Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 77

Archives Table of Contents

Potentially useful bot for the Opera Project
I've come upon ArticleAlertbot, which has been created to "notify WikiProjects if any of their articles need attention". It seems to cover Prod, AfD, CfD, candidates and nominations for FA/GA, peer review, etc., etc. The description of what it does is here. Signing up for the bot could enable us to deal with, uh, well-meant activity by editors not connected to the Opera Project. We'd need to subscribe using the instructions at User:ArticleAlertbot/Subscription (which makes my eyes glaze over at present, I'm afraid). What do y'all think? --GuillaumeTell 17:35, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Extremely useful! Thanks for finding this. I had a look at the subscription page, and it seems pretty simple, provided we just take the default values. I'm going to be bold and subscribe for the OP. After its first run, we can decide if we want to change any of the default values. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:40, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Update: You'll find the new "alerts" section here. (It will take a few days for anything to show up.) I've also added two further sections beneath it which members might find useful - one with a link to the new article bot search results and one for recent changes to articles in Category:Operas. Voceditenore (talk) 19:16, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Article naming criteria
As a recent Wikipedia user, I had done some page moves of established articles, and especially: (Manuel del Pópulo Vicente García moved to Manuel García father , Manuel Patricio Rodríguez García moved to Manuel García son  , Poliuto moved to Poliuto (Les Martyrs), and, finally, Tenor altino moved to tenore contraltino. All these moves have been reverted as they do not conform to the naming practices used by WikiProject Opera.

Now, I think that these practices  do not appear very consistent, and I should like to get some explanation.

For instance, I have verified there exists an article named Farinelli, and only a redirecting to Farinelli if one searches for his (partial) baptism name "Carlo Broschi". I have also verified there exists another article named Maria Callas and not even a redirecting from her baptism name "Sofia Cecelia Kalos". The same thing happens outside WikiProject Opera, where I found, as mere examples, an article named Greta Garbo, and only a redirecting to Greta Garbo if one searches for Greta Lovisa Gustafsson, and another article named Marilyn Monroe, and not even a redirecting to that article if one searches for Marilyn's baptism name "Norma Jean Baker".

If all that is true, I do wonder why there should be an article named after a thoroughly unknown (an real Martian, to the best of my knowledge!) Manuel del Pópulo Vicente García, and no article named Manuel García, after the way the first protagonist of Almaviva, and Maria Malibran and Pauline Viardot's father used to call himself and to be called during his artistic life; and since he had also a son baptized  Manuel Patricio Rodríguez García, but always referred to as Manuel García son, I wonder why there ought not to be an article bearing that name, and why the article related to his father ought not to be renamed "Manuel García father", the exact actual common term which has been in use for almost two centuries to refer to him.

I think that, in all these cases and in the similar ones, stage-names, nom de plume, names anyhow gone down in history, ought to prevail and baptism names only to be redirected from.

As for Poliuto, since there exist two slightly different operas, Poliuto and Les martyrs, and only one article, named after Poliuto, I had felt perfectly correct to indicate by Poliuto's side also the title of its French version, which now remains without an article of its own, so that I hope some expert in Donizetti history will soon fill the gap.

Last, but not least, there comes the article "Tenor altino": this name is a queer mixture of English (tenor) and would-be Italian (altino, which could actually mean "fairly tall" or "not exceedingly tall", but whose meaning, anyway, has nothing at all in common with singing, for in Italy "alto" is not synonymous with contralto, whereas "high" referred to singing is commonly translated into "acuto"). In Wikipedia there already exist two voices and a half which employ both Italian terms ("tenore di grazia", "tenore robusto" and "spinto") and thus, as I had never heard or read of a type of singer named “tenor altino”, whereas in Italy we will certainly say “tenore contraltino” just to mean what Wikipedia calls “tenor altino”, I had thought it was not incorrect, nay opportune, to redirect the article. Of course, I don’t know English very well and if a significant usage of “tenor altino” was reported (and I am very curious to get some information about it), the reversion would seem, to me too, perfectly justified. Best whishes. Jeanambr (talk)--Jeanambr (talk)--Jeanambr (talk) 17:23, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Just a couple of points as I will be shortly be going abroad for a week, and perhaps other members could could contribute to the discussion.


 * 1) Re the Garcias (father and son). The main English reference books in this area including the Oxford Dictionary of Opera and general reference works like the Encyclopedia Britannica list them respectively as "Garcia, Manuel del Popolo Vicente" and "Garcia, Manuel Patricio Rodriguez". You do occasionally find them referred to as Manuel Garcia I and II, but not as the titles of encyclopedia entries. The use of "Manuel Garcia (father)" and "Manuel Garcia (son)" may be common in Italy, but it is extremely rare in English. See also this page for the number of Manuel Garcia's who have articles on the English Wikipedia.
 * 2) Re Poliuto/Les Martyrs. Both have separate entries in my Oxford Dictionary of Opera. There are several cases where operas have two versions in two different languages with two different titles. But unless or until two separate articles exist for those versions on Wikipedia, the article title is normally the title of the first composed version, unless there are compelling reasons not to do so. The opera article can still be found under its alternative names via re-directs, just as happens in paper dictionaries. Adding the alternative opera title to the actual article title is impractical and contrary to the way all other opera articles are named here, e.g. Les vêpres siciliennes not Les vêpres siciliennes (I vespri siciliani). To see how impractical the dual article title can be when carried to its logical conclusion see Otto mesi in due ore.
 * 3) Re Tenor altino. Again, even though this is a hybrid of English and Italian (such hybrids are common in many languages), it is the term used in major reference works like New Grove Dictionary of Opera‎. Whether such a phrase sounds strange in Italian or could also mean a tenor who's not very tall in Italian is not really relevant on the English Wikipedia. Italian musical terms which are commonly used intact and have no anglicized equivalent do exist in English, e.g. tenore di grazia. But in this case, an English speaker would be more likely to search for "tenor altino" than "tenore contraltino".
 * Voceditenore (talk) 19:02, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course, I can't help but be wholly satisfied! As a penalty for my presumpion, I shall search after all mentions I have done of "Manuel García father", and I shall myself get them corrected with the right baptism name. I still expect some WikiProject Opera user keen on Donizetti will soon fill "Les martyrs" 's gap which has by now got hardly acceptable.
 * Jeanambr (talk) 11:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

While searching after "Manuel García father"s to correct them with the right Manuel del Pópulo Vicente García, I came across Wikipedia's opera-bills of The Barber of Seville and of Elisabetta, regina d'Inghilterra, in both of which is reported the wrong (after English usage) name of Manuel García: of course I durst not correct in either case, but I can't help feeling something inconsistent in the whole matter.
 * Jeanambr (talk) 13:04, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The names are sometimes shortened to make them fit more easily into the role table. You will notice that the link on the name takes the reader to the article with his full name. This is really not a problem and is a separate issue from article naming. Voceditenore (talk) 17:34, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

But weren't you going abroad for a week? I must pay you my compliment: you are terrifically efficient, even if... in this latest case ... less convincing than usual! I wish to send to you my very best whishes for a nice journey abroad and for a happy new year. Con simpatia. Jeanambr (talk) 14:05, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Update: Actually, Kleinzach has now moved the two Garcias to even better titles. Manuel García (tenor) and Manuel García (baritone). This is much more in keeping with past practice e.g. Albert Niemann (tenor), Thomas Hampson (baritone), etc. The history of Manuel García (tenor) is a complete mess. The article was originally titled "Manuel del Popolo Vicente García" when it was created in April 2005. Then on June 22, 2008, an editor changed the article to "Manuel del Pópulo Vicente García", but did it via cutting and pasting rather than a page move, thus losing all its prior history. He/she then created a series of re-directs and re-re-directs. The bots have now sorted out the double-redirects, but unfortunately the original page history cannot be restored. Moral of story - always use the move tab not cut 'n' paste for renaming an article and don't rename an article with a long established title without seeking discussion and advice first from the relevant project. Voceditenore (talk) 12:45, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Opera Banner
Something odd is happening to our banner. I left a message with user:Happy-melon.Nrswanson (talk) 20:00, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem seems to be fixed now.Nrswanson (talk) 07:19, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The Threepenny Opera: opera?
Members of the opera project might be interested in the re-opening of a discussion from June 2008 at Talk:The Threepenny Opera. Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:46, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

CfD nomination of Category:Wagnerian singers
Category:Wagnerian singers has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Cgingold (talk) 00:22, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Opera of the Month Reminder
I left a message for User:Shoemaker's Holiday about changing the Singer of the Month to Opera of the Month, but haven't heard back from him. Not surprising over the holidays. I will be away myself from December 30 to January 6. I've filled in the CoM per our discussions above. Below is a more compact, formatted version of the text for the new Opera of the Month (per the discussions above) to be added when we get the new title for the box. If Shoemaker's Holiday isn't able to make the change by January 1st, it looks like an "emergency" way of doing it could be to add the text to the January Singer of the Month box at the top of this page, then change the title by editing Template:OotM to change this line:

! style="text-align: left; font-size: large;" | Singer of the Month:

to:

! style="text-align: left; font-size: large;" | Opera of the Month:

Anyhow, here's the text:

_______________________________________

The Opera of the Month for January is Pelléas et Mélisande by Claude Debussy. We would like to expand this to at least B Class. Work on articles related to this opera and its composer includes:


 * Singers connected with Pelléas et Mélisande
 * Articles for improvement: Jean Périer (the first Pelleas, needs clean up); Georgette Leblanc (Maeterlinck's wife and originally scheduled to sing Mélisande, needs expansion and better referencing); Hector Dufranne (the first Golaud, needs expansion)
 * Articles needed: Félix Vieuille (the first Arkël)
 * Other operas by Debussy
 * Articles needed: Rodrigue et Chimène (based on Le Cid); Le diable dans le beffroi (based on Poe's "The Devil in the Belfry", unfinished); La chute de la maison Usher (based on Poe's "The Fall of the House of Usher", unfinished)
 * Other operas based on plays by Maeterlinck
 * Articles for improvement: Ariane et Barbe-bleue (not well sourced and lacks synopsis and premiere singers)
 * Articles needed: Monna Vanna by Henry Février

_______________________________________

Best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * User:Shoemaker's Holiday appears to be preoccupied with other matters, so I'll make the necessary changes tomorrow if he hasn't done so. --GuillaumeTell 22:36, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I've done that. It's going to look a bit odd for the next 25 hours, but there you go. --GuillaumeTell 22:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry I haven't had commented on here about the recent changes earlier. I have been rather busy with family obligations and the holidays. I just wanted to say that I like where this going and I thank Voceditenore and the other editors involved in making this transition. This new format seems to be fairly flexible, and I think it will provide a good focus while allowing for more variety in the project's activities.Nrswanson (talk) 00:13, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Voce's emergency instructions seem to have worked OK now that it's 1 January 2009 UTC. Happy New Year to everybody! --GuillaumeTell 01:10, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Happy New Year to you too.--Folantin (talk) 09:35, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Request
Can someone start an article on the Carlos Chávez opera The Visitors? Badagnani (talk) 02:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Okey dokey, I made you one.;-) See The Visitors (opera). Note that I based the performance history on an article by Sergio Vela, who was the stage director for the 1999 premiere of the definitve version of the work - The Visitors: ópera de Carlos Chávez, paradigma de la modernidad mexicana, Perspectiva interdisciplinaria de música, Vol, I, N. 1, September 2006, pp. 66 - 72. The various revisions and titles in "my" article are slightly at odds with those in the Carlos Chávez article, but given its current rather messy state, I'm more inclined to go with Vela's data. I've also incorporated some material from the article on the Spanish Wikipedia - The visitors (ópera) - the synopsis (which I abbreviated considerably) and the orchestration. The Spanish article is also in a state of inconsistency and confusion and has virtually no references. So I'd suggest people cross-check the info about the various versions and the orchestration. I've listed the characters and their voice type, but I haven't got time now to do the fiddly standard role table. I'll get 'round to it eventually or some other kind soul might do it in the interim. The Spanish Wikipedia article has the casts for both the 1957 premiere of the original version and the 1999 premiere of the final version. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:31, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Hooray, I'm watching it on DVD now. Badagnani (talk) 01:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)