Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 133

Julia Lezhneva
Julia Lezhneva: I just found her by searching for Litanies (Mozart), - not an encyclopedic article. Anybody for pruning? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:47, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah.. her Career section looks promotional - Jay (talk) 03:24, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The sources for this page where a mess, I cleaned up a bit. There have been a lot of promotional edits by IPs in the past, as well as contributions by user 'Boss & Chef', a single purpose account with an obvious conflict of interest. --OrestesLebt (talk) 09:13, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you, OrestesLebt. I have two (longish) things on my desk that come before, then will take another look. It's way too wordy, - who would ever read that, so it's not even good for her. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:16, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * She is in good hands then, Gerda Arendt, that is great! I'm currently going through the ca. 8000 Music Academy of the West alumni, I'll be busy for quite a while. --OrestesLebt (talk) 09:27, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi OrestesLebt and Gerda. I haven't got the time for a full makeover, but I have gone through it and removed a lot of the blatant and unreferenced puffery: "acclaimed", "triumphant" ,"standing ovations", etc. Plus, I've replaced multiple instances of "under the baton of" with "conducted by". It needs much more copyediting for encyclopedic style and/or idiomatic English. Orestes, if you are wondering about the COI of 'Boss & Chef', see  SMirC-smile.svg. Unsurprisingly, most of the SPA IPs resolve to Russia. Voceditenore (talk) 11:33, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much. We should have a bot for replacing "under the baton of" by "conducted by", seriously. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:50, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

In the U.S. February is Black History Month
February is Black History Month in the U.S. Any suggestions? - kosboot (talk) 02:15, 2 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Here are a few...
 * Nkeiru Okoye's opera Harriet Tubman: When I Crossed That Line to Freedom premiered 2014
 * Hilda Paredes's chamber opera Harriet Tubman (Paredes opera) premiered 2018
 * Samuel Coleridge-Taylor's opera  (currently a redirect), thought lost but found and premiered in 2012. There's fair bit about it in his article, but it could be separated out to a new article and... err... referenced properly.
 * Voceditenore (talk) 16:34, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * and...
 * John Thomas Douglass could use expansion
 * Imoinda is currently only about the libretto by Joan Anim-Addo which was apparently "performed" in 2008 (no composer named). It's very sketchy with poor referencing. A trilogy version of the libretto subtitled  A Story of Love and Slavery, composed by Odaline de la Martinez was premiered in 2019 . More about it here
 * Voceditenore (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * and...
 * Anthony Davis's X, The Life and Times of Malcolm X is little more than stub. The article on his Wakonda's Dream is a bit of a dog's dinner. There's no article for his Amistad, but here's a starter source
 * Shirley Graham Du Bois's Tom-Tom (opera). There's tons of stuff about it
 * Leroy Jenkins's Mother of Three Sons, more here
 * James P. Johnson's one-act opera De Organizer with a libretto by Langston Hughes, more here
 * Voceditenore (talk) 17:32, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Follow-up. I've made the following Operas of the Month for February:
 * Anthony Davis's Amistad
 * Shirley Graham Du Bois's Tom-Tom
 * Leroy Jenkins's Mother of Three Sons
 * James P. Johnson's De Organizer

For the February Composers of the Month, I've listed three Italians whose works were performed at La Scala in the 19th century. They are all red-linked but have articles on the Italian and/or German WPs. Voceditenore (talk) 09:39, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Ah, the joys of "Did You Know?"
No sooner had the lovely Carolina Crespi appeared on the front page when a vandal nominated her for speedy deletion as an attack page (along with dozens of other articles). He's blocked now. Onwards and upwards. Voceditenore (talk) 17:44, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Bootlegs and bootleggers
I've been told that "bootlegs" is the current preferred term for what we used to call "pirates." I had lunch with a long-time record collector and we were going over well-known and less-known bootleggers. In terms of opera, it seems to me this is a serious lacuna because these bootlegs sometimes had a significant impact on the opera world. I recall reading an article (by Alan Rich in New York Magazine, from the early 1970s) in which he claimed that Leyla Gencer's career was significantly boosted by bootlegs. He also suggested that a number of operas received revivals because of the existence of bootlegs. The problem is that because this stuff was underground it rarely received coverage. With the exception of that Rich article (which was exclusively about bootlegs), I can't recall much coverage of this aspect of opera except in the obituaries of the bootleggers themselves.

Here's some examples of the people and the labels involved:
 * Eddie J. Smith; labels: EJS, Top Classics, UORC, A.N.N.A.
 * Ed Rosen; labels: HRE, (others)
 * William Violi; lables: OASI

Then there were others whom I don't know the owners: BJF, Penzance, MRF, etc. Any thoughts on such an article (or articles)? - kosboot (talk) 19:57, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I assume this volume would have biographical information on Eddie J. Smith: https://www.amazon.com/EJS-Discography-Discographies-Association-Discographic/dp/0313278687 - kosboot (talk) 23:23, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Joan Sutherland
I confess I never looked at Joan Sutherland, thinking I heard and read enough, but now discovered a fat tag on top. Can we write it neutrally enough to get rid of that? - She will be mentioned on DYK in 3 days, on a collegue's 75th birthday. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:03, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Michael Bednarek solved that one! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:18, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Messa di Voce
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messa_di_voce This article is very incomplete--it mentions "messa di voce" only as an "advanced vocal technique" rather than as a standard way of singing, of articulating notes in baroque and classical music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.72.71.182 (talk) 22:03, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
 * What sources do you suggest we check for more information? - kosboot (talk) 01:21, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Humanitarian Cherry Blossoms
Comments are appreciated at this AFD. The article is an unsourced opera article. I have no idea if sources are available for this topic.4meter4 (talk) 02:44, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Happy Birthday, Gioachino!
Tutti ti vogliono, tutti ti chiedono!

Only every four years can we wish him happy birthday on his real birthday. Voceditenore (talk) 07:19, 29 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you! - I decorated my talk with today's featured picture, in fond memory of singing the greatest of his "old sins", matching yesterday's Alte Liebe (old love) nicely. - --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:58, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I think we are doing a good job!
Over 9000 views for Agrippina (opera) last Saturday when it was broadcast from the Met and shown live in HD in cinemas worldwide!!! Amazing! People turn to WP to help their enjoyment of operas they are going to see and hear. That is what got me involved as a WP editor some years ago, a lot of the Handel opera articles were very very poor, I could see that people were coming for information and their needs were not being met. Things are better now, thanks and hugs to my fellow collaborators on WikiProject Opera!Smeat75 (talk) 02:18, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Upcoming major productions, relays and broadcasts were a key part of how John Webber (aka Viva-Verdi) would schedule which articles he would work on, for this very reason. Sigh. Scarabocchio (talk) 06:07, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

historyofthetenor External links
I have noticed the recent addition of links to website historyofthetenor.com in the following list of contributions. Is anyone familiar with this website and able to comment on its notability (and indeed the suitability of linking to its singer profiles in the EL sections of multiple opera-related articles)? Thank you. Toccata quarta (talk) 18:14, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I looked at one or two of those links when they were added some time before the current flurry. The text there is a straight copy, or an excerpt, of the respective Wikipedia article, without attribution. The main part of those pages are sound recordings of unclear origin, and some lengthy musings by Alain Vanzo about the singer. I lost interest after a minute or so and never listened to the whole thing. I suspect there may be interesting morsels in there, but without transcription, I'm not going to spend time in finding them. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:33, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This is a fan site. The creator's son even says that his father was not one to credit sources.  Lots of copyrighted (or of questionable copyright) used.  I'd remove links. - kosboot (talk) 05:35, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

In 1989 my late father Sydney Barker created a unique survey to cover The History of The Tenor. 10 years ago I converted it from cassette tape to digital and created a website for it. It was over 2,500 minutes of content. The site categorizes all the great tenors of the 20th century. The information within is a treasure trove of knowledge on the subject and I was delighted to share it with the world. I personally do not follow Opera, the site is non-commercial, has no advertising or purchase options and only a simple feedback contact page. It was designed for academic and educational purposes for opera loves and to give the world a better understanding of the opera singers, developed purely as a unique encyclopedic tenor reference source. 10 years ago, I added many of the performers to Wikipedia. Recently I upgraded the website and the URL’s had changed and some additional artists had been added. So when completely updated I went back to each link to update and add those artists that were missed the first time around. This triggered an admin audit. My desire is to keep the links updated and add value to the subject and content of the program. There is no personal gain from this site – it is purely informational. It has remained the same format for over 10 years. I have had many feedback emails thanking me for making the site for Opera lovers, none that have been negative. I ask for the current links to be updated so users can go to the new updated URL instead of a dead link and that the information within can be kept updated. I thank the community for the time taken to review. I am a sensitive to the importance of the quality data the program provides and only wish to abide by the rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerrybarker (talk • contribs) 20:51, 8 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi Jerrybarker. I know this will be disappointing for you, but there are a couple of reasons why having these links (whether updated or not) is very problematic in terms of Wikipedia's guidelines on external links. First of all, we are not allowed to link to copyright violations. I had a look at the Pavarotti section on your father's site and the sound files all appear to be copyright violations from recordings still in copyright. Note that unless a recording was published before 1 January 1925, it will almost certainly still be in copyright.  Secondly, to avoid articles becoming a "link farm", an added external link has to contain unique text and information which is not already available in the article, and generally speaking that information needs to be from a reliable authoritative source, not personal opinions. Having said that, I did listen to the track of Pavarotti singing  "Pour me rapprocher" on your father's site and wept at the sheer beauty of a voice now stilled. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 10:44, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Puzzle
This tells me that Anatoli Mokrenko recorded the role Harald in an opera by a composer whose name begins with "Ma". I don't have access to the previous page. Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:56, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I found "Maiboroda G.:Yaroslav Mudri - Stepan Turchak / Opera Kiev Theatre - in cirillico 3,0 melodiya C10 17729/34" on page 7 of this pdf, from a search for the record's catalog number. I think it is Yaroslav Mudriy by Heorhiy Maiboroda. --OrestesLebt (talk) 10:35, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I have for my sins seen this awful opera and written a WP article about it - Yaroslav Mudriy. I have the singer's name as 'Mokryenko'. --Smerus (talk) 10:54, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you both, helped, and amused ;) - There could be ten redirects for that singer's name, - I took from recent deaths. - I have no idea what the Ukrainian article and its sources say, - more help welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:59, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Carla Maffioletti
Just discovered this unreferenced blp. Not sure if she would pass WP:N.4meter4 (talk) 22:46, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

RILM abstracts & encyclopedias available until 31 May
An email from the head of RILM:

As the impact from COVID-19 grows daily, affecting libraries, teachers, students, and other music researchers, RILM is offering temporary access for non-subscribing institutions to the following full-text resources until 31 May 2020:
 * RILM Music Encyclopedias - a virtual reference shelf of 57 encyclopedias
 * MGG Online - the digital music encyclopedia

To receive institutional access to RILM Music Encyclopedias and MGG Online on Egret, the RILM platform, please email subscriptions -at- rilm.org. This offer is for institutions. Individuals interested in these resources are encouraged to get in touch with their nearest library, which can register for this offer. All RILM resources are available for unlimited use by authorized users and can be accessed remotely.''

RILM Music Encyclopedias includes a fully-digitized version of Kutsch/Riemens Großes Sängerlexikon which, although it has errors, still is a great source of information. And if you don't read German, simply copy the text and paste into Google Translate. -- kosboot (talk) 22:54, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Afd: Dorothea Nicolai, german costume designer
Discussion is at Articles_for_deletion/Dorothea_Nicolai. --OrestesLebt (talk) 17:35, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Commented, but her problem is that isn't really a designer, but director, responsible for the actual production of what (normally) others design. More input there wanted. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:28, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

The Makropulos Affair starring Karita Mattila -- film streaming free now
If this note reaches anyone in time, check this out. It's streaming, filmed live, for free, starring Karita Matilla, for the next 10 hours, at https://sfopera.com/opera-is-on/streaming/#streaming. -- Softlavender (talk) 09:19, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks SL!!--Smerus (talk) 09:29, 26 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I miscalculated; it's still available until 11:59 p.m. PDT tonight (Sunday), which is 7:59 a.m. BST (Monday). Pinging . So that's 8.5 more hours. It's a two-hour opera, so need to start watching within the next 6.5 hours. Softlavender (talk) 22:32, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Saw it, and we greatly enjoyed it. Many thanks!--Smerus (talk) 10:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

character tenor and Gösta Winbergh problems
We also don't have an article on character tenor. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:24, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

also: please watch Gösta Winbergh for a fan adding unsourced pov. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:50, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

now added a third time, - while I explained on their talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:57, 7 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Gerda, Tenor covers that type of tenor. Perhaps just create Character tenor as a redirect to that section. We also have a very scant section under Fach, but it's not terribly useful.


 * As for the overly-enthusiastic Gösta Winbergh fan. I've also reverted and left a note on his talk page reiterating your advice. I'll keep it on watch and perhaps one or two other members could as well. Cripes, he just reverted me too as I was writing this. He's getting a 3RR warning from me now. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:02, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
 * well, to my understanding, character tenor is rather for the bad guys who may have a rusty voice, but a redirect would be a start. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:25, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Teatro del Maggio Musicale Fiorentino
enWP doesn't seem to have an article on the main opera house in Firenze, used for the majority of all opera performances in the season and in the festival since 2014. Teatro del Maggio Musicale Fiorentino.

The gnome called Scarabocchio (talk) 14:08, 3 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Scarabocchio, itWP doesn't have an article at the link you gave. It's at it:Opera di Firenze, but you're right, we don't have one here under either title. Someone should get cracking. SMirC-smile.svg Voceditenore (talk) 13:41, 7 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The building was known as the 'Opera di Firenze' for a year or two after opening (as far as I remember), but that name seems to have been superceded(?). If I had any time for WP, it would be a push to finish the Batignano article which has been mostly sourced but rotting in my in-tray for a decade. (Shame me into finishing it!  :-)   Scarabocchio (talk) 16:46, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Roles table
The RfC at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility will most likely end with a recommendation that all tables should have captions (see also MOS:DTAB and MOS:TABLECAPTION). This has implications for almost all articles on operas that contain a table of roles as recommended in the project's style guide. I copied this note for further discussion to WikiProject Opera/Article styles and formats. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:56, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

RfC relating to MusicBrainz at WP:VPT
Now launched at WP:VPT. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:34, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Georgii Nelepp
I was wondering if anyone from WP:OPERA would mind taking a look at this article. There seem to be a number of issues (WP:PUFFERY, questionable referencing, excessive external linking, etc.) that may need addressing. I came across the article via WP:THQ and noticed that there are quite a number of links to YouTube being cited as references. This is not automatically a bad thing per se, except in this case the links are actually more external links formatted as citations than actual citations to reliable sources and many of them are not really OK regardless per WP:ELNEVER. So, I asked, who's quite experienced in dealing with external links, about this and he pointed out quite a number of other issues with the article as well. I'm not very familiar with opera or opera singers and while I can work on cleaning up the links, etc., it would probably be better if someone more familiar with the subject matter took a crack at re-writing anything that needs to be rewritten or some of the other cleanup. So, any feedback or suggestions on how to best proceed would be most appreciated. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:59, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi Marchjuly. I had a look at the article. It definitely needs work. It needs copy-editing for encyclopedic/neutral tone and the references are dubious and inappropriate in some instances. But on the whole, it's basically sound, and the singer is quite notable. Over the next week, I can nip in and do some clean-up, but other members, feel free to have a go at it in the meantime. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 08:33, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking a look at this. FWIW, I wasn't implying that the subject wasn't Wikipedia notable; I just wasn't sure how to best go about cleaning it up. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:22, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi Marchjuly. I've whacked it more or less into shape. It could probably use more refinement, but the most glaring problems are gone—lengthy personal commentary (both in-text and in footnotes), ELs of dubious copyright status crammed into refs, citations to Amazon customer reviews and internet forums, badly formatted remaining refs etc. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:09, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Sad News
Longtime Wikipedian contributor who is a part of this WikiProject, User:Meladina (and later went by User:Dmitrismirnov), died from complications after contracting COVID-19. His Wikipedia page, Dmitri Smirov, has been updated to reflect his unfortunate passing. Deep sympathies to his family and friends who have lost a great person. FunksBrother (talk) 18:25, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I updated, truly impressed. I'd have little time to dig into this work of a fan, Draft:Andrzej Filończyk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:00, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

The Devil in Love (opera)
In the context: The Devil in Love (opera) is one of the articles Smirnov began (then User:Meladina). He also took a pic of its composer, Alexander Vustin, who also recently died, possibly also from COVID19 (official Russian says pneunomia). When I began expanding the opera, I found that - while the articles still said it wasn't performed yet - it was actually premiered last year, in Moscow. While the article said 3 acts, the production made it 2. Help wanted - as I don't read Russian: roles and performers? Review? Possibly articles on librettist and book author in Russian? How much plot should we take from the book, where I see pages 213 and 214, but miss some before and after. Same question for characteristic instruments mentioned there? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:22, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Brian's Monteverdi
In memory of Brian Boulton, I nominated "his" Monteverdi for TFA on his birthday, with good success in terms of views. Aza24 proposed to make his operas a featured topic, - thoughts? The same day, the Main page had more operatic links, Hans Herbert Jöris, with an opera and a theatre, Franz Klarwein with a theatre and two operas, and Gabriel Bacquier, to connect to the header. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:11, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Neil Shicoff
Some attention to this article is needed. It’s a blp with hardly any referencing, and the article has some unflattering comments of both a professional and personal nature that would be fine if sourced but they are not. There is also some mention on the talk page of copy pasting problems which I am not sure if they were ever addressed. Best.4meter4 (talk) 23:30, 28 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi 4meter4. I'll have a bash at the article tomorrow. The "unflattering" stuff (nervous breakdown, messy divorce, custody battles, getting passed over for head of the Vienna Staatsoper, etc.) can all be referenced to reliable sources and he's quite open about it all as well. I think the copypaste comment on the talk page refers to this page and I'm pretty sure its a case of reverse copyvio. The last section of the article is a complete dogs dinner. "Recent performances"? When? There are no dates, no references, and they almost surely are from 10 to 15 years ago. He's retired now and a voice teacher. That section is also full of puffery, UGH! It was added in 2011 by an IP from Austria where Shicoff was mostly hanging out at the time. Hmmm. Why does that not surprise me. Voceditenore (talk) 17:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you!4meter4 (talk) 15:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Update. It's now reasonably referenced with inline citations, has a more coherent narrative, and is largely de-pufferized. I've removed the tag. The article could use improvement, but I'll leave that to someone else—I much prefer writing about 19th-century folk. Voceditenore (talk) 16:33, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Opera (performing arts magazine)
Oh dear. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Opera_(magazine)&redirect=no

Scarabocchio (talk) 08:22, 12 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Presumably to differentiate it from Opera (manga magazine) "that publishes yaoi (male-male romance; also known as boys' love or BL) manga". --Smerus (talk) 08:32, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe the word opera should have a disambiguation page? Somehow I find it hard to believe that people will find the article on the London-based periodical with that article title. - kosboot (talk) 12:12, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I would suggest re-moving it to Opera (opera magazine) since it is not about the performing arts, only opera. The present title is therefore incorrect and misleading. --Smerus (talk) 13:27, 12 June 2020 (UTC).
 * It's a stupid consequence of the former rule that disallowed incomplete disambiguation; see WP:PDABPRIMARY. Previously, Thriller (album) could not be the name for the article on Michael Jackson's album because there were other albums with that title. It seems the new guidelines are not well understood. In this case is doubly stupid because the old name for the opera magazine,, still exists as a REDIRECT to Opera (performing arts magazine). There is no point to the article's recent move, but Smerus' suggestions might be a way out. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Or the Falstaff ploy : Falstaff (opera) and Falstaff (Salieri) are both operas, but the suffix '(opera)' is given only to the most obvious/ popular match. Thus: Opera (magazine) and Opera (manga)? Just an idea. Scarabocchio (talk) 13:41, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Could be in dangerous territory there as both articles seem to have rather low viewing figures--Smerus (talk) 20:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Readership numbers are IMO a minor part in determining a primary subject. Incoming links are overwhelming: Manga: eight to real Opera 394 + 39 from . I agree that Opera (opera magazine) would be a more appropriate name, or it could just be moved back to . -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:18, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

moved back to Opera (magazine) – which is where it should be if a WP:RM is held to move it elsewhere. I don't think such RM is necessary, for the current applicable guidance at WP:PDABPRIMARY, but the page should not be moved to a rather extraneous title (I mean, with an extraneous three-word disambiguator), nor anywhere else, without RM. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:30, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Francis. If anyone launches a WP:RM I will support the status quo as you have restored it.--Smerus (talk) 09:58, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, I created Opera (manga magazine). I'm fine with this decision, and don't plan to contest it at WP:RM. Morgan695 (talk) 18:35, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

The Opera Corpus
The Opera Corpus (and a couple of alternate capitalisations) which all target List of operas by composer have been nominated at RfD. Input from members of this project (which uses the redirect on the main project page) would be useful - please leave comments at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 10 to keep discussion in one place. Thryduulf (talk) 21:48, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Richard Tucker
Richard Tucker was moved to Richard Tucker (tenor). I believe he is the primary topic. What do others think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:50, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It'll be him or the actor, and it's hard to say which. I suppose it's an argument about which has the more enduring legacy. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.5% of all FPs 21:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Until today, it was him, and what changed? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:02, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * From what I've seen, the original article should stay and subsequent articles should have qualifiers. Is there a codified rule you could show to the editor?  Otherwise I don't think it's worth arguing about. - kosboot (talk) 01:15, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I talked to the mover, and we agreed that it should be discussed before any further action. I start here, instead of a WP:RM to move it back. If I'm the only one to think that it should be simply Richard Tucker, such as Maria Callas, not Maria Callas (soprano), we can leave it as it is. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:36, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It's silly to just redirect from Richard Tucker to Richard Tucker (tenor). That's the worst possible situation. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.5% of all FPs 18:08, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It's better than redirecting to the disambiguation page, as it was. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:43, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I'm following, it pointless to have "Richard Tucker" as "Richard Tucker (tenor)" if "Richard Tucker" redirects there already...? It either needs to redirect to a disambiguation page or be moved back. I would suggest moving back. Aza24 (talk) 19:50, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you mean by "already". It was Richard Tucker until yesterday, when a dab was created, Richard Tucker (disambiguation), and the name alone redirected there. Which was worse, because plenty of links went to the dab instead of to the singer. Needless to say, I also prefer to have it as it was. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:04, 27 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I've posted a request to revert the undiscussed move, at WP:Requested moves/Technical requests. -- Softlavender (talk) 14:58, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It's been moved back now. Softlavender (talk) 08:55, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Bravo. - kosboot (talk) 13:23, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Dragana Radakovic
I tried to help the editor of Dragana Radakovic but we seem to speak different languages. Help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:34, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Made a copy-edit pass. References should be reformatted with templates but I cannot do that with one finger. Jmar67 (talk) 12:26, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Mady Mesplé
A great singer died, Mady Mesplé, the Lakmé of her time, stratospheric coloratura, chose by Boulez for performances of Schoenberg. I would like to see her mentioned on the Main page, - a closer match of references and facts is desirable. Unfortunately, her page in Großes Sängerlexikon is not visible online to me. Anybody? Good obit in French, - not my language. Anybody? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:48, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Try DeepL when you need translations into/from the core European languages. Scarabocchio (talk) 13:46, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Deepl is what I use, but this was that only some pages of GSL are online, and I don't have the book. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:48, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Lots of discographies badly out of date
I have tried to keep the "recordings" sections or articles updated as the years have gone along on Handel, Verdi, Meyerbeer and Offenbach operas. In the last few days I have been updating Rossini and Bellini opera recordings and am rather shocked that no one seems to have done so for about five years. Next I will do what I can with Donizetti operas. I haven't even looked at Puccini, Mozart, R Strauss, Wagner recording sections and am unlikely to do so. Badly needs people to try to keep discographies up to date. Or maybe we shouldn't pretend that they are comprehensive and mark them all "selected recordings"? Because from what I can tell many many of them are not really discographies in the sense of complete lists of available recordings at all.Smeat75 (talk) 00:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Bacchus (opera)
What d'ye think of these? https://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engine/search/sru?operation=searchRetrieve&version=1.2&startRecord=0&maximumRecords=15&page=1&query=%28gallica%20all%20%22bacchus%20massenet%22%29&filter=dc.type%20all%20%22image%22

Each of them has a ton of options, so we'd need to choose which we'd want, and it WOULD be nice to have a plot summary of Bacchus before we added a set design gallery, but... well, worth mentioning. Also, there's some nifty surviving costume bits, of which this is probably the most impressive (and the BnF's release of the photos into public domain is nice) Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.2% of all FPs 16:28, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

La bohème
Quite happy with the new image I found for the opera. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.2% of all FPs 20:42, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Lovely quartet. Would you also find one for Poppea (above)? ... because the marble statue doesn't suggest 17th century. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:58, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll try,but Italian sources tend to be locked down a bit, so I'm going to need a little luck. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.2% of all FPs 21:27, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Kind of getting nothing for it. I did find a source that stated the opera had "standard baroque sets" or something like that, which makes me wonder if the sets were reused over many operas, and hence not generally recorded. I could possibly do the libretto title page? http://www.bibliotecamusica.it/cmbm/viewschedatwbca.asp?path=/cmbm/images/ripro/libretti/06/Lo06588/ - That seems the best I can find at present. http://www.bnnonline.it/index.php?it/196/nuove-accessioni/354/lincoronazione-di-poppea might be a secondary option. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.2% of all FPs 22:01, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Good idea, libretto title page! Almost anything to differentiate it from the Roman subject. Face opposition, though. The article is legacy of the great Brian Boulton, whose birthday we reflect today. See above, some watch over the article. I changed image placement to make the title character "look in", - reverted. Aza24 added a few parameters to the infobox ... - I imagine Brian would find words to heal. Aza had the idea to make Monteverdi's operas a featured topic, and we're getting closer, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * File:Title page of the 1656 libretto of L'incoronazione di Poppea.jpg Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.2% of all FPs 19:58, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I created a restored version of it some years ago: c:File:Claudio Monteverdi - L’incoronazione di Poppea - title page of the libretto - Venice 1656.png. --Rodomonte (talk) 20:43, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Little too photocopy-looking for my taste, given the plain white background. That the Library of Congress copy? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.2% of all FPs 20:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No, bibliotecamusica.it. I just don't like the brown background of these simple scans. I don't think, the printers used brown paper at that time. It just comes from the age and from the scanning process. The wrong color also distracts from the content. So I always remove it carefully. --Rodomonte (talk) 20:50, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know. If the point is to look 17th century, removing too much background isn't going to help with that, and, well, given photocopiers tend to look like that, I think it's great for reprinting, not so great as an illustration. But, y'know, differing opinions are fine. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.2% of all FPs 21:25, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

List of operettas restored
Just want to let this project know that I have restored List of operettas as an article/list. Please see the respective edit for the explanation. Members of this project are encouraged to edit/update the page. Steel1943 (talk) 21:45, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Porgy and Bess
Since there have been tens of thousands of productions of Porgy and Bess and only 9 are included in the performance history section, I will leave it to the experts here to evaluate whether the 2019-2020 production that I watched on PBS last night belongs in that section. I started researching it myself and realized that it was produced at the English National Opera, Dutch National Opera and Metropolitan Opera (and maybe other subsequent venues). A Met performance was filmed and aired. Although it is considered a tour of a production, it seems that each country has a different cast. There is sufficient PD content from WP:RS to write about the Met performance, but as part of a tour, with varying casts, I am not sure if it rises to the proper level of significance/notability to deserve to be the tenth section of the performance history. I am not able to source the English and Dutch productions very well. If you have an opinion on whether it belongs, please add a subsection or at least comment here.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:46, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Wasn't the PBS broadcast the production staged by the Metropolitan Opera which is mentioned in the last sentence of the second paragraph at Porgy and Bess? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:02, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Particularly nowadays, many productions of opera are "shared" (not "toured") between companies since the costs are so prohibitive. I feel that "tour" is not an accurate description of these productions. (Although I have heard from more than one source that many African American choristers make their living going from one production to another because of the stipulation for all-Black casts.) - kosboot (talk) 12:05, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , The Porgy and Bess content is not so useful: 1.) Anyone looking for 2018-2020 content in the TOC is not even going to see that because it seems to be chronoligically presented. 2.) One ref is dead and the other fails to link this production in a way that makes it a clear whether it is a revival or a newly-tweaked production bearing the same name. 3.) It makes it seem as if the London production just transferred to the Met when, it was recast twice before getting to the Met and some of the later encore performances at the Met had new casts or at least significant stand ins. 4.) This section never mentions the Dutch production and its only live source mentions a Washington National Opera run (in May), that was cancelled due to the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States. Does the schedule have later dates? 5.) It seems to me that a separate subsection should address this shared/toured production.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:24, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I can't see anything wrong with extending the article with more details about this production. This would probably mean that considerable parts of "Performance history" have to be reordered. The section "Subsequent productions" is an unsatisfactory hodge-podge now. But this should probably be discussed at Talk:Porgy and Bess. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:09, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I am not equipped to make sense of the unsatisfactory hodge-podge of "Subsequent productions" or even iron out the shared tour with 3 actual and at least 4 scheduled runs of the 2019-20 revival. I will go there and point out what I know and leave it for others. Thanks for at least helping me to find its current presentation in the unsatisfactory hodge-podge.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:10, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Bacchus (opera)
Would any Francophones be up to ading a plot summary? The original program with plot summary is available, and https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8405793p.r=Bacchus%20Massenet?rk=107296;4 might help add some information as well.

If it goes well, there's a near-complete set of set designs that could bulk out the article nicely. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.3% of all FPs 08:47, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

About time...
Just updated our FP list at the top of the page. I'm not sure if I missed any in the gap, but I'm glad to see some movement on that again, and with La bohème, Les Huguenots, and Gismonda up for voting right now, we should see it move a lot more in the next week or so. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.3% of all FPs 17:12, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Any requests, by the way? I have some gaps in availability - French operas are generally the easiest to get hold of since the BnF has control of the libraries of multiple Paris opera houses, and puts them online - but I'll do my best. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.3% of all FPs 23:59, 17 July 2020 (UTC) In the meantime....

to upload: ::*
 * 

Victor Capoul
For some reason an editor has recently demanded that this article be expanded using the French article, placing one of those notes at the top. The English one has a decent amount of text, a photo and six references; the French has slightly more text, two photos and no references but one very old French source. Can we just delete this box at the top and go back to what was a helpful and quite harmless article? Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:06, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you're definitely in the right here. At Translation it says requesting a translation is appropriate if "a translation would be useful because the article in the foreign language is of higher quality, or includes additional information". The sourcing issues of the French article alone are enough to disqualify it as "higher quality" imo. That being said, the English article could do with a couple more refs for some of those unsourced sentences, but either way it's still more thorough than the French article in that regard. Aza24 (talk) 22:45, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this reply and the edits by Michael Bednarek, I'll bear in mind in future. Sorry to make a fuss but it is so annoying when people do this to an article where there's nothing much wrong - why don't they just make the improvement themselves, instead putting the note at the top expecting others to do the work?! Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:02, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Melbourne Opera
There's a discussion going on at Talk:Melbourne Opera between myself and another contributor about whether the article should note that Melbourne Opera is semi-professional, as it is commonly described in independent references given its chorus is unpaid/amateur (and, although I don't have knowledge, may have other volunteer positions). Feel free to chime in. Boneymau (talk) 04:04, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Poppea
In the effort to make Monteverdi's operas a featured topic, Aza24. See L'incoronazione di Poppea and talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Featured topic candidates/Operas by Claudio Monteverdi/archive1, review welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:51, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Monteverdi's operas are now a featured topic! ... on the day 10 years after both Brian and I were declared awesome ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:22, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Fashion, September 21—October 11
I was just informed that there's a campaign Wiki Loves Fashion set up by WikiDonne, a group of women from Italy. Perhaps it might be an opportune time to create and enhance articles on costume designers. - kosboot (talk) 01:41, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Today's featured list 21 August 2020
in memory of Brian Boulton. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:51, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Mathis der Maler
Mathis der Maler is an opera by Hindemith. Mathis der Maler redirects now (that I made it so) to Mathis der Maler (opera), so far it redirected to Symphony: Mathis der Maler, a composition related to the opera. That probably has some historic reason. What I'd prefer is
 * Mathis der Maler - the opera, primary topic
 * Mathis der Maler (opera) - redirect to it.

Discuss, please. Mathis der Maler could also be a redirect to Matthias Grünewald, the title role, but why. Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:58, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Looking closer: the reason may be that the symphony came first, but I looked at the links: all but two meant the opera. (Please check, I make mistakes.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:11, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you're in the right with redirecting to the Opera, it does seem to certainly be more visited by page views. I would be hesitant renaming the article to simply "Mathis der Maler" since the symphony is pretty important to Hindemith by itself. Aza24 (talk) 21:30, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * While I see your point, I think of other (future) editors who think Mathis der Maler is enough, like I did. There seem to be more links to the simple name than the piped link with (opera). Why not make it easier for them? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:25, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I'm not really strongly opinionated either way, I'd say go for it. Aza24 (talk) 04:25, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Didn't P. D. Q. Bach write an opera "Mahler der Mathis" :-)?--Smerus (talk) 08:14, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Not according to our article ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:49, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmmm it does make one wonder how P. D. Q. Bach wrote "Mahler der Mathis" a century before Mahler was even born... I guess Palestrina isn't the one guy with an opera - Aza24 (talk) 09:13, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
 * When you consider the dates of P D Q Bach (1807–1742?), anything is possible.--Smerus (talk) 11:31, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
 * P. P. Bach composed Cactus tragicus, according to our article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:43, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Navigation boxes
There is a discussion on this topic at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers to which contributions are most cordially invited from readers of this page.  Tim riley  talk   09:12, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Meyerbeer infobox
Should we lose the infoboxes? I just discovered they're being stripped in the mobile version, eating up images. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.5% of all FPs 00:52, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * As you've been told there, they aren't infoboxes but sidebar templates, hence the stripping problem. Johnbod (talk) 01:05, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * As he's been told where? What are you referring to?Smeat75 (talk) 01:36, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * When I mentioned that images were being removed because they were used in the sidebar (if you prefer) on the Village Pump. Johnbod hasn't seen our endless discussions about such sidebars. I like their navigational ability, but if they're going to be only there on SOME versions of the page, it's all pretty awkward, since it means the lead image is going to get removed in a lot of cases. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.5% of all FPs 04:11, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Adam, if you look at the page views by platform for opera articles, approximately half of them are on mobile phones. Thus, half the visitors to any article with the old vertical navbox will see neither it, nor the image embedded in it. Compare vs. . The old vertical navbox is still used in some, but fortunately not most, opera articles. I assume you've seen the current discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Composers? There is at least one editor who strenuously opposes deprecating them, especially for all Handel and Meyerbeer articles. The tone suggests that achieving a consensus to deprecate vertical boxes in general would be unpleasant and probably futile. However, it might be worth starting a talk page discussion on some of the other individual opera articles which still carry these old vertical navboxes to propose taking the image out of the navbox and placing it separately above the box, or even better removing the box completely. The articles all have footer navboxes, so the navigation won't be lost to those viewing the desktop version. Voceditenore (talk) 12:47, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Lots of opera templates nominated for deletion
See here for some of them, for example: WP:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 September 28. --Softlavender (talk) 14:50, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This connects to two discussions a bit further up, about the lack of merit in redundant templates that half of our users will not see. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:01, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Ambiguity in categories
The native traditional art form is not a sub-genre of opera. The category of "Taiwanese opera singers" should be about opera singers of Taiwanese nationality, not about "singers that perform in Taiwanese opera" as it was. I've just moved all the pages to the new category of "Singers of Taiwanese opera".

The category of "Chinese opera singers" has the same issue, except that it contains a category called "Chinese contemporary classical opera singers", which should be the intended aim of the category. Seanetienne (talk) 10:29, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Covid fan tutte -- watchable free online, English subtitles
Finnish National Opera's Covid fan tutte, starring Karita Mattila, is now available free online with English subtitles. I've watched 11 minutes so far and it's hilarious. Recommended. Softlavender (talk) 12:27, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Brilliant! I hope you're doing a WP article on this production SL!--Smerus (talk) 15:33, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It seems to pass GNG, etc. I'm not sure that I have the time right now, so anyone can start an article on it. Even the librettist has an article on EN-wiki: Minna Lindgren. Of course Karita and Esa-Pekka do as well; I haven't checked the other singers/actors/dancer. -- Softlavender (talk) 23:53, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, baritone Tommi Hakala has an article on EN-wiki, and Waltteri Torikka has a redirect on EN-wiki. All of the other principals have articles on FI-wiki (excepting the dancer Natasha Lommi, who played the Covid Virus). Softlavender (talk) 00:58, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Brilliant +1. This reminds me a lot of ¡Figaro! (90210) (NYT review, YouTube channel), although the forces in Helsinki are superior. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:27, 6 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I've started a draft page, so we all can contribute to it and build it up until it warrants posting live: Draft:Covid fan tutte. I'm not sure how much I'll be able to contribute at present, so please go ahead and fill it out! On the talkpage I've started a place to list potential sources. Plus if anyone has access to Opera magazine, it's their cover story for November 2020: ; . Please everyone join in! Thanks, Softlavender (talk) 04:18, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Moved it to mainspace: Covid fan tutte. Please add more stuff. Especially if you have access to Opera magazine. -- Softlavender (talk) 07:18, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Gabrielle Ray
I am right in thinking that - although her image is from the Ricordi archive and quite worth doing - she has no real connection to opera so her photograph shouldn't be added into the Portal, nor the Opera FP rotation at the top of this page? Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 22:39, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Beautiful woman and a beautiful restoration, Adam. But the connection is probably too tenuous. However, I'll put my thinking cap on SMirC-smile.svg. Voceditenore (talk) 13:19, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I have to admit to wondering what connection she had to Ricordi. It feels like there's a story there. But, y'know. I do plenty of things that aren't Opera Wikiproject. It doesn't mean Ricordi's contribution is less valuable to Wikipedia just because it's not exactly opera. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 20:20, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Alexander Alexeev (conductor)
Alexander Alexeev (conductor) - this conductor died, and I can't find much, which comes as a surprise for someone who worked with the composer on a production of Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District (opera) as the article says without a reference. It doesn't help that at least a double bass player, a tenor and a physicist come by the same name, and his worldcat entry is under Aleksandr Alekseev. Help, - anybody reading Russian? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:57, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, I used a translator for the Russian, and the key message is "The information about the farewell will be posted additionally." Let's watch out for that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:00, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Article section order guidelines
Discussion here. Voceditenore (talk) 09:46, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Maddalena Mariani Masi
I don't normally do articles much, but an opera singer who created a lead role of an opera still performed, and didn't have an article seemed odd. If anyone wants to expand more, feel free. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 02:03, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

== File:Maria Carrara Verdi, Barberina Strepponi, Giuseppe Verdi, Giuditta Ricordi, Teresa Stolz, Umberto Campanari, Giulio Ricordi, Leopoldo Metlicovitz (1900) - Archivio storico Ricordi FOTO003107 - Restoration.jpg ==

I've put this in various relevant articles, but I'd appreciate if people would check my work. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 02:19, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It's good work, but on Commons, restorations should be uploaded as new files, and not overwrite the originals. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:52, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It didn't overwrite the original. I did, however, usurp a crop of the original, which, y'know, seemed sensible enough. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 02:37, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Apologies; I mis-read the file history. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Easily done. If the file had been older, I'd probably have kept the crop, but... y'know. Overwriting a recent crop is different. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.6% of all FPs 09:53, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Academy of Vocal Arts
The article on this prestigious opera school in Philadelphia was just deleted without an AFD as promotional by. I created that article as a stub years ago, at which time it was not self-promotional. I haven’t looked at it in some time, so I cannot comment on the state it was in at the time of its recent deletion. Considering the school has many famous alumni, such as Joyce DiDonato, it’s a sad loss for our content area.4meter4 (talk) 00:20, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * That ping to User:Seraphimblade in your post is unlikely to have worked. That's why I fixed it here. Alternatively, you can contact Seraphimblade on his talk page. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:00, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , you did not create that article, did that. I rechecked the edits after your edits to the article, and they were inappropriately promotional: a prominent member of Philadelphia society ("prominent" is puff), where talented singers could receive highest quality training ("talented" and "highest quality" according to what reliable and independent reference?), For more than six decades, gifted singers have come from throughout the world to seek the exceptional guidance ("gifted" and "exceptional" according to what reliable and independent reference?). That is totally inappropriate promotional content; articles must be written neutrally and never "talk up" anyone or anything or use peacock terms. If you think you can write it appropriately with your experience now, I'd be willing to draftify and stub it, but "prominent", "talented", "highest quality", "gifted", "exceptional", etc., will need to stay right out of it. Seraphimblade Talk to me 04:30, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * To delete the article seems like very extreme overkill. AVA is a well-known organization.  All you had to do User:Seraphimblade is alert the project to the issue and I'm sure a number of us would make the adjustments.  Can you undelete the article so we can start working on it? - kosboot (talk) 11:09, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Even an article which meets the speedy deletion criterion G11 ("Unambiguous advertising or promotion") should not be deletd, if there is an earlier, non-promotional version to which it can be reverted. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:02, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
 * That is correct, if that had been the case. It wasn't. However, the article is now at Draft:Academy of Vocal Arts, since there is a great deal of interest in fixing it. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:15, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

AfD
Articles for deletion/Marjon Lambriks --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:24, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * kept, thanks! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:GroveMusic
Template:GroveMusic has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page.
 * Apparently one of mine, though I don't remember writing it (in 2014). Anyone have any input on this?  Scarabocchio (talk) 20:16, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Rosl Zapf
Rosl Zapf's articles says that she appeared in Henze first staged works, but I can't find a source, - help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:09, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Capitalisation in titles of French operas
See current discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/France and French-related articles. Please discuss there, not here. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Ref wanted
... for the fact "In the 1965/66 season, Rosl Zapf appeared in the first staged performance of the radio operas Das Ende einer Welt (as Marchesa) and Ein Landarzt (as the Mother) by Hans Werner Henze at the Oper Frankfurt". The Henze site doesn't have performers only date of premiere as a double bill on 30 November 1965, - "Besetzung" only has the roles, not the performers. It was the time when Solti was GMD a conductor, but Rennert concucted this one. There are two singers named in our Landarzt article, but I have no access to where they com from. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:43, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * small correction: Lovro von Matačić was GMD. Grimes2 (talk) 09:30, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I presume there are listings of performances of the Oper Frankfurt somewhere, but they might be offline. The best choice might be a newspaper dive for the time around 30 November 1965 for reviews in Frankfurt-area or Germany-wide newspapers, though this may be difficult during COVID-19. Try zefys.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/index.php Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.7% of all FPs 21:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

New opera images
Been a bit slow to update the list of 'em at the top. Have moved in the three latest (well, La bohème technically is a few hours from passing, but one must finish up on Wikipedia for the year at some point.) Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.8% of all FPs 07:31, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Pelléas et Mélisande
Bragging, perhaps, but I'm starting to get more and more pleased at how this is coming along. It's a very difficult image to work with. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.7% of all FPs 20:33, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you, it's great on top! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:37, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I made it smaller there to align with the sidebar, but would prefer it larger without that sidebar. What do others think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, the one it's in will expand to fit the image. I think the problem is the sidebar below it, but given Debussy only really has one opera and three incomplete ones, we could probably say the operas by Debussy sidebar is substantially less significant here, and, if we're keeping it, might reasonably move it to Pelléas et Mélisande (opera). Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.7% of all FPs 21:48, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * We don't need that sidebar because the navigation is on top of the navbox. You can compare versions looking at the article history. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:01, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I think there's SOME use in the links at the top - the bottom links are past the references that seem to mark the end of the article for the reader - but also think they'd be better as a small part of an infobox, so there's at least consistency between mobile and web. It does no good to have the amazing disappearing/reappearing lead image like we have now, where what you view it on will either show it (and the opera sidebar) or show nothing..  Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.7% of all FPs 22:14, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
 * The navbox is where readers expect navboxes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:43, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not exactly normal to hide navboxes at the bottom outside of Wikipedia. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 7.7% of all FPs 09:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Resolved. I made the pic larger, and if others feel that it's still too small, they can fix it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:21, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Jerome Kohl
Jerome Kohl, as you could read in the DYK section earlier today, was a music theorist, known internationally as an expert in the music of Karlheinz Stockhausen. As a Wikipedia editor, he handled that topic almost alone, including the giant opera cycle Licht. Let's watch the articles, - it's quite a legacy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:39, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Manski Dorothea
Amazing the articles we didn't have ... Ser Amantio di Nicolao created in his edit No. 4.000.000 Dorothée Manski (pictured, the Witch of the Met (Hänsel und Gretel), seems her signature role, although she was Isolde in Salzburg also. Question: where does the é come from which I see only in WorldCat and such, but no source, - born Dorothea, international name Dorothee. What should our article title be? Next question: she seems to have escaped Nazi Germany early (before it officially started) to the U.S., but I read that so far only in her husband's article (in German). Any other source? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:22, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * There seems to be almost equal amounts of spelling Dorothea vs. Dorothee. But typically, American coverage eliminates the accent.  I see she was performing at the Met beginning in 1927. - kosboot (talk) 15:40, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The performance is mentioned in the article. No source has the accent, but WorldCat. I'd go for Dorothee because that was the later name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:45, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Conservatorio di Santa Cecilia
Conservatorio di Santa Cecilia is the conservatory under the auspices of the Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia. The Accademia is the umbrella institute, not the school, therefore, the alumni / faculty categories should be named after the Conservatoiro, not the Accademia itself. Once agreed, I'll propose the renaming to the "Categories for discussion". And perhaps the redirect should be expanded into an article as well. Seanetienne (talk) 14:33, 30 December 2020 (UTC) edited Seanetienne (talk) 14:08, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Since no one has commented, I shall propose to CfD. Seanetienne (talk) 15:04, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

The categories "Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia Alumni" and "Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia Faculty" should not be merged with those of the Conservatorio di Santa Cecilia. The Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia is a completely different school to the Conservatorio di Santa Cecilia. The Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia only accepts graduate students who have completed their "conservatorio" training. The Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia only offers "corsi di perfezionamento", or post graduate courses, unlike the Conservatorio di Santa Cecilia, which only offers undergraduate courses. The Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia is a school in its own right, with totally separate, exclusively postgraduate courses.See https://santacecilia.it/alta-formazione/corsi-di-perfezionamento/]]


 * I've had to revert two article attempts on this subject. A separate article for the conservatory must contain reliable sources to establish notability and is not a part of the CFD consensus. Jalen Folf   (talk)  21:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I am very sorry, but I had not noticed this discussion and so I have modified twice the article on the Conservatory, turning a redirect into a stub. I do believe the Conservatory and the Academy are by now two completely different establishments. The Conservatory website states they were separated for good by two acts of Parliament at the beginning of the twentieth century ('Nel 1911 il Liceo Musicale diviene ente morale autonomo (L.9.2.11 n.127) e nel 1919 fu “regificato”, ossia statalizzato (L.22.8.19 n.227), separandosi così definitivamente dall’Accademia'). As for the Academy, see history in English at their website. However, if you decide to restore the redirect article, I won't interfere any longer.--Jeanambr (talk) 23:01, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The redirect article has been restored. Thus two different Italian institutions are now unsourcedly mingled together in one only article, and most of the people numbered in the Category:Conservatorio di Santa Cecilia alumni never actually attended the Conservatorio itself. Here is the much meagrer list presented by the Conservatorio's Website, where such personalities as Roberto Abbado, Cecilia Gasdia or Rosa Feola were evidently not deemed worthy of mention.--Jeanambr (talk) 09:02, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
 * User:Jeanambr, the category renaming was a mistake so another proposal of renaming has been made for restoration. Maybe we can wait until the renaming is processed before taking on any distinguishing work. Seanetienne (talk) 18:24, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Many thanks.--Jeanambr (talk) 20:09, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

This is my attempt at separating the two. Seanetienne (talk) 09:43, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Opera Scotland
Opera Scotland is currently a REDIRECT to Scottish Opera. They are different organizations (http://www.operascotland.org/ and https://www.scottishopera.org.uk/). Creating that REDIRECT was a mistake. Either someone writes an article about Opera Scotland, or that REDIRECT should be speedily deleted under WP:R3, or proposed for deletion at WP:RFD under WP:RFD #10. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:53, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I have proposed a speedy deletion for "Opera Scotland". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:48, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I think the redirect is appropriate. Opera Scotland is a non-notable organization with zero coverage in any reliable sources. It appears to be dedicated to recording the history of opera in Scotland (although it does a very poor job of it on its website) and promoting current opera performances in Scotland. It doesn't appear to be anything special, based on the homespun un-professional look of the website. It's very likely anyone searching for Opera Scotland is looking for the Scottish Opera and not this very minor organization.4meter4 (talk) 15:02, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Deletion of opera navigation templates
User:Pigsonthewing has nominated several opera related templates currently in use for deletion. (see Templates for discussion) I have no problem with the proposed deletions if they are replaced with a suitable template at the bottom of the article as suggested. However, it doesn't look like the nominator actually bothered to create the replacement templates. Some help making sure we don't lose an appropriate opera navbox would be appreciated.4meter4 (talk) 19:27, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the notice 4meter4. It looks like Gerda has offered to make some at a later date; I can do so as well, either later today or tomorrow. Aza24 (talk) 23:18, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I just made one, Hugo Weisgall which you can copy, and no worries: the sidebar doesn't actually get deleted until all transclusions are taken care of. The discussion about a deletion is a different story. I removed one instance of the sidebar where it was longer than the stub article, but left the others in place until the consensus is reached. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:56, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Lead image selection
As soon as Template:Handel was deleted today, a user who is not a project member applied its image of the composer on top of all his works which still had the template. I changed it to an image related to the opera for the two featured articles, Rinaldo and Agrippina, where the portrayed Handel looks way too old. I'd prefer infoboxes for all works, - compare Messiah. What do others think? - P.S. While I typed this, the image was returned to Rinaldo, in a second position. I think it's misleading. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:22, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Can we say something about the selection of a lead image for an opera? (Perhaps we have it, and I just don't know?)
 * The lead image should be as close to the opera as possible, such as autograph manuscript, a scene depicted, music cover, sheet music, playbill, singer of a lead part (best in costume).
 * If no other image is available, a portrait of the composer can be taken, which is otherwise not necessary to show at all. It should then better come as part of an infobox, or might look misleadingly like an article about the composer.
 * If the composer should be pictured at all when not as lead, it should be in the history section, and the image should represent him or her about the age at composition time, compare La traviata.

On all accounts, there seems to be no room for an image of a middle-aged Handel in his youthful work Rinaldo, at all. If the doubtful image of a young Handel should be used, then in the history section, with a proper caption that it is doubtful. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:28, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Gerda, I agree with most of all of what you say. I think in this case, the image replacements may be fine as "placeholders" until someone finds more preferable ones. I don't think we can expect anyone to do so in the immediate future, so we may as well have something in the mean time. For an FA like Rinaldo, where the image has been re-added, I don't think it's good practice to have two images. Though the score duplicates one later in the article. Perhaps one of the images at Jerusalem Delivered could appear here, I can look through at a later time and propose something on the talk there, unless you want to. Aza24 (talk) 08:39, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I fixed Rinaldo, my bad to leave the image at the bottom when I copied it to the top. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:08, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I also added an infobox to Giulio Cesare, to be discussed here. I won't do more, but await thoughts. I really tried to find a position for the composer's image (which would match in time), but the article is loaded with images already. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:39, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I've cut back some of the images in that article to help with the previous layout. If you want to add a different image in the lead that's fine, but I still don't know why you would want to forbid having an image of the composer somewhere in the article? The composer is of course most relevant to the piece, and in a case like Rinaldo there is more than enough room to do so. Nor do I follow why you would prefer an image that may not be of the composer at all, compared to one that readers are more likely to recognize. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:22, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you talk to me personally or in the discussion. An image of the composer is not forbidden, but I think an image of Handel between 1726 and 1728 is misleading in a piece from 1713. You inserted it back anyway. I made it normal thumb size and have him look "in" (he looks right, so left is better), but I'd be happier without it. I estimate that 95% percent of potential readers of Rinaldo have seen that image before and recognize Handel simply by name, so it adds nothing for them. The others can see that image when they click on the composer. What do others think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:02, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Project page
A discussion on Classical music about a proposal for a new design of its project page made me look at "ours" here, and made me aware of several red links. I think the wording about the sidebar should reflect that it is no longer a preferred option. At this point, we might drop it altogether, it seems. Yes, I know I said this before ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:58, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I've updated the descriptions. Voceditenore (talk) 12:37, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I reverted to that version. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:08, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Category:Miscellaneous opera character redirects to lists has been nominated for deletion
Category:Miscellaneous opera character redirects to lists has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. -B RAINULATOR 9 (TALK) 02:16, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Girolamo Abos' Pelopida
Idly leafing (as one does) through the libretto of Pelopida, the dramma per musica of Girolamo Abos and Gaetano Roccaforte, premiered during carnival 1747 at the Teatro Argentina in Rome, I found two surprising items.

Firstly, a disclaimer that, despite the opera involving Fate and numi, the author is a good catholic. Authors apologising for their plot lines is not usual.

Secondly, credits to the costume designer and to the tailor. I know that this is Italy, home to la moda, but this was 1747!

Scarabocchio (talk) 05:56, 23 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I have read these disclaimers very often in roman librettos of that time. Currently I am preparing a german article about Vincis Gismondo, re di Polonia where it reads: "A questo fondamento parte istorico, e parte favoloso viene appoggiata l’azzione del presente Dramma, nell’ espressioni del quale l’Autore servendosi di parole, e sentimenti poetici si protesta di non allontanarsi per questo da i veri Dogmi della Cattolica Religione." One of my latest articles was de:Carlo il Calvo: „in cui qualunque espressione che non ben si accordasse co’ sentimenti cattolici si consideri come pura finzione poetica, e non altrimente etc.“ --Rodomonte (talk) 13:55, 23 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Fascinating .. and yet more proof of the variety of human frameworks of thought. Scarabocchio (talk) 21:30, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

In memoriam
DYK ... that Matthias Hölle, a regular bass singer at the Bayreuth Festival, appeared in the world premieres of Stockhausen's Donnerstag aus Licht and Samstag aus Licht at La Scala in Milan?

This was planned as a greeting to Jerome Kohl, and became a memorial. He wrote practically everything we know about Licht and Stockhausen's music, - a legacy. --