotional and accurate state. For now, I'm inclined to just keep on watch and revert the socks. However, if they try it again, I'm going to start an SPI. Voceditenore (talk) 11:30, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * If there are no reviews, and no substantial coverage (say, at least two non-trivial reviews) from reliable independent third-party sources (and no, the Nickel City bio is not independent or even reliable), then he doesn't even pass WP:GNG. What is the specific notability guideline? WP:MUSICBIO? If he does not meet either of those I will be happy to do the AfD myself, and alert the closing admin about all the COI socks/meats. Softlavender (talk) 11:39, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * As far as I can see, Softlavender, he fails to pass either of those, frankly. The only reasonably notable orchestras which he has conducted are Vienna Mozart Orchestra and Liepāja Symphony Orchestra (both of which are second-tier) and that's only as a guest conductor for one concert each. All the other orchestras are distinctly third, and even fourth-tier organizations. Please go ahead and AfD it. Voceditenore (talk) 12:07, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * UPDATE: Now at AfD: WP:Articles for deletion/Matthias Manasi. -- Softlavender (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * UPDATE#2: Quite a lovely collection of socks has now been blocked. Voceditenore (talk) 10:59, 3 October 2017 (UTC)


 * UPDATE #3: The AFD was closed as delete, but the two articles were not salted, so it would be very good if people could put those two titles on their watchlists in case the sockfarm tries to recreate them. Softlavender (talk) 01:31, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Various composer categories nominated for deletion
The discussion is at Categories for discussion/Log/2017 October 1. Voceditenore (talk) 06:42, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Did Lotte Lehmann have a daughter? [SOLVED]
An IP just edited Lotte Lehmann to say she had a daughter (as opposed to "no children"). I reverted it, but I'm seeing info in non-RS NNDB that she had a daughter named Naomi. I can't offhand find any RS about the matter one way or another. My solution has been to add cn tags to both sentences about children and purported stepchildren (how many?), but it would be nice to have factual information. She died in the 1970s; if nothing else, surely there are some obituaries somewhere? Softlavender (talk) 08:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, Voceditenore took care of that in short order. Thanks very much! Softlavender (talk) 10:14, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * You're very welcome, Softlavender. In the process I found an interesting bit about this putative "daughter" at the Lotte Lehmann League. Apparently, her companion, Frances Holden, refused to allow Alan Jefferson access to Lehmann's papers for his biography of Lehmann because...


 * "Jefferson had published a piece about a woman claiming Lehmann was her mother. His apparent gullibility did not assure Frances the kind of accuracy she would want. Famous people gather their unfair share of adoring loonies. Frances gave me an entire correspondence from a woman who began some letters, “Mother Lotte” and in others declared Lehmann to be her “co-mother.” She wrote John Coveney at Angel Records this time revealing herself to be the daughter of Claudia Muzio (1889 – 1936) – requesting that this mother's records be re-issued; she needed the royalties. Coveney sent the letter to Lehmann with a cover note: “And I was the result of an ancient union between Gustav Mahler and Coco Chanel.”"


 * SMirC-crazy.svg Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:54, 3 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Good God. Softlavender (talk) 10:58, 3 October 2017 (UTC)


 * If anyone has a subscription to the archives of Opera, Jefferson's piece on a putative daughter named "Eugenie" appeared in the September 1989 issue and was titled "Lotte Lehmann—a secret life?" but appears to be a reprint of the original article. Voceditenore (talk) 11:30, 3 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Yet more... The daughter named "Naomi" on NNDB obviously comes from an old version version of the WP article with this completely spurious addition in 2012 (later removed). The editor in question was basically spamming the website of a non-notable composer (Eric Nedelman), by claiming that he is the grandson of Lehmann and here, claiming that he is a cousin of Irving Green and here claiming that Nedelman had composed a "tribute" to Angela Harry. The editor's final spam capolavoro (but not related to Nedelman) was this. Geesh! Voceditenore (talk) 12:00, 3 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Oooops. Wow. To be honest, sometimes I've found NNDB to be useful, if only as a starting place for a possible fact. I had no idea that they cribbed from crap on Wikipedia though. Good to know. Softlavender (talk) 12:06, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd never use it for anyone who already has a Wikipedia article. It's pretty clear where they scrape the vast majority of their "data" from, and they clearly don't "curate" it despite allegedly having a "curator". It miiiight be useful as a starting point for someone who doesn't already have an article, but probably no more than amateur genealogy sites, which can also be pretty awful. Voceditenore (talk) 13:15, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Apollon Theater, Syros
A while back I put in a request for an article on this Greek Opera house and it seems that a user named Sila.1994 created one back in September of this year (2017), the article looks like a good overview of the history of the theater, however it's also clear from reading it that English was not the authors first language. It might need revision by a more experienced editor. I am currently embroiled in some other projects at the moment and will not be able to give it the time required.

Graham1973 (talk) 14:25, 4 October 2017 (UTC)


 * I did a few basic things, but same: other projects. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:52, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * It would be useful if the article mentioned the role of opera in this house. As it is, "opera" isn't mentioned there at all. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:11, 5 October 2017 (UTC)


 * ... only Rigoletto and "the Traviata" melodram, - I removed the link, not sure it meant the opera --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

List of opera running times (website)
I found this website which estimates the running times of various operas (minus the various intermissions/intervals, which of course add extra time if it's a live performance), and it's pretty cool and helpful: http://www.theopera101.com/operas/runningtimes.html. -- Softlavender (talk) 01:48, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Madama Butterfly: new "Racism and Sexism Controversy" section
Someone added a new section and it wasn't encyclopedic. I've moved the new section to the talk page so experienced editors can decide what to do with it: Talk:Madama Butterfly. -- Softlavender (talk) 07:07, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Article needing eyes, help, etc.
Valerian Ruminski. Completely uncited. I just now took out a gigantic roles-resume. Softlavender (talk) 16:31, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems to be largely taken from here . And therefore eligible i think for flagging as a WP:COPYVIO.Smerus (talk) 17:54, 28 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Given the nature of the text, i.e. basically "laundry lists", it probably doesn't qualify for a full copyvio flag. But it needs copyediting. He's reasonably notable, sang 23 times at the Met, albeit in comprimario roles . I'll have a look at it later and maybe trim and add a couple of refs. His association with Matthias Manasi has not escaped my attention, but the Manasi sock zoo does not appear to be active at the Ruminski article. Voceditenore (talk) 07:48, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
 * In terms of the Matthias Manasi connection, I did indeed check into that, and this article appears totally unrelated. I ran into the Valerian Ruminski article because I was Googling info on Nickel City Opera (where Manasi is the brand-new music director as of this season) because of the sockfarm. When I saw that Ruminski, who is Nickel City Opera's founder and artistic director, had an uncited and rather messy wiki article, I looked into it and its edit-history closely -- but there really is no comparison or crossover. In fact, the Ruminski article has languished for more than 10 years -- it didn't even mention Nickel City Opera (I added that yesterday), and a massive 2,000-byte NPOV BLP-vio was allowed to stand for more than 2 years until an IP removed it. Needs some updating. Softlavender (talk) 08:02, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Softlavender, I assume you are referring to this as the BLP violation. It was in the sense that it was unreferenced and undue, but its substance was true and even made CBC News. See this article. Not that I'm suggesting it should go in the WP article. It was a bit of a teapot tempest, but it mightily pissed off Opera Lyra at the time. Voceditenore (talk) 08:56, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I noticed all that in my searches. If the article were fully fledged and completely updated and so on, it might pass UNDUE as a small mention that he was fired from Lyra because of an inappropriate Facebook post which was publicly protested. Softlavender (talk) 09:03, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I've been working on the article yesterday and today and I think it's now about as "fledged" as it's ever going to be. But I don't think it's appropriate to add this minor kerfuffle to the article. Even the CBC News article was for local Ottawa news, and it didn't seem to impact his career at all. He's since sung with several Canadian opera companies, although obviously not Opera Lyra which went bust a year after the episode. It's something one might put in a book-length biography of major singer, but not here, and not for a singer at this level. Voceditenore (talk) 11:34, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you ever so much for all of your work on the article. My only comment would be that the list of roles implies that those are all he has done, when clearly he has done a lot more; I think we should word it to that effect. One could also argue that the awards and the concert performances should be re-added if they are citable, but if no one wants to research those, that's the breaks. In terms of the incident, I totally agree it does not belong in an article of this length. Thanks again. Softlavender (talk) 19:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Cheryl Studer -- needs eyes, cleanup, help
Bloated and often uncited article written entirely by three SPAs (possible socks of each other). Noticed it as one of the SPAs tried to add it to the Rosenkavalier article. Any help trimming, cleaning up, citing, etc., would be appreciated. Softlavender (talk) 19:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

IP labeling items comic opera which may or may not be precisely that genre
Could people please check the edits of Special:Contributions/188.218.234.207? I'm concerned because some operas are comic operas without necessarily being of the genre comic opera. -- Softlavender (talk) 04:12, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I've gone through these. Btw the article comic opera is pretty poor and feebly sourced, and needs a rewrite.--Smerus (talk) 12:30, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Falstaff (opera)
See Talk:Falstaff (opera): several IPs edit-war to get "comic" in the genre, where the version that was made "featured" had simply "opera". I reverted twice. If it was a user, I'd talk to them. Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:56, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

I see now that I'm not the only one ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:57, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Solution
The anonymous user is IP-hopping, so the only way to stop this activity on any and all of the targeted articles is to request semi-protection at WP:RFPP, as I have done here for Gianni Schicchi:. -- Softlavender (talk) 02:17, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Fiora Contino
Hello, WikiProject Opera. An editor made his first edit to the Administrator's noticeboard, asking if we could create an article on his mother, who passed away in March 2017. As Fiora Contino was a notable female conductor, and yet we did not have an article on her, I have had a stab at starting it based on a quick google. However, I know nothing, whatsoever, of opera, and I was wondering if someone here would be so kind as to cast their eye over the article, and possibly improve it where they can; it would be nice to have a decent article for this person. Cheers, fish &amp;karate 13:05, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks to those who have helped! :) fish &amp;karate 08:26, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Template:Did you know nominations/Fiora Contino: any more details of what she conducted when and what reviewers thought? (When I started to review I had forgotten that I had seen this question, sorry.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:59, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Schubert's operas
I looked at them today, found a lot missing, and started with trying to get them in the composer's navbox. Continued on Classical music, and discussion there please, as far as the position in a navbox goes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:21, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

IP changing voice notation on a slew of articles.
Example. These may be correct but this stuff is all Greek to me. Could someone (paging Michael Bednarek) check Special:Contributions/81.129.155.27 and see what's what? Voceditenore (talk) 09:05, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Could just revert them all as both uncited and unexplained. Softlavender (talk) 09:26, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I noticed that, too, and I looked at about half a dozen of their edits. Invariably, they only changed the notation from, say "C4", to "C4", which is not a substantial improvement, but neither deserving of censure or revert. The examply you showed above at Tenore di grazia was a tad more than that, but still an improvement. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:47, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Michael! Voceditenore (talk) 07:55, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Disambiguation links on pages tagged by this wikiproject
Wikipedia has many thousands of wikilinks which point to disambiguation pages. It would be useful to readers if these links directed them to the specific pages of interest, rather than making them search through a list. Members of WikiProject Disambiguation have been working on this and the total number is now below 20,000 for the first time. Some of these links require specialist knowledge of the topics concerned and therefore it would be great if you could help in your area of expertise.

A list of the relevant links on pages which fall within the remit of this wikiproject can be found at http://69.142.160.183/~dispenser/cgi-bin/topic_points.py?banner=WikiProject_Opera

Please take a few minutes to help make these more useful to our readers.&mdash; Rod talk 17:46, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Examples for operatic templates
May I ask to reconsider Maritana as an example for an opera with infobox? How about Gianni Schicchi? And could an opera "without" please be not the only one with my name in the title? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:53, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * The first does not have one. If you want one on either, start an RfC. You've been told that quite a number of times, and this constant passive-aggression and passive-aggressive canvassing is getting tiresome. Softlavender (talk) 09:40, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


 * I know best that it doesn't have one. It was reverted, and the discussion amuses me every time I get there (if I am allowed to use the dirty word "amuse" again). - I would want one for the other, but with certain authors in the edit history, I would not want conflict, on top of not wanting to waste my time and nerves ;) - First thing in 2017, . That is still on top of my talk, but will get archived soon. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:19, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Yet here you are, discussing (and pleading passive-aggressively for) infoboxes. WP:RFCs are neither conflict nor wastes of time, but needling and canvassing and arguing are. Softlavender (talk) 10:57, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not pleading, nor discussing, only saying something about choice of examples once I read the updated project guidelines. I regret that I did. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:05, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * There are no "updated project guidelines". So now you are claiming that this thread has nothing to do with infoboxes? Softlavender (talk) 12:22, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * . --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:32, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I assume you mean to link to this, but that is not really an update (it is merely a clarification), and your OP very specifically requests (i.e., pleads for -- you used the word "please") infoboxes – clearly the only thing you are requesting since all three articles already have horizontal navboxes. Softlavender (talk) 12:44, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you could explain how a discussion like this is amusing to you. "A user recently added an infobox to this article, which I reverted per WP:BRD. I object to the addition of an infobox in this article, and the user who added the article has already driven many experienced editors from the Wikipedia project with this repeated and frankly nasty tactic, including User:Tim riley and User:Schrocat. I guess she wants to see more productive and experienced editors leave. I had hoped she was ashamed of herself and would stop, but here she is back with this nasty behavior."


 * Here's also what one of the editors who left said "Actually, Gerda, you and your fellow bullies did indeed sicken me so much as to drive me from the project. I look in occasionally now, but have no wish to contribute further. You and your gang have made it too unpleasant, with tactics from passive agression, to browbeating, to plain lying." The editor has recently returned-is it your intent to drive him and the other editors who left over the infobox conflicts away again? We hope (talk) 12:48, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


 * No. I talk about 2017 only. All I wanted to achieve in this thread is changing the example from Maritana to Gianni Schicchi, and if an editor feels driven away by that I can't help him. Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * The problems started long before this year and despite the 2013 date on the ARBCom case, are still running rampant. You appear to disregard the consensus at the article's TP, but it's hardly surprising.  If it's added and reverted, more squealing from this quarter will follow.  You have "peace" on your talk page, but this looks like something other than peace-disruption. We hope (talk) 13:39, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Gerda, it's clear what you were doing here. Maritana is not an example of an opera with an infobox, Rigoletto is. So you were passive-aggressively requesting an infobox for that article. And to top it off, you requested an infobox for Fennimore and Gerda as well. Softlavender (talk) 13:44, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you for pointing out that I simply misread. I apologize for drawing a wrong conclusion. - I said already that I regret I opened this thread. - I don't care about an infobox in Maritana and Fennimore and Gerda. I understood that the best way to have an infobox is to write/expand the article, such as Love's Labour's Lost. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:24, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * No, you didn't misread. You linked the article in your OP and stated that you knew well that it didn't have an infobox. Softlavender (talk) 14:44, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm going to close this discussion
The issue of examples has been clarified. The rest is an an unedifying spectacle. During the 2013 brouhaha editors on both sides of this issue nearly brought a highly productive and previously enjoyable project to its knees. When infobox opera was developed the consensus was that it is available as an option and that whether or not to include it and how much of it to include should be discussed on individual article talk pages if anyone objects. This project talk page is for planning collaborations, seeking help with sourcing and fact-checking, improving and finding good images, celebrating Rossini's birthday etc. It is not the place to
 * Relitigate Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes
 * Criticize other editors either as individuals or as a group,
 * Revisit old grudges, or create new ones by continually bickering and sniping at each other.

I'm going to close this discussion. Can I ask you all to please not re-open it. It's quite clear that a few editors still have fairly entrenched positions on this issue. This is unfortunate, but that's the way it is. You may find it inconvenient to slug it out article-by-article but that's the way it is too. Relentless and personalised attempts to continue rehashing this general issue here are sterile and destructive. I personally use infobox opera on all the articles I write and expand (in conjunction with navigation footers), and consider it highly preferable to the old vertical navboxes. But that is neither here nor there. The world is not going to come to an end if some articles do not have them and vice versa. So...


 * If you have a problem with other editors' behaviour, take it to their talk page, ANI, or Arbcom. This is not the place.


 * If you have a problem with an infobox on a particular article take it to the article's talk page, and at most leave a brief, neutral note here notifying the discussion(s) for editors who may wish to participate—minus personalised comments about who wants one or who doesn't. Voceditenore (talk) 16:56, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Article needing help: Zurab Sotkilava
Russian tenor (deceased). Needs citations, cleanup, fleshing out. (That is, if it passes notability.) Softlavender (talk) 09:09, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I tidied it up a bit, but it probably needs attention from someone who can read Russian. Interesting fellow. At first I thought the football player stuff was a mixture of articles about two different people. But... apparently not. Voceditenore (talk) 11:33, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Pavarotti wanted to be a professional football player as well ... but that didn't work out either. Oh well. At least this Russian guy had an actual go at it before smashing himself up. Softlavender (talk) 11:52, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Related article: composer Otar Taktakishvili
Georgian/Russian opera composer. Needs a little bit of help. Softlavender (talk) 09:36, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * How about making him Composer of the Month for January which might help? We also lack articles on his two most well-known operas Mindia and The Abduction of the Moon. Voceditenore (talk) 11:33, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * That might be a good idea, especially since the article has no citations at all at present. I took a semester of Russian in high school, but I can't even remember the Cyrillic alphabet anymore. Softlavender (talk) 11:56, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


 * He has an entire List of compositions by Otar Taktakishvili. -- Softlavender (talk)

Armanda Degli Abbati
Voceditenore, I am not sure about Armanda Degli Abbati vs. Armanda degli Abbati, - are you? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:45, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am sure. It's "Degli" in the Italian National library system . There is sometimes variation in upper and lower case for Italian surnames that include del, de, degli, etc. but the standard practice in modern Italian surnames (from the second half of the 19th century onwards) is upper case. Voceditenore (talk) 15:57, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:46, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Templates for discussion
A large number of opera-related templates have been proposed for deletion here. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:03, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Elisabeth of Wied and opera
I stumbled across something interesting while writing an article on Alfredo Costa. He had performed in an opera entitled Editha by composer Antonio Francesco Carbonieri. I had never heard of that composer and did a search out of curiosity. Apparently it was a pen name for Elisabeth of Wied who composed several operas under assumed names. Her wikipedia article has nothing on this currently. Anybody interested in updating her article can see this source for more information.4meter4 (talk) 20:06, 29 December 2017 (UTC)