Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 70

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Massenet - Le Cid (opera)
What does everyone think? Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 16:28, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Portal:Opera for month of October 2008
New section * Selected audio for October:
 * Selected article: Porgy and Bess
 * Composer : Gioachino Rossini
 * Singer: Maria Callas
 * Selected picture : Image:Grand escalier de l'opéra Garnier.jpg

* Selected audio for November:


 * Selected audio for December:

Please let me know before 29th if you have any other suggestion. Thanks - Jay (talk) 01:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Apart from Composer : Giacomo Puccini. They seem fine to me. The thing about Puccini is that December will be the 150th anniversary of his birth and there will be a fair amount of press coverage, etc. Perhaps it would better to save that article for December's portal. Rossini is a possible alternative or perhaps Jacques Offenbach. The photo is fabulous, by the way. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Point taken. - Jay (talk) 07:05, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Given that, maybe we should switch out the song too, saving it for December. I could get some Rossini together, or we could use the Massenet? If you don't mind abridgements (to fit on a 4 minute cylinder) there's a couple good recordings and extracts from the William Tell Overture. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 09:06, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree but make it ready before 29th. - Jay (talk) 09:24, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's] the list of things by Rossini. Get me a short list by tomorrow and I'll have it done by the 29th. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 10:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not really "into" Rossini's, I cant tell any of his famous arias but we could use Jules Massenet's "Pleurez, pleurez, mes yeux" for October audio. However, if you coud get "O souverain, o juge, o père" (Massenet's Le Cid) or "Ah, fuyez douce image" Massenet's Manon would be much better - its like extra bonus! - Jay (talk) 09:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, sure, there's several recordings of songs from Le Cid. I'm sure I can find a couple more. Might I suggest we do a sort of double-bill of Le Cid, with both O souverain and Pleurez? Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 11:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, thats what I have in mind - Jay (talk) 12:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Actually, checking, there doesn't seem to be a recording of O souverain in the archives I currently know of. But Manon works. =) Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 12:51, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added two more Manon recordings. How about the Wagner for November, and I'll see about getting a bit more Wagner? Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 04:13, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Looking for famous audio (in ogg format)
Shoemaker's Holiday or others, is it possible for you to get famous arias audio such as below (and many more of course)? I been thinking, it is best to feature famous arias recording in our portal.


 * Recondita armonia, Celeste Aida, Ch'ella mì creda libero, E lucevan le stele, Habanera, In questa reggia, La donna è mobile, Largo al factotum, Libiamo ne' lieti calici, Nessun dorma, Non piangere Liù, O mio babbino caro, Ombra mai fù, Quando me n’vò, Svegliatevi nel core, Toreador Song, Un di felice eterea, Una furtiva lagrima, Vesti la Giubba, Vissi d'arte, È la solita storia del pastore, C'est toi? ... C'est moi!, Donna Non Vidi Mai, Che Gelida Manina, Viva il Vivo Spumeggiante, Ah sì, ben mio, La fleur que tu m'avais jetée and many more - Jay (talk) 02:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I was actually trying for Una furtiva lagrima, However, only the Caruso recording seems at all acceptable: All the others switch pizzicato string sections for arco ones, or, in one case, a harp substituted for the strings. One of the arco recordings managed to pull off a musically acceptable accompaniment, but I didn't think it was accurate enough to the composer's intent. Kleinzach has stated that he'sd rather snot see too much of any one singer, so that may have to be pushed down in the queue a bit.
 * Most of the others should be fine, although luck of the draw will, of course, come into play. I would suggest we mix in a few highlights from lesser-known operas, such as the Le Cid above.
 * My one request is this: The opera project has not liked some of the things I've found in the past, such as the Fulda recordings. To avoid this problem with things that can be substantially more work, I would ask that the opera project assist by pointing out recordings from sites and lists I provide them with, as a pre-selection. =) Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 13:02, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Some possibilities:


 * Recondita armonia - I think this is a bit over-amplified. It'll probably sound fine dropped a few decibels.


 * Leo Slezak - E lucevan le stelle

Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 18:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Composer of the Month for October: some options
Some possibilities. (Note: I would find it extremely difficult myself to create even stubs for the operas in Option 1). --Folantin (talk) 09:45, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

1. Classical era

 * Pietro Alessandro Guglielmi (1728-1804): La sposa fidele


 * Florian Leopold Gassmann (1729-1774): L'amore artigiano


 * Anton Schweitzer (1735-1787): Alceste


 * Giovanni Paisiello (1741-1816): La molinara


 * Johann Abraham Peter Schulz (1747-1800): Athalie (1785)


 * Christian Gottlob Neefe (1748-1798): Adelheit von Veltheim (1780)


 * Peter Winter (1754-1825): Der unterbrochene Operfest (1796)

2. British 20th century

 * Harrison Birtwistle (1934- ): Yan Tan Tethera


 * Benjamin Britten (1913-1976): Let's Make an Opera, The Little Sweep


 * Peter Maxwell Davies (1934– ): The Doctor of Myddfai, The Martyrdom of Saint Magnus


 * Frederick Delius (1862–1934): Fennimore and Gerda


 * Gustav Holst (1874-1934): At the Boar's Head, The Perfect Fool, The Wandering Scholar


 * Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872-1958): Sir John in Love, The Poisoned Kiss

3. Hindemith/Prokofiev

 * Paul Hindemith (1895-1963): Die Harmonie der Welt, Hin und Zurück, Lehrstück, The Long Christmas Dinner, Wir bauen eine Stadt


 * Sergei Prokofiev (1891–1953): Maddalena, The Story of a Real Man

Discussion
Isn't the Birtwhistle typo'd? That translates as "one one three", I think the second word should probably be "Tan" (two). Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 13:33, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right. I've just changed it. It wouldn't have affected the page name anyway since it was "piped" to the correct name. Cheers. --Folantin (talk) 13:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I could help out with British 20th. The others are a bit out of my ken. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:25, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer the C20 Brits too. Plus, IIRC another member (Peter Cohen?) expressed an interest in Vaughan Williams earlier this year. --Folantin (talk) 16:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Folantin, tomorrow's October 1st. Maybe it would be a good idea to put the C20 Brits in the box above, pending any last minute changes or suggestions? Otherwise, CoM section on the main OP page will automatically turn up blank. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. I've added Tippett's Robin Hood (the only one of his operas without an article). --Folantin (talk) 13:43, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ugh. Hate Tippet. =) Mind, I've only seen his The Knot Garden, but it was my worst experience in an opera house ever, made worse by the singers actually being extremely good. Waste. Of. Scottish Opera. Resources. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 23:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Singer of the Month for October, 2008
This really got lost in the shuffle or should I say kerfuffle? Unless anyone has any suggestions I propose to hold over this months' group:

Distinguished sopranos who still lack Wikipedia articles:

Eugenia Burzio, Lina Bruna Rasa, Celestina Boninsegna, Eidé Norena, Lotte Schöne, and Oda Slobodskaya.

(I've taken out Olimpia Boronat who now has an article.) Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Benjamin J. Martin
This article is at AfD, if any members want to comment, particularly those familiar with the Australian opera scene. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Le Villi

 * ♦I've moved this back out of the archive because someone had just posted on this topic today and hadn't received an answer yet.

There is a problem here. I won't take part to the debate (I have some limitations of time and prefer to spend it to improve it.wiki), but maybe somebody could like to read this page and correct a statement ascribed to Puccini. Anyway, you can find me on it.wiki. Thanks. Al Pereira(talk) 01:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Not my field, but VoceDiTenore my be able to help when she returns at the end of August. -- Klein zach  05:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This should be capitalized as Le villi but someone has changed it. -- Klein zach  02:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, Le Villi is the correct capitalization --Al Pereira(talk) 22:48, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please explain why you think this. Just saying 'X is correct' doesn't help us understand your opinion. Julian Budden in Grove gives 'Le villi' (small 'v'). Oxford also give the same capitalization. Our practice here is to follow these works when there is any doubt. -- Klein zach  23:12, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Dieter Schickling (Giacomo Puccini. Catalogue of the Works, the most authoritative source about Puccini's works, except for some very recent acquisitions); Michele Girardi (his monography about GP); Julian Budden himself in his well known book; see also the bibliography on this opera in the Bibliografia degli scritti su Giacomo Puccini ("Studi Pucciniani 1, Centro Studi Giacomo Puccini, p. 193) where 14 essays or articles are listed: always "Le Villi", never "Le villi"; and Michael Kaye in The Unknown Puccini (see the Ad una morta chapter); just to name the most recent sources, otherwise I could add Mosco Carner, Fedele D'amico, "Quaderni Pucciniani" etc etc. Anyway, writing in your talk, I also linked to another talk where I better explained my point. I realize that I was very concise in this opera project talk. --Al Pereira(talk) 01:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you move back the title? --Al Pereira(talk) 02:50, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

"Villi" is normally treated as a proper noun in Italian when rendering the title. An operatic example of a group being given proper noun status would be I Lombardi alla prima crociata. It's a problematic area with a fair amount of variation in both Italian and English. Non operatic examples would be groups like the "Muse" Muses, "Sirene" (Sirens) and "Furie" (Furies)). The word "ninfa" (nymph) is not capitalized but the various sub-groups of nymphs are, e.g. "Pleiadi" Pleiades. In this (isolated) case, I'm inclined to give more authority to the Centro studi Giacomo Puccini: Catalogo delle opere teatrali than to Grove. But that's just my personal opinion. I'll copy this to the Le villi talk page. Perhaps other OP members who have views on this could weigh in there. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:09, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Update: following discussion on the talk page the article has been moved to Le Villi

Featured sounds
I'd really appreciate if WikiProject Opera would participate in voting on and nominating featured sounds - I don't mind if you nominate the ones I've restored that haven't yet been, in fact, I'd probably preferr it - it just looks bad when one name predominates as nominator, but if I don't nominate them, then there aren't candidates for that day, and there's no reason for people to go to Featured sounds. So, you know... have to try and do the lesser of two evils, and that's nominating. But if WikiProject Opera would take over opera nominations, then it wouldn't be so bad =) Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 13:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The Met category
User:Markhh has added "Metropolitan Opera category" in more than 20 articles including "oil and gas company", opera singers etc. I am currently revert all the changes he made - Jay (talk) 05:14, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Some of the articles were clearly properly placed, including List of performers at the Metropolitan Opera and Giulio Gatti-Casazza. Badagnani (talk) 05:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Not only that, the user seems to delete some of the "important" categories that we placed in there such as "Operatic soprano" etc. However, the categories he added into "The Met" related articles such as Metropolitan Opera Radio (Sirius XM) and few others are ok - Jay (talk) 05:23, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Please explain why these links are improper to a Met category. Texaco was associated with the Met for 60+ years. I did not intend to delete any other categories and would have no interest in doing so. If I did it was by mistake. Markhh (talk) 05:31, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Just take Caruso and Domingo for example; what is their association with The Met except for performing there? Just because of they have received honorary “award” etc from The Met, that doesn’t mean they “fall” into The Met category. However, the reason why I called you to discuss here is to get opinion from Project opera members. If majority agree with you for some reason, you can always add them on back. Before that, please do not add any. Thanks - Jay (talk) 05:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree regarding singers. Caruso was a major part of the Met's history and to me an exception, but can see why singers/performers should not be included. That could easily get out of hand. (I had planned to remove Domingo and Fleming before you deleted the others.) Major participants in the Met's history, such as Bing, Levine, et al seem appropriate to me. I'm looking forward to members' comments. Best wishes, Mark Markhh (talk) 05:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I see that didn't delete any cats, thank goodness. On the Christine Nilsson page I had changed the order of the cats to make them alphabetical. Is this not right? Perhaps cats are better in order of significance? Markhh (talk) 06:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes most of the ones in the cat are clearly and directly relevant to it. By the way, Jay, I reverted your edit at Mapleson Cylinders. First of all, the Mapleson Cylinders are directly relevant to this category and an important part of its history. Secondly, in the process of undoing Markhh's edits, you completely deleted a valid reference, as well as the live link to the text in a second reference. Jay, I also disagree with many of your other removals, especially the articles on the various Met directors, e.g. Gelb, Bing, etc. They were/are key figures in its history. I would agree that putting individual operas, singers and conductors, even ones closely associated with the Met, is probably not a good idea, unless they held an official position there, e.g. Giulio Gatti-Casazza who was a director of the Met. Ditto Texaco, although a separate article on the Texaco broadcasts would be OK. The Met category is useful for for readers. It doesn't impact at all on the OP category system. Can we please be more thoughtful about this. Voceditenore (talk) 06:37, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree to include the category to people who hold positions (direct association) at the Met. I will restore back to those artcles only. But as for opera articles, singers and conductors, I believe it is not suitable at all. - Jay (talk) 06:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a very good idea. These are the ones that I think should definitely be restored:
 * Directors of the Met: Peter Gelb, Henry Eugene Abbey, Heinrich Conried, Rudolf Bing, Schuyler Chapin, Göran Gentele, Joseph Volpe, Edward Johnson, James Levine (he's the current Music director of the Met, and it's what he is best known for, read the lead sentence).
 * Broadcasters: Milton Cross, Margaret Juntwait, Peter Allen (US broadcaster) (all of whom are primarily known as Met broadcasters, again read the leading sentences in their articles.)
 * On a general note, I don't see why individual editors restoring the categories to these articles require some kind of  'prior approval' by the Opera Project. If there are some  individual  cases in the future where there might be some disagreement about the cat, why not simply take it to the article's talk page? Voceditenore (talk) 07:06, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It is better to discuss about it in a single talkpage (here) instead of talking about it in multiple talk pages, like in this case, the changes have been made to many artcles. Besides, not everybody read article talk page. This is also to avoid edit warring - Jay (talk) 07:15, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate all of the comments. I certainly intended no controversy by adding a new Met category. I would also like to make a case that the operas Königskinder, Trittico, Fanciulla, Vanessa, and Antony are also appropriate. They were written for, and premiered at the Met. Antony, at the least, especially so. It is indelibly linked with the impressions made at the Met's Lincoln Center opening and so a key point in Met history. I'll be happy to go by the consensus here, however. Best wishes Markhh (talk) 07:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd be leery of categorizing even those operas, frankly. Perhaps one way 'round this is to create an annotated list of major premieres at the Met, by which I mean operas that either had their world premiere or their US premiere there. Then put that list in the Met Category. Examples of what could go on the list...


 * World premieres: Madame Sans-Gêne (opera), The Ghosts of Versailles, The First Emperor, The Great Gatsby (opera) (Actually there is no article on the opera at the moment. This is a redirect to the novel, as is The Great Gatsby (Harbison). I have no idea what's going on there), Königskinder, Il trittico, La fanciulla del West, Vanessa (opera), Antony and Cleopatra (opera), etc. etc.


 * US premieres: Fedora (opera), Boris Godunov (opera), Eugene Onegin (opera), Cyrano de Bergerac (Alfano) etc. etc.


 * Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:26, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * To me it is not appropriate to categorized them as “The opera house” because it could be misleading as if like they “belong” to the opera house – even User:Markhh actually meant to refer to the “premiere” location. Premiere itself in this case has 2 meaning, first, to refer to the opera debut location (the first time) and second, the first performance in other countries (US, Europe etc). Which premiere do you guys plan to categorize?
 * About “US premiere” and “World Premiere”, I have to disagree. If we want to use a “country”, it must apply to others too especially in this context where opera is not originated from US, unless if we specifically want to refer to The Met only (in which I have to disagree, why "the Met" only? If we want to do, we do it for all). The First Emperor had its debut at The Met, it does make a sense if we categorized it under Category: Metropolitan Opera premiere NOT Category: Metropolitan Opera, but how about other operas where the first performance was at alla Scala, couple years later it had its "Germany" debut at Bayreuth and 10 years later, US debut at The Met? (Example only)
 * We have to be very clear, do we want to categorize by country (US, Italy, France) or by Continent (EU, North & South America) or by opera house (The Met, alla Scala etc)?
 * In my opinion, if we want to categorize opera articles by premiere location, it is appropriate to do it by opera house (the very first performance) and then we can do subcategories for debut in other countries – breakdown by country. It is a lot of work but it worth the while if we do it right from the first time. - Jay (talk) 10:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment I think you've completely misunderstood me, Jay. I wasn't proposing new categories or sub-categories for opera articles at all. Nor was anyone else. I was proposing creating a single List/article on which all the Met's important opera premieres (world and US) could be listed, with their dates and any other brief relevant comments (e.g. it inaugurated the new house, or was specifically commissioned by the Met. It would be similar to List of performers at the Metropolitan Opera. That single List/article about the premieres would be in the Met category, in the same way that List of performers at the Metropolitan Opera currently is. Voceditenore (talk) 10:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the idea of a separate list page of Met world premieres is a good one. I can see that adding operas is to Met category is a little dicey. I've not seen any further comment regarding the official Met broadcasters. As mentioned above, these are people whose fame is almost completely related to their long associations with the Met. Also I think Toscanini should definitely be added. While he did not have the official title, he was in all respects the music director of the Met. Working with Gatti-Casazza who expressly brought him to revamp the Met's orchestra and repertoire, he influenced the company's level of performance and rep etc. Gentele too should be added. He died before his first season began but his association with the company is strong and in his short time he created a new production and laid out other ideas. After that I think the Met cat would be complete. Best, Markhh (talk) 17:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't make things difficult. If you want a subcat "Operas premiered at the Metropolitan Opera," just make one. Just don't remove articles from the Met category that were properly categorized, like those mentioned above. Badagnani (talk) 17:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment Re adding articles to Category:Metropolitan Opera. I'd personally hold off adding Toscanini until the article about him has more (referenced) information about his relation to the Met. At the moment, here's all it says:
 * Outside of Europe, he conducted at the Metropolitan Opera in New York (1908–1915) as well as the New York Philharmonic Orchestra (1926–1936).

Otherwise, you risk just about every conductor who ever worked there being added. Gentele is already added so that's OK, and again, I see nothing wrong with adding the broadcasters I mentioned above. Just go ahead and do it. Category:Metropolitan Opera is not a sub-category of Category:Opera so we won't have problems of those articles being bot-bannered with our project, which would be inappropriate. To avoid confusion and possible mis-categorization, I'd recommend that you add a brief explanation on the Category:Metropolitan Opera and Category:Metropolitan Opera world premieres pages explaining what the scope of each category is and isn't.

An annotated List of operas premiered at the Met (in addition to the sub-cat) is still a possibility and would have the advantage that you could also include US premieres on it. Something to think about for the future. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 09:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You are right about Toscanini. The article doesn't support it currently. Thanks for your suggestions re adding definitions to the Met category and for a list page of premieres. These are great ideas. BTW, I spun off the opera section of Goyescas onto a new page: Goyescas (opera). I tried to follow the format you guys have used on similar pages. Best wishes and thanks, Markhh (talk) 08:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Manon
Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 23:59, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I think Act II's right? I don't actually know Manon that well. (I want to now, but don't yet.) Bonus: We finally have a recording for Farrar. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 04:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Lyndi Williams
This article is being considered for deletion here, if any members wish to comment. Voceditenore (talk) 03:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)