Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 84

Archives Table of Contents

Portal:Opera... another question
Can someone who uses Internet Explorer 7 take a look at the "Selected articles" section of Portal:Opera? Keep purging the cache until you've viewed the following in the frame: Im my browser (IE7), the bottom half of the small accompanying images disappears for the above articles. It doesn't happen with any of the other 16 articles in rotation. Does anyone else notice this? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:39, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Orfeo ed Euridice
 * The Fairy-Queen
 * Trial by Jury
 * Boris Godunov (opera)


 * I have IE7 and spent some time on this, but Boris never appeared (there were lots of G&Ss, though, most of them several times over). The TBJ image was OK;  the FQ showed only about the top quarter of the image, and the O&E image just showed the top of the castrato's head.  The only question in my mind about the latter two was whether they were just taking a long time to load. --GuillaumeTell 00:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that G&S somewhat dominates, but I fear that's because the G&S project, having a smaller number of articles, has brought more of them to FA and GA. It'll all balance out in the end, as we continue to improve coverage of other composers. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 12:56, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * @User:GuillaumeTell Yes, that's what I see too, I thought I was going crazy. The Boris article does eventually appear, by the way. (It has to do with the randomization program). As for the TBJ picture, I see it as wide and narrow (which it isn't) with a lot of white space beneath it. I don't think the chopped image problem has to do with time to load, because they all appear fine on this page: Portal:Opera/Selected article. There are a lot of G & S articles, which is why I argued strongly that we could use clear B class as well. And there some of those. To help redress the balance, I also kept the "dynamic duo" strictly out of the Did you know, Selected quote, and In this month sections. Voceditenore (talk) 14:49, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I've just had another go-round and Boris finally appeared. There's hardly any of the picture of Mussorgsky, just the top of his head.  Trial By Jury is still perfectly OK - full picture and caption, no white space.  Worth discussing with Cirt. --GuillaumeTell 16:24, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I've tried changing the thumbnail size slightly. See if any are still causing problems. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 16:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * FQ is now OK, Orfeo and Boris same as before, TBJ doesn't come up. I've also noticed truncated thumbnails for concerto delle donne, Rhinemaidens and Venus and Adonis!  (And what is Beijing opera doing in there? It's not part of the Western tradition.) --GuillaumeTell 17:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * FQ, Boris, and Orfeo are now OK. TbJ still truncated. It's as if the shape of the previous picture somehow effects the shape of the next one. I know zip about these things, but could it be something in the code? As for Beijing Opera, I agree with you. I had already pointed that out, and somehow, it got re-added/kept. I'm going to raise this at the Portal talk page. Feel free to join in there. Voceditenore (talk) 17:46, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a thumbnailing issue. I've added a new (optional) parameter, |image_size= to the selected article layout. Just tweak that until the images show. It defaults to 100px. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 18:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia Signpost
I've been asked to be interviewed for the Signpost on Wikiproject Opera. I have to admit to feeling a little uncomfortable about being the only person, particularly as the questions have rapidly went into "talk about your work on pictures and sounds" territory - so I have encouraged the interviewer to try and bring in other members of the project as well.

The proto-interview is at User:Garden/int. I really want this to be good for the project, so keep an eye on it for me, and make sure I don't say anything stupid? =) Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 13:06, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

David D'Or
Hi. An editor has deleted (see ) the inclusion of David D'Or as a subject of this (and a number of other) wikiprojects. I believe that D'Or belongs. Can someone who is involved in this wikiproject please a look? D'Or sings a wide range of music, including opera. I'm not pre-supposing the level of importance of his music to the opera wikiproject, but that can of course be reflected in the assessment. If you have a view, pls feel free to express it on the D'Or talk page. Many thanks.--Ethelh (talk) 02:39, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggest that Voceditenore expressed very clearly why he's not. Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks to all for the input. It's been deleted, per suggestion.--Ethelh (talk) 23:04, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Portal:Opera
This is currently a Featured portal candidate - I think we have a good chance of getting it through. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 21:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Title for Turandot article
Just a heads up. Someone moved Puccini's opera to Turandot (Puccini) from Turandot. I think it was a dumb idea personally.70.185.222.155 (talk) 23:08, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Dumb is putting it mildly. Any admins around who can restore the staus quo ante? --GuillaumeTell 00:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree, so I was WP:BOLD and went ahead and did it, putting in the standard disambig notice. Question -- should the Busoni opera get its own hatnote?  Was I over-hasty?  It just seems that "Turandot" means one thing 99% of the time.  Antandrus  (talk) 00:23, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Good move, Antandrus. It's in line both with OP guidelines on naming, and a help to readers. To Nrswanson, thanks for the heads up. But, you have been blocked indefinitely for abusive use of sockpuppets.. Using an IP and newly created accounts to evade the block is going to cause a lot of problems both for you and for the Opera Project. I'm sorry to have to bring this up here, but your continued editing while under an indefinite block can have very detrimental effects on any future discussions, talk page disputes, AfD's etc. in which the OP or its members may become involved. Voceditenore (talk) 09:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, thanks, Antandrus. On the point about the Busoni opera hatnote, no, surely it doesn't need it - no-one looking for Puccini's Turandot would arrive at an article entitled "Turandot (Busoni)".  More generally, the editor who caused the above problem is noted for making potentially contentious edits - usually where, as here, there is some connexion with works by Bertold Brecht - without prior discussion with interested parties - see Talk:The Threepenny Opera and elsewhere. --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 17:51, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Zaporozhets za Dunayem
A delicate question - This opera was originally written with a libretto in Russian, by its Ukrainian composer, and premiered in St. Petersburg. Nowadays it's played only in Ukraine as far as I can see, and in Ukrainian (i.e in a translated libretto). I see it is categorized as a Ukrainian-language opera. But strictly speaking that's not true. Of course to change it to Russian-langage opera would risk bringing down storms of protests from Ukranians.....but...the present category is nonetheless incorrect.....--Smerus (talk) 19:45, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I could understand it being categorised as both, explaining the situation in the text (preferably sourced) Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 06:33, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

June Opera Composer of the month
How about Gershwin? Porgy and Bess is a former featured article, I think that with a bit of love, we could get it back up there. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 05:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I've changed the heading, Shoemaker. Composer of the Month is for new article creation. Opera of the Month is for article improvement. I think it would take considerably more than 'a bit of love' to get it there and it's not my particular cup of tea, but if other members are in favour if it, I'd have no objections. It could be paired with other operas on the African-American experience which are in considerable need of improvement, e.g. Treemonisha and Margaret Garner (opera). Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:45, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know enough about Porgy to contribute much beyond copy-editing either. --Folantin (talk) 11:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ...I always get those backwards. But I would love to work on Treemonisha. Mind, if others aren't interested, maybe I should demure temporarily since I'll have guests in June. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 12:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd be prepared to help out on pretty much any 17th or 18th century opera, or some from a later date (we haven't done many German-language ones - Rosenkavalier?). Obviously, I'm still working on Purcell and Pelléas but I wouldn't mind a bit of variety. --Folantin (talk) 19:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Main page
Should we add a gallery of opera-related featured pictures and sounds to our main page? I'm fine either way. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 12:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope. The Opera Project's main page is for infomation about the project and guidelines for writing and editing opera articles, not an introduction to opera. That's what Portal:Opera is for. Images and sound files on the project's page, are uneccesary, clutter it up, and make it both hard to read and hard to navigate. If you want to create a gallery as a sub-page, WikiProject Opera/Media gallery we could have a link to it on the main page. But frankly, I'm not sure what purpose it would serve. Voceditenore (talk)
 * Mainly just to go with the other featured credits and show we do have some more. =) As I said, though, I'm not overly concerned. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 13:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. Well if you want to make the gallery, we could link it where the other featured content is listed. But the images and sound files should probably be restricted to ones that are in articles which actually carry the OP banner (not the Wagner Project or the G & S Project). I note that the Featured Articles and Lists that are mentioned there don't include ones from the descendant projects. What do other people think? Voceditenore (talk) 14:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

June Composers of the Month
Maybe some gaps in our 20th century coverage could be filled? For instance, we have no article on Jungfrun i tornet (The Maiden in the Tower) by Sibelius (minor opera by a major composer). We don't have a single page on an opera by Gian Francesco Malipiero. We could also finish off the complete works of Martinu, Honegger and Dallapiccola, to take only three examples. I'm not familiar with much of this music but I could at least create stubs. --Folantin (talk) 16:45, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be cool to complete Martinu at least in stubs, but is seems difficult to find out much about some of them unless you have Czech (which I don't). I started putting up some of these a year or two ago, and would be willing to help if I can in going further. NBthere seems to be nothng about his operas in Martinu's own article--Smerus (talk) 19:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * At some point Milhaud would make a good project; during the summer I have time to get to the Mills College archive if there are gaps to fill. Sparafucil (talk) 09:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, he's one of the composers I had in mind. Maybe put him together with Honegger some time during the summer? To Smerus: my Czech isn't up to much either and those works might be difficult to do (I think they are film/radio/TV operas). --Folantin (talk) 09:32, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Falstaff
This is... nowhere near done, but I'll hope you'll forgive me if I share anyway. Original production! Contemporary artwork! Verdi! Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 02:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

H.M.S._Pinafore
This really, really needs a good copyedit, but I don't feel well enough to tackle it. Help, please? Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 23:38, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

June OoM and CoM
As tempus verily fugits, I've provisionally filled in the boxes above based on the discussions further up the page. Voceditenore (talk) 18:16, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought Dallapiccola's Job was an oratorio.....--Smerus (talk) 08:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's in Viking, where its genre is down as sacra rappresentazione. Maybe it's like Cavalieri's Rappresentatione di Anima, et di Corpo, which some see as an opera, others as an oratorio. --Folantin (talk) 08:50, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Georgi Pavlovich Vinogradov
This Soviet-era radio singer has been wrongly labelled an opera singer by this project. Vinogradov the superb classically-trained tenor has been sadly neglected in the West until recently, so it would have been lovely to have him included in the Opera project. However he was never an opera singer, never performed in front of the general public or on the opera stage, and did not have the vocal power of a lyric tenor. He was a leggiero tenor whose greatest skill was lieder, and he was in his prime and concentrating on lieder when his recording career was suddenly cut short in 1951. I have put more detailed comment on the talk page associated with his opera project tag. But have a listen and form your own opinion. If there is a lieder project or similar slot where we could fit him in - please let me know (and notify me on my talk page). Thanks. --Storye book (talk) 09:59, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Update: Sorry - just realised that I had put the details in the wrong place. So I'll paste them here instead:--Storye book (talk) 10:08, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

He was not an opera singer per se Georgy Vinogradov never performed on the opera stage. There is no evidence as to why, but we can perhaps make some guesses:
 * He was not a lyric tenor. It has been suggested that he was mainly a radio singer because his voice was not powerful enough to carry above a full orchestra and choir. When he sang with the Alexandrov Ensemble, the recordings show that Boris Alexandrov tended to make the choir sing very quietly, or stop singing, while Vinogradov sang.
 * His voice-type may not have been politically acceptable in 1930s-50s USSR. He sang as a leggiero tenor, with the facility of a countertenor (though he was not a countertenor). By facility I mean that he had the countertenor range, and a consistent tonal quality with no change between registers.  But he did not have the timbre of an adult man singing in the upper register (as with Alfred Deller, for example).  There is no evidence that he was a castrato, but his vocal quality was an excellent imitation of that quality and timbre: a rich and almost womanly tone.  However it is possible that anyone imitating the castrato timbre and style at that time might be considered decadent and beyond the pale on the operatic stage.  Perhaps that vocal type was banned?  Although he was classically trained, and a very popular radio singer, he was nonetheless suddenly prevented from recording from 1951, when he was about 43 years old.
 * It is said that he never performed for the general public, although he went on tour entertaining the troops with the Alexandrov Ensemble during WW2. It has been suggested that his physical appearance was against him, although we have no evidence of that. It is true that those photographs of him that are available to us online are all overpainted or very blurred (unlike those of his Ensemble contemporaries), which begs the question as to why this was necessary.
 * His greatest skill and preference was apparently for folk song and lieder. He may have sung the odd extract from an opera with the Alexandrov Ensemble - but none of the great arias.--Storye book (talk) 10:08, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi. We normally look after singers whose main career has been as lieder/art song singers, but in all the other cases, they have performed in at least one opera. I'd say to remove the banner. Don't know what the others think. There is no Lieder Project, but I've added "Musicians work group" to the Biography Project banner it also currently has. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:20, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Voceditenore. These cross-genre Alexandrov Ensemble soloists are all difficult to categorise. The trouble is, the Ensemble is a category by itself, unless you include the similar choirs (with soloists) which have grown up in Russia in imitation of the Alexandrov Ensemble. Someone has just removed many of the categories from Evgeny Belyaev page, and categorised him only as a Russian folk singer. He was a classically-trained Soviet singer, and although he sang folk songs with the Ensemble, they were always arranged and sung in the classical style. Now that guy was a lyric tenor and more like an opera singer. I've no idea where to put him - but he was certainly never a folk singer in the tradition of e.g. the US folk movement of the 60s and 70s - which was Belyaev's heyday. Although as far as I know he never sang on the opera stage, he regularly sang the great arias with the Ensemble. He also sang a voiceover for an opera in cartoon form (see his page). If you think he fits into the Opera Project, that would be a deserving recognition for him - but that's up to you. You can listen to him |en&tbb=1&ie=windows-1251 here. --Storye book (talk) 11:02, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The editor was right to remove all those categories. For example, putting Evgeny Belyaev in Category:Songs about the military implies that it's a name of a Military song. Also a person is not normally put in both the sub and the super categories. For example, not Category:Singers and Category:Russian singers in addition to Category:Russian folk singers.
 * Also, articles are not supposed to have things like this in them:
 * NB: This page is associated with four other pages: Alexandrov Ensemble | Alexandrov Ensemble soloists | Alexandrov Ensemble choir | Alexandrov Ensemble discography.
 * Back to: Alexandrov Ensemble | Alexandrov Ensemble soloists | Alexandrov Ensemble choir | Alexandrov Ensemble discography.
 * That's taken care of by the internal links in the article. If some of those aren't linked in the article, then they belong in a "See Also" section. As for the appropriate project, you might want to approach WikiProject Roots music. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info Voceditenore. Sorry, I only read your message this morning, but I have now put the links on all the Ensemble pages under a "See also" subheading as required. Hope that's OK. now. Cheers. --Storye book (talk) 18:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Deborah Voigt
Hi folks, I am trying to get Voigt on the did you know page. Can you help add prose text, and perhaps a nice image? Bearian (talk) 20:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC) See Template_talk:Did_you_know for the nomination. Bearian (talk) 20:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm up to my eyeballs at the moment with other articles, but I've left some suggestions and possible sources on Talk:Deborah Voigt. – Voceditenore (talk) 10:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Update: The DYK went through on June 3rd. Voceditenore (talk) 10:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Opera portal at Featured portal candidates
Portal:Opera is being considered for featured quality status, at the Featured portal candidates process. Comments would be appreciated at Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Opera. Cirt (talk) 20:25, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Featured sounds needs YOU!
Interested in listening to some beautiful music? Want to close your eyes and travel history and time? Featured sound candidates is for you! Whether you want to simply review the proposals of others, or to search Commons' extensive collection of music to find something by your favourite (public domain) composers, featured sounds can use your help.

Come and join us today!

Future performances in articles
Does the OP have a view (or want to take one) on adding links to future performances of either singers or operas on OperaBase? E.g. Agrippina, Britten operas, Lorenzo Regazzo. I can see a possible value for them. Others think they're not appropriate per WP:EL. I can see their point as well.

Related to this is the practice of listing singers' entire future schedules (sometimes up into 2010!) in the Wikipedia article itself. I personally think it's inappropriate and turns it into a fan page/newsletter/alternative web site for the singer. See Talk:Lorenzo Regazzo. The problem mainly occurs when the articles are inserted by their PR people, but not always. Voceditenore (talk) 13:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Such lists of future events as in the Lorenzo Regazzo article seem to be against much of What Wikipedia is not, particularly Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. They also seem to be of value only to a very limited number of readers. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 15:16, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * While I agree that the long list of performances which appears in this man's article is totally inappropriate (and should be removed), having a link to Operabase is fine. People who hear about a particular singer in one context, may wish to find out more about the person by Googling first and then going to a Wikipedia article.  Also, there are cases of notable singers who may be tackling a very new or different role in the near future and for whioch inclusion is appropriate (e.g. Domingo's first baritone role in Simon Boccanegra in Feb 2010 at the Met).  Viva-Verdi (talk) 16:26, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree with above. In general, reports of future planned events are inappropriate and should be avoided. Only where plans reflect significantly on the biography of an artist and can be well documented. And even here, these references should be rare and added only sparingly. Markhh (talk) 16:52, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are way too many articles where you can read statements like "Opera Company X will be staging 'Opera Z' in September, 2006." The people who add these statements tend not to come back and remove them after it's all over. --Folantin (talk) 17:06, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed: Link to sites that collate upcoming performances systematically; do not try to duplicate it in Wikipedia: We don't have enough people, nor the substantial databases telling us when and what articles to remove things from, required to maintain such entries. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 17:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Possible exception? - stating a fact. Example: in page for Robert Lepage info that he has been engaged to create a new Ring Cycle production for the Met would seem ok to me. But not much more than that. (In fact this is not mentioned in his article).--Markhh (talk) 17:24, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have added such in the past. I caught up with Blond Eckbert recently and shifted the tense to the past. With such works I think forthcoming productions that have already been advertised with definite dates should be mentioned. Productions have been so few that it is noteworthy. Saying that, say, the Met are planning a new production of Carmen, on the other hand, would not be newsworthy. It's so embedded in the repertoire that you would expect the major houses to create new productions about once a decade and individual productions should only be mentioned if they've had retrospective coverage as to their significance. --Peter cohen (talk) 12:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Another comment: in many of the articles on operas of limited performance history it is noted that a certain opera (e.g. an early Verdi opera such as Giovanna d'Arco) is to be performed in year XXXX as part of a series. I feel that this a very valuable contribution which those of us familiar with worldwide performances should make to an article in the likelihood that a reader finds a reference and wishes to explore it Wikipedia. Viva-Verdi (talk) 00:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, yes: if the performance would stay in the article (with the description changed to past tense) after its run is over, then we shouldn't remove it. But that's a tiny minority. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 12:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Do members think the following should be added to the guidelines:


 * While the addition of an external link to schedules for a particular singer, composer or opera on a reputable site like Operabase can be appropriate, listing future schedules for singers, opera houses, and operas in articles is generally inappropriate when it relates to the standard repertoire. Future performances should only be mentioned in the text of the article if they are very noteworthy, e.g. a rarely performed opera or world premiere or a significant role debut for a singer. In all cases, the planned performance should have already received coverage in independent reliable sources and carry an inline citation to those sources. 
 * – Voceditenore (talk) 10:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it's too strong in the case of modern operas. I got the details of what were then future performances of Blond Eckbert off Weir's publishers' site and I don't think that was inappropriate.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:50, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Peter cohen above and would propose that we ammend that statement as noted below in bold italics.


 * While the addition of an external link to schedules for a particular singer, composer or opera on a reputable site like Operabase can be appropriate, listing future schedules for singers, opera houses, and operas in articles is generally inappropriate when it relates to the standard repertoire of frequently performed operas. Future performances should only be mentioned in the text of the article if they are very noteworthy, e.g. a rarely performed opera, possibly as part of an on-going series e.g. a Verdi cycle, or world premiere or a significant role debut for a singer. In all cases, the planned performance should have already received coverage in independent reliable sources and carry an inline citation to those sources. 


 * In the end, though, this will all have to work on a case by case basis and there will be times at which undocumented future performances will have to be removed. Viva-Verdi (talk) 15:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * May I make a proposal?
 * ...Future performances should only be mentioned in the text of the article if they are notable enough that they ought to be left in after the performances have finished.
 * I think this is a good standard to hold it to, yes? Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 10:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good.--Peter cohen (talk) 10:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. --Folantin (talk) 10:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Taking into account the various points above, especially, Peter cohen's, I suggest this:
 * While the addition of an external link to schedules for a particular singer, composer or opera on a reputable site like Operabase can be appropriate, listing future schedules for singers, opera houses, and operas in articles is generally inappropriate when they relate to the standard repertoire of frequently performed operas. Future performances should only be mentioned in the text of the article if they are noteworthy, e.g. a rarely performed opera, a world premiere, or a significant role debut for a singer. In all cases, the planned performance should carry an inline citation.


 * I wouldn't make it more explict or detailed, e.g. on-going cycles. If the future performance fulfils the critera laid out, being part of an on-going cycle won't matter anyway. I agree with Peter re the necessity for independent media coverage being too restrictive, but think their should be a 'requirement' for an inline citation. Shoemaker, your standard is fine as it goes, but lacks specificity, and is open to too wide an interpretation. With fan-written singer articles, every performance should be left in.;-) No guideline can be perfect. It has to strike a balance between being clear and explicit, not too detailed that the reader glazes over, and not too prescriptive. Voceditenore (talk) 11:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that addresses the issues.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above and think this wraps it up. This should be integrated into the structure of article content elsewhere on this Project's pages.  Viva-Verdi (talk) 13:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Update: I've added this last version to the Article Guidelines on the main OP page here. Voceditenore (talk) 10:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 11:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)