Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 67

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Cilea vs. Cilèa
An editor has moved Francesco Cilea to Francesco Cilèa. There's a discussion on Talk:Francesco Cilèa if anyone here wants to comment. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Composer of the Month: Suggestions for August
I offer for consideration John Frederick Lampe's Pyramus and Thisbe and The Dragon of Wantley, both of which deserve their own articles rather than be subsumed in others; Felix Mendelssohn's operas Die Hochzeit von Camacho and Die beide Neffen; and Bortniansky's Alcide (and maybe some of his others). Smerus (talk) 18:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Are we talking about Composer(s) of the Month (CotM)? -- Klein zach  23:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * OK I assume we are. . . . I wonder whether Lampe, Mendelssohn and Bortniansky aren't a rather odd bunch? How about instead doing another batch of major minors from the same list we have been using for the past few months? Both the 19th century list and the 20th century list are about the right size for CotM. Any preferences or other ideas? -- Klein zach  14:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well they are an odd bunch, but they might never have a chance otherwise! - who do we ever bunch up Mendelssohn with, for example? - other people might have 'odds and ends' who they might like to add....--Smerus (talk) 15:35, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Kleinzach that they are a bit odd of a mix since they come from three different periods in musical history: Lampe is baroque, Bortniansky is classical, and Mendelssohn is romantic. However, I agree with Smerus that they are all worth doing. Why don't you simply add them to those lists Smerus? Then they will be gotten to eventually just in a more appropriate grouping. Since you seem interested in Mendelssohn how about 19th century "M composers":
 * Johann Simon Mayr (1763-1845)
 * 1813: Medea in Corinto


 * Saverio Mercadante (1795-1870)
 * 1837: Il giuramento
 * 1840: La vestale (Mercadante)
 * 1846: Orazi e Curiazi


 * Felix Mendelssohn ::* (1809–1847)
 * 1824: Die beide Neffen
 * 1827: Die Hochzeit von Camacho
 * Die beiden Pädagogen,
 * Die Heimkehr as dem Fremde
 * Die Soldatenliebschaft


 * Filippo Marchetti (1831-1902)
 * 1865:Romeo e Giulietta
 * 1869:Ruy Blas (Marchetti)


 * Karl Millöcker (1842-1899)
 * 1879: Gräfin Dubarry


 * Alexander Mackenzie (1847-1935)
 * Colomba (opera)


 * What do you all think?Nrswanson (talk) 15:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought the plan was to deal with the operas on the list on my user page first so we had broad coverage of the basic operas. I've already done 40 of them this month and, personally, I don't plan to do too many more. I have no objections to the two Mendelssohn operas Smerus proposed but I don't see the point of some of the others not on the list we created. BTW Didn't Millöcker's Dubarry already appear on CotM not so long ago? --Folantin (talk) 16:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If that was the plan I certainly never heard about it. And I have no idea about the Millöcker opera. I compiled this list from yours and the opera corpus.Nrswanson (talk) 16:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The initial discussion is here . The aim was to focus on "major minor" operas which could have a viable article not just a stub. Milloecker's Dubarry was part of the CotM for May, so if nobody was interested then I doubt if it will get done now. --Folantin (talk) 17:02, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I am happy to go for Nrswanson's M list for August; maybe a Milloecker enthusiast may have appeared since May...... Smerus (talk) 18:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't mind writing the article on Gräfin Dubarry.Nrswanson (talk) 18:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've now started it. Perhaps you would like to add to it - though be careful about distinguishing between the two versions! -- Klein zach  02:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we are all agreed to do the 19th century. The question is whether we use Nathan's list above or the 19th century list compiled by Folantin, GT and myself which features more (15) composers on the basis of one opera each. I prefer the latter because it's more balanced. (This doesn't mean that Nathan's list is rejected in any way. It's still a good idea to go ahead and do them.)

The point about CotM is that it is a masthead advert for the Opera Project designed to attract new members. It's not some kind of monthly contest. (Regarding the Millöcker, GT - who originally suggested it - was going to do it on the basis of the German article but didn't have time. Anybody want to translate it? (Please note the German article entitles the revised version, whereas I think we'd want to do the original.) -- Klein  zach  23:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Before we rename CotM, there are still a rew month-sized composers left: Hindemith, Saint-Saëns, Milhaud (I'm pretty close to achival materials).  And I'd be very happy to see Mendelssohn covered- why not pair him with Schubert?   Lampe could be grouped with Eccles, Greene & others, so that some collaborative weight is brought to bear on common venues, performers, patrons, genres and other wikilinks.    Sparafucil (talk) 04:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

A suggestion:
 * if it's OK with Folantin et al., are they happy for other members of WPOpera to add items to the list? (Maybe this is already the case, and I have missed any signposts). Then we can all be washing in consensual water, and we can ladle out such quantities as and when seems appropriate.Smerus (talk) 10:34, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure. Remember the aim is to offer a representative, not an exhaustive, list of operas by composers we haven't covered yet (which is why there are only four works by Scarlatti there, not 90+). Also, items listed should be selected on the basis of their viability as articles. In other words, you should really have enough info on them to create something beyond a stub. With those caveats in mind, go right ahead and add. --Folantin (talk) 10:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Good, now we are all singing from the same hymnsheet, which period should we do? 19th, 20th or Classical era? -- Klein zach  04:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

This discussion seems to have gone cold. It seems the 19th century is attracting the most interest so far. Perhaps this list (taken from Folantin's page) is acceptable? If there are no objections/amendments I'll list it in a couple of days. -- Klein zach  00:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 1804: Leonora by Ferdinando Paer (1771-1839)
 * 1809: Die Schweizerfamilie by Joseph Weigl (1766-1846)
 * 1813: Medea in Corinto by Johann Simon Mayr (1763-1845)
 * 1816: Faust by Louis Spohr (1784-1859)
 * 1824: Die beide Neffen by Felix Mendelssohn (1813-1847)
 * 1825: Giulietta e Romeo by Nicola Vaccai (1790-1848)
 * 1827: Die Hochzeit von Camacho by Felix Mendelssohn (1813-1847)
 * 1837: Il giuramento by Saverio Mercadante (1795-1870)
 * 1840: La vestale by Saverio Mercadante (1795-1870)
 * 1846: Orazi e Curiazi by Saverio Mercadante (1795-1870)
 * 1862: The Lily of Killarney by Julius Benedict (1804-1885)
 * 1889: Lo schiavo by Antônio Carlos Gomes (1838-1896)
 * 1893: L'attaque du moulin by Alfred Bruneau (1857-1934)
 * 1895: Der Evangelimann by Wilhelm Kienzl (1857-1941)


 * I've now listed them. -- Klein zach  09:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

New music theory wikiproject
I just started a new project dedicated to editing articles related to music theory. The scope of the project includes articles on the following:
 * The mechanics of music and how music works.
 * Elements of music such as melody, harmony, rhythm, pitch, texture, etc.
 * Compositional form and structure.
 * Theories of harmonization.
 * Music notation.
 * Music and mathematics.
 * Musical analysis.
 * Sight singing and ear training.
 * Music theorists

All are welcome to join and participate.Nrswanson (talk) 17:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

List of Mozart's operas - dying at FLC
This list has been at FLC for six days, during which time it has attracted one support and one "comments resolved". Some comments have been added to the list's talk page. No comment or opinion of any kind has come from anyone associated with the Opera project.

This puzzles me - not the lack of support (maybe it doesn't warrant it), but the apparent lack of any interest. When I first posted the list there was interest within the project and some debate; the reception was generally favourable, positive suggestions were made. Someone even ventured a view that this format could become a standard for opera lists. These comments made me feel that a featured list was a possiblity and that an attempt in this direction would be welcomed. So I am somewhat baffled by the ensuing total silence. There seems to have been a change of heart - are initiatives from non-project members frowned on? Have I trodden on someone's toes? If I am being paranoid, well, there's still time to make a comment at FLC; any show of interest would be welcome. Brianboulton (talk) 16:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I can only speak for myself, but I've been off on various trips and haven't even looked at WP for the past three weeks. I guess that others are on holiday, too.  I'll hop over to FLC once the golf has finished for the evening... --GuillaumeTell 17:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey Brian. I am currently doing a show on top of working so I haven't been on here much either. I will pop over to the FLC now before I log off. You are just catching the project during the odd period when most of us are busy with vacations, etc. If you notice there hasn't been much activity on the project talk page either.Nrswanson (talk) 14:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm glad to say that the list got promoted to FL, thanks to the support of the above two, and other project people, and others too. So, OK, I was being paranoid. All I can say is that the list is in my view far better than it was when it first saw the light of day, and this improvement is mainly due to the suggestions made by you people and others. Thanks. Brianboulton (talk) 21:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks to you also for your hard work. Have you considered joining the project? I'm sure we would all be delighted to have you as a member! Best. -- Klein zach  00:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Kathleen Battle
Once again there is now conflict regarding the presentation of Battle's firing. A neutrality tag has been placed by myself because several pieces of information have been removed in favor of Battle fans. I would appriciate some of you expressing your opinions whatever they may be. I thought this whole this was solved since no one has complained in a long time.Nrswanson (talk) 23:11, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Salvatore Fisichella: Calling all Bellini experts!
I wonder if someone could have a look at Salvatore Fisichella? There are problems with the article (including a massive copy and paste effort). In particular it's claimed that Fisichella is  "the only tenor during the 20th century to have played and sung the major opera roles of . . . Bellini" . I've questioned this on the Salvatore Fisichella talk page.

The SPA creator of the article, Luis Miguel31, has also been editing Tenor repeatedly removing a Carreras Youtube link in favour of a Fisichella one. -- Klein zach  01:00, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There are also issues relating to the photos see . -- Klein zach  11:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Not only that, I think all three of them (Image:Salvatore Fisichella - I Puritani 1986.jpg * Image:Salvatore Fisichella-foto-Lucia di Lammermoor.jpg * Image:Salvatore Fisichella - close up.jpg) - Jay (talk) 11:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Have duly added my two cents re Fisichella on the talk page, although I wouldn't call myself a "Bellini expert". Re the tenor page... None of those links should be there. They all appear to be to copyrighted video material. (Ditto this link at the end of the article,, which has copyright audio material). Second of all they are in complete violation of the Wikipedia Manual of Style, e.g. "To hear an example of a Dramatic tenor (Franco Corelli in the role of Radames from Verdi's Aida), click on this link: Watch Here". Yuck! Voceditenore (talk) 11:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Re the photo. It cannot be used under fair use as Fisichella is alive and the copyright belongs to either the Met or the photographer. There are plenty of photos on Fisichella's site that appear to me "homemade", one of those should be used instead. Voceditenore (talk) 11:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Talking about photo, may I know, what is your definition of "homemade"? Self edited photos from DVDs i.e scenes? The last time I did that for Domingo, taken from Tosca and Turandot scenes, they were deleted by the admin (can’t remember their reasons). Not only that, I used my “homemade” album cover “Parsifal” for Domingo’s Plácido Domingo discography, it was deleted too. All are using low resolution with remarks “is used to illustrate discussion of the music/film in the article”. If photos from websites, album covers and opera scenes can be used, I would be very happy to re-instate all the photos that have been deleted from both of Domingo’s articles. I have to beg photos from Mr. Domingo office with written permission to be posted in his articles but why other articles can easily “homemade” any photos? Please don’t get me wrong, the reason I am saying all these is because I just don’t understand the procedure. Why some articles can get exemptions while some cannot. - Jay (talk) 12:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * By "homemade", I mean a photo of Fisichella taken by Fisichella himself (or one of his friends or relatives) which he could upload under a free license, not album covers or screen shots. By the way I've now placed Di-replaceable fair use tags on the three Fischiella photos that have been uploaded. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Music Project proposals
I've posted about the future direction of our Music Project 'step-mother' here. It's relevant to us because it involves a decision about whether or not a Music Project banner goes on all music article talk pages (and other things). I'd be grateful for opinions/comments. Thanks and regards. -- Klein zach  09:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Portal:Opera for month of August 2008
Please give your suggestion. Thanks - Jay (talk) 14:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Selected article: ?
 * Composer : Heinrich Marschner - born in August
 * Singer: Jenny Lind (Suggested by Kleinzach)
 * Selected picture : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3755_DSC_0425.JPG (Théâtre antique d'Orange) - summer opera festival held each year in August


 * Do you want an August premiere opera for the article? If so Lohengrin and Béatrice et Bénédict would be possibilities. -- Klein zach  15:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok then, however feel free to change if you guys have any other suggestions. - Jay (talk) 15:37, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Selected article: Lohengrin - premiere in August
 * Composer : Heinrich Marschner - born in August
 * Singer: Jenny Lind (Suggested by Kleinzach)
 * Selected picture : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3755_DSC_0425.JPG (Théâtre antique d'Orange) - summer opera festival held each year in August

Singer of the Month for August
Sorry all, this has slipped through the net since I've been away so much this month. August 1st now looms. Any suggestions?

If not, we could holdover the July singers who are still redlinked...


 * Contemporary tenors - Lawrence Brownlee and Vladimir Galouzine


 * 20th century tenors - Marcel Wittrisch and Herbert Ernst Groh

Or this other suggestion from last month - filling Australian gaps...


 * bass Malcolm McEachern
 * baritones Horace Stevens and Gregory Yurisich

Voceditenore (talk) 16:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Another suggestion:

Leocavallo role creators:
 * Fiorello Giraud the first Canio in Pagliacci
 * The husband and wife team:
 * Adelina Stehle, the first Nedda in Pagliacci (and the first Nannetta in Verdi's Falstaff)
 * Edoardo Garbin, the first Milio Dufresne in Zazà (and the first Fenton in Falstaff)
 * Eugenia Burzio the first Delia Terzaghi in Goffredo Mameli, one of the first performers of Fleanna in Zingari (very prominent in verismo opera in general, was Minnie in Italian premiere of La fanciulla del West, etc.)

Voceditenore (talk) 06:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've just done Marcel Wittrisch and Herbert Ernst Groh. Perhaps we can leave Lawrence Brownlee and Vladimir Galouzine in Can you help?


 * Seeing the name Eugenia Burzio makes me wonder whether we might do a 'Great sopranos that have somehow escaped the Wikipedia net' collection? Perhaps with Lina Bruna Rasa, Celestina Boninsegna, Eidé Norena,  Lotte Schöne, Olimpia Boronat and Oda Slobodskaya or whoever? -- Klein  zach  02:54, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

As I'm about to flee to Italia la bella, have gone for the Leoncavallo role creators. But agree the great sopranos would be good too. Perhaps for another month? Anyhow, feel free to change it. Voceditenore (talk) 13:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Kathleen Battle (redux)
It would be a big help if this article could have some input from members of the OP, especially the latest section of the talk page. Off to Italy.... Voceditenore (talk) 17:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Please help here everyone. There is now an edit war again on this page. There is a conflict over the neutrality of the article on Kathleen Battle in relation to the coverage of her firing from the Metropolitan Opera. There are no problems of civility in this discussion, but there are some suspect interpretations of WP:NPOV floating around and some Gaming the system by User:Hrannar. This user reverts or removes information that supposedly is a neutrality violations or violations of living person bio guidelines even when the info comes from multiple major news sources such as the New York Times and Time Magazine.Nrswanson (talk) 23:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sometimes the symptoms can be worse than the disease! Let's stop the edit war first - otherwise both Hrannar and Nrswanson will be blocked. I've suggested a cooling off period of 24 hours. -- Klein zach  01:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed and thank you for stepping in.Nrswanson (talk) 01:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Maestro/eyes please
Until recently the Maestro article focused on music and opera. (There was also a paragraph on similar middle eastern terms for 'music master' such as Ostad, Ustad etc.) An IP has now reverted to a two week old version, deleting a whole paragraph, removing an opera terms navigation box and putting a heading on the Talk page to say  "The scope of this article is not confined to opera" . See the talk page. -- Klein zach  02:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Read my comment about it in Talk:Maestro. And, to strengthen my fact, hit Ustaz from WIKI itself. I never heard of terms "Ostad, Ustad, Ostaz, Ustaz, Usta" are for Music. These are for Islamic Guru or Teacher or someone expert in Islamic! If we use direct translation, Ustaz means Guru (Teacher), true, but it is surely not A TEACHER in show biz! - Jay (talk) 12:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Oedipe à Colone or Œdipe à Colone?
Which is correct for the Antonio Sacchini opera? Someone has been (rather halfheartedly) changing Oedipe to Œdipe, though Œdipe à Colone is still a redirect to the Sophocles play Oedipus at Colonus. Grove give Oedipe but that may just be typographical convenience. -- Klein zach  01:06, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Since it is a French title, the ligature, Œ, is correct. See French_language, where it is explained that "The ligature œ is a mandatory contraction of oe in certain words. Some of these are native French words. . . . Œ is also used in words of Greek origin, as the Latin rendering of the Greek diphthong οι".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 02:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. If no-one disagrees I'll change it to Œdipe with the ligature. -- Klein zach  06:55, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * FWIW, the Oxford Dictionary of Opera has Œdipe. --GuillaumeTell 09:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've tried to move it without success, although I've made Œdipe à Colone a redirect to Oedipe à Colone. Is there an admin around? -- Klein zach  04:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Done this :) Moreschi (talk) 09:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia Signpost
Signpost is asking if anyone will handle the Wikiproject section, and I thought I'd have a go. I thought WikiProject Opera was an obvious first choice, so I was wondering if all of you were willing to be interviewed on this page? I'll edit it down afterwards to discussion highlights, and link to the full discussion. =) Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 08:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Would it be possible to hold off until we get our 5,000th article up? We are now on 4,982 4,912. Having an interview at that point would be a way of celebrating and producing some relevant (or irrelevant?) stats. (We actually talked about doing this before . . . ) -- Klein zach  09:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure! Do you have an estimated date for that? If it's soon, I'll start the interview now (I thought I'd do it here, and we'll want it to run a few days anyway so everyone can reply); but if it'll be a while, I'll wait until you're ready. =) Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 09:51, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe a couple of months. It's a bit slow now with the holidays but it should pick up again in September - also some of the main editors are away, VocediTenore, maybe Folantin and a few others - so perhaps we should look at the situation again this time next month. How about that? -- Klein zach  11:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay! The offer's open, so just let me know on my talk page if I don't notice it myself =) I'd appreciate a little bit of warning, as it will take a little time to do the interview right =). Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 11:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Singer of the Month for September
I'm going to be away for virtually all of August. Any suggestions for this month? I'd rather not wait until August 28th when I get back. Voceditenore (talk) 16:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a group of much-red linked French 19th century singers that might be worth tackling: Zulma Bouffar, José Dupuis, Adèle Isaac, Juliette Simon-Girard, Emile-Alexandre Taskin, Delphine Ugalde, Marguerite Ugalde - most of them associated with Offenbach. -- Klein zach  00:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)