Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 75

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Dom Sebastiano
The plot summary mentions "the Moor princess Zayda, whom he had rescued from being burnt at stake for trying to escape the monastery she had resided in since her conversion to Christianity" - Shouldn't that be "nunnery"? Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 20:05, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The Opera Rara synopsis gives monastery. She hadn't become a nun. I've got my programme somewhere from the ROH concert performance by Opera Rara. I'll check, but I'm pretty sure it's a monastery. Voceditenore (talk) 17:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In Italian it isn't Dom Sebastiano but Don Sebastiano. Dom Sebastiano is a mixture of Portuguese and Italian. --Al Pereira(talk) 05:48, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The original work was written in French, where the title is "Dom Sébastien, roi de Portugal". It was later adapted to Italian as "Don Sebastiano".  The main page has it right; I think this is just a typo/spelling error here on the talk page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iglew (talk • contribs) 06:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Puccini role creators
I just completed a study to determine which Puccini role creators could easily yield articles and which couldn't. I searched in Grove, A concise biographical dictionary of singers by Riemens, and Operissimo.com for articles on every Puccini role creator. As a result I unwikified several red links that are not likely to yield articles since they weren't covered in any of those sources, and I wikified several singers that could easily yield articles. So basically, if its red now then a viable article should be easy to create. I will note that two of this months singers of the month did not make the list of viable articles: Jean-Francisque Delmas from La Rondine and Alessandro Polonini from Manon Lescaut. Of course it's very possible that resources may exist to cover these two but in my experience singers who aren't covered in at least one of the three above sources are not likely to yield an article. We may want to select two other role creators to replace them. On a side note, I have recently created articles on Giuseppe Cremonini, Gustave Huberdeau and Rita Fornia.Nrswanson (talk) 20:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I Just discoved that the French wikipedia has an article on Francisque Delmas: . Curiously it doesn't even mention La Rondine.Nrswanson (talk) 20:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Delmas also went by the name of Jean-François Delmas. I'm pretty sure there's an entry for "Delmas, Jean-François" in Grove. I've got enough to make a viable stub for Polonini. It probably won't grow much unless one of us spends a lot of time in libraries, but it will at least give readers and idea who he was. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You are right. What name should we go with for the article title? Should we use what's in Grove?Nrswanson (talk) 06:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * When in doubt perhaps go with Grove, but be sure to create a re-direct for the other version of Delmas' name and include it in the article too. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not necessarily going to create the article. I was just asking for the project's sake. I have a pretty full schedule this week and won't be on here much after tommorow.Nrswanson (talk) 06:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It turns out the La rondine role table/premiere cast was wrong. After seeing that Amadeus Almanac listed a tenor, Charles Delmas, for Gobin and noting that Grove didn't even mention La rondine in the Jean-François Delmas entry, I checked with Al. It turns out that Gobin was a tenor (not bass-baritone) role and was created by Charles (not Jean-François) Delmas. Charles isn't really worth an article, so I've removed that bit from the SoM list. Meanwhile Jean-François Delmas is worth an article, but not in the Puccini context. Voceditenore (talk) 17:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for catching that.Nrswanson (talk) 06:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The role creators for Puccini presumably survived into the age of commercial recording. May I have a brief list of, say, the twenty most important that I can research? Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 18:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Singer of the Month December
I'll be away 'til the 2nd of December, so people need to think who they might like and fill in the form above, once you've decided. I'd suggest something not too ambitious given the Christmas holidays and all. Best Voceditenore (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

If no one objects, I personally wouldn't mind continuing to do another batch of Puccini role creators. Here are my suggestions:
 * Edgar
 * Romilda Pantaleoni "Tigrana"
 * Antonio Magini-Coletti "Frank"
 * Tosca
 * Enrico Giordano "Spoletta"
 * Madama Butterfly
 * Gaetano Pini-Corsi "Goro"
 * Tina Alasia "Cio-Cio San's mother"
 * La fanciulla del West
 * Albert Reiss "Nick"

Many of these singers have articles in Grove. Those that don't I already have resources on. Most of them sang in other premiers as well so they will fill in holes in other random places.Nrswanson (talk) 18:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Pantaleoni also created Desdemona in Otello and Santuzza in Cavalleria. I would guess that makes her the most prominent of the set here. Iglew (talk) 19:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Oops. The Cav page says someone else was the original Santuzza. My source for Pantaleoni is Charles Osborne, but he also says 1891, so I guess that's a mistake. Still Desdemona though. Iglew (talk) 19:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Pantaleoni was known for Santuzza (she did the role for La Scala's first production) but she wasn't the original. She did a few other premiers in less important operas and was also the title role in the first production of Ponchielli’s Marion Delorme in addition to Desdemona.


 * Antonio Magini-Coletti was in the world premiere of at Mascagni's Le maschere at La Scala and was in a bunch of American premieres (and I think in some world premiers of less important operas) at the Met. Coletti was also one of the most frequently recorded artists between 1902-1908 which is basically the beginning of recorded sound. So he's important for that too.


 * Enrico Giordano was in the world premier of Nicola De Giosa's Il Conte di San Romano and sang in lead roles at La Scala for many years.


 * Gaetano Pini-Corsi is the brother of Antonio Pini-Corsi. He was in the original Sibera with his brother, although his name isn't on the article so I'll have to investigate that. I'm pretty sure the cast list of the wiki article is wrong somewhere. He was also in the original production of Luigi Mancinelli's Paolo e Francesca. And he was a regular at La Scala for a long time.


 * Tina Alasia was in a leading role in the world premiere of Giacomo Orefice's Mosè and had a major career in Europe and South America in both concerts and operas.


 * Albert Reiss created Nick in La fanciulla del West (1910), the Broom-maker in Humperdinck’s Königskinder (1910), Nial in Parker’s Mona (1912) and Richard in De Koven’s Canterbury Pilgrims (1917). He also was in a bunch of U.S. premiers. He sang in over a 1,000 performances at the Met and basically was one of the big guys at the house for a good while.


 * That about sums up the highlights that I know of. Reiss, Pantaleoni, and Magini-Coletti are definitely major singers. The others are notable but less so. Nrswanson (talk) 20:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Composer of the Month December
Reminder that this needs deciding too. As with the SoM I'd suggest something not too ambitious given the Christmas holidays. Best Voceditenore (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * We should probably finish off various bits and pieces in December before we change the CotM format in January. For instance, there are two Prokofievs without an article, two Hindemiths, one Dvorak.--Folantin (talk) 17:41, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added those five. If anybody has any other "leftover" operas by major composers they can add them. I'll probably try to finish off the Vivaldis in December too. Unfortunately, I haven't had much time recently. --Folantin (talk) 11:07, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Eyes
I usually check these daily (but can't while I'm away): They're worth keeping an eye on, especially the new articles so that they don't slip under the OP radar. Many of the ones by newbies lack cats and banners. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:58, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
 * User:AlexNewArtBot/OperaSearchResult - Bot that searches for new possibly opera-related articles.
 * Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:Operas - Tracks recent changes in all articles in Category:Operas

Infoboxes for musician issue - again
A member of NY project (User:Richard Arthur Norton), has brought up the issue of "infoboxes for musician" and he has posted this in several projects including the WikiProject Council-New rules involving removal of infoboxes for musicians. It actually started with an article of a composer from New York, Milton Adolphus. The infobox in the article has been deleted and this member insisted that all New Yorkers article to have infobox. Even though the argument is not related to us at the moment, I am sure somehow it will affect us in the future. It is because they were talking about "Musician" and "Infobox".

The discussion about it is in Individual WikiProjects are deleting Infoboxes and in Milton Adolphus talkpage - Jay (talk) 05:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The discussion has now moved to the village pump. You may all be interested in reading my new essay at Disinfoboxes.Nrswanson (talk) 19:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Update Shortly after arriving at the Village Pump, the discussion died an inconclusive death and has now been archived. - Voceditenore (talk) 10:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Category:Operatic tenors - needs checking
I had a quick look at the list of singers in Category:Operatic tenors. I noticed that some of them are probably not "opera" tenors while many of the articles are too short until it hard to determine who they really are and whether they deserve an article in Wiki. However, I need your opinion about these 3 singers, are they really operatic tenors, or singers in "tenor’s" voice range.
 * Peter Auty yes - sings for English National Opera and Glyndebourne Voceditenore (talk) 17:49, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Bulbul (singer) marginal - but suggest keeping in the cat for now
 * Mario Frangoulis yes - classically trained and has sung in some operas although mostly does musicals now. Has sung West Side Story at La Scala Voceditenore (talk) 17:49, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I have not finished checking but there are many articles like this under operatic tenor’s category. - Jay (talk) 16:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Luigi Antinori - yes sang a lot in Handel operas Voceditenore (talk) 17:49, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Opera companies by country
Interested editors might want to look at Categories for discussion/Log/2008 December 1; it is suggested that all categories opera companies]] be renamed to. This discussion started on 1 December 2008, apparently without much subsequent interest. Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, all silent since December 6th. If members have strong feelings one way or another, do participate in the discussion. I'm not sure how long they keep these proposals open. Voceditenore (talk) 09:12, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Update: The result of the discussion was: No consensus to rename. Voceditenore (talk) 11:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Alban Berg Navbox
User:Pigsonthewing has recently created a navbox for Operas by Alban Berg, e.g. Lulu (opera). Although we don't normally use them unless the composer has at least 3 opera articles on WP, I suppose it's OK. But perhaps someone could add this to it Image:Alban Berg Bueste Schiefling 01.jpg? At the moment the box with only two operas and no image looks pretty pointless in the articles. Voceditenore (talk) 16:28, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the navigation box Berg operas seems quite unnecessary. It was also created with a major flaw (the backlink pointed to Giordano operas, and the years of the premières were missing. I immediately corrected the backlink and I have now added the years and the image above. I bate my breath for . Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:34, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Category:Singing teachers and Category:Voice teachers
Is there a need for both? I notice that each of them contains classical/operatic voice teachers (but different ones), so they don't appear to be serving different functions. Voceditenore (talk) 16:43, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I personally think singing is better and more specific. "Voice teacher" could also be applied to vocal coaches for actors doing spoken roles (for dialects etc.) or to speech therapists.Nrswanson (talk) 22:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree. I've moved some that were exclusively singing teachers into that category and left those who were more general voice teachers (or who taught both) in the category Voice teachers. But I added the Singing teacher cat to those who appear to have taught both. Voceditenore (talk) 10:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Il re pastore: Media
his own recording of Aminta's aria "L'amerò, sarò costante" to Il re pastore. I because it is in my opinion a sub-standard rendition of this aria; for a more professional rendition see this version. The recording by Mr Senseless is in the wrong fach, accompanied by piano instead of an orchestra, his singing in general sounds strained and the ornaments lack any clarity; it is also two minutes shorter than it should be. While this may be appreciated at a Hauskonzert with friends, it falls way below the standard required for inclusion in an encyclopedia. I'm sorry if this come across as rather harsh criticism of this recording, but Wikipedia should strive for higher standards. I would like to hear other editors' opinion on whether this piece should stay in the article or not. Crossposted from Talk:Il re pastore. Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:09, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I can only answer on general principles because [a] I don't have ogg on my PC and [b] the Mozart Archive site appears to be down at the moment. But assuming a proper recording is freely available via an external link, the amateur file is superfluous at best. Worse though, it gives a completely false version of what the aria is supposed to sound like since it's supposed to be sung by a soprano and has been cut by a third. How does that benefit the reader or add to their understanding of the work in general? The only possible reason for including a file like that would be if the singer were highly notable, which isn't the case here. I agree that Wikipedia should strive for higher standards. Voceditenore (talk) 12:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)