Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 44

Archives Table of Contents

Improving Referencing
I've started a new section as the previous long discussion was veering in this direction. Anyhow, now that I check User:AlexNewArtBot/OperaSearchResult every day, I put up 'problem flags' including Unreferenced and Refimprove, where applicable, although I don't usually have time to do much about actually finding the refs, and some of the articles are a waste of time as their notability is very dodgy, e.g. these latest opera-related ones - Scott J. McCoy and Charne Rochford. (I also add the Opera Project banner to the talk pages if applicable.) Is there some kind of bot similar to the one above that can generate lists of opera-related articles that are also marked with either Unreferenced or Refimprove? It would provide a useful list that we could dip into when we've got spare time to make some improvements. If a subject is truly notable, it only takes about 10 minutes to find and add at least a couple of references. Best Voceditenore 13:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I've just added a couple of articles to the project's "to do list" for articles needing verification (and removed one), but it's a bit laborious to do this by hand, and quite hit and miss - which is why a bot could be a big help. Also I've taken the liberty of explicitly noting the two cases where the articles are also Copy Vio. I hope that's OK. Best Voceditenore 15:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The 'To Do' page was set up (as an automatic list) by SatyrTN and I'm sure he would be happy to make any changes we thought necessary. In the past we have tried to ensure that each article has at least one reference. This has been a modest target and I'm not convinced we can do better given the number of editors here. Our first task (as noted before!) should really be to verify the articles listed in the 'To do' list. -- Kleinzach 23:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Offenbach
Just thought I'd share. Vanished user talk 15:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wonderful to see :-) Le  the  19:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Opera Project Logo
Javitomad - WP's own and possibly only logo designer - kindly offered us the use of his logo of the Madrid Opera - on 26 September (see 'About my logo). Here it is again:



Voceditenore and Smerus expressed some reservations about the colour scheme etc. (It's worth noting that the logo has to work at small sizes for the banner, not to mention the userbox.)

Javito has now produced a completely new logo for us to consider. It's based on the facade of the Paris Opera (Palais Garnier), arguably the grandest of all houses. Here it is at two sizes.

Javito is terrifically talented. We're lucky he's offered to help us, however if we are going to adopt a logo it's important that we get it right and have one that everybody (or at least most of us!) are happy with. So what do we think? -- Kleinzach 23:43, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm in favour, in principle, though I find the colours a bit garish (but then I'm partly colour-blind). And is the Garnier the right building? The Sydney Opera House, as on the existing banner, is more distinctive. --GuillaumeTell 16:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with GuillaumeTell. The Palais Garnier is not immediately recognizable as an opera house, nor is it the best known. In fact, most opera houses, especially when depicted schematically and on a small scale tend to look like city halls, parliament buildings, etc., even La Scala. The only one that's easily identifiable is the Sydney Opera House. I don't know how it would work as a schematic logo, but instead of a building exterior, perhaps an interior with the stage and classic horseshoe of boxes, e.g. ? Best, Voceditenore 17:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I like the Paris Opera logo as it is graphically strong and works at a small size - two of the main requirements - but as it doesn't say opera to you, shall we then concentrate on the idea of an interior? My suggestion would be to use one with a view from the stage (rather than towards it) in one of the small classic Italian houses (like Bologna). It needs to be an image without too much detail that can be reduced to a low-resolution logo. An example (the theatre in Reggio Emilia is on this page: . Would a logo picking out the rows of boxes in this darkish, golden interior work for you? -- Kleinzach 22:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I like the look of the Palais Garnier logo too. It just depends on how important people think it is for the logo to be immediately recognizable as representing opera. I suspect the interior one might be too fussy. As you say, it has to be graphically strong without too much detail. What about the exterior of La Scala? Its shape might be slightly more recogizable than the Garnier. But I'm not really fussed about it one way or another. Best, Voceditenore 14:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The logo would represent the Opera Project to Wikipedia. Non-opera people will notice it - if it's a strong graphic - and then associate it with the Opera Project. In that context, I don't think it makes much of a difference whether we use the Garnier, Scala, Vienna or whatever - it's really just the facade of a historic opera house. (Sydney would be more distinctive - but to me that's modern archtecture rather than opera. Not a lot of opera has been performed there either . . . .) -- Kleinzach 15:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've read your petitions, and here you are: Javitomad 01:15, 30 October 2007


 * Thanks again to Javitomad for his patience. My preference is still for the blue/red Paris facade (above) - partly because of the rounder shape - but I am happy to be unvoted if we can now make a final decision on adopting an official logo. Best. -- Kleinzach 05:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * On second thought and all in all, I think I prefer the Paris Opera one. Best, Voceditenore 15:45, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it should be decided with a votation. Do you agree? Javitomad [[Image:Flag of the Community of Madrid.svg|22px|Madrid]] (...tell me...) 20:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes indeed. Any votes for Sydney? Any more votes for Paris? Best. -- Kleinzach 23:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If you'll excuse a vote from a not-usually-posting-on-the-talk-page contributor, I would say that the Sydney one is more obviously opera-related, but I think the Paris one is a nicer design (mainly because of the roundness of it). Would it be possible to make the Sydney one have a blue oval background like the Paris one, rather than the half oval that it is now? Overall though, I think the logos are fantastic, very fresh and noticeable! Cricketgirl 23:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This one? Javitomad [[Image:Flag of the Community of Madrid.svg|22px|Madrid]] (...tell me...) 14:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Javitomad, you're awfully patient with us.;-) It was good to see the Sydney one in an oval, so we could compare like with like. Having seen the new version, I'll keep my vote for the Paris Opera. And again thanks for all your help! Like Cricketgirl, I think the logos look really good, very eye-catching and distinctive, whichever one is chosen. Voceditenore 16:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the new version, Javitomad! I really like it - my vote is definitely for Sydney, although I won't be upset if it ends up being the Paris one because that is also a very stylish logo. Thanks again! Cricketgirl 16:40, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm still siding with Sydney. --GuillaumeTell 17:25, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * That's two for Paris and two for Sydney. Let's try and drum up a few more votes. I'll put a new new notice at the foot of then page. -- Kleinzach 01:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Opera Project logo: Please vote!
Please vote to choose the new Opera Project logo! So far the Paris and Sydney designs have equal support (discussion above). Here they are again: Paris Opera (red) and Sydney (grey). -- Kleinzach 01:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Paris for me as the other logo, nice as it is, suggests to me 'modern architecture' as much as 'opera'.--Smerus 07:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sydney - more people will recognise it. Though the Paris one looks better.Vanished user talk 07:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Paris (Palais Garnier) - looks more like opera house and older (historical) than Sydney, besides, Sydney Opera house doesnt show much opera - Jay 11:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfair! OA performs almost every other night during its fairly long season. --Alexs letterbox 00:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I missed the reason for changing in the first place, but the Paris logo isnt quite recognizable. Maybe a photo instead with the green copper roof or a detail (Carpeaux would only be a reminder that it's now a ballet house instead, but mabe Apollo...)?   I'd still cast a tiebreaker for the Sidney photo. Sparafucil 07:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It's still very close. Unless there are any objections, I suggest we leave the voting open until 12.00 UTC on 7 November. (Voting began on 30/31st October.) -- Kleinzach 01:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I notice that WikiProject Composers has two alternative, equally valid, logos  and . As both the proposed logos for WikiProject Opera have their supporters, why cannot we have  and  ad lib? Smerus 10:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There's a technical problem. We used to have multiple banners but we had to reduce it to one because of the bot procedures. -- Kleinzach 11:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

We have now passed the deadline - and the Paris logo is the preferred one! Thanks to everyone for participating - and special thanks to Javitomad for his work! Best -- Kleinzach 00:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Have I missed something? I make the voting 4-4, as follows:


 * Paris: Kleinzach, Voceditenore, Smerus, Jay
 * Sydney: Cricketgirl, GuillaumeTell, Vanished user talk, Sparafucil


 * If I haven't miscounted, perhaps we should ask Jimbo Wales to give his casting vote? --GuillaumeTell 01:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice try! Sparafucil said  "I'd still cast a tiebreaker for the Sidney photo." . A tiebreaker is a term used in tennis for a procedure to resolve a tie. If there is no tie, there is no tiebreaker. In this case there was no tie - the voting was 4-3 in favour of Paris. I'm sure Javito won't mind if you want to use the Sydney image personally. -- Kleinzach 02:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

New archive page
I've made a new archive page (see link under the icon at the top of the page). This is to save space here, but also to make the archive potentially more accessible by providing space to date and pick out the contents of individual archives. -- Kleinzach 03:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've found there is an archive indexing bot at User:HBC Archive Indexerbot. It's a bit complicated but I'm hoping to make an index at Opera Project archive index. Best. -- Kleinzach 03:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Die Bürgschaft
What to do... there is an article The Hostage (ballad) dealing with 1) Schiller's poem 2) Schubert's setting and 3) Schubert's incomplete opera, apparently based on the same source.  I'm inclined to move it to Die Bürgschaft (Schiller) or just Die Bürgschaft since the poem is probably much less well-known than the song (I note a recent translation uses the same title, though).   Unfortunatly I cant find a translation of Brecht's Über Schillers Gedicht "Die Burgschaft", which might have been the clincher.   I'm now quite curious about Weill's opera; is it in fact related?Sparafucil 07:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently it's no relation whatsoever. According to Grove, Weill's opera is based on Johann Gottfried Herder's tale Der afrikanische Rechtspruch.  Grove translates the title as The Pledge (and the The Pledge link from the Kurt Weill page goes to a thriller by Friedrich Dürrenmatt called not Die Bürgschaft but Das Versprechen, and a Jack Nicolson film).  Good luck! --GuillaumeTell 11:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Sparafucil, I see you have moved the red link to Die Bürgschaft (Weill) instead of Die Bürgschaft (opera). Why is that? Is there another opera? An unwritten article? I don't get it. -- Kleinzach 23:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

There is an opera (apparently unfinished) by Schubert mentioned in the main article. I'm dont see that Grove offers guidance on which is more famous, so I think Die Bürgschaft (opera) can be either a disambig page or a redirect. Sparafucil 08:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It's possible to have a disambiguation page for Die Bürgschaft - if necessary - but not for Die Bürgschaft (opera). (Common sense really . . . .) There's no point in having it as a redirect either. Die Bürgschaft (opera) should either be for the Schubert (if that's the correct title) or the Weill. It doesn't matter much which it is. If the Schubert article doesn't exist, then the Weill should be Die Bürgschaft (opera). -- Kleinzach 13:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There are good reasons why there isn't (and probably shouldn't be) an article on the Schubert opera - it was unfinished, the torso has hardly ever been performed, the anonymous libretto is universally rubbished, I haven't been able to find the libretto or a synopsis or even a summary of the plot for it, neither Opera Grove nor Viking has an article on it, and there are more pressing operatic matters that need to be attended to before anyone spends any time on this. (Some of its numbers have, however, been recorded.) On the other hand, both Grove and Viking have articles on the Weill opera, and this is a good month for starting a Wikipedia article on it. --GuillaumeTell 01:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * OK I will correct Die Bürgschaft (Weill) to Die Bürgschaft (opera). -- Kleinzach 02:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Composer of the Month for February
Here are some ideas/previous suggestions for the February composer(s) of the month:

Some candidates:
 * Early German composers and the development of Singspiele: Johann Adam Hiller (1728-1804), Anton Schweitzer (1735 - 1787), Johann André (1741-1799), Christian Gottlob Neefe (1748-1798), Johann Friedrich Reichardt (1752-1814), Peter Winter (1754-1825)
 * Gioachino Rossini (1792-1868)
 * Alessandro Scarlatti (1660-1725) Antonio Caldara (1670-1736), and Antonio Vivaldi (1678-1741)
 * Hans Pfitzner (1869-1949) and Paul Hindemith (1895-1963)
 * Gaspare Spontini (1774-1851) and Luigi Cherubini (1760-1842)

Any other ideas or suggestions? Best. -- Kleinzach 04:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, if you felt like a collaboration across Wikiprojects, Arthur Sullivan? The main biography pages are GA or better (There are advantages to a limited focus). but most of the opera pages - except Thespis (opera) - have a lot of problems with random crap, trivia sections, and the like. Mind you, the situation there may have improved significantly by February, as we're going through the G&S operas in order. Vanished user talk 01:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Another good option might be another go at Jacques Offenbach. A lot of his articles are pretty awful. For instance, [[Orpheus in the Underworld may reach the bare minimum, but for such an important opera in Offenbach's career - it gave him a huge boost in respectability - it has an odd focus. For instance:
 * The first performance of the two-act, opéra bouffe version took place at the Théâtre des Bouffes Parisiens in Paris on 21 October 1858 and ran for an initial 228 performances. It then returned to the stage a few weeks later, after the cast had had a rest. For the Vienna production of 1860, Carl Binder provided an overture that became famous, beginning with its bristling fanfare, followed by a tender love song, a dramatic passage, a complex waltz, and, finally, the renowned Can-can music.


 * The piece then played in German at the Stadt Theatre, on Broadway, beginning in March, 1861. Next, it had a run of 76 performances at Her Majesty's Theatre, in London, beginning on December 26, 1865, in an adaptation by J. R. Planché.


 * The four-act version, designated as an opéra féerie, was performed at the Théâtre de la Gaîté on 7 February 1874.


 * Sadler's Wells opera presented an English version by Geoffrey Dunn beginning on 16 May, 1960, and the revived D'Oyly Carte Opera Company performed the work in the 1990s. New York's Glimmerglass Opera performs the work in 2007 along with other operas based on the Orpheus tale.


 * What's with that funny jump in the last paragraph from 1874 to British and New York productions 1960-2007, one of which seems to not have happened yet at the time of writing?


 * P.S. Note to self: Havbe a look in the 1865 Illustrated London News andsee if you can get a good illustration for it. But, anyway... Can we do anything about this? Vanished user talk 01:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Offenbach is well covered (even if the quality is not always very high). It's worth remembering that the Opera project - unlike the G&S and Wagner projects - covers over 450 different composers. So we concentrate on composers without existing articles on some (or all) of their operas (see candidates above). -- Kleinzach 02:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point, but even still, it does seem worth spending some extra time getting the really major composers and operas up to quality, so focusing efforts on major composers every so often can't be a bad idea. Maybe every other month, or once every three months a composer from the List of major opera composers could be chosen, even if he already has good coverage? Vanished user talk 02:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but we do have major composers still without good coverage - Rossini, for example, (a candidate above) has 16 red linked operas in The opera corpus. (Scarlatti, Vivaldi, Pfitzner, Hindemith, Spontini and Cherubini are also major.) -- Kleinzach 02:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * How's I miss Rossini? I vote for him. The rest are major parts of operatic development, but I don't think near as regularly performed [ignoring Vivaldi's non-operatic works]. You know how it is, want to improve coverage of the things people'll look for first first, ideally =) Vanished user talk 03:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Naturally, I'll vote for Rossini, as usual (I've been putting in a bit of work on Guillaume Tell recently, but the synopsis still needs expanding. --GuillaumeTell 11:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, let's go with Rossini. His name keeps coming up again and again here. (Not that I'll be much help, mind). BTW, Offenbach has already been CotM. --Folantin 11:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Good. Great to see unanimity! Gioachino Rossini will be a good choice - and a big challenge. He is now listed. I hope everyone will participate in one way or another - there's a lot to do! -- Kleinzach 23:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Notice of List articles
Page(s) related to this project have been created and/or added to one of the Contents subpages (not by me). This note is to let you know, so that experts in the field can expand them and check them for accuracy, and so that they can be added to any watchlists/tasklists, and have any appropriate project banners added, etc. Thanks. --Quiddity 19:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * List of basic opera topics

Archive index now available!
Thanks to Krellis and the HBC Archive Indexerbot we now have an index to our archives! It's at Opera Project archive index.

One thing worth noting: we should avoid starting new topics with apostrophes, quote marks, accents etc. so that indexing is correct. (I've removed them from some articles so the next bot run indexes all the topics properly). Reread! Relive! Enjoy! -- Kleinzach 00:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus in the Underworld
Is it just me, or is this still in a pretty shameful state for such a popular opera? We don't even have the French titles... Vanished user talk 01:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This article is at the point - like many others - where it needs the attention of someone who has a good recording together with the libretto. (A discography would also be worthwhile.) -- Kleinzach 01:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Online resources
I'm putting these links to pdf files here in case any of you want to download them for future reference. This especially applies to the SF Opera one which may not stay on the site after the current La rondine run ends. The La Fenice ones probably will stay on line permanently, but you never know.

Programme notes on La rondine by Gavin Plumley, San Francisco Opera 

'Programme di sala' from La Fenice. These are fab, albeit in Italian. They contain full librettos, extensive essays on the operas, many illustrations with original playbills and posters, role creators' portraits, original set and costume designs, score extracts, etc.

Best, Voceditenore 23:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * La traviata
 * Rigoletto
 * Luisa Miller
 * Simon Boccanegra (both versions!)
 * Maria di Rohan
 * Pia de' Tolomei


 * Yes, superb. -- Kleinzach 00:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Hector-Jonathan Crémieux
Made a stub on him, but it at least has a link. Vanished user talk 01:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks but we really need biographical info. Does anyone have refs? I don't have anything here, however I've added a list of his Offenbach livrets so the stub does at least have a bit of substance.


 * It's interesting that these Offenbach texts were almost always collaborative. Does anyone know why? Was there a division of labour? Poetry and prose? If so, which one was Crémieux? -- Kleinzach 01:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I found quite a long piece on him here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=869&letter=C Interesting chap. It's from late 19th C sources, hence a bit flowery, but seems to have reputable sources:
 * Bibliography: Larousse, Dictionnaire, xvi. and Supplement;
 * Wells, The Modern French Drama, Boston, 1896;
 * Arends, Gesch. der Französischen Bühnenliteratur, Leipsic, 1886.S.

Best. Voceditenore 07:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually that was Vanished user's source. One thing - it claims he wrote a text(s) for Delibes but I couldn't find anything. Maybe a mistake? We also need to know much more about him as a playwright. -- Kleinzach 07:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Whoops! The article was so short, I assumed the link was to the abridged version. But that JE article cited does have a fair amount about his plays. He and Pierre Decourcelle also seem to have turned Halevy's novel, L'Abbe Constantin, into a play (Théâtre du Gymnase, 1882). See: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3957/3957.txt Re Delibes quite a few sources list this:
 * Delibes, Les eaux d’Ems, comédie en 1 acte, livret de H. Crémieux & L. Halévy, créé à Ems, à la Kursaal en été 1861. Voceditenore 08:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * An opérette? I've started a list of Delibes works. -- Kleinzach 09:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. I don't know about the various fine distinctions - some call it an opéra comique, others call it an operette. Anyhow, he wrote it 'to order' to celebrate the opening of the thermal baths in Ems Voceditenore 09:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's another play, again a 'committee effort' - La voie sacrée, ou, Les étapes de la gloire: drame militaire en cinq actes By Eugène Woestyn, Hector Jonathan Crémieux, Ernest Bourget. See: Google Books Voceditenore 09:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * And another, from the French Wikipedia: Le Pied de mouton by Charles-Théodore and Jean-Hippolyte Cogniard and Hector Crémieux. Voceditenore 09:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * And another, this time a family effort, Fiesque: drame en cinq actes et huit tableaux, en vers, d'après Schiller by Émile Crémieux (Hector's brother), Hector Jonathan Crémieux, Friedrich Schiller (1852). See: Google Books Voceditenore 10:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Why am I putting them here, rhetorical question.;-) I'll go stick 'em in the article.Voceditenore 11:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry it was so shrort - I wrote it while suffering from temporary stomach troubles, and just wasn't up to much. Vanished user talk 14:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added a bit more detail from Opera Grove and will augment the list of librettos later. Grove regards him as very much a junior partner, but apparently Halévy wanted to keep his libretto-writing in the background and was happy for Crémieux to get most of the credit. --GuillaumeTell 19:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

In view of all this admirable enthusiam for writing up Crémieux, might I possibly mention that we also need articles on other French librettists of the same period, including Louis-Adolphe Jaime, Mélesville, Charles-Louis-Etienne Nuitter, and Albert Vanloo. Thank you. -- Kleinzach 02:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ironically, we have a better article on him than the French wikipedia. I'm half inclined to copy over our lists. Vanished user talk 03:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * We have better coverage for French opera generally than the French Wikipedia (e.g. Offenbach) though the quality of their articles is good. -- Kleinzach 04:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've now started Albert Vanloo - contributions welcome! -- Kleinzach 09:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)