Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 52

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Article assessment
As many Project members will remember, three of us conducted a pilot assessment exercise, using articles within the scope of WikiProject Richard Wagner, a few months ago. We reported here at the end of the pilot, and the report can be viewed here. If anyone would like to sample the Wagner assessments that were done, the place to start is here.

Kleinzach and I would like to start extending assessment to articles covered by the Opera Project (i.e. articles with the Project banner on their Talk pages). The first step will be to commission a Bot to automatically give a "Start" rating to nearly all articles which are not already classified as Stub. Articles which have been promoted to Good Article, Featured Article or Featured List will show those ratings on the banner.

This may take some time, particularly if any problems are encountered. Once it has been completed satisfactorily, there will need to be further discussion here about how the actual assessments will be done.

Any comments or questions at this stage?

--GuillaumeTell (talk) 01:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC) and -- Kleinzach (talk) 01:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This proposal has remained on the project Talk page for two weeks without any objections being raised so my understanding is that is accepted and we can now archive the topic. Best. --Kleinzach (talk) 10:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Singer categories
Singer categories have been discussed in the past: see and  also the cfd discussions: and . It's generally been agreed that the categorization is unsatisfactory. We're unable to count (process, or indeed find) our singer articles because of inconsistencies.

The project page at present explains here that:


 * Singers are categorized nationality, ie, Category:French opera singers and by voice:


 * Category:sopranos • Category:mezzo-sopranos • Category:altos • :Category:countertenors • Category:tenors • Category:baritones • Category:basses

I propose we change this to:


 * Singers are categorized nationality, ie, Category:French opera singers etc, and by voice:


 * Category:Operatic sopranos • Category:Operatic mezzo-sopranos • Category:Operatic contraltos • Category:Operatic countertenors • Category:Operatic tenors • Category:Operatic baritones • Category:Operatic bass-baritones • Category:Operatic basses

If the proposal is agreed, we can create the necessary new categories, (bot) move the articles into the new categories - which I think is now manageable - and remove the non-opera singers. (The effect of this will be to depopulate the top voice categories of soprano, tenor etc., and put all the articles in sub-categories.)

I believe this proposal is in line with the views that most people have expressed in the past. Please give an aye or a nay! --Kleinzach (talk) 08:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. Good idea. Besides there already are cats like this for Operatic baritones and Operatic tenors. What about a Category:Operatic bass-baritones, just to be consistent?Voceditenore (talk) 15:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed. I've added bass-baritones (above). --Kleinzach (talk) 23:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've now created the new cats. --Kleinzach (talk) 01:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * . . and annotated the project page.--Kleinzach (talk) 03:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

This has remained on the project Talk page for two weeks so if there are no more questions or comments I'll go ahead and archive it. Thanks. --Kleinzach (talk) 06:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Opera singers and descriptions of their voices
Having just looked at the Nellie Melba article, I was impressed that it lacked any description of her voice despite the fact that an opera singer's voice is the most important factor in differentiating them from other singers. The articles on Joan Sutherland, Maria Callas, and Giuseppe Di Stefano all have solid discussions of their voices. Even in articles where the voice is not given much mention, such as Enrico Caruso, Renata Tebaldi, and Montserrat Caballé, it is at least discussed briefly. Strangely, the article on Luciano Pavarotti has only two sentences that I could see describing his voice. What about a standard heading in articles on opera singers such as "Descriptions of his (her) voice" which could use quotes and criticisms and which could be used to differentiate them from other singers? --CloudSurfer (talk) 02:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, good point. I'm in favour of having sections with "quotes and criticisms" about voice qualities, perhaps called 'Critical appreciation' as on some other articles. Michael Scott is particular would be a good source. --Kleinzach (talk) 03:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Deep C and Low C
I have nominated these two pages for deletion as they are not terms that I have found in any music dictionary or music pedagogy book (at least as a standardized term low C is used as a reference term but it changes from instrument to instrument). Please contribute to the deletion discussion on these pages: Deep C and Low C.Nrswanson (talk) 22:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've removed these from the opera terms navigation box. --Kleinzach (talk) 00:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Premiere account of Motezuma?
I happened upon this article recently and discovered that there is a possible errror in the informantion on the modern world premiere of this production. The article says the modern world premiere was held on 21 September 2005 in Düsseldorf as part of the Altstadtherbst Kulturfestival, in a production by Uwe Schmitz-Gielsdorf, designed by Paolo Atzori, with l’Orchestra Modo Antiquo conducted again by Sardelli. However, I have come acroos another source that says it was at the De Doelen Centre in Rotterdam in 2005. That is at least what is on the biographical account of singer Marie-Nicole Lemieux who was in the production says. It also says that on her bio at the following. What is the truth? Anyone know?Nrswanson (talk) 14:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The Düsseldorf was the first fully staged version. The Rotterdam one was only a concert version due to copyright issues.  Read further down the article in the Copyright dispute section. See also:,, and . Incidentally, the Wikipedia article has no references whatsoever. What is it with people?  They take the trouble to write an article, obviously using some source(s). Why not not take the extra couple of minutes to add them to the article? Voceditenore (talk) 16:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've now added them to the article.Humph! ;-) Voceditenore (talk) 16:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for clearing that up.Nrswanson (talk) 18:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Opera: Articles of unclear notability
Hello,

there are currently 11 articles in the scope of this project which are tagged with notability concerns. I have listed them here. (Note: this listing is based on a database snapshot of 2008-03-12 and may be slightly outdated.)

I would encourage members of this project to have a look at these articles, and see whether independent sources can be added, whether the articles can be merged into an article of larger scope, or possibly be deleted. Any help in cleaning up this backlog is appreciated. For further information, see WikiProject Notability.

If you have any questions, please leave a message on the Notability project page or on my personal talk page. (I'm not watching this page however.) Thanks! --B. Wolterding (talk) 16:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for drawing this to our attention. Some of these articles look like they are on legitimate topics but just need some more research done. Others however look like they are not notable. I have just nominated Laurenţiu Rotaru for deletion.Nrswanson (talk) 19:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There's no doubt that Mario Sammarco and Oralia Dominguez are notable - both are in Grove, and Sammarco was the first Gérard in Andrea Chénier. I can add a few things to both articles.  The rest of them look pretty dubious to me, at least from an opera point of view.   --GuillaumeTell (talk) 22:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I have improved the page on Marie-Adele McArthur although I think it still could use a little work. There was an article on her in Opera News and she did win the Metropolitan National Opera Auditions and she has sung with some pretty good opera companies including Sarasota Opera and the Liceu. So I think she is notable enough.Nrswanson (talk) 17:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I have nominated the pages on Stephen Svanholm, Noelle Brooks, and Laura Belli for deletion. I am not sure whether the articles on Scott J. McCoy, Opera Theater of Lucca, and John Brown (opera singer) are relevant or not. Scott J. McCoy is the upcoming President of NATS so I think he probably makes the notability list. The Opera Theater of Lucca is a University program so I am not really sure if that makes it notable or not. I haven't found any reviews on John Brown as a performer but his bio at the University where he teaches says he originated some opera roles, including some roles in some of Menotti's lesser known operas. That might make him notable enough. What do you all think?Nrswanson (talk) 20:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Brown is very borderline, I'd say. Only one role created, in one of Menotti's late childrens' operas, unless I misread the bio.  I've never heard of Liebl who wrote the O Henry opera.  There's no mention of any opera companies with which he performed all those roles, so the companies are unlikely to be notable ones.  On balance, thumbs down. --GuillaumeTell (talk) 21:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've prodded Opera Theater of Lucca which was created by someone connected with the now deleted Daniel Hambly article. I agree with GuillaumeTell on Brown. If refs are not available, he should go. McCoy also needs better refs. I agree with deletion for Stephen Svanholm and Noelle Brooks. Laura Belli - not to be confused with an Italian actress of the same name - was a copyviol. She is probably just about notable but it's a near thing. --Kleinzach (talk) 00:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I think we are on the same page Kleinzach. I will say though that as a vocal pedagogist McCoy is definitely noteworthy just by virtue of being President of NATS which is an extremely important organization in the development of opera singers within the United States. He has also written some important material and developed an impressive program at Westminster Choir College. I used his book while i was in college. So I think his page should stay not on the virtue of his work as a performer but as a vocal pedagogist.Nrswanson (talk) 00:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * In that case McCoy needs to be categorized - but not as a singer. He also needs a bibliography. --Kleinzach (talk) 02:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

We have not yet discussed the The Dreamers (opera). Opera News did review the work, although only briefly. However, Sonoma City Opera is a very minor company. Not sure about notability. Nrswanson (talk) 01:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That just about passes - by virtue of Opera News. --Kleinzach (talk) 02:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Singer category sub types
Did we want to create cats for sub types? Such as Category:Coloratura Sopranos?Nrswanson (talk) 06:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Other categories can obviously be set up although IMO we should try to keep it simple and not create any ones that don't have broad acceptance. If you want to suggest Category:Coloratura Sopranos please start a new topic. --Kleinzach (talk) 07:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * OK. I've done it for you. --Kleinzach (talk) 02:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Afd Classical music in popular culture/Pagliacci material
I've put this up for Afd here. Most of it is previously deleted listcruft from Pagliacci. --Kleinzach (talk) 10:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

April Singer of the Month
Sorry, for the lateness. How did March go by so fast??? I'm adding a suggestion below, but I'm going to be travelling for a large part of April, and can't help much in the articles on whatever singer(s) are chosen. So please feel free to suggest anything else that you find more appealing....

"The García Clan" Any other suggestions? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Maria Malibran has no inline citations and only a couple of refs and could use polishing/expanding
 * Her sister, Pauline García-Viardot currently has no refs and could use polishing/expanding
 * Their father Manuel del Pópulo Vicente García needs expansion, polishing and an image
 * Their brother Manuel Patricio Rodríguez García needs expansion, polishing and an image
 * Possibly an article on Pauline's husband Louis Viardot,  director of the Théâtre-Italien etc.


 * The Garcias are of course fascinating, but the articles are already quite substantial. I've been thinking about SotM in the light of this month's (IMO) very successful Rossini role creators series. I'm wondering whether it is possible to do a list of early French singers connected to Marc-Antoine Charpentier and André Campra. Perhaps Folantin can suggest some? (I see a couple of the existing Charpentier articles gives original singers.) --Kleinzach (talk) 00:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

"Charpentier and Campra's singers"

Here's the list gleaned from the role creators in Les arts florissants  and Médée. (None of Campra's operas have articles). Do any of the following seem do-able? Jacqueline-Geneviève de Brion, Antoinette Talon, Marie Guilbault de Grandmaison, Pierre Beaupuis, Elisabeth "Isabelle" Thorin, Mlle de Guise (aka Marie de Lorraine, duchesse de Guise ), Marthe Le Rochois (of whom the wacky and wonderful Julie d'Aubigny was allegedly enamoured), Dumesnil (already has a short article from the 1911 Brittanica), Jean Dun, Fanchon Moreau, Germain Carlier. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I've no information on these except Le Rochois and Moreau (and her sister Louison). Maybe we need to cast our net wider? French singers 1650 to 1750, or whatever? Any ideas? --Kleinzach (talk) 14:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Casting the net wider

Here are 3 more from that period are already red-linked: Marie Verdier, Pierre Jélyotte, Sophie Arnould

Re the Dumesnil (above) - that article is actually for a French actress of the period. The haute-contre I think we're looking for doesn't have an article. And to make matters worse, his name seems to spelled zillions of ways: Louis Gaulard Dumesny (or Dumeny, or Dumeni, or du Mesny, or Dumesnil, or Duménil )

A few others that keep popping up but aren't red-linked: Claude Chassé and Marie-Jeanne Chevalier

I'd suggest putting the whole lot up and people can pick and choose depending which ones they can get information for. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, that may be best. Of the singers you mention I have info on six: Fanchon Moreau, Louison Moreau, Marthe Le Rochois, Marie Verdier, Pierre Jélyotte, Sophie Arnould - though not a lot of it. --Kleinzach (talk) 23:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Folantin writes (on my userpage)  " we need articles on Pierre Jélyotte and Sophie Arnould, even though they came from a later era than Charpentier and Campra. There's some information in French about the major singers who worked for Lully (nearer the Charpentier/Campra period) here  ". --Kleinzach (talk) 12:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's were I found out all the different versions of Louis Gaulard Dumesny's name. I've now gone through that page and selected the singers on it for which there is a reasonable amount of information and who haven't already been listed above:


 * Marie Aubry, Anne Chabanceau de La Barre, François Beaumavielle (or Beaumavieille), Anna Bergerotti, Marie-Madeleine Brigogne, Marie-Madeleine Jossier Cartilly, Giuseppe Chiarini, Marie-Louise Desmatins, Hilaire Dupuy (or Dupuis, sometimes known as "Mlle Hilaire"), Jean Gaye, Gabriel-Vincent Thévenard, Mlle de Saint-Christophle (or Saint-Christophe). Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * That's great. As you suggested before, perhaps we can just list all of them and see which ones are viable later? --Kleinzach (talk) 14:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to higlight this link which I've just added to Online research. Those of you working on baroque operas might find if useful: Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The Virtual Rare Book Room at the University of North Texas Music Library has digitized scans of scores, libretti, and playbills. The collection is particularly strong in 18th century French opera.

Joyce Barker
I'm new to this so hope I'm in the right place and not putting my foot in it!. How about somthing on (the late) Joyce Barker? I know of her career through studies in South African universities where she was born. Her roles in Aida and Turandot are enthusiasticaly remebered as is her career as a teacher in the years before she passed. I have some contact with her family and could access and share much information possibly not previously published. Any thoughts? Precinctwebgeoff (talk) 12:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Precinctwebgeoff, I was just about to answer you on the Category:Sopranos talk page. It would be great to have an artcle on Joyce Barker. You don't need to wait for a 'singer of the month', just go ahead and start the article. One thing that you do have to watch, is that it has to be referenced to published sources. On the whole, Wikipedia doesn't accept unpublished material in biography articles. There's more information at WP:BIO. You can check out these singer articles for an idea of the format and referencing that we use: Maria Caniglia and Kate Royal. The Opera Project page has some guidelines that you might also find helpful, especially for formatting the names of operas etc. And don't worry if your article isn't perfect at first, OP editors will stop by and lend a hand. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Nonexistent opera articles
Should we discuss articles on non-existent operas? By nonexistent I mean operas that were lost, never written or so little developed they are unperformable. An examples is the new Maître Pierre, (also Verdi's Re Lear though that is now toned down to an article about a libretto and, unlike Maître Pierre, is not listed in a navigation box).

The problem with listing nonexistent operas - for example in navigation boxes - is that it's misleading, but also serves to discredit WP with readers who know better ("silly Wikipedia!" etc). Obviously unrealized projects should be mentioned in biographical pages - the question is whether they should be made into independent articles? What do you think?--Kleinzach (talk) 07:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It depends how important they are and whether there's enough information to create more than a stub. There's enough to say about Monteverdi's L'Arianna for it to deserve its own separate article, but I'm not so sure about the composer's other lost works. This is true for Berlioz's Les francs-juges (with its famous overture) but not, I think, his Nonne sanglante. I grouped Rameau's lost operas together and got a decent-sized article out of it. I plan to do something similar with a page on Debussy's unfinished and projected operas (although Rodrigue et Chimène - which has been completed, staged and recorded - is perhaps substantial enough to have its own page). I'd assume the real problems are with articles on operas which were never in fact written. --Folantin (talk) 09:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Lost operas by ABC is not going to be misunderstood. Works with at least some significant surviving music like L'Arianna and Les francs-juges should be worthwhile - though perhaps entitled according to the surviving music, e.g. Overture to Les francs-juges. What about Maître Pierre - variously described as 'unrealized', 'half orchestrated', 'abandoned' and 'incomplete'?
 * We are now beginning to go beyond the coverage of Grove etc. WP editors often succumb to completism, and the opportunities for creating main opera articles are gradually diminishing, so perhaps it's worth beginning to think about articles that we don't want.--Kleinzach (talk) 10:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, there's more to Les francs-juges than the overture, as the article makes clear (I could even add a plot summary there though I don't relish the prospect, it's so insanely complicated). I think we should decide these questions on an individual basis. If we have a substantial amount of information available, we can have an article. There's also the possibility of lost pieces re-emerging, as Francesco Sacrati's opera La finta pazza did during the 1980s.--Folantin (talk) 10:34, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Re. Les francs-juges the article does make this clear, though not the lead - hence my misunderstanding! --Kleinzach (talk) 23:49, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with Folantin. I don't think there's anything to be gained by deciding a priori what articles we don't want. And if an unfinished opera is labelled in the nav box as unfinished or lost, I don't see how that would discredit WP in the eyes of "readers who know better". In fact, I think they'd be impressed. As for Maître Pierre, I think that one's ok, personally. It even has the potential for expansion if someone ever gets hold of the interview with Eduard Hanslick and/or the letters to Paul Poirson. Re Lear is different. Verdi never seems to have worked on it at all (musically speaking). By the way, Folantin, are you familiar with this reworking of Arianna? . Goehr also included the 'Lament', sticking (sort of) to Monteverdi's music. I saw it at the ROH. It was quite gripping, but they never revived it after its 1995 run. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "By the way, Folantin, are you familiar with this reworking of Arianna?" I caught some of it on a Radio 3 broadcast at the time. I think there's a recording on NMC. "Goehr also included the 'Lament', sticking (sort of) to Monteverdi's music". Didn't they play an old recording of Monteverdi's lament by Nadia Boulanger at that point? --Folantin (talk) 12:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * My hazy recollection is that the recording of the 'real' lament was embedded in a longer lamentation written by Goehr, who changed his own style slightly for that bit. I could be wrong though. A lot of ROH visits under the bridge since that one and they're all starting to blur.:-) Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

OK. I guess this one will come up again - and it will be useful to refer to this discussion. I remain a bit wary - I'd prefer to see more even development of our coverage - but we can see whether this becomes more of an issue in the future. Thanks for your thoughts. --Kleinzach (talk) 12:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a point about Re Lear: I have a plan to go through the (numerous) references to this In Julian Budden and perhaps add a bit to the article (with a link from the Verdi article - there isn't one there at present). --GuillaumeTell (talk) 17:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Maitre Pierre is, rather than non-existant, a considerably more substantial fragment than, say, L'oca del Cairo, and one that was organized into a performable suite by its composer (should that be in the first rather than the second paragraph?). I cant say exactly how much is there and have preserved Huebner's wording: "full score" may be the half that was orchestrated, the full piano score, or even half and half as far as I can tell from here.  I'll readily grant that it could be a lower priority than other operas that would take up a much larger chunk of my leisure, but I'm not a full time writer. Sparafucil (talk) 09:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Portal:Opera
Do you think we should have our own portal? I know we can also put on opera related info in Portal:Classical music, but I think it is also good if we have our own. What do you guys think? I have make the intro and added the tag at opera article. However, if majority disagree, please remove it - Jay (talk) 12:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * As I understand it, a portal is a glorified navigation box with lots of pictures. To be successful it would need to represent the range of articles we have, including all the people involved from composers to singers and directors, opera houses and companies, history, genres, terminology etc etc. Quite a lot of work, though it may not need to be updated too often. Some design skill would be essential. Who would want to take it on? --Kleinzach (talk) 13:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. We need cooperation from all of us here. I just put on some basic (at the moment, so it wont look empty) and hopefully all of us here could expand it later on - Jay (talk) 13:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I have finished adding some basic info in it. You can add on or change whatever neccessary such as the color, design, articles etc). Thanks - Jay (talk) 13:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, Jay, I think it looks very nice (and professional, too) - you must have put a lot of work into it! We need to think a bit about what to include, have a look at other portals, etc.  Presumably Plácido Domingo will be a permanent feature { ? --GuillaumeTell (talk) 17:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, Jay. It looks really nice. And I think it's a good idea. Could I put in a request for a "Did You Know?" section?  I've got at least three to start you off - Voceditenore


 * Wow! I am very impressed. Good work! I have a sugestion. Perhaps we could use the portal as a means to highlight the featured singer of the month and composer of the month for the opera wikiproject. Maybe we could also add a featured opera company or opera house.Nrswanson (talk) 18:12, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Jay, this is gold star stuff. Thanks and congratulations. I agree with the idea of featuring the singer and composer of the month, this wd additionally give the impression that all of us on the project were being coherent [[Image:Confused-tpvgames.gif]] Smerus (talk) 22:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Design looks great. I think we should vote in Jay as our first 'Portal Editor'. Another suggestion: a genre box to regularly introduce a different kind of opera --Kleinzach (talk) 23:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I second the nomination. :-)Nrswanson (talk) 00:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I have made some changes and added 2 more sections (Composer and Singer of the month). And GuillaumeTell, to answer for that, yeah I wish but I "try" not to do it {! As requested by Voceditenore, I have also added "Did you know" section. - Jay (talk)

Nice work, Jay. --Folantin (talk) 11:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added the Portal to Portal/Directory. As usual, the hierarchy is a bit chaotic, but as the Theatre and Musical Theatre Projects aren't shown as sub-projects of Arts (only Origami is a sub-project of Arts!), I've aligned it with their entries.  Needless to say, I didn't put it under Music...  I've shown Jay as creator, but the Opera Project as a whole as Maintainer, if that's OK. Maybe we should think about applying for Featured Portal status sometime. --GuillaumeTell (talk) 17:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)