Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 90

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L'incoronazione di Poppea - sound files
Any help in finding or creating sound files or clips from L'incoronazione would be much appreciated. Brianboulton (talk) 17:13, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Plácido Domingo
User:Zink Dawg has taken it upon himself to hive off two sections of the article (repertoire and awards) to separate articles. See:. Not necessarily a bad idea, but it doesn't seem to have been particularly well done and was done with no discussion at all. It leaves empty sections which should have at least a summary in them. Voceditenore (talk) 18:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Update: There are now brief summaries in the emptied sections, so all is well. The article is better for having those huge clunky tables removed. The whole article still needs copy-editing for style and grammar. I was bit shocked when I looked at it closely. But that's for another day... Voceditenore (talk) 16:53, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, no time to actually do any productive work, we're all too busy checking Swanson's copyvios! Bloody hell, this jerk has wasted so much of our time...Moreschi (talk) 21:19, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

November Opera of the Month

 * (The Opera of the Month collaboration focuses on improving existing articles.)

I realise that everyone is in a tiswoz about the hydra-headed Swanson, but lest the project becomes completely derailed, can I suggest for a November composer Prokofiev; the opera articles are very uneven (one of them even pointlessly lists the complete orchestration with links for each instrument) and many or most could do with a good tidy up. --Smerus (talk) 20:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Seconded. Incidentally, I'm away until next Saturday (31st) --GuillaumeTell 00:48, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thirded. Smerus, or anyone else, could you make a short list of the 4 or 5 Prokofiev operas that are the most in need of work (especially if they are key works of his). I'll make sure the template is filled in before the 31st. Voceditenore (talk) 06:52, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

All of the articles need some treatment or other. Maddalena and Real Man are little more than stubs. Gambler has scrappy background, as does Oranges. The latter is also defaced by a huge table of soi-disant 'Selected Recordings' (no indication as to why 5 or 6 are 'selected' - it is surely not our brief to give extensive discographies, is it?). Angel needs roles table, etc. Kotko needs filling in, has recordings table as above. Betrothal needs filling in, deletion of silly lists of instruments, deal with table of recordings as above -should 'Summer night' be split off? - War and Peace has instrument lists, recordings box, exceptionally (unnecessarily) detailed performance history, but virtually nothing about important (political) background. Er......that's it I think :-} --Smerus (talk) 07:18, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fine by me, although I probably won't be taking part. I'll be working on Monteverdi and Purcell for the rest of the year, I think. --Folantin (talk) 08:52, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

November Composer of the Month

 * (The Composer of the Month collaboration focuses on composers in the opera corpus whose works still lack articles.)

Any suggestions? Some suggestions from last month...

German Romantics
 * Simon Mayr (1763–1845): L'amor coniugale, Ginevra di Scozia, La Lodoiska, La rosa bianca e la rosa rossa
 * Max Bruch (1838–1920): Die Loreley
 * Franz Paul Lachner (1803–1890): Caterina Cornaro
 * Felix Mendelssohn (1809–1847): Die beiden Pädagogen, Die Heimkehr aus der Fremde, Die Soldatenliebschaft

OR

Zarzuela composers
 * Federico Moreno Torroba (1891–1982): La Chulapona, La Virgen de Mayo, El Poeta
 * José Serrano (1873–1941): La canción del olvido
 * Pablo Sorozábal (1897—1988): La del manojo de rosas, La tabernera del puerto
 * Francisco Asenjo Barbieri (1823–1894): El barberillo de Lavapiés, ''Pan y toros

OR

Women composers
 * Julia Smith (1911–1989): Cynthia Parker (opera)
 * Ethel Smyth (1858–1944): Der Wald
 * Nicola LeFanu (1947– ): Blood Wedding, The Story of Mary O'Neill, Light Passing
 * Peggy Glanville-Hicks (1912–1990): Nausicaa, The Transposed Heads

- Voceditenore (talk) 07:01, 25 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Romantics for me (swoon)--Smerus (talk) 07:23, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Draft of OP Copyright Guidelines
I've written a draft of Copyright Guidelines for the OP to be added as a project sub-page and linked from the project introduction. Draft here:

User:Voceditenore/Articles in progress 4

Comments? Questions? Suggestions? Excoriations? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Since nobody seems to be responding, at least publicly, let me just say that the guidelines look good to me, clear and helpful. I'm sure that I, at least, will find them a useful resource going forward, and I think we all owe a word of thanks to you for taking the time and effort to put them together. Drhoehl (talk) 18:41, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Drhoehl and even more thanks for your continuing help with cleaning up the Nrswanson mess. Since nobody seems to object, I've now moved the draft to WikiProject Opera/Copyright guidelines and linked it from the very top of the OP main page. Comments, questions, suggestions, excoriations, still welcome. Voceditenore (talk) 22:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone here speak Italian?
Can anyone help with a decent vernacular translation of "O come, o come a tempo, bella adorata mia"? It's from a superfluous duet, never set to music, in L'incoronazione di Poppea. My rudimentary Italian gives "O how [something] time, my beautiful adored one", but I can't do better than that. I can give more of the verse for context, if necessary. Brianboulton (talk) 18:42, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In this context "a tempo" would probably mean "once" (as in "once upon a time") or "back then", but I'd need to see a bit more of the text. A more idiomatic translation of "bella adorata mia", would be "my beautiful beloved" Voceditenore (talk) 19:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The complete verse is as follows, but I only need to have the first couple of lines in English:-


 * O come, o come a tempo,


 * bella adorata mia, mi sopraggiungi.


 * Io stavo contemplando


 * col pensier il tuo volto,


 * or con occhi idolatri io lo vagheggio;


 * occhi cari, occhi dolci,


 * al cui negro amoroso


 * cede la luce del più caro dì,


 * da voi lo strale uscì,


 * che mi piagò soavemente il core,


 * per voi vive Nerone, e per voi more.

Any luck? Brianboulton (talk) 16:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, given the rest of the sentence and the next ones, I think the best translation would probably be "O how, how sometimes, my beautiful beloved..."
 * Thank you very much. Brianboulton (talk) 10:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Naming question: Teatro Santi Giovanni e Paolo
I've just made a stub (to be expanded shortly) for the Teatro Santi Giovanni e Paolo as formerly red-linked in L'incoronazione di Poppea. I'll make redirects, but am wondering what the primary title should be. It is sometimes referred to as the Teatro Santi Giovanni e Paolo (and rarely as the Teatro dei Santi Giovanni e Paolo), but it's almost invariably referred to as Teatro SS. Giovanni e Paolo in the English and Italian literature. Another variation appears in Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria where it's currently red-linked as Teatro di SS Giovanni e Paolo. Does anyone know if it has an article in Grove and what its title is, or just an opinion about what should be the primary title? Voceditenore (talk) 12:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know about Grove but I think it's OK where it is. Readers would be wondering what the "SS." stands for. --Folantin (talk) 18:50, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That's what I figured. Voceditenore (talk) 18:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Operas by composer templates.
The full discussion is now in Archive 89.
 * Summary

Michael Bednarek has updated the code and the documentation for Template:Composer navbox -  and. They now allow for a collapsible navbox without an image and with the capabability of having the default set to uncollapsed (primarily to be used in navboxes lacking a free-use image). The new code also allows for multiple collapsed lists. See, for example: Template:Handel. Voceditenore (talk) 11:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Reliable source
Singingdaisies has added information in to Agrippina, citing to this. Does anyone have a view as to this source's reliability? Brianboulton (talk) 20:44, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My view is that it is generally reliable. Caveats:  very Italian-oriented;  not all role-creators are always shown;  French names are usually spelled-out in their longest (and not most well-known) forms;  there are occasionally errors. --GuillaumeTell 23:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Addendum: it's possible to restrict output from the site by being more specific about dates/operas/composers/singers, etc. The above link includes operas by composers who are not Handel.  A better search produces this --GuillaumeTell 00:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I also find it generally reliable, although there are are occasional errors, (as in any reference book, even Grove). You'll find a list of the sources used to compile it at this page. Scroll down to Note introduttive all'almanacco. Voceditenore (talk) 04:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks to you both. It may even be useful for gathering performance information for L'incoronazione Brianboulton (talk) 17:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

GA reassessment for Venus and Adonis (opera)
I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. I have found some concerns with the article which you can see at Talk:Venus and Adonis (opera)/GA1. I have placed the article on hold for one week to allow for these issues to be fixed. Best wishes, GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking at it, I'm bound to agree, it would barely scrape a B (if that) by present standards --Smerus (talk) 11:33, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Me too. I'd say it's more of a C (if we used that). Perhaps it's something to tackle in a future OoM, unless someone wants to dive in now. Voceditenore (talk) 12:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Category:Music released on Blu-ray ??
Various editors have been adding Category:Music released on Blu-ray to many opera articles. The category is being discussed for deleion here. Voceditenore (talk) 06:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, it is totally pointless to include an entire opera, as distinct from an individual recording of same, in this category, so I support removal of this categ. from any opera article where it appears.


 * Isn't there an automated way of doing this? Viva-Verdi (talk) 15:35, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It's OK. Michael Bednarek and I have already removed them all.;-) From the discussion here, the whole category is liable to be deleted, and in any case people are making it clear, that it should only be used for specific performances, not a composition. Voceditenore (talk) 16:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

L'incoronazione di Poppea - Peer review
Please note that this article is now at WP:Peer review. Comments welcomed from project members. Brianboulton (talk) 17:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Tornrak
Not as grand as Brian, but I have nominated this article about a fun opera I saw in Southampton nearly 20 years ago for WP:DYK. I've tried looking for typos but I'm sure I've missed some. I would appreciate it if someone else had a look at it and checked for copyvios mistakes.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:10, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Copyright violation questions
I've had a look at baritone, not by checking its text brute force against Google searches or the cited references but by going back and reviewing what Nrswanson did to it. I found numerous edits under the Nrswanson name and one or two under Broadweighbabe, but aside from a block deletion or two, all that I saw were what I'd call "copy edits"--adding double brackets; moving blocks of text around a bit; adding, deleting, or modifying tags and categories; messing around with the odd word or words in single sentences; and the like. I found no instance under those names of any significant additions of "original" text, and I didn't notice any other Nrswanson aliases in the list. Assuming that I didn't miss an edit, would we be safe in moving the article to "OK"? (Note: are we confident that Nrswanson always edited under a name, rather than an IP address? There was a massive block of edits from one IP address in November 2007.) Drhoehl (talk) 23:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, he only edited as an IP under 70.185.222.155 which resolves to Tulsa, Oklahoma – basically after he was banned in April 2009 for socking. From what I can see, those were all minor edits and none to Baritone. So I'd say it's safe to cross if off. The article's a bit of mess, but that's another issue.;-) Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I went ahead and moved it to "checked and OK or repaired," appending a note for future reference. Thanks for the advice! Drhoehl (talk) 22:05, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

New issue: Nrswanson--in name, as Plumadesabiduría, and as the anonymous IP--made a number of contributions to Kiri Te Kanawa, two (17 May and 23 June 2009) expressly referring to Grove in the edit summaries, but I don't see her name on the cleanup list. Should she be added under "sourced to Grove"? I'd check the affected paras. myself, but I don't have access to Grove. Drhoehl (talk) 20:47, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's OK. I've reviewed the contributions and cross-checked with Grove and it's not copyvio. Voceditenore (talk) 10:19, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

On a side note, I've now joined WP:DYK and shall try to keep an eye out for opera-related nominations to assess with Swanson in mind.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:54, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Keith Burstein and Manifest Destiny (opera)
IP editors arevery active at these articles. My suspicions are that this IP is closely associated with the composer as it is tending towards hagiography. There is also what appears to be mass copy & pasting of other sources. Given the complex problems WP:BLP, WP:COI and WP:COPYVIO issues I wasn't sure which board to take it to. I can't say I am particularly interested on hackign an article about someone about whom I have very little recollection and who appears to be litigious. Anyone else interested in having a go or in suggesting hwo to proceed?--Peter cohen (talk) 18:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I've removed some of the most egregious instances and fact tagged all over the place . There's still plenty left though, including this little beauty:
 * Burstein and the librettist Dic Edwards quickly found a way to use this backdrop to expound a poetic vision of the power of love over death and to weave a fateful and tragic tale of redemption and deliverance.


 * I also left a detailed message about the issues on Talk:Keith Burstein. I suggest waiting for some kind of response before reporting it to any boards and to just edit the articles appropriately to address the issues. It would help if there were more than one editor doing this. I haven't checked Manifest Destiny yet, but Keith Burstein doesn't appear to directly copy from his personal web site or anything else I could find on the net. It appears to be specially written for his alternate personal web site Wikipedia article, or perhaps copied from program notes. There is also an over-long chunk quoted from (not surprisingly) a positive review, which violates Wikipedia:Non-free content. – Voceditenore (talk) 08:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:AUTO might also be worth mentioning. --GuillaumeTell 11:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it appears that someone else created Keith Burstein (User:Dann Chinn). So technically, it's not an autobiography. Anyhow, I've pretty much finished cleaning it up and balancing it. So we'll see what happens. Re his lawsuit against The Times, he won that one, but only £8000 in damages and had to pay his own costs, so I imagine it was a net loss. He lost the one against the Evening Standard quite comprehensively. .... Just think, I was there when he boo-ed Gawain . History in the making ;-) Voceditenore (talk) 16:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I saw the original production. I think they cut it for the revival. Personally, I found that the long ritualistic cycle of the seasons was what got me into the sound world of the opera. I don't know whether cutting this would have worked for me. It strikes me as strange for Burstein to boo music by a composer he once conducted. And based on my experience of Gawain, Birtwistle is more approachable on stage than in the concert hall. I was there when Panic (hm not listed at disambig, have to fix that) was first performed and it is still spoken of by Prommers as evidence of John Drummond at his most arrogant.
 * Thanks for fixing that.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:01, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. ;-) I see that another editor has now also added a balancing (i.e. scathing) review of one of the works to accompany the selectively quoted praise. Re Gawain, I only saw the revival, but I'm almost positive it had the cycle of the seasons in it. Thought The Minotaur was much better though. Brilliant, in fact. Voceditenore (talk) 09:37, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Problems with ambiguity. "Cut" as in abbreviated not removed altogether.--Peter cohen (talk)

Re Manifest Destiny (opera), I've just looked at this in detail. It needs work too, especially the repetitive and over-used block quotes and the recent POV ministrations to the lead by the anonymous IP. I've flagged the issues on the article's talk page, and will get 'round to them sometime next week if someone doesn't do it first. Voceditenore (talk) 09:37, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Voceditenore - I've started work on rectifying some of the problems (most notably the recent IP-driven hyping), but feel free to continue to address them yourself. I've learnt quite a lot about effective article creation since I set up the original article, and appreciate your efforts to improve it. - Dann Chinn (talk) 13:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

'Galli-Marié'
I have put a couple of questions on the discussion page of this article, if anyone is able to come up with answers. Thanks. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:10, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Poppea at FAC
I have nominated L'incoronazione di Poppea at WP:FAC. Thanks for the help given by various members of the Opera project, at and before the peer review. Brianboulton (talk) 00:05, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Jean Borden
I'm wondering if any editor here has reference information about a contralto named Jean Borden who sang at the Metropolitan Opera in the 1920s and was Principal Contralto there. This information was heard on the radio. I'm not certain of the spelling of the name.

Thank you. Wanderer57 (talk) 16:38, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I did a search on the MetOpera Database for Borden, Barden, and Bawden. Nothing came up at all and it covers all the performers there from 1883 to the present. Perhaps she was the lead contralto in the chorus, in which case she wouldn't be listed, or she performed under another name? Voceditenore (talk) 18:17, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Could you possibly be looking for Ruby (Jeanne) Gordon? Drhoehl (talk) 02:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you both very much. I think we must have misheard Gordon as Borden.  The singer mentioned on the radio was Canadian.  Wanderer57 (talk) 17:38, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

December Composer of the Month

 * The Composer of the Month collaboration focuses on composers in the opera corpus whose works still lack articles.

I'll be away from 25 November - 2 December, with only limited internet access. Once you've decided, could someone please be sure that the templates are filled in before the end of the month?. Some suggestions (do add any others you'd like better)....

Composers who wrote operas about Dido
 * Tomaso Albinoni (1671–1750): Didone abbandonata
 * Domenico Sarro (1679–1744): Didone abbandonata
 * Stephen Storace (1763–1796): Dido, Queen of Carthage
 * Leonardo Vinci (c. 1696–1730): Didone abbandonata

OR

Brazilian composers
 * Antônio Carlos Gomes (1836–1896): Condor, Fosca, Joana de Flandres, Maria Tudor, Salvator Rosa
 * Heitor Villa-Lobos (1887–1959): Izaht

OR

Zarzuela composers
 * Federico Moreno Torroba (1891–1982): La Chulapona, La Virgen de Mayo, El Poeta
 * José Serrano (1873–1941): La canción del olvido
 * Pablo Sorozábal (1897—1988): La del manojo de rosas, La tabernera del puerto
 * Francisco Asenjo Barbieri (1823–1894): El barberillo de Lavapiés, ''Pan y toros

OR

Women composers
 * Julia Smith (1911–1989): Cynthia Parker (see Cynthia Ann Parker)
 * Ethel Smyth (1858–1944): Der Wald
 * Nicola LeFanu (1947– ): Blood Wedding, The Story of Mary O'Neill, Light Passing
 * Peggy Glanville-Hicks (1912–1990): Nausicaa, The Transposed Heads

- Voceditenore (talk) 12:27, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * in the absence of any comments, I have put up the Dido composers--Smerus (talk) 14:03, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

December Opera of the Month

 * The Opera of the Month collaboration focuses on improving existing articles.

Haven't got a clue. ;-) Suggestions please... As per above, I'll be away from 25 November - 2 December, with only limited internet access. Once you've decided, could someone please be sure that the templates are filled in before the end of the month? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:32, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I confess, I did it.....(as no one else was)......--Smerus (talk) 14:16, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Cherubini is a good idea. We could also create articles on his operas Anacréon, Faniska and Eliza (spelling?). If we are going to do Médée, it might be a good thing to throw in the other really famous opera by a "Franco-Italian" composer of that era: Spontini's La vestale. Last time I looked, that article needed a lot of improvement. --Folantin (talk) 15:29, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * of course feel free to adjust the template - I fully support adding the absent operas --Smerus (talk) 15:57, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


 * What happened????!? Neither Composer of the Month nor Opera of the Month appears on the project page, yet they'd been properly set up here as far as I remember. --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 18:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think Smerus must have edited the November rather than the December template by mistake. I think I've fixed it now. --Folantin (talk) 18:53, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * oops! Thanks, Folantin - that'll teach me not to rush in where Voceditenore is not treading! --Smerus (talk) 19:43, 1 December 2009 (UTC)