Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Optare/Archive 1

This is the first archive for past discussions in the now WikiProject Darwen Holdings. It starts at the creation of WikiProject ELCB on 25 January 2005, and list all discussions until just before WikiProject Darwen Group was renamed on 13 March 2008. To see current discussions, click here.

Starting
Thanks for setting it up. As I am quite busy at the moment I will start on Saturday. --  A r r i v a  436 19:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

History
How far back should the articles of Histoical Products go? As for the really old ones, I don't know a lot about at all. --  A r r i v a  436 16:41, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

1980 bodies plus should have an article. Unisouth 10:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Template
If anyone can get the template below to the top of the page, please do so. Help would be greatly appreciated!

Unisouth, I have created "Template:WP ELCB|this template" (now this template: Template:WP Darwen Holdings) and put it on all the East Lancs articles, but I can't get it to stay at the top of this page of the main East Lancs talk page. Also, please feel free to improve it, I made a very basic one. (Now moved up) --  A r r i v a 436 18:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Fixed! Unisouth 21:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

East Lancs subsidiaries
Regarding the East Lancs subsidiaries section I added to the East Lancs article (logos too), the preview of the new look ELC website implies thier will be more detailed sections of the subsidiaries. For now, I've created stubs for: --  A r r i v a 436 10:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * British Citybus
 * East Lancs Overseas
 * NW Bus and Coach Repairs

User subpage to keep track of things done for Wikiproject ELCB so far
I created these subpages accesible from my user page, to keep tabs on the things I have done for Wikiproject ELCB so far:


 * User:Arriva436/WikiprojectELCBthings] - Parent page
 * User:Arriva436/WikiprojectELCBtodo
 * User:Arriva436/WikiprojectELCBdone
 * User:Arriva436/WikiprojectELCBpages in the project

 A r r i v a 436 21:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to say I am having these deleted as they are way out of date and I have lost track with them. I know this is the archive but I don't want people to think they still exist. Arriva436talk 18:02, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

New Infoboxes
I have made this infobox for use on East Lancs bus articles, and have put it on the Esteem and Olympus articles. However, some aspects of it don't work and display (example) "" instead of "33 to 60", when the other specification information displays properly. I can not see the difference in the code to make the infobox between ones that work and ones that don't. So if someone can fix them, it would be brilliant.

All the imformation I wanted to put up is there, but doesn't want to display.

--  A r r i v a 436 14:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Pictures added
As can be seen on the Lolyne, Esteem and Olympus articles, I went to the 2007 Cobham bus gathering held at Longcross and managed to get photos of the nearside of the Lolyne (as oppsosed to the offside of the Yellow buses one), and (I put into the article infoboxes) an Esteem and Olympus. This is good as it helps illustrate the buses without the need for the external link "Here is a picture of a ..." at the bottom. And ilustrating the buses helps with the confusion of ELC's confusing name pattern!

The only problem is that the Esteem is such a 'high quality' scan that the red paintwork 'blotches' a bit when the image is small. Here though, it is fine!

If anyone can find/upoload any more of their ELC bus pictures, it would be great!

As can be seen on my user page, I have uploaded a lot of photos and put them on many articles. It took ages!

-- A r r i v a 436 11:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think they are great! The Esteem doesn't blotch that bad. Thanks for uploading them. Unisouth 13:05, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Greenway and EL2000
I've created (well, started at any rate) the articles for the Greenway and EL2000; it might be an idea if someone checks them for accuracy. Quackdave 19:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent, I've checked them and they seem OK --  A r r i v a 436 16:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

European and Flyte
I've added these to the template (since they seem obvious ones to consider doing next), though I don't know that much about them so haven't started the actual articles.

See also the note I left on the template talk page about a couple of others. Quackdave 19:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

-- Good idea  A r r i v a 436 16:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I've now done very basic stubs for the MaxCi and the European, along with pictures, which are rather low-res but are better than nothing as a "starter for ten". I have said very little about them because I know very little -- indeed, I always thought the European was low-floor until, whilst attempting to do some research on Google, I found several photos clearly showing them to be step-entrance! I always thought that the whole point of the "L" at the end of L113CRL (where there would otherwise be a B) was low-floor... Am I at least right that the MaxCi is low-floor? (Surely they wouldn't have registered the first one "L3 LOW" if it wasn't!) Quackdave 23:39, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Names for earlier models
I'm sure I've heard the double-deck body that looked like the Alexander R Type (examples: Nottingham 349-353, 481-492) called by a single letter name - was it E Type? (A quick search on Google suggests my memory to be correct for once!)

However, I've never heard a name for the distinctive double-deck body built during the 1980s, with the downward-sloping front upper deck window bay, double-curvature upper deck windscreen, and wraparound lower deck windscreen. (Examples: most Leicester Dominators from B reg to F reg; G6xx EKA; H6xx GPF). I have heard it called "the coach style body" or equivalent, but that's misleading since many were buses (even early ones like Leicester's 79-83). Does it have a proper name? If not, what should we call it? "East Lancs 198x double-deck body" perhaps? (With x replaced by the confirmed year of introduction!) - Quackdave 19:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Update: from the research I've done online, it looks like the first ones were built in 1984, and the last in 1991. So maybe "East Lancs 1984-1991 double-deck body" ? (Bit of a long title, but necessary to avoid ambiguity? - unless it turns out to have a name!) Quackdave 22:37, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, lots of East Lancs bodies seem to just be called "East Lancs" with no particular body name (helpful on wikipedia!), so I think that name should be OK.


 * Just to say that I have been busy recently, so have not been on Wikipedia as much, so edits for this project on my behalf have slowed down a bit. Hopefully, I will be able to edit a bit more soon. So all your edits Quackdave are very helpful Thank you  A r r i v a 436 16:15, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * No problem! I think I've changed my mind about including the end date of 1991 though, since I'd forgotten about the rebodied Volvo B58 that Skill's had, which according to buslistsontheweb.co.uk has a date of 7/1993, presumably for entering service. Now I vaguely remember that Skill's may have had some delay recertifying it, issues with weight distribution springs to mind? Anyway, without being certain I think "1984 style" is probably safer, and will go for that. Quackdave 11:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Bus & Coach Recognition 5th Edition
My copy of the latest edition of "ABC Bus and Coach Recognition" arrived today, but unfortunately it poses more questions than it solves.

On the plus side, it confirms that I was right about the MaxCi and European; I've gone in and added a few bits to these which I initially omitted.

But on the minus side...

Spryte vs. Flyte vs. Opus 2 ?
What the book has to say rather muddies the Spryte/Flyte/Opus 2 situation. It states that the difference between the Spryte and Flyte is size, rather than entry height, referring to them as "the Spryte midibus and 12m Flyte", and stating that merely "most" Sprytes are low floor and "most" Flytes are step-entrance.

I never heard of or seen a high floor Spryte.  A r r i v a 436 15:09, 5 July 2007 (UTC)



Clearly, the vast majority are either low-floor/midi-size or full-size/step-entrance, which is presumably how the confusion arose. Which vehicles could actually make a difference? According to my perusal of BusListsOnTheWeb, the only ones I can find are:
 * Nottingham's rebodied Volvo B6, M511 TRA, a step-entrance midibus;
 * SELB's six MAN 18.220s, (presumably) full-size vehicles which (could be) low-floor.

(N.B. The MAN NL222FR, registered N222 LFR, is clearly pictured here with a Spryte badge; is this a full-size vehicle? I can't tell from the pic - but if it is, then presumably it confirms the original position.)

I would say the MAN is full size. And just in a new edit, I just remembered that I thought MAN have only made full size buses until their more recent plans, and this bus is an "N"-reg. However, don't take my word for it yet!  A r r i v a 436 15:09, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The book also states that "Delaine of Bourne has two Flyte-bodied B10Ms with EL2000 windscreens"; but isn't that the same thing as an Opus 2? (Unfortunately it makes no mention of the Opus 2 in the text). Maybe they renamed it, but then built two more before introducing the new front end?

Well, as I said, East Lancs can't seem to go straight from one model to another (i.e) Make one, stop making it, make a new model. This is proved by the new models, the Olympus was launched quite a while ago, and the last Myllenuim double deckers are being built NOW (As I type this!).  A r r i v a 436 15:09, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've changed the articles to say that the Delaine vehicles are Flytes rather than Opus 2s, since that's what the published source tells us. However I think I probably will end up writing to East Lancs to see if they will provide definitive confirmation! Actually, maybe these two articles could be merged, any opinions? Quackdave 14:17, 26 August 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I don't think they should be merged just yet, because to the passenger the varing fronts would look different to the passenger! (It's just typical of East Lancs to compilicate things with the Flyte/Opus 2). - Also, I'm just about to add that East Lancs has just recently been saved from administration on the main East Lancs page --  A r r i v a 436 09:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Hyview vs. Hyline ?
Next, it calls the high-floor version of the Myllennium the "Hyline" rather than the "Hyview". A search on Google suggests that the only occurrences of "Hyview" come from our articles; but the only occurrences of "Hyline" come from AltBus, an online forum which appears to be a "fantasy bus operation" role-playing game, and which generally evokes my hostility by contaminating Google search results for real-life registration numbers! Anyway, that makes it two-against-one in favour of "Hyline". Perhaps this is a fairly important one to resolve soon...



I've never heard of the "Hyline", and anyway it sounds American, not from Blackburn! Perhaps you could contact East Lancs themselves for some history! Someone may have got it wrong, (i.e. I've heard someone call somthing the Mylleunium Spryte, which doesn't exist (althought it would be good to prevent confusion over Mylleniums!))  A r r i v a 436 15:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I've found an answer to this one at least. At archive.org there are archived copies of the ELCB corporate website going back to 2001; this one gives us the answer. Hyline it is. (Though I have to say I think Hyview would have been a better name!) Quackdave 18:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Kinetec vs. Kinetic ?
Finally, there's a photo of a Stagecoach-liveried MAN single-decker clearly displaying "KINETIC" on the number plate - in spite of this and this clearly showing the spelling as Kinetec! AAARGH! I wish they'd make their minds up!

My mind is now hopelessly fuddled. On the one hand, I'd like to believe that the book is right, but on the other hand, there are statements elsewhere in it that I know are wrong, so it clearly isn't 100% accurate. But then, Wikipedia isn't about what's right, it's about what's verifiable in "reliable sources"... so, any opinions? (Or does anyone fancy a trip to Bourne, Barnsley, Dundee or Northern Ireland to see if any of those key vehicles have a badge on them? :-)

Quackdave 21:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)#




 * Stagecoach - this is in Stagcoach livery and has an "I" on the reg plate
 * Single deck demo - this has an "I" on the reg plate and and "E" on the side branding
 * Double deck demo - this has and "I" on the reg plate but "E"'s on the side branding and windscreen.

From that, I would conclude that it is an "E" and they have just made a typo on the reg plate. However this does its best to flaw the argument, look at the destination screen! (And also the author of the picture's called it a "Kentic" but that's different...)

After a look into BUSES Magazine, they seem to have called it the Kinetic, and most enthusiast websites are calling it the Kinetec. Obvisously Unisouth's Wikipedia article of it is "Kinetec". And I hadn't even noticed the change!

I think the only way to find the solution to this is to ask East Lancs, made helpful by the fact they don't yet have a complete website and have no e-mail address!  A r r i v a 436 15:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

East Lancs Myllennium
The page is getting very cluttered and I think that with the increase in information and lots more I have found for it, the article could do with being split up into maybe "East Lancs Myllennium Single Decker" and "East Lancs Myllennium Double Decker" Does anyone have any views on this? --  A r r i v a  436 17:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree they should be split. The Spryte and Lolyne have separate articles, as do the Flyte and Pyoneer; so the Myllennium and Myllennium Lolyne should too.


 * As for what to call them, I'd say keep the existing name for the single decker. "East Lancs Myllennium" by itself does after all refer to the single decker. The double decker isn't quite as clear cut: could go for "East Lancs Myllennium Lolyne", on the basis that "East Lancs Lolyne" covers all of the pre-Myllennium versions together, and therefore forms the start of a convention; or, as you suggest, "East Lancs Myllennium double decker" (or possibly "deckers"). (The "D"s of "double decker" should be lower case though, to fit in with the standard WP naming convention.)


 * One of those italicised disambiguation lines could be put into the existing article for good measure:


 * This article refers to the single deck bus body. For double deckers with the name Myllennium, see (Whatever it's called).


 * Quackdave 19:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, or perhaps they could be in their "proper" names of Lolyne, Lowlander and Vyking, this maybe slightly more confusing to create but clearer to read in the articles. Then again this would make it eaiser to put in the infoboxes with the slightly different specifications on each one.


 * Regarding the capital "d's" - I was in a rush :) Any more opinions and I'll press ahead. --  A r r i v a 436, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I guess it would be neater for each to have its own page - though the template will be getting quite full! Or yet another alternative - instead of six separate pages, make three by splitting up the Lolyne, Lowlander and Vyking, but include the Myllennium version of each along with the "parent" version? (I don't know how well the infobox specs would fit in with that, though... are they the same?) Quackdave 20:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * All done just now. Here are the new pages:
 * East Lancs Myllennium - now seperated
 * East Lancs Myllennium Vyking
 * East Lancs Myllennium Lolyne
 * East Lancs Myllennium Lowlander
 * With the new pattern, I had to convert the old pre-Myllennium Lolyne article & seperate it, so:
 * East Lancs Lolyne - now seperated
 * East Lancs Vyking - now seperated
 * East Lancs Lowlander - now seperated
 * The only thing not yet comleted are the infoboxes and specifications, as the intrenet archive machine currently doesn't work! I will try to do this asap. Also, the disambiguation line you mention is it bit big, so that may need narrowing down. --  A r r i v a 436 17:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent! Now, any ideas as to good places to get photos of the missing ones? Blackpool seems to have Myllennium Lolynes, which is not too far from me (I'm in Liverpool), so I'll see if I can make it up there in the next month or two. I can't find any mention of any Vykings or Myllennium Lowlanders in the North West, though.
 * It would appear that no Lowlanders (as distinct from Myllennium Lowlanders) were ever built! Bus & Coach Recognition says they all have the Myllennium front, and searching for photos (using registration numbers from BusListsOnTheWeb) would seem to back this up.  It's sod's law that I only found that out after you'd created the article, sorry about that!  Do you reckon it should be redirected to Myllennium Lowlander instead? Quackdave 19:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the Lowlander problem is fixed, go to the article and spot the difference! I've just said it was the planned name as that is true. Regarding photos, the Lolyne, Myllennium (single deck) and Myllennium Vyking already have photos. So we need:
 * Myllennium Lolyne - you said Blackpool
 * Myllennium Lowlander - I know Arriva have loads in The Midlands (don't get caught out by their numerous Volvos in Yorkshire though!), but I can't get their in the near future.
 * Lowlander - There aren't any.
 * Vyking - It would seem acording to: this and this that Trandev Yellow buses' fleet no. 411 - 418 are Vykings, in addition to their many Lolynes. I could probably get a picture of one of these soon unless you find another examples somewhere else! --  A r r i v a  436 09:17, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, yes, if you ever see a rare East Lancs/Scania OmniTown we need a photo of that to, so that the difference between and OmniTown and City can be ilusrated.


 * I'm going to Derby this weekend, and it looks as though nine of Arriva's Myllennium Lowlanders are allocated to Derby, so I'll try and get one. As for OmniTowns, Nottingham have several, and I'll be going there within the next month or two as well. Quackdave 18:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, then - I'll try and get the Yellow buses Vyking asap. --  A r r i v a  436 09:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * OK! My parents decided at the last minute to suggest meeting up in Whaley Bridge, instead of at their home in Derby, so my visit to Derby is postponed. I now hope to go there in three weekends' time, probably at the same time as I do Nottingham. Quackdave 19:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Right then! The Bournemouth photo should come around in the next 6 or so weeks, but in the meantime I have got this photo of Solent Blue Line's Myllennium Vyking open top - now on the M.Vyking article. P.S. We don't need an open top varition for each one - there aren't any! --  A r r i v a 436, 16:41 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I finally managed to get down to the Midlands, and got a photo of an OmniTown and a Myllennium Lowlander. Neither is ideal, the first being taken on a dull overcast day, and the second being taken out of the windscreen of a moving coach! (I wasn't driving it, I hasten to add.) However I think they are both better than no image at all.


 * I also got a European and a Pyoneer. Again they were not taken under ideal conditions, but I think they are still better than the previous ones, if only thanks to the much higher resolution. Therefore I've replaced these images too.


 * Quackdave 22:26, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That's good, all the pictures seem to be fine to me. On the TYB front, I have been to Bournemouth, but with only 8 buses of a large fleet, and with no knowlege of their particular allocation, I didn't see any!! Still, I might be back there sooner or later....  A r r i v a  436, 1st October 2007(UTC)

Infoboxes (update)
Template:Infobox East Lancs bus is currently on the following articles:
 * Esteem
 * Olympus
 * Spryte
 * Myllennium (Single Deck)
 * East Lancs Myllennium Vyking
 * East Lancs Myllennium Lowlander
 * East Lancs Myllennium Lolyne

These gradually need to be put onto more articles. --  A r r i v a  436 17:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

No More ELC?
East Lancs has been taken over by the Darwen Group, does this mean it is the end of the East Lancashire Coachbuilders name? Unisouth 11:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, at the moment, no one is quite sure, and most people are calling them "East Lancs (Darwen)"! There hasn't been much official information about a name change and I wouldn't take any action on wikipedia until there has been. However this photo at Coach and bus live does have a Darwen Group board. Also, the "G" on the destination display is their logo.


 * So I think that in a few weeks or so, the name will come out as Darwen and we will need to change everything! Would I would do is rename articles of current ELC models "Darwen Group Esteem" etc, and leave past models the same. The main article would have to change too. Any article that does change will need information about East Lancs and thier demise, as well as any article keeping the title of East Lancs needing info about Darwen.


 * But until a name change is known, I'd leave it. I have yet to see a new website for the new comapany (oh, yes, the current East Lancs one is indeed still under construction!) --  A r r i v a 436 16:24, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * And I've just thought, Buses Magazine is out this week, so once I/we get that a dedcision can be reached, according to what they say. --  A r r i v a  436  16:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Buses mag seems to say "East Lancs' new owners Darwen", so I'd leave it for the moment! --  A r r i v a 436  17:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Interestingly a website of someone who has visited East Lancs says that it has been renamed 'Darwen Group East Lancs' and 'Darwen Group North West' . --T.A Stevenson 21:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, blimey! The other people saying it's called Darwen are saying it's just called "Darwen Group"!!! Omnibuses said "Its decision to sweep aside any reference to the former, troubled East Lancs name was deliberate" so there is still a lot of confusion. As I said before I think we'll just have to wait until something definate is found out! --  A r r i v a  436 16:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Buses magazine confirms it as 'Darwen East Lancs' and 'Darwen North West'. T.A Stevenson (talk) 15:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that's enough to warrant changing everything! --  A r r i v a 436 16:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Right, I have just found the Darwen Group website, here, confirming it as "Darwen Group". I am now going to edit the articles --   A r r i v a  436 16:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * That's the website, but it's the Darwen Group, not the Darwin Group. --Snigbrook ( talk ) 17:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah thanks! In one of my Wikipedia "disasters" !!, I only realised this half way through changing everything. I think I corrected everything, but some could have slipped the net! --  A r r i v a  436 19:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

East Lancs to Darwen Group
Now that I more information of Darwen's takeover had come about, I think it's time to change the information (see above). This is what has been done so far:


 * Template:ELCB Buses - changed title from East Lancs buses to East Lancs/Darwen, and also added Darwen Panaire. Buses now with articles of both their East Lancs and Darwin names have had this marked
 * Template:WP ELCB (now Template:WP Darwen Holdings) - added we aim to improve Darwen Group articles too!
 * East Lancashire Coachbuilders - changing to past tense
 * British City Bus - added details of Darwen
 * East Lancs Overseas - added details of Darwen
 * NW Bus & Coach Repairs - added details of Darwen group
 * Darwen North West - created stub article
 * Darwen Panaire - created article on new open-top single decker


 * East Lancs Esteem - added details of Darwen Group and put into past tense.
 * Darwen Esteem - created article


 * East Lancs Olympus - added details of Darwen Group and put into past tense.
 * Darwen Olympus - created article


 * East Lancs Visionaire - added deatials of Darwen Group and put into past tense
 * Darwen Visionaire - created article


 * Main Darwen Group page. Done by Unisouth - Thanks!
 * Darwen East Lancs - done by TAS - Also thanks!
 * Darwen logo - now done also

What needs to be done:
 * Find out: East Lancs Kine/itic - has it been contiued?
 * Images for:
 * 1) Darwen Esteem
 * 2) Darwen Visionaire - when some are made, remember Arriva OLST ones are East Lancs.

-- Arriva436 (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added the Darwen Group logo, created the Darwen East Lancs page, created a Darwen Group category and also, following the takeover of Leyland Product Developments, created a Darwen LPD article. --TAS (talk) 20:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Great! I read about this on busandcoach.com and was going to do an article, but you beat me to it. I was too busy with Southern Vectis! Arriva436 (talk) 22:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:ELC has been renamed WikiProject Darwen Group
Information may be missing for the next couple of days as the project transfers into WP:DG. You will not have to re-register or replace the project templates. Unisouth (talk) 16:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah, good, I was wondering whether this should be done. Also, thanks Unisouth for making the Darwen Group article.


 * Finally, slightly off-topic but I've just removed Gherkin30's name from the list of members as he got banned. (I wont say why but you can tell exactly why if you look at his last contributions!!!!) -- Arriva436 (talk) 19:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Bus pictures
Seeing as I'm not very good with uploading files (logos and my own pictures are the limit!), I was wondering whether any other pictures can be put on. I have seen some pictures that have been uploaded with the right license from Flickr. I have found a photo of a East Lancs Vyking and East Lancs Myllennium Lolyne, which there are no pictures of yet, which have this licence. It it OK to upload these if you do what it says on the link?

Thanks -- Arriva436 (talk) 21:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Anyone know?! -- Arriva436 (talk) 12:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If it is under the CC or GDFL licences then it should be OK. Unisouth (talk) 07:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reassurance, I have now uploaded 1, 2 and 3, meaning the Vyking, Myllenn Lolyne and Visionaire now have images. This leaves only a few articles minus pictures, something very good! -- Arriva436 (talk) 20:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Infobox - Image caption?
Is it possible to tweak the infobox so that an image caption can be displayed if wanted? It's just that I have added an image (from the commons) of an East Lancs Olympus on a Scania chassis to that article, and said it has a Scania chassis. However, currently, there is no good way of saying how the picture in the infobox has a Vovlo chassis. For the time being, I have just put the image caption in the image box, as in East Lancs Esteem, but this looks terrible and makes everything go off-centre!!

If anyone knows how to do this and could change it, it would be great. Thanks -- Arriva436 (talk) 12:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Is this any better? --TAS (talk) 18:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah that's great thanks! I can see what you've done so now I will know! -- Arriva436 (talk) 19:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to say I have done this to all of the problem infoboxes and added image captions to some, which makes them look much better. Thanks once again! -- Arriva436 (talk) 19:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Template:ELCB Buses
I have recently added two new sections to the template, listing the subsidiaries of Darwen and previous ones of East Lancs. This I hope provides a wider view of the company, by not just listing the products. I have adjusted the title accordingly to omit the "buses", but have left the template name the same for the moment in case I page move miraculously takes the template off all the articles. Thanks, Arriva436 (talk) 21:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Optare takeover
According to this and this, Optare have been taken over by Darwen Holdings chairman Roy Stanley. Someone has added this to the appropriate articles, and put Optare in a new "related companies" section in the East Lancs/Darwen template.

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether this WikiProject should be expanded to cover the Optare articles, or any other ideas?? -- Thanks, Arriva436 shout!  21:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Should we expand, what should we call the project? Unisouth (talk) 08:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, if we expanded and had to change the name, I'd say "Darwen Holdings", as that seems to be the parent company and should cover if they decide to buy anything else!! -- Arriva436 shout!  16:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I was thinking of starting a WikiProject for Optare anyway so... lets expand, it might help bring in some more members. Unisouth (talk) 17:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, that can't be bad! I say go for it!! -- Thanks, Arriva436 shout!  18:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Archive
To reflect on our "new start", with the inclusion of Optare to the project, following the Darwen Holdings takeover of them, I have archived all the discussions we have had so far. These can of course still be seen on the link on the right. Arriva436 talk 21:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Darwen Holdings
Right, Unisouth has changed the name of the project, and now we can get started!

This is what has been done so far:


 * This project renamed.
 * The member template changed.
 * The talk page template for identifiying our articles changed.
 * It has also been added to all Optare articles.
 * The Infobox Darwen Holdings bus renamed to its current title of "Darwen Holdings".
 * Project logo has been changed.
 * Template for articles has been updated.

Thanks to Unisouth for doing most of this! Thanks, Arriva436 talk  22:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Navboxes
Also, I see that Unisouth has changed the article template so that Optare products should continue to have this template and Darwen Group buses this template, which I agree with. Merging them would in my opinion make the Navbox way too big! Arriva436 talk 22:09, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Templates
As this project has gone quite for a bit (the loads of bus related stuff coming at the same time has gone, now we have to wait...), I thought it might be a good idea to bring this to your attention:

Firstly, UNI| SOUTH  has recently created this image to go onto Template:WP Darwen Holdings. If anyone could remove the white background I'm sure he would appreciate it!

The main reason for this post is about this template. It is the latest version, showing all the new images etc. However, two similar templates currently exist. This one (Template:WP ELCB) and this one (Template:WP Darwen Group), I have made redirect to the newer version, so that the transclusions display the new version too.

The question is, do we update all the pages to the new version, then delete the other template, or do we leave it as it is? Arriva436talk 18:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I think it is best to copy the WP Darwen Holdings template code onto the WP ELCB template page thus all the articles tagged with both these templates will have the same template style. UNI</b><sup style="color:navy;">| SOUTH  19:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have sort of done that in redirecting them to the newer template, in that they all display the correct version. I was just thinking that it would be easier to keep one version updated, rather than 3! <b style="color:#7CFC00;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 16:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, a have gone on all the pages with the "WP Darwen Group" template and changed it to the newer version, so now "WP Darwen Group" is no longer used. Can I get it deleted it if no one minds? Only 7 pages used this template so it wasn't much of a problem. Now we have two... <b style="color:#7CFC00;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 17:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well then in that case, simply put on the old template pages then when WP Darwen Holdings gets updated they all will! Then if that don't work we will have to get a bot to replace all the tags! <b style="color:#00FFFF;">UNI</b><sup style="color:navy;">| SOUTH  17:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * OK then. I will slowly go through all the pages using the old template and replace it. it should be easy enough, and then we will have one standard template. <b style="color:#7CFC00;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 18:28, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅!! I have now replaced all examples of the old templates and replaced them with the new. All that needs to be done now is for the templates to be deleted. I have tagged them, but it has to be seven days before they go! <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 10:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * All gone now - we have one, standard template. <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 12:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Optare Prisma
While I'm at it, can anyone find any more info they (or I if there's a link) can add to the Optare Prisma pages, it's a bit blank at the moment, and probably wouldn't be seen as notable. <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 10:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

East Lancs Kinetec+
I have finally managed to get a picture of one of these, the Kinetec+ with Reading Buses. Only a handful of article now need images, nearly done! <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 12:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

You have got to be joking!
http://www.busandcoach.com/newsStory.aspx?id=1993. It confirms Darwen and Optare are doing a reverse takeover, meaning the Darwen name will disappear. Another rethink of project boundaries perhaps?! Anyhow, it's probably best to wait before we do anything. <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 16:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess another rename of the Project is in order! Shall we call it WikiProject Optare? <b style="color:#00FFFF;">UNI</b><sup style="color:navy;">| SOUTH  16:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Something like that! I don't know if the all-in-one company will be called Optare Group or something though??! <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 17:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well according to the Darwen Group website, the companies will be renamed the Optare PLC. <b style="color:#00FFFF;">UNI</b><sup style="color:navy;">| SOUTH  17:25, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps WikiProject Optare plc then! In the meantime, I have updated Template:Optare Buses to show everything, and for the meantime I have redirected Template:ELCB Buses to it. The new Optare buses template isn't perfect but is OK to be used on pages I think. Basically, some of the lists are in alphabetical order, while others are in product era date order. The former East Lancs section is also mixed, in date order but with single- and double-decks separate. <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 18:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

List of pages
Seeing as there are now a lot of pages in the project I have created a list with them all (probably most!) in. I've probably missed some out - please add them in as and when you find them!! <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 19:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The Darwen name has died!!
Discovered today that everything seems to have been completed. The Darwen website redirects to the Optare one. The Optare site also has a new logo, which I have uploaded and put in the Optare article infobox. I moved the old logo into the history section, because it shows the old look, and also the logo has been in that sort of shape ever since the company has started.

The Esteem and Olympus have definitely become the "Optare ......", the Visionaire and Pannire aren't mentioned though. <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 15:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * [[image:WikiProject Optare Logo.PNG|right|thumb|200px|Our new logo!]] WikiProject Optare has now recieved its second logo! If anyone can make it transparant I would be most grateful. <b style="color:#00FFFF;">UNI</b><sup style="color:navy;">| SOUTH  17:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Excellent. I see that someone has moved Darwen Esteem and Darwen Olympus to Optare Esteem and Optare Olympus. This cocks everything up, as last time a name changed we did separate articles (e.g. East Lancs Visionaire and Darwen Visionaire are separate. Amy suggestions, should I revert it and create the new articles? Otherwise everything regarding the templates and structure gets confusing, already the Esteem and Olympus have been removed from the Darwen section of Template:Optare Buses, which is very wrong, they still are discontinued Darwen buses.


 * It would really have helped if the editor had asked here before doing the edits. <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 18:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Whilst you have a fair point that it's always good to invite discussion before making non-trivial changes, in this instance I do believe that the changes are a step in the right direction. IMHO, the template is needlessly cluttered by the duplication of models across marques, and indeed arguably incorrect, since the Olympus and Esteem are not in any sense "discontinued". I would suggest this as a neater alternative.


 * In the same way, I would argue that additional articles for the same vehicle simply being rebadged are superfluous, and would even go so far as to merge East Lancs Olympus into Optare Olympus as follows:


 * The Optare Olympus (originally sold as the East Lancs Olympus, and for a brief period as the Darwen Olympus) is a bus body [...]


 * I would present the Plaxton Pointer as a good analogy, which has at various points been badged as:
 * Reeve Burgess Pointer
 * Plaxton Pointer
 * TransBus Pointer
 * Alexander Dennis Pointer
 * However it only has (and in my opinion only needs) one article. Other examples are the Dennis/TransBus/Alexander Dennis Dart and Dart SLF or the Daimler/Leyland Fleetline. (Admittedly, the Leyland Olympian and Volvo Olympian do have separate articles, but the vehicle did undergo a significant redesign at that time, so this is more justifiable.)


 * Quackdave (talk) 17:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with what you are saying here. I was never saying that separate names were the best thing, just saying that when the editior did change them they cocked up the scheme we had at the time.


 * The real problem is East Lancs themselves. Before the administration, their naming pattern was confusing enough anyway, but the stages that followed have confused the matter further.


 * As long as the fact that the names were previously used can be kept clear in the articles themselves and the main articles, I would have no problem with them being merged. The advantage of separate article is that is makes it obvious that they had separate names. As long as you think you could make it clear, go ahead! I would suggest dates for each names and images of the different buses explained well, i.e. 1 (E.L.) and 2 (Darwen). (Incedentally due to the changes 2 is in the wrong place!)


 * Your suggested template looks good, when I made the existing one it was an attempt to clear everything up quickly. If you could try and solve the problem with it given above it would be great too!


 * The Pointer example is good. (Although I have separate issues that is will always be called the Plaxton Pointer - most of the buses are Plaxton anyway, so the article name seems out-of-touch.) Back on topic, if you think you can merge the article and it would be better - do it!


 * I'm going on holiday Saturday (determined to get a photo of a foreign bus on here!) so this is a good time to bring it up - as I can comment on it now!! Therefore, I won't be able to help with merging the articles - if you're happy to do it yourself then that's good too, I'll be having something to look forward to when I get back!


 * P.S, good work with Image:MAN East Lancs Stagecoach 1.jpg, I've been waiting for that ever since I put my Image:Reading Transport 501.JPG on East Lancs Kinetec! <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 20:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, I've placed merge banners on the relevant pages (just to make sure no-one thinks of anything else that we have missed), and will proceed in a few days. Quackdave (talk) 17:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Excellent, go ahead in a couple of days time! <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 17:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, I've swapped over the template (no further comments having been added) and have started the merging, beginning with the Olympus. I made a few observations on its talk page. It took me a bit longer than I expected, so I'll take a break before continuing onto the Esteem. Quackdave (talk) 17:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

← Excellent work on the Olympus article - it is very clear. I have read the additional comments, very odd! As Unisouth has noted, some Visionaires have entered service with Big Bus Company, so he has moved East Lancs Visionaire to Optare Visionaire. This is now finished (I made some small edits which pleased me anyway!), I have also therefore corrected the issue on the template. I was going to bring this up - but it happened before I had the chance! The Big Bus ones were, assuming this, ordered under the Darwen name but finished by Optare. I have also added this.

Over the next few days I will try and correct links from redirect etc and pipe as necessary to clear things up. Now only the Esteem to go (unless someone actually orders a Panaire!) <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk 21:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Optare ColumboRider
Anyone have any ideas as to what to do about this edit to Optare ColumboRider. I'd revert it, but it seems to have some truth in it? <b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;">talk

Products withdrawn
I see with interest that the Esteem and Solo+ have been removed from the products section on the Optare website, as Unisouth has helpfully mentioned on the respective articles. I presume they have been withdrawn, as the Esteem is one of many Optare single deckers, less popular and to the old EL design (whereas the Olympus is their only 'decker in production), and the Solo+ wasn't exactly a massive success at the NEC.

I think that we just need to keep our eyes open for any further developments. The big changes at Optare have been done so things are quieter here. The Project just needs to plod along making gradual improvements at events unfold!! <span style="font-family:Zapfino, Segoe Script;"><b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;><b style="color:#800080;">talk</b>/<b style="color:#800080;">contribs</b> 17:01, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Buses mag confirms that the Esteem and Solo+ have indeed been withdrawn. The last Esteem orders will be built. <span style="font-family:Zapfino, Segoe Script;"><b style="color:#FF0000;">Arriva436</b><sup style="color:#800080;><b style="color:#800080;">talk</b>/<b style="color:#800080;">contribs</b> 21:13, 24 February 2009 (UTC)