Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine/Archive 3

Article merges and title changes being discussed
There are discussions about changing the names of these articles:
 * Al-Aqsa Intifada‎
 * Allegations of Israeli apartheid - Also a merge discussion.

Discussion is occurring on their talk pages. --Timeshifter 07:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

bias on wikipedia
I think the bias is towards mainstream interpretations, not towards Palestinian or Israeli. I always hear about "Israeli bias" but then why is it caled Palestinian political violence even if the mainstream calls it by its name-- "terrorism."--Urthogie 16:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

From al-Aqsa Intifada:
 * The wave of violence continued on both sides throughout 2006. On December 27 the Israeli Human Rights Organization B'Tselem released its annual report on the Intifada. According to which, 660 Palestinians, a figure more than three times the number of Palestinians killed in 2005, and 23 Israelis, have been killed in 2006. From a December 28 Haaretz article:[57] "According to the report, about half of the Palestinians killed, 322, did not take part in the hostilities at the time they were killed. 22 of those killed were targets of assassinations, and 141 were minors." 405 of 660 Palestinians were killed in the 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict, which lasted from 28 June till 26 November.

Why is the term collateral damage used so often in the media? And why are no stronger words used in the media and in that section in wikipedia. Words such as "intentional, indiscriminate, sloppy Israeli counterattacks and massive, brutal, military overreactions". Why is the term "surgical strike" oftentimes laughable? --Timeshifter 17:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia can't control how the media reports things. In fact, using the language of the media is a sign that we're reflecting the cultural environment rather than POV editors.--Urthogie 18:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Isn't it interesting how different sides of the conflict complain about the same things from opposite angles? Pro-Israelis claim that the media is anti-semitic and pro-Arab, Pro-Palestinians claim that the media downplays killings and attacks. Well, for one thing, my conclusion is that the 'mainstream media' in the world a) is filled with mostly ignorant workers (you can't even call most of them journalists anymore), b) could not really care less about Israel or the Palestinians, c) the ridiculous western notion of 'political correctness'. The final piece fell into place for me when watching the BBC (what a mess!). They reported about an attack on British troops in Iraq in which one or more were killed. Even for 'local boys', the story was dry and not connected. Another story reported about Condi Rice in Israel in which the reported then went on a rant about Israeli settlement expansion. Another story was about a day of violence in Gaza in which Israelis killed Palestinians, and Palestinians killed Palestinians, in which the news reader was totally apathetic. I've stopped worrying about the 'mainstream' media. They couldn't care less about us.


 * As for bias on WP, since we are basically a bunch of amateurs who are policing ourselves, and also dependant on finding eloquent language editors as well (most of us didn't pay too much attention in English class and aren't), I don't think that many articles will become completely NPOV for a long time. There are several high-profile articles where teamwork has managed to neutralize the otherwise natural POV 'feelings' of editors from both sides, but there is just too much for too little people. --Shuki 22:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well said. --Timeshifter 08:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * folks, clearly we're going to disagree on semantics, perceptions, events, even the nature of the reality itself. rather than continually (and disingenuously) wrangle over this here, I propose we allow Palestinian editors to have a go at their stuff, and then be ready to add the words "Palestinians viewed this as..." (insert phrase here). I have done this before, and have found it often is a useful beneficial and positive way to achieve consensus, without offending either side at all. I look forward to achieve further positive ends. thanks. --Sm8900 17:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, that depends on what you're refering to when you say "mainstream interpretations". In the US it appears to be a very pro-Israel bias. I guess this is the remains of cold war thinking when USA supported Israel and the Soviet Union supported various Arab states. This may be changing to a more unbiased US reporting and that certainly would explain why pro-Israelis claim that the media is anti-semitic and pro-Arab. // Liftarn

2000 Camp David Summit
The section of the article called "Reasons for impasse" needs some help. See the talk page. There seems to be an attempt at spin control through selective use of sourced info. Leaving in some significant viewpoints, and leaving out others. Sweeping claims keep being inserted too. Reminds me of similar problems with the Taba Summit article. I made some attempts to clean up some of it, but it may get reverted, because one editor does not understand WP:NPOV. The editor seems to be coming at this from the angle of expressing an official viewpoint in the narrative tone of the wikipedia article. Instead of putting out all significant viewpoints in the messy wikipedia way that allows people to come to their own conclusions.

See Talk:Taba Summit for similar problems. On that page some editors had the audacity to say that PBS, Shlomo Ben-Ami, Israel's negotiator, and Saeb Erekat, Palestinian chief negotiator, were not significant viewpoints concerning how close the summit came to success. These editors never allowed the sourced info on the page. They got the page protected for several months. I gave up. Some others need to get involved.--Timeshifter 22:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

New geography stub and Massive work to be done on List of villages depopulated during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war
Hi everyone. First off, I was going through the articles on villages depopulated in the 1948 war and tagging them with the project template. I noticed that we need many new entries to be made for some of those on the list and others need expansion. I will continue marking which are stubs and which are more today, but would appreciate others to take on some work in expansion and creation.

I also created a new geography stub after noticing that this stub Template:Palestine-geo-stubs was being added to depopulated villages. I will be replacing that stub with this new one Template:1948 Palestine-geo stubs so that readers do not think that these depopulated villages continue to exist in the West Bank or Gaza. Tiamut 12:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Tiamut thanks for posting this message

I built 14 new depopulated village articles:
 * Beit Daras
 * Qatra
 * Zakariyya
 * Arab al-'Arida
 * al-Ghazzawiyya
 * Barbara, Gaza
 * Wadi Ara (village)
 * Barqa (village)
 * al-Imara
 * al-Jammama
 * al-Khalasa
 * al-Jiyya
 * Biyar 'Adas
 * Yazur

And I expanded a few and rewrote many and attached them to categories like Arab localities in Palestine 1948 and Palestine-geo-stub.

I am going to keep working on them but I wanted to add in that this project should begin to expand on articles on towns and villages in the West Bank and Gaza Strip as well as Yattah and Halhul (See below Palestine localities) sorry I forgot to sign it, -- Al Ameer son

Help
Can someone ask for a bot to add the Template:1948 Palestine-geo stubs to all articles listed in the List of villages depopulated during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war? If the Template:Palestine-geo-stubs is there it should be replaced and if not, this one should be added anyway to all. Going through them one by one is getting to be very tedious. Thanks. Tiamut 12:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The template is now up for deletion. See the project page for more details. Tiamut 03:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think having a Palestine-hist-stub is the best solution. I think it could be very useful.  --Abnn 03:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It might be, but I fear that it might be creating another level of unnecessary complexity due to its extremely wide scope (from the first to 21st century). It might be a better idea to understand what task we want the template to accomplish and to scope it on that basis. To which I ask, what task do we want the template to accomplish? :-)  Tewfik Talk 03:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

See the talk page for the new template and the listing for deletion (links to that page). I explained why in both places. Tiamut 03:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Consistent Palestinian naming standards
There have been a number of CfD & stub-deletions of late. See:
 * Votes_for_deletion/Occupation_of_Palestine (Sept 2004) result: delete
 * Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Category:Occupation_of_Palestine (Nov 2004) result: delete
 * Categories_for_deletion/Palestine (Jan 2005) result: unresolved
 * Categories_for_discussion/Log/2006_August_25 (September 2006) result: no consensus
 * Stub_types_for_deletion/Log/2006/October/16 (October 2006) result: no consensus to delete
 * Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_October_12 (October 2006) result: many deleted, many renamed
 * Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_October_12 (October 2006) result: deleted
 * Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_October_12 (October 2006) result: deleted
 * Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_January_1 (January 2007) result: no consensus to delete
 * Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_January_9 (January 2007) result: rename
 * Deletion log of Category:Cities_in_the_Palestinian_territories (March 2007) deleted, no explanation given
 * Deletion log of Category:Geography_of_the_Palestinian_territories (March 2007) deleted, empty
 * Deletion log of Category:Towns_and_villages_in_the_Palestinian_territories (March 2007) deleted, empty
 * Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_May_11 (May 2007) result: rename
 * Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_May_25 (May 2007) in progress
 * Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_May_25 (May 2007) in progress

I just wrote this to Tewfik in an attempt to solidify a consistent way of handling these things so that any renamings become simply procedural and straightforward:
 * "Consistent Palestinian naming standards
 * You, Tewfik, seem to know a lot about naming standards with regards to Palestinian related articles. Maybe we could write this out formally at WP Palestine so that we can avoid problems in the future and ensure that the standards are not shifting aimlessly.  I am also concerned about appropriate parent categories so that we tie everything together, it may eventually be impossible to have a single category as the root category, and thus I am thinking that maybe a template that lays out the naming standards can be applied to each of the many base categories thus tieing them together in such a way that it is relatively equivalent in effectiveness to a singular base category.  Your thoughts?  --Abnn 23:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)"

Of course, I am asking Tewfik for an initial attempt, but a standard appropriating naming scheme upon which everyone is in agreement is needed so that it can be referenced in future discussions rather than having a disjointed argument every time the issue comes up. --Abnn 23:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

First attempt at a standard naming scheme
The standard, from what I can tell from Tewfik's comment in the CfD is the following:
 * Government related articles are to use the term "Palestinian National Authority", for example:
 * Category:National symbols of Palestine to Category:National symbols of the Palestinian National Authority
 * Category:Elections in Palestine to Category:Elections in the Palestinian National Authority
 * Topics related to the general region are to use the term "Palestinian territories", for example:
 * Category:Airlines of Palestine to Category:Airlines in the Palestinian territories
 * Category:Aviation in Palestine to Category:Aviation in the Palestinian territories
 * Category:Sport in Palestine to Category:Sport in the Palestinian territories
 * Topics related to one of the two main regional divisions, West Bank and the Gaza Strip, should make use of those restricted regional terms, for example:
 * Category:Palestinian refugee camps in the Gaza Strip

And I guess I should add one more:
 * Topics related to individual people or products of those people should use the term "Palestinians", for example:
 * Category:Palestinian politicians
 * Category:Palestinian musicians

I also now notice that there is no base category Category:Palestinian National Authority, I'll create that now. --Abnn 01:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds broadly sensible to me, though of course there's going to be fuzziness between those classes: do the "national symbols" relate to the PNA, the territories, or to the people?  Could be argued to be any of these.  The PNA's status as a government-that-isn't-quite, and the lack of correspondance in geographical matters between the first two also complicates matters.  Alai 02:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Why is this list completely restricted to the Palestinian National Authority and the West Bank and Gaza?

Where do places like occupied East Jerusalem and the Seam Zone go? (i.e. places that are neither under the control of the PA, nor in Israel whose borders in any case are undefined)

Where do places like Nazareth and Umm al-Fahm go? (i.e. cities with a majority or totally Palestinian population currently located in Israel)

Where do places like Amqa and Al-Zeeb go? (i.e. villages that were depopulated and destroyed during the war of 1948 but tend to be located within what is now claimed by Israel, even though they are no longer physcially present)

Where do articles like Palestine, Canaanites, etc., fit in? (i.e. articles related to Palestinian history?)

Where do articles on Land Day and October 2000 events go? (i.e. political events that involve Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel)

While I appreciate the attempt at categorization, it's very narrow and doesn't deal with almost half of the articles related to Palestine. It needs more work that addresses these complex and important issues. Tiamut 09:03, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Good points. Is there already an Category:Israeli Arabs category or equivalent?  That would cover the East Jerusalem, Nazareth, Umm al-Fahm, Land Day and the October 2000 events and it is a logical category to have.  Palestine, Amqa and Al-Zeeb could be covered by Category:Palestinian history or a subcategory of that group.  Canaanites?  I personally do not know how well established this group is connected to modern day Palestinians, but if there are sufficient references that establish this connection than it could be worked into Category:Palestinian history.  Is there a Palestinian history article yet?  (I am also thinking that we need a template that explains the category structure and that we place such a template on a lot of the category pages in order to help people navigate through this unique situation with ease.) --Abnn 17:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Tiamut, you also bring up a few more points on the CfD:
 * "1. Category:National symbols of Palestine to Category:National symbols of the Palestinian National Authority
 * 2. Well over half the Palestinian population does not live in the West Bank and Gaza Strip but that does not mean that they do not have national symbols. Where does the PLO fit it here? It predates the Palestinian Authority and is still operating. Where do other Diaspora groups go?
 * 3. Category:Elections in Palestine to Category:Elections in the Palestinian National Authority
 * 4. What about electoral politics related to Diaspora organization like the PLO or the Hamas-leadership in Syria?
 * 5. Category:Sport in Palestine to Category:Sport in the Palestinian territories
 * 6. What about Palestinian Olympic teams and other Palestinian sports figures who are made up of not just people from the Palestinian territories but from the Diaspora as well?"
 * For #2, I would argue that we have the Category:Palestinian nationalism that suffices. For #4, I would argue that we have the general Category:Palestinian politics category.  If that isn't sufficient we could add both a Category:Palestinian diaspora and a Category:Palestinian diaspora politics category.  For #6, I would recommend a category like Category:Palestinian athletes.  What do you think?  --Abnn 17:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * In a related move, I just nominated Category:Israeli Arabs for a speedy renaming to Category:Arab citizens of Israel per Tiamut's concerns on the talk page of that category, which I agree with. --Abnn 19:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Should something also be done about the Israeli people by occupation category? Currently, we have for example Azmi Bishara in Category:Israeli politicians, which is itself inside Category:Jewish politicians. I've raised this point before but forgot about it since I didn't get any response... nadav 19:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that seems inaccurate. "Israeli politicians" and "Jewish politicians" should be separate, although I can imagine a "Jewish Israeli politicians" and a "Arab Israeli politicians" category existing at some point.  --Abnn 19:54, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Pretty much all of Abnn's suggestions here make sense, and I've already moved to support at Categories for discussion/Speedy.  Tewfik Talk 02:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see my comments at the category discussion page. I really do not understand the haste to rename these categories. I am asking that we slow down and discuss the complexities and nuances of such a broad sweeping change further. (exception: Arab citizens of Israel should be renamed per Abnn's comments there; i.e. the main page on the subject is titled as such.)Tiamut 10:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * My thoughts are that once we nail done a consistent scheme we can rename the categories again, there isn't a major need to halt this one. This isn't necessarily the final renaming, everything on Wikipedia tends to be transient.  It would be nice though if Humus sapiens brought up issues dealing with the Palestinian categories on the Palestinian noticeboard first in the future, then we can hammer out the details and consistency issues prior to putting together the CfD.  That's probably the lesson here.  --Abnn 17:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * While everything is transient, there is no need to set bad precedents with a hasty naming scheme that overlooks the nuances and complexities of the geographical and political situation. Further while you may not be familiar with User:Humus Sapiens, I am and I don't think his proposal is made to improve Palestinian categorization systems. He has a strong POV on these issues and even voted for the deletion of the Template:Palestinians, so it's no surprise that he didn't bother informing anyone at wikiproject of his proposal. Tiamut 09:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Tiamut, one thing that I am good at is judging the consequents of the actions of individuals separately that the reputation of those individuals. The fact that Humus sapiens voted to delete the Template:Palestinians is disheartening, but not surprising, as pretending the Palestinians doesn't exist is something very common among certain demographics.  This specific category renaming action by itself seems appropriate and I think that if it encourages us to create a template to properly tie together the disparate root categories, than it is a very good thing, thus I support it.  One has to be careful of judging people only on their reputation, and it can lead to knee jerk responses that can be self defeating (as it makes one look like one elevates vindictiveness above even judgment), although it is hard in situations like this.  --Abnn 15:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * My arguments against the renaming are only marginally, if at all, related to my knowledge of Humus sapiens editing techniques and positions, though your advice is duly noted.  T i a m u t  02:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

A model to emulate: WikiProject Syria
While our current WikiProject main page design modeled originally on WikiProject Israel is sufficient, I have been really impressed by WikiProject Syria's design, see WikiProject Syria. I find it very clean and easier to navigate than our current design. It just an idea that I wanted to introduce if case someone else agrees. --Abnn 05:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid the nuance is lost on me. What specifically is different that you'd like to implement?  Tewfik Talk 06:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Layout, with the boxes and all that. I think that right now WikiProject Syria is a lot easier to read and navigate than our project.  I like its professionalism.  DieWeibeRose was refactoring some of our page and thus I brought WikiProject Syria up as the direction to head in, if we are looking for something akin to a "best practice" in terms of page design.  --Abnn 07:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I see now. Yes, its much cleaner and more professional. Good job DieWeibeRose.  Tewfik Talk 17:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It is very attractive. Does anyone have time to implement it? --Ian Pitchford 19:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've give it a try in the next few days, hopefully time permitting. --Abnn 21:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Translation
Guys, Im new to wiki, and I plan to translate the article http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%84%D8%A9_%D9%81%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%B7%D9%8A%D9%86 to English. What steps should i take to do that? by that, i mean, where should i put my translation, where should i save it? thx for any help! --Zaki Saadeh 18:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, you can post the resulting English text on this page and we can help you make an article out of it. You could also just create the English language equivalent of the article yourself and then post a link to it on this page and we can help clean it up.  There isn't a set procedure to follow, except an understanding that the end result should be a proper English language Wikipedia article.  --Abnn 20:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Zaki, you might want to take a look at the existing entries for Palestine before translating that article, as much of it undoubtedly is already covered.  Tewfik Talk 06:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think Zaki was using the OpenTasks page as a reference because it contained فلسطين. I have removed this entry for now.  Maybe there are other more useful articles to translate?  --Abnn 01:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Palestine locality articles
Hi, Can someone find any info on the West Bank cities of Yattah(pop. 45,000+) and Halhul (20,000+) in the Hebron Governorate to make a mid-sized article on? Frankly I think the articles on such large population centers are long-overdue. And we also need to start expanding on the Muslim Quarter and Christian Quarter of Jerusalem as well as the cities of Tubas and Rafah (demographics, economy, recent history, etc.). - Al Ameer son
 * Al Ameer son, I think Yattah is the historic name Juttah. Here is an encyclopedia article on Juttah that confirms that .  According to Mongabay, Yattah has a population of 42,844 in 2004 .  There is a lack of information in google scholar and google books on this town, although there is enough to establish that it exists.  --Abnn 05:15, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I created an article on the town, but I used the spelling Yatta rather than Yattah. I think that there are more hits and sources if you search for "Yatta" too.  Maybe that was the problem.  --Abnn 05:27, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I created a quick stub for Walid Khalidi as well. --Abnn 06:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I noticed someone added St. George's Orthodox Church to the OpenTask page. May that just be another name for Church of Saint George?  --Abnn 06:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey Thanks for starting those articles, I'm going to try to find out more on Yatta because I think a town larger than Qalqilyah needs more info. As for the St. George's Orthodox Church I added that to the requests because I saw it in the Arab citizens of Israel template. I looked into the Church of Saint George article and I think it is the same church, someone just wrote it incorrectly. I don't know how to redirect an article but I think thats what we should for St. George's Orthodox Church

Thanks, - Al Ameer son

Category:Palestinians and the United Nations?
There are a ton of articles dealing with the United Nations and the question of Palestine, Palestinian refugees and various other issues associated with Palestinians. It would be nice to group them together as right now they are spread all over the place. How about a Category:United Nations and the Palestinians category or something similar? --Abnn 00:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Abnn, building this category would certainly better organize the related subjects between the UN and the Palestinians - Al Ameer son
 * I was thinking about it a bit more and I think it might be best to follow existing foreign relations precedents. Thus the category would be named Category:Palestinian-United Nations relations.  --Abnn 02:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Before you have a category, there is a definite need for an article about Palestinians and the United Nations. Perhaps you can refer to articles already in Category:United_Nations_relations for format. On one hand, I imagine that there will be a lot of overlap with the 'Israel and the UN' article, and we can expect that this will be a 'hot' article with lots of disputes until a final copy. But that sometimes leads to a great article. --Shuki 19:30, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you are right there is a need for such an article (and a category.) My thoughts at the moment are that there needs to be pair-wise articles on Palestinians-United States relations and Jordan-Palestinians relations and probably also Lebanon-Palestinians relations to compliment the future Palestinians and United Nations article and the existing, but underdeveloped, Iran-Palestinians relations.  --Abnn 01:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent idea, Palestinian-United Nations relations should have its own category. Maybe the other pair-wise articles should have a single category until they become more fleshed out, eg Category:Palestinian foreign relations. Or would this set a bad precedent? Delad 03:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your feedback. I can share with you that there is already a general category for Palestinian/PNA foreign relations, see Category:Foreign relations of the Palestinian National Authority.  --Abnn 03:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Article on depopulated villages during Six-Day War?
In addition to the list of villages depopulated during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, there were three other villages depopulated (Imwas, Yalu, Beit Nuba). Should we start a new article on them or include them with the list of depopulated villages during the 1948 Arab Israeli War (by doing so changing the title of the article)? - Al Ameer son
 * A whole article for three villages seems like overkill. Maybe just a section in the Six Day War article would be enough?  Or we could rename the first article to List of villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict so that it would include all recent wars/conflicts?  --Abnn 02:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sort of stuck in which of the two choices we should do (or both) I will ask some other members. Both ideas seem to work out. - Al Ameer son
 * I would support Abnn's rename, since there are several others that didn't take place precisely during the war.  Tewfik Talk 02:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So its settled we should change the name of the article, right? Or should we bring forth this discussion to the article just to make sure that there isn't too many objections Al Ameer son
 * I'm fine with whatever solution you choose Al Ameer son. --Abnn 03:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I say we just change it and redirect the original title of the article to the proposed one: List of villages depopulated during the Arab-Israeli conflict, however I still have not learned how to change the name of an article so you, or Tewfik will have to change it -- Al Ameer son 18:14 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a "move" tab at the top beside "discussion" and "edit this page." Just click "move" and then there is a box to enter in the new title of the page and a box for you to give your reason.  Then click ok/move.  It's not that hard, and not that hard to learn.  I encourage you to give it a try.  --Abnn 23:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Ha, ha thanks Abnn I'll go for it, -- Al Ameer son 12:37 31, May 2007 (UTC)

Request for Fatah Flag
Would anyone be able to upload a flag representing the PLO sub-group Fatah. Because right now on wikipedia it only has a seal. The flag is Yellow with black writing. - Al Ameer son
 * I found this picture, from this BBC News story. It looks like the PLO symbol on a yellow square (not rectangular) flag.  Here is another picture from another news story .  I did a bunch of searches and couldn't find anything better.  --Abnn 05:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It was the second one that was correct and I found another one although it isn't just a solid flag: I will continue to look but I dont think I'll find one and I have a feeling that someone will have to somehow make one on photoshop, etc. -- Al Ameer son 20:00, 29 May 2007
 * I found some more on Yahoo:, , http://cache.viewimages.com/xt/72943732.jpg?v=1&g=editorial_emea&s=1

--Al Ameer son 20:17, 29 May 2007

Merging Proposals for a Palestinian state and Palestinian state?
I'm pretty sure these two articles cover roughly the same information from the same perspective: Eventually, I fear we'll have to merge these two. That is unless someone can see a significant difference between the two and justifying keep both around. --AbnnTalk 06:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Proposals for a Palestinian state
 * Palestinian state
 * An attempt at a centralized discussion: Talk:Proposals for a Palestinian state. --AbnnTalk 06:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

1973 oil crisis is up for Good article review
It may be delisted from its GA status. The primary concern is lack of inline referencing, as there are only 12 references between 16 sections. Please assume good faith and work quickly to improve the article. -Malkinann 16:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Category:Geography of the Palestinian territories
Please see this diff

Concerning Category:Geography of the Palestinian territories Tewfik twice removed the following info (between the double line breaks) from the category page:

See also the Atlas of Palestine at the wikimedia commons. It is an organized and commented collection of geographical, political and historical maps of Palestine and the Palestinian territories.

Category:Geography of the Middle East

The Palestinian territories are in the Middle East.

The Atlas covers both Palestine and the Palestinian territories. Should the Atlas name be changed to "Atlas of Palestine and the Palestinian territories"?

The word "Palestine" is both a historical and political term. It is an aspiration and political movement. So the name exists, and is verifiable as to its modern uses. I think it would be kind of silly to change the Atlas of Palestine to "Atlas of Palestine and the Palestinian territories"? But supporters of the right-wing of Israeli politics seem bent on destroying acknowledgement of either name if they are used in any way to refer to the modern Palestinian territories. They prefer "Judea" and "Samaria."

The Palestine link banner may be a different situation. Maybe the name of the link banner should be changed to "Palestinian territories". Or maybe there should be 2 versions of it. One labeled "Palestine" to put on historical Palestine articles, and one labeled "Palestinian territories" to put on articles about the modern Palestinian territories. --Timeshifter 21:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I just added the following sentence to the category page:


 * This geography category is for the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. See Category:Geography of Palestine for articles and categories dealing with historical Palestine.

This may help people in finding what they want, and in sorting it correctly. --Timeshifter 21:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Category:Geography of Jerusalem
Please see this diff. Tewfik removed Category:Geography of the Palestinian territories, but left in Category:Geography of Israel. Please read the edit summaries in the diff. As far as I know categories don't go through featured article (FA) reviews. So Tewfik is misinterpreting wikipedia procedures and guidelines again. --Timeshifter 00:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * So Tewfik is misinterpreting wikipedia procedures and guidelines again. Yes, that helpful comment is a great way to get across a point.  Tewfik Talk 02:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You didn't address the issue. You seem to have a habit of trying to remove the names "Palestine" and "Palestinian territories" from many places in wikipedia. In your edit summary you wrote: "rmv nonconsensus categorisation; this just went through FA & the standard was confirmed again". You also seem to have a habit of using acronyms way too often in your edit summaries. And in this case it is a misinterpretation of what a "featured article" is. Categories don't go through "Featured Article" (FA) reviews. --Timeshifter 11:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Category:Jerusalem
Please see this diff. Tewfik removed Category:Disputed territories and Category:Cities in the West Bank. He left in Category:Cities in Judea. His edit summary was "please don't use categories to say what doesn't stand in the entry's text."

From Jerusalem: The Arab population is clustered in the north, east and south. Today, Jerusalem remains a bone of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem (captured in the 1967 Six-Day War) has been particularly controversial, as Palestinians view this part of the city as the capital of a future Palestinian state.[10][11] The status of a "united Jerusalem" as Israel's "eternal capital"[12][13] has not been officially recognized by most of the international community, and nearly all countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv.[14] --Timeshifter 13:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Palestinian territories linkbar?
 

Would anybody be interested in creating a version of this linkbar titled "Palestinian territories"? It would be a simple solution to some problems. The linkbar title would be "Points of interest related to Palestinian territories on Wikipedia"

All the links would remain the same, except the category link would be changed to Category:Palestinian territories. That is done automatically when the code is changed to

 

I don't know how to add the rest of the links on the bar, though. This second linkbar could be used on category pages with "Palestinian territories" in the title, or related categories such as Category:West Bank and Category:Gaza Strip.

The original linkbar would be used on all the categories related to historical Palestine. Using 2 linkbars would avoid a lot of naming arguments.--Timeshifter 12:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Category:East Jerusalem
There is a category for deletion discussion going on here.

There is a wikipedia article titled East Jerusalem. So I don't understand why the category would be deleted. I suggest keeping the list page too, List of East Jerusalem locations. The notes can be expanded there as needed. That way we cover the issue from all sides. More info is better than less. The section headings from the list page can be used to create subcategories for Category:East Jerusalem. The subcategory names may need to be adjusted slightly to make them into better subcategory names. Subcategory names such as:
 * Jerusalem locations in Jordanian municipality (1949-1967).
 * Jerusalem locations in expanded Israeli municipality (1967-present).--Timeshifter 13:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Note. I don't see many editors from WikiProject Palestine commenting at the category for deletion discussion. It seems that many of the editors who have commented so far are some of the more POV-oriented ones from WikiProject Israel. I consider myself a WP:NPOV member of that project. --Timeshifter 19:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I would imagine it is because most of the people round here are more interrested in adding material to Wikipedia than deleting stuff other people have written. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 04:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Atlas of Palestine
Please see this diff.

Tewfik removed this info below from Category:Geography of the Palestinian territories

See also the Atlas of Palestine at the wikimedia commons. It is an organized and commented collection of geographical, political and historical maps of Palestine and the Palestinian territories.

This censorship by Tewfik of references to the names "Palestine" and "Palestinian territories" needs to stop. It may need to be reported to WP:ANI. There have been many examples of Tewfik's deletion of references to the names "Palestine" and "Palestinian territories"?

Also, in his longstanding habit of blind, mass reversions he keeps removing Category:Geography of the Middle East. Even though he leaves in Category:Geography by country.

I have reported on Tewfik's mass reversions many times over many months. He often blindly deletes non-controversial intermediate revisions added by others in order to get back to his preferred version. This is another example of Tewfik's tendentious editing. --Timeshifter 15:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, not going to take the bait; please limit your comments to content, not editors.  Tewfik Talk 15:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * You are the editor, and it is your edits we are discussing. --Timeshifter 16:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Who is the PM?
Two different Prime Ministers are shown in One in the box inserted by the Politics of Palestine tag and one in the Main Office Holders box. This probably reflects the reality of a post disputed by two armed camps with power bases in separated areas, but has the tag box been changed too quickly? AFAIR during the previous crisis, before the coalition government was formed, Hamas said that Abbas didn't have a constitutional right to dissolve the government. Does someone in the project have access to a clear description of the constitution? Or does a neutral point of view actually require stating that the post is disputed? --Peter cohen 22:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * [] now acknowledges both putative PMs, whilst Politics of the Palestinian National Authority lists just one. I think both should be mentioned everywhere except when specifically talking about de facto control in either the WB or the GS. --Peter cohen 22:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Government of Salam Fayyad
I don't know if there is already an article about Salam Fayyad's government, but if there isn't, here's a list of some of the ministers, with short profiles. Cattus 17:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Upgrade Yasser Arafat to FA status
I have considerably expanded the article on the sections of Early Life, (created Formation of Fatah from ending portion of Early Life section and expanded on that as well), Jordan, fixed links, grammatical errors, spelling throughout the article and added mid-sized portions of information to the Lebanon and Aftermath sections and all with reference to Said K. Aburish's biography of Yasser Arafat, Arafat, From Defender to Dictator including the references he used.

If someone just adds the reference to this sentence,

According to one of his doctors, Arafat was suffering from Idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP), an immunologically-mediated decrease in the number of circulating platelets to abnormally low levels[citation needed].

Then I think we should upgrade its status to Featured Article from A-article. See, Talk:Yasser Arafat -- User: Al Ameer son 16:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

More categories for deletion.
See Categories for discussion/Log/2007 June 19. Tewfik has called for the deletion of


 * Category:Geography of the Palestinian territories
 * Category:Cities, towns and villages in the Palestinian territories
 * Category:Buildings and structures in the Palestinian territories

Tewfik linked to the discussion here in the talk section higher up titled "Consistent Palestinian naming standards." So I am reporting back here, and asking for your comments at the Categories for discussion page. --Timeshifter 04:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * These categories were kept since there was no consensus to delete them. See
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2007 June 19.--Timeshifter 11:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Category:East Jerusalem closing admin decision to delete
I left the following message at User talk:Kbdank71.

east jerusalem

Categories for discussion/Log/2007 June 11

Hi. I think you are mistaken in closing the CFD discussion with "The result of the debate was delete".

From Deletion process {emphasis added):
 * If the discussion failed to reach consensus, then the category is kept by default, but the decision should generally include a reference to the lack of consensus, in order to minimize ambiguity and future confusion.

I count 8 keeps and 19 deletes from non-anonymous users. The "oppose" is a keep vote, and I counted it in the 8 keeps. Most of the deletes were from users who did not enter into discussion. I see no consensus, and not even rough consensus.

Deletion review says to ask the closing admin to correct possible mistakes in closing:

"Deletion Review is the process to be used to challenge the outcome of a deletion debate or a speedy deletion. 1. Deletion Review is to be used where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question. This should be attempted first - courteously invite the admin to take a second look."--Timeshifter 01:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I did not get the closing admin to change his mind. So I started a deletion review at Deletion review/Log/2007 June 22. --Timeshifter 08:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Deletion of the overall category was endorsed by the closing admin of the deletion review. I think there would be little rational objection to more specific categories based on the 2 subsections of this page: List of East Jerusalem locations. To see a list of the articles that were categorized in the deleted category please go here: Talk:List of East Jerusalem locations. --Timeshifter 11:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Gilo
The article Gilo has some attached users who revert anytime this 'neighbourhood' is also called a 'settlement'. This seems rather bizarre. I also noticed it was nicely located in 'southern Jerusalem' ... which is funny. East Jerusalem is being kept out. Funny ole world this is. 129.215.149.99 08:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I added a 'disclaimer'. While the use of the description 'neighbourhood' varies between settlements, Gilo is infact part of the Jerusalem municipality so most people don't see it as as seperate 'settlement'. And saying 'eastern Jerusalem' does not equal 'East Jerusalem' or maybe it does? --Shuki 20:16, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The IP's complaint is spurious. The article already said many consider it a settlement and also included the link to East Jerusalem. nadav (talk) 22:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Gaza (2007)
This article has been nominated as a good article. I think it should be improve more. SO I put On hold tag and wrote my suggestions in the talk page of the article. Please try to imrove it and make a good article.-- Sa.vakilian(t-c) 19:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Map shading
I'm creating some maps for sporting events and I'm wondering if it's correct to shade West Bank+Gaza Strip for Palestine. Is this correct? -- Howard  the   Duck  18:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Infobox_Palestinian town
I think we need to create a infobox template for Palestinian towns and villages as well as revise the one we currently use for Palestinian cities. I suggest we compare them to the ones used for Israeli local councils, cities, kibbutz etc. --

This could much better organize and relate Palestinian localities together. -- Al Ameer son 16:25, 11 July 2007

WP:ANI. Jerusalem categorization
Please see discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive818. I also posted this at Notice board for Israel-related topics and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel. --Timeshifter 12:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Discussion is now archived here: . It lists many examples of this still-ongoing POV campaign. --Timeshifter 17:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Another deletion attempt concerning various "Palestinian territories" categories
Please see Categories for discussion/Log/2007 August 7 and Category:Palestinian territories. I also posted this at Notice board for Israel-related topics and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel.--Timeshifter 01:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Peer review for Israel
I have put forth a peer review for the Israel article at Peer review/Israel/archive1. Comments are welcome there (and on Talk:Israel, if you prefer). --  tariq abjotu  20:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Peer Review for Yasser Arafat
For about a month or so I have nominated the article of Yasser Arafat to a Featured Article Peer Review. Since the article is of TOP importance to the project I request we all participate in working on the article. Give Feedback and read more at WikiProject Biography/Peer review/Yasser Arafat -- Al Ameer son 17:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Sabra Shatila
someone needs to help me in revising this page. Some of the statements are rediculous and everything I add gets deleted within minutes. HELP! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.95.207.66 (talk) 19:23, August 30, 2007 (UTC)


 * You will get better results if you sign in first. If you do not have a user name, it only takes a minute to get one. You can remain anonymous. Even during the registration process. Only an email address is required. And that can be left private in your preferences. --Timeshifter 22:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)