Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pokémon/Archive 12

Next Pokémon Creature Article
Did an update of all the noted articles, so people can fix what's wrong without having to ask what's wrong. If you complete something, just strike it out. H ig hway Daytrippers  17:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Blaziken - Rewrite characteristics, cover May's Torchic-->Combusken--> Blaziken (all the info can be found in the prior articles). Copy video games prose from Combusken. Referencing all round, H ig hway Daytrippers  17:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This would actually complete an evolutionary family, our second that we could complete (the third is the Mudkip family with Swampert; the first is Bulbasaur's with the upgrade of Venusaur.) myTrackerTV (myTalk|myWork|myInbox) 23:39, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Houndoom - remove original research on design, merge controversy and appearance into the introduction. Split the intro into 3 paragraphs. Remove POV game guide remarks from video games, describe its availbity, change the Biology section title. Expand anime section, add generic headers for TCG and anime. Change the TCG to prose, check Serebii for manga appearances. H ig hway Daytrippers  17:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Venonat - implement Pokestart, expand on Koga's (or his assisstant's) Venonant, and expand greatly on Tracey's. Again, check the manga for Venonat, and rewrite the TCG section. Remove original research from Biology, and add better descriptions of Venonat locations. H ig hway Daytrippers  17:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Treecko - Write content on Ash's Treecko-->Grovyle-->Sceptile, and Wally's Treecko-->Grovyle. H ig hway Daytrippers  17:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Shuppet - Implement Pokestart, move appearance description to intro, fix the name etymology. Add the sectional headers for anime and TCG, check Ivysaur for them. Check manga for Shuppet appearances, and check Psypoke's Deck Dex for TCG appearances. Reference the Pokédex, the locations bit at Psypokes, and check Max (Pokémon) for more about its anime appearance. H ig hway Daytrippers  07:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Rapidash - Rewrite name def, cleanup citing there D: Cleanup whole of intro, per Ivysaur. Rewrite and properly cite Pokédex section, per Torchic. Cleanup video games per Cloyster, mention Pokémon Snap, and borrow the book cite from Bulbasaur. If you feel like digging, you can note that Rapidash is the only other Fire family in the Shin'ou dex, there's a Bulbanews article detailing this for "fan clarification". Implement, Pokeanime , and format the wash of text, per Ivysaur. Check Serebii for the manga, someone must have a Rapidash, look at Eevee, it's got the cite about the Electric Pikachu Boogaloo manga volume with the novelised version of the race. Format the TCG like Ivysaur, and prose it. *dies* H ig hway Grammar Enforcer!  09:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Anorith Yuk! &mdash;Cel es tianpower háblame 23:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Banette - The "Characteristics" section is well done; the rest is a wreck, especially the jargon-loaded "In the Video Games" section. ~e.o.t.d~ 10:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Mewtwo - rm OR scattered throughout article, find sources for the rest; video game structure is special for Mewtwo but should still be restructured to follow precedence (i.e. GB game info first to introduce, other sections come after); general grammar and spelling. This could easily become a GA or even an FA that the general audience won't be so crabby about (like with Torchic). -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 19:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC


 * Pokémon evolution We should add levels of Evolution to ever pokemon under the picture for convenience and so that the information isn't scattered throughout the article. Also, in many cases it doesn't even say what level it evolves at!  Surskit being the first to come to mind.
 * I believe the reason why the level at which Pokémon isn't written into articles is that it feels too much like a game guide, and this is not allowed (#4)&mdash;it's too technical. --Brandon Dilbeck 03:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Next Miscellaneous Article
''Cleaned out to gut old discussions. Archived FFAs. Shin'ou's TTV (Futaba|Masago|Kotobuki) 03:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)''
 * Pokémon Red and Blue. It's one of the best-selling games ever, and WP:CVG has excellent style guidelines (And plenty of willing help) to help us get a featured article about something that exists in the real world. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. This, along with Ruby and Sapphire, should go straight to our next MA, but our current focus, our flagship, should be made an honorary focus so that this could cycle again. TTV (MyTV|PolygonZ|Green Valley) 21:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think this project can turn Pokémon into a proper FA or even a GA unless someone commits to doing the hard work of proper research. With Pokémon Red and Blue, that research still needs to be done; it's just less onerous. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Pokémon (video games) More detailed comments are at the bottom of this page, but to sum it up, for an page that's supposed to be the main article for the video games, it needs a lot of work. 蜻蛉の目e.o.t.d 10:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Pokémon lists
We have over half a dozen Pokémon lists. These were fine a couple of months ago, but now MediaWiki has added the "sortable" class to lists. For example, I've taken the first 20 entries from List of Pokémon by National Pokédex number and made it sortable. By clicking on the arrow next to each column heading, the list becomes by name, by Romaji, by number or by any other field.

Therefore, I propose that all these tables be merged into a single table, which can then be sorted by whatever fields the user chooses. La  ï  ka 09:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * second that one all the way! do we even need to wait for an offical consensus on that? -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 15:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've created a full test version on my test page: User:Smurrayinchester/Template. I can't find any problems with it myself, but I'd like to see what others think of it first. La  ï  ka  15:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Note however that it does not however work for Sinnoh Pokémon; I wrote a spreadsheet which automatically merged all the tables, but since official English names (and in some cases, official Rōmaji) have not yet been released, I can't run these through the spreadsheet, and the proliferation of ???s would wreak havoc with the sorting. La  ï  ka  15:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yay, it's about time we had sortable lists. Wouldn't this make it practical to merge all Pokémon into one list?  We could have columns for each of the 4 games' Pokédex numbers, name variants, what generation the Pokémon is, and maybe even by C O L O R !  --Brandon Dilbeck 01:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Uh oh, I found an issue with Smurrayinchester's sample. If you tell it to sort by Johto Dex or something, the dashes precede the numerals (so that post-Johto Pokémon appear before Chikorita).  We ought to avoid this!  --Brandon Dilbeck 02:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've come up with a solution, but it's a very ugly hack (an invisible 999 for every Pokémon with no data). I'll try to find a better solution. La  ï  ka  10:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "invisible"? Is the font color changed to match the background?  That would be annoying to people who want to copy and paste the list to find that it has a bunch of 999s in it.  --Brandon Dilbeck 18:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Exactly; that's what I mean by ugly. I've posted a comment at village pump; maybe someone there can come up with a solution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smurrayinchester (talk • contribs)


 * i also requested help at the signpost talk page that refers to sortable. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 01:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * (edit conflicted) User:Ais523 has come up with a good fix; adding # to the start of each number (eg #152) is completely inconspicous, yet fixes the table! So, now that it all works, what do people think of implementing the table? La  ï  ka  15:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Common sense would suggest we replace the dashes with NA. -- The Raven's Apprentice (Talk 15:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * No, it looks messy and the table still sorts wrongly. La  ï  ka  15:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * it would apear the problem has been solved. "#" sorts after "-" so an appropriate, clean solution has been implemented. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 15:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Right now, it looks like the default listing setting is by English name, but I think that's because that's the order in which they're typed in the source coding. I think we ought to arrange it so that the default sorting is by Nat'l Dex because there's nothing better than serial numbers! It just feels right to have Bulbasaur at the top. --Brandon Dilbeck 19:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorted! I'm tempted to add fourth-gen Pokémon to the list, but I think that the ???s would look out of place for now, given that they sort first in the list alphabetically. La  ï  ka  21:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh man, as a person with OCD, this is my dream. We can finally go back to having one article labeled "List of Pokémon" with this sorting thing. Names, numbers, colors, heights, weights; everything could be added! DanPMK 09:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm interested in seeing if there's any progress with this. Did anyone say anything at the Village Pump? Can someone provide a link to the Village Pump discussion or any other relevant discussions? --Brandon Dilbeck 20:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, time for work. Someone copy-paste User:Smurrayinchester/Template into List of Pokémon, but make sure you add the Diamond/Pearl numbers first. And then get AMIB to delete all the other lists. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ( Profile 16:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think first, we should discuss what columns to put into the table. I'm going to begin a new discussion for this at the bottom of the page.  --Brandon Dilbeck 23:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. Raven’s, what the hell are you thinking? There’s no way we should just go ahead on implementing this and deleting several articles without a thorough discussion about the shape and content of the new master list. --WikidSmaht (talk) 08:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a note, though I think I’ve made this clear below: I see no reason to delete the other lists entirely, we can just redirect them, as the project is essentially a megamerge. --WikidSmaht (talk) 08:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Help Zappernapper with his current pet project, get a cookie
I've been overhauling Pokémon game mechanics and need some help as it's an exhaustive project. I know it was in a sorry state a few months ago, got nom'd for AfD, and Highway went through and tore out everything smelling of cruft just to please the masses (the PP thing was my fault, I merged it and never got back to it to fixing it). However we were left with a page that was the source from several redirects which no longer were covered by the topic, and other topics that would be expected to be covered on that page were on their own pages, without even a mention. I've gone through and added several stub sections that can be written about and even written a few (bet many of you thought Pokémon moves could never be much more than a crufty list). I really wish we could move away from having group foci on Crawdaunt and Quilava when Pokémon has a clean-up tag, Mewtwo is a broken GA, and a page like Pokémon game mechanics is so vital to lay-people understanding the game at its basic level. If you don't feel the urge to write a whole section, I'd like some copyediting help for grammar and clarity, because sometimes i wonder if i'm being unclear or confusing. see the talk page for more specific questions.

Of course the only kind of cookie I can promise you'll get is the kind on your computer and you must be logged in, but hey it's something right? Happy editing! -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 18:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I started an overhaul of that article in late November, but I only saved my work as drafts on my computer, I never applied any changes to the article. I am once again working from those drafts now, and finding it a bit difficult because I’m also trying to preserve the work you guys have done since - even though you went in a very different direction in some cases. If I wipe anything out, please don’t take it personally, and instead of reverting it, please help me find a way to blend my version with yours. --WikidSmaht (talk) 20:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Japanese
Many of the Pokémon articles have Japanese names in them. Is this really needed in the English Wikipedia?  T ennis  Dy N ami T e  (sign here) 03:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the original name in the original language is important. -Amarkov blahedits 03:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, as the names were all originally Japanese and the games are Japanese in origin. It's something stated at WP:MOS-JA as well as in what is more than likely a manual of style for this project.—Ryūlóng ( 竜龍 ) 03:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay. I wasn't familiar with that guideline. Thanks!  T ennis  Dy N ami T e  (sign here) 04:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Plural or Singular? Seriously, I think we need to reconsider this...
I'm guessing that it's accepted convention to write about all Pokemon in the plural sense. I'm also guessing that this convention was set after a group consensus was made. However, I think we should look at this again, as there is one deep flaw in this convention.

"Torchic (アチャモ, Achamo?) are one of the 493 fictional species of Pokémon creatures"

Every Pokemon article defines its subject as a species, right? But then we talk about the subject in the plural form, as if the article was about many individuals, and not the group. This is inconsistant and improper use of the word, "species". I think that, after the initial sentence, articles should refer to the Pokemon as "The ___", or "The ____ species". Of course, that second one makes me wince, since we should avoid applying scientific terms to the Pokemon world. But we should either change the intro to more correctly use "species", or stop (trying to) strictly talk about the Pokemon in the plural sense.

If you look at articles on animals, the name is always in the singular form, and the first paragraph usually refers to the animal as "The (animal)", and then when it presents facts about the subject, it talks about the animals. I think this is a good convention to follow, since it's less awkward, and it's not being "inconsistent" or anything, just simply clearer. It would also be great too, if, when describing anatomy and attacks, we could use singular, but when talking about social habits or generalizations about many individuals of the same species, we use the plural. What do you think? Blueaster 06:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Note that whatever we choose to do, the plural form is the same as the singular. That is shown in the series itself, so we can't do anything about it. -Amarkov blahedits 06:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

We still have to use the words "they", "are" "were" "have", instead of "it", "is" "was" "has". So it makes a large difference, across all the Pokemon articles on WP.

in addition, the intro to each Pokemon article is still severely flawed. Every time I bring it up, everyone seems to focus on the non-problem parts... Blueaster 06:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The singular/plural thing is just part of the problem. Much of HighwayCello's legacy needs to be pondered over again. Almost everyone wices at the sight of the long, comma-spliced, complicated intros plus the extremely long-winded and ridiculously scientific way of writing Pokémon articles. But what's the alternative?? -- The Raven's Apprentice (Talk 06:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * How about...tossing the current intro, creating a new one that's clear, consise, and simply beautiful, voting on its approval, assigning articles to members of this project, and go ahead and place it on each and every Pokemon article on WP? Maybe bots and a template might play into this, but seriously, I have no idea how Torchic got FA status with the horrible intro and plural form constraints. Blueaster 07:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Simply because there aren't any grammatical errors in the intro. But as for the proposal-- who do we have who can write something like that?? Highway's done his bit, and I daresay that, if I was asked to write an intro, It'd turn out pretty much the same. Similar deal for everyone else in the Project, I guess But-- do we have any volunteers?? Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice  (Talk 08:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that the intro could be alot more concise if it linked to the terms Pokémon trainer (like how the Caterpie article does) and Pokémon Battle, (which would be a centralized article containing info on battles in the anime/manga, videogames, and cardgames. It shouldn't be too difficult, although battles in the anime/manga might be hard to talk about in any verifiable way.). Blueaster 18:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Back to the plural/singular thing. Are you saying it would awkward reading "Dogs are carnivorous." rather than "The dog is carnivorous." ?  I'm a little unclear about which side you're on because first you say:
 * "...after the initial sentence, articles should refer to the Pokemon as 'The ___'..." (emphasis added)
 * then in the next paragraph:
 * ... [in] articles on animals, the name is always in the singular form, and the first paragraph usually refers [it] as 'The (animal)', and then when it presents facts ... it talks about the animals. I think this is a good convention to follow..."
 * could you clarify? -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 00:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If we use singular form, we should go with the indefinite article, it sounds much better. So, for instance, "a Snorlax", "an Abra", etc. Or, we could just not care about the form. (How many debates over at WikiProject Cats do you think occur over whether articles should be written "A Siamese cat is" or "Siamese cats are"?) But either way, indefinite article is really much better. -Amarkov blahedits 02:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * i think one reason why we may be inclined to speak of pokemon in the plural sense without articles is becuase that is how the pokedex and english translation of the anime tend to discuss them. Even Dexter uses this terminology, think back to the first episode where it tells Ash about Pidgey, Rattata, and Spearow.  Easier to verify, look up some pokedex entries on serebii or psypokes. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 04:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

This is funny
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_Trading_Card_Game

The TCG article has been listed as an article in need of cleanup.

This is just hillarious, seeing that it is now in a better position than it has ever been in before.

HAHAHA!!!

Okay.

Time to get serious. WHAT needs to be worked on with this article? I'm looking for ideas. Whatever you list WILL be done (eventually).

Spinach Dip 23:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Aside from the humongous, life-consuming task of applying citations and sources to the entire article, there's not much that looks wrong with it to me, personally. If there's any usages of "you" in the article, such as "you only play this card when you have four pokemon on your bench", those should be changed to something like "the player can only play this card with stuff on his or her bench". Erik Jensen (Appreciate 19:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Adding resources is going to make me cry. But I will get to it.


 * And BTW, there were some references to 'when you play this card...' but I removed tham all last night.


 * Anything else? Spinach Dip 22:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Random thoughts:
 * Too much about how to play.
 * Needs a picture of a more-recent card; we've been through two card redesigns (Neo, EX) with a new one (DP) on the way.
 * Needs a major copyedit; lots of typos, misused of caps, etc.
 * Nothing whatsoever about the creation of the game.
 * Nothing whatsoever about the various controversies.
 * Why is a banned list that hasn't been relevant for two years more than a footnote?
 * References?

It needs a lot of work. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:29, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Very nice list, there. The 1 thing I have a problem with is the 'creation of the game', since it was created in Japan, and there are no resources about it at all.


 * I'll get to the rest of it whenever I have free time. Spinach Dip 09:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Nintendo Power has covered the creation of the card game. Plus, we can use Japanese sources. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * happen to know the month and year? -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 22:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

poke-cleanup's new groove
Hah. Anyway, I added to the cleanup tag the ability to track the date of taggage (well actually, I compared the code to the new cleanup tag), so I should ask that, since Wikipedia itself doesn't want the generic cleanups without dates, and for the purposes of organisation for cleanup, that articles are tagged with their cleanup date (eg. ). - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 06:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Chatot
Well... The name “Chatot” is - ugh - official now. I hope its annoying voice is slightly less set in stone, and I really wish it had been Parrap, seeing as it even did a rap in its first appearance. Anyway, anyone who is so inclined may now go through articles by hand or with a bot, replacing “&lt;!--DO NOT CHANGE--&gt;Perap&lt;!--The name Chatot IS NOT OFFICIAL YET, no matter HOW sure Serebii and other fansites are. Until an OFFICIAL source like Nintendo.com, Pokemon.com, Nintendo Power, or a press release reveals the official English name, LEAVE IT AS “Perap”, the OFFICIAL romanization of the Japanese name.--&gt;” with “Chatot”. --WikidSmaht (talk) 14:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Changed in the Chatot article. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice  (Talk 15:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Dark City (Pokémon)
Another editor has added the "prod" template to the article Dark City (Pokémon), suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the editor doesn't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the article (see also What Wikipedia is not and Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia or discuss the relevant issues at its talk page. If you remove the prod template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 03:11, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's basically an episode summary of "Showdown at Dark City". I see no reason to keep this article if it's already summarized in the List of Pokémon episodes.  --Brandon Dilbeck 06:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Pokefair
Template:Pokefair has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. --T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 12:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * the discussion was closed (perhaps prematurely) with a no consensus. I've updated the above link. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 15:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Semi-Protection: List of Sinnoh Gym Leaders
I've asked for semi-protection of the Sinnoh Gym Leaders page because of IP edits that have been chaning the Japanese names with English names. I've asked them to stop but they have refused. -Sukecchi 14:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Update: It has been given protection....regardless of how little information is there, perhaps we should work on it a bit?-Sukecchi 19:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Need admin help
Er, there are still some admins in here, right? If not, someone please reply to this and let me know. Anyway... Ugh, thanks for not telling me about the deletion of Template:pokerefs. I won’t bitch about it too much since there was apparently consensus, however compiling and listing those references took quite a bit of time, so could an admin please retrieve the text for me?( The edit text with markup, please, not just display text.) You can dump it to a subpage... I guess User:WikidSmaht/pokerefs will do. Oh, and the very thorough Mr. Titoxd deleted the talk page, too, so I would appreciate if you could dump that to User_talk:WikidSmaht/pokerefs since I listed some other useful things there that were not included in the actual template. --WikidSmaht (talk) 19:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be a lot easier just to ask an admin directly...go ask A Man In Black, or something. Hbdragon88 00:16, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Sprites vs. real pictures...
Fourth generation being so new, certain articles only have game sprites for pictures, including the two new Eeveelutions. Ech, is there anywhere from which to get true pictures? Niki Whimbrel 16:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * By "true pictures", I assume you mean like Ken Sugimori's Bulbasaur. I don't know where the pictures come from, but I insist that if we don't have Sugimori's art for a Pokémon, we keep its sprite in the article instead.  A while back, I think someone was removing the sprite images in anticipation of Sugimori's work even though it wasn't yet available.  --Brandon Dilbeck 18:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * the pictures were found at pokemonelite2000.com as stated in their description pages, however pictures for the latest release aren't available. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 01:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

List of Pokémon sortable table
I think we ought to discuss what columns would be appropriate to add to a sortable table (see WT:PCP). Now of course, names and Pokédex numbers seem like very reasonable additions. --Brandon Dilbeck 23:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, I'm not so sure about adding Pokémon stage. For one thing, I'm not sure why someone might need to sort by that, but I also still have a problem with the terms "Baby", "Basic", "Stage 1", and "Stage 2". Isn't it kind of confusing that Golem is a "Stage 2" Pokémon, even though it's the third evolutionary step (after Geodude and Graveler)? And then there's the whole Togepi problem... --Brandon Dilbeck 23:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Also!!! I think it might be a good idea to include which generation the Pokémon is, despite the fact that the Nat'l Dex number already kinda handles this. But currently, List of Pokémon by National Pokédex number has them grouped by generation, so I don't think it'd be a horrible idea. Also, I see an issue with sorting by type&mdash;namely, with dual-type Pokémon having two types to sort. --Brandon Dilbeck 23:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

And I thought I'd throw out a few more ideas as well. Height and weight? They seem a little extraneous for an encyclopedia, but the Pokédexes in the games have functions to sort them by height and weight. I thought I'd just present these ideas too to see what others think&mdash;I personally wouldn't include them, but I think it'd be selfish to keep the idea to myself. I'm brainstorming here. --Brandon Dilbeck 23:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... So, we’re looking at: National #, Kanto #, Johto #, Hoenn #, Sinnoh #, Ranger #, English name, Japanese name, Official Romanization, possibly type, height, and weight( we definitely want to use the height and weight templates if we add those). Maybe “color”, as given by the ’dex? Or foreign-language names, since some Pokémon will now have foreign ’dex entries available? I definitely think we should leave stage out of it, that list can stay seperate due to controversy, obscurity( it’s really a TCG thing), and confusion.
 * What I would like to see is some way to sort the whole damn list by evolution, with Pokémon families appearing in order of the first member of a family to be in a game, i.e.: normal list from Bulbasaur to Arbok, then Pichu, Pikachu, Raichu, normal to Nidoking, Cleffa, Clefairy, etc... Bellossom after Vileplume, Esp- & Umbreon, Leaf-, and Glacia after Flareon, respective babies and (new) evolutions before and after Electabuzz and Magmar( and later in the list, Roselia). That sort of thing. I have an idea as to how to do that, but I’d like to see if anyone has a better idea first.
 * We have two options for type: 1), we can put them with a slash, and let each type combination fall into sort order as it does. 2) “Type 1” and “Type 2” columns. This makes perfect sense to me, as it’s how the types are regarded in-game. Or I guess 3) leave it out because we have Category listings to take care of that.
 * We don’t have to worry about making the list too wide, in fact, wide is good, because we can no longer split it into side-by-side columns . As you can see by looking at the Johto list, which someone already modified, clicking the sort button on any column header only sorts the Pokémon in the half of the list falling directly under that header. --WikidSmaht (talk) 08:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * TOGEPI HATCHES FROM AN EGG!!! IT CANNOT LAY EGGS!!! Therefore, it is it not a Baby in itself?
 * Oh, and I agree with Brandon about how confusing the "STAGE 1/2" thingy is. - NP Chilla 16:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course it’s a Baby. However, some people refuse to acknowledge this because the TCG, where the idea of stages originated, treats it as a Basic Pokémon. Given that the only non-legendary Basic Pokémon that can’t breed is Unown( which, unlike Togepi, does not evolve into something that CAN) it’s pretty obvious. However, like we’ve all said, the controversy and confusion are good reasons to keep Stage out of the master list and leave it as a sub-article. --WikidSmaht (talk) 16:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't intend to start a discussion about Togepi. About sorting by types, well, I'm not so sure it would work perfectly for people wishing to sort the list by type.  It might be good if someone's sorted the list alphabetically and can scroll down the list to Manectric and see in the same row that it's an Electric type, but the dual-type Pokémon make it complicated to sort by type, whether we make the table have one or two columns for it.  For example, our beloved Bulbasaur is a Grass/Poison type.  Crobat is a Poison/Flying type.  For Crobat, Poison is Type 1, but it's Type 2 for Bulbasaur.  I hope it's obvious how annoying it would be to sort by type in this example.  --Brandon Dilbeck 20:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * i think that numbers and names are fine. And regrettably, only japanese and english names should be included because this is an english encyclopedia (although i have a completely different opinion about the articles themselves, but that's another discussion) and japan is the country of origin.  Using the sortable list to do types and stages is obviously going to be too complicated to be of any practical use and they are much better handled by the categories.  Height and weight are quaint, but don't seem to have a practical application save for discovering the smallest and largest current pokemon (and the actual pokemon site handles that just fine). -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 22:21, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, with one question: do we need the Ranger Browser numbers? Considering that those numbers aren't even listed in the species infoboxes, it seems a little extraneous.~e.o.t.d~ 00:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, DanPMK has suggested adding Ranger numbers to the species infoboxes at Template talk:Pokémon species. --Brandon Dilbeck 00:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The case that Togepi is a basic is based on the argument that "stage" is a meaningless term outside of the TCG, and in the TCG Togepi is a basic.

I feel this way, but additionally I feel that stage is meaningless and unhelpful in the infobox.

Also, do we really need the Ranger numbers? We're already up to four without it, and the Ranger scheme seems unlikely to reappear in any later work. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the Johto numbers are obsolete, and I doubt the Hoenn numbers would be used again either. I'd keep it in just for completeness sake. I agree Stage should be eliminated from pretty much everything, including the infobox. DanPMK 17:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Why not ditch all but National? It's the only scheme that covers them all. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Because the whole point of the sortable tables was to allow us to eliminate List of Pokémon by name, List of Pokémon by Johto Pokédex number, List of Pokémon by Hoenn Pokédex number, and List of Pokémon by Sinnoh Pokédex number without controversy( by merging them into the main list)! And while you would probably like to delete those anyway, if you tried to do it as things stand now, you would face significant opposition.( Guess which side I’d be on.) If we only include the National number, we might as well not make it sortable in the first place and just leave the collection of lists as-is, because, seriously, who needs to switch orders from National-ascending to National-descending? --WikidSmaht (talk) 06:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * AMIB's reading comprehension grade = F.
 * Feel free to sort by whatever number in the lists, sure. I still thinking ditching stage might be wise, though. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly on dropping the “Stage” column, and the general tone of this particular discussion seems to indicate a consensus for that. --WikidSmaht (talk) 08:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, with this discussion at the point it’s currently at, I’m about ready to go ahead and do it tomorrow. If anyone feels that the discussion is NOT settled, please say so. In terms of order, I was thinking Nat#, Eng name, Jap name, Romaji, ™ Roman, Kanto#, Johto#, Hoenn#, Ranger#, Sinnoh#. Again, any problems with that, please say so, as it will be a pain in the ass to change once done. --WikidSmaht (talk) 03:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * God, no, the discussion is not settled. Five numbering schemes is ridiculous. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not half as ridiculous as having 6 or 7 seperate lists. And it’s not like the 5 numbering schemes are arbitrary, they are the schemes Nintendo/Game Freak has created. If you don’t like multiple numberings, complain to them. --WikidSmaht (talk) 06:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Heh, I’m glad that’s settled. I thought the mention of merging many superfluous articles into one might appeal to you. I took a break to rescue my Manaphy Egg since the code’s been revealed, but now I’ll get back to writing out the first 50 Pokémon or so as a private test. If there are no other major objections by tomorrow I’ll finish the other... 443... and post it to List of Pokémon, then redirect the others. --WikidSmaht (talk) 08:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Do we need both Rōmaji and Trademarked Romanization in the table? I personally don't care to have either, but am not righteously opposed to keeping them either.  It's just that there's three columns for Japanese names, you know... --Brandon Dilbeck 18:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well we need one or the other, for people who can’t read katakana. I prefer the trademarked romanization, but I really don’t mind leaving both. --WikidSmaht (talk) 18:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * i personally like having both, but it may make more sense to only have the Romanizations because this is an English wiki and we must be assuming that people will be only knowing english for practical purposes. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 19:51, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

In case nobody noticed, WikidSmaht updated the List of Pokémon with the sortable tables. --Brandon Dilbeck 21:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, good. But what's the "evolution" column for?? It's completely blank, as of now. -- The Raven's Apprentice ( Profile 03:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It just looks blank. Try clicking it. It sorts by evolutionary families, in order of the first representative of each to appear in the National Pokédex.( You have to read down the list a bit to find the first difference.) --WikidSmaht (talk) 08:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * WikidSmaht, it looks excellent. :) The "Evolution" column was definitely a good idea, although it might not hurt to add in a little note on what it does, for non-fans to whom it isn't obvious.~e.o.t.d~ 04:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I did find one problem with the table: when set to Japanese Name order, Houndoom was appearing at the top of the list. I fixed it, though, just a small kana issue. :) If anyone's interested in what it was exactly, I left anote on the discussion page. ~e.o.t.d~ 05:12, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I dunno anything about Houndour, the name information was all just copied from the old list by Nat’l number. Er, I thought I did have a note about sorting by Pokémon they evolve from and into. --WikidSmaht (talk) 13:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I find the change unhelpful, we do want seperate list for different pokedexes. -- Cat out 07:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, do you think you could explain your reasoning? No one else seems to feel that way, so it would be helpful to know why you think that, instead of just that you do. --WikidSmaht (talk) 13:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I originally thought some disturbed individual (vandal) was causing havoc. That list in its new form is truly remarkable! -- Cat out 16:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

A glossary page proposal
Well rather than try and create this page and have it shot down (and because I was having a hard time coming up with content) I'm entertaining the idea of a Glossary of Pokémon terms, my admittedly lazy example can be found here. This page is in the spirit of pages like Glossary of American football and List of poker terms. You see more at List of glossaries. The most controversial aspect of these types of articles is a lack of sources, something even our regular articles become faced with so often that we resort to refbloating. neways, for an experiment, i'd like to invite everyone to edit the page in my sandbox and see if we could actually make a respectable list of terms for those who don't want to necessarily read through the whole in-depth article on Pokémon evolution or Pokémon game mechanics just to understand some basic concepts. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 00:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

digging up the not-yet-dead horse, species uniformity
Well for those who'd like to read the original discussion, it can be found here. Basically it's a proposition for an attempt to create the kind of professional cohesion and uniformity found within an encyclopedia but decidedly lacking in this one. Examples can be seen in the differences between Torchic, Gloom (Pokémon), and Arbok. And examples of the idea in action can be found in Eevee and it's evolutions. A more thorough reiteration of the concept is outlined at Template talk:PokePage. Below is an attempt at an honest summary of the previous discussion. Editors who participated in the discussion are encouraged to correct any mistakes within this leading post.


 * Pros
 * Creates a clean, professional look
 * Helps to encourage use of style guidlines both within project and the whole of Wikipedia
 * Saves large amounts of time when consensus is agreed for a new style guideline, applying changes to 493 articles at once.
 * Uniformity makes locating information easier for users unfamiliar with the pages.


 * Cons
 * Template vandalism
 * Drain on server resources (when templates are changed)
 * Ugly in edit window
 * No precedent
 * Uniformity doesn't matter, each article will have different content anyways
 * Standardizing one by one is simpler
 * Needless server demand


 * Response to cons
 * Semi-protection is a reasonable safeguard to vanadalism, and the templates are vandalized far less often than the articles themselves.
 * Templates are unlikely to be changed often enough that they would drain the server resources
 * Prettiness in the edit window is a fine sacrifice for prettiness in the actual articles
 * Precedents include main, seealso, otheruses, etc.
 * All articles have content (or will in the near future, D/P) on things like the video games, anime, physical characteristics, and other media (TCG, mange, etc.) and so these sections should be similarly named.
 * Standardizing one by one doesn't work, as evidenced with the change from Biology and Appearance to Characteristics (many of the articles still contain the defunct headers).
 * Server demand would seem similar, and can be ignored when there is good reason for the change.

And so I open up the floor again to this unresolved discussion. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 00:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

it seems no one wants to even touch this... i suppose i could take the fact that no one has raised any objections on the 8 pages that have been implementing this for a long time as acquiescence, but i don't really like deciding things should be one way and then bulldozing through pages, i'd like to use AWB but this could be construed as a controversial edit. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 18:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * didn't we just have a template deleted for pokenumbers? This is basically doing the same thing, is it not? Uniformity is fine, but many pokemon have little to nothing outside of the video games, and maybe the anime. Gloom, for example, is not really in the anime enough to really have a great be section on it; nor does Gloom appear hundreds of times in Cards and other pokemon related stuff.


 * Frankly, it would be easier to create a bot or two to maintain multiple articles and fix them up, such as uniformally changing the headings.--Honeymane Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam 18:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

actually, pokenum was not deleted, Pokestart was, and the similarities between the three of them are few. They each have a different purpose and reasoning for their use. Pokenum's purpose is to aid in changing articles that reference the number of pokemon so that they remain accurate without editors having to sift through all articles that contain a certain number (e.g. 493). Pokestart was a "building by template" tool that this project has shifted away from wanting to do (i say shifted b/c in the past this project has used such templates as pokestart, pokerefs, and still uses pokefair). The templates i'm introducing are akin to main or seealso, they provide a way to maintain a professional consistent look and organization that would be expected in an encyclopedia. For your Gloom example, read through the orginal discussion and my comparison of Wolf to Penguin. you know, it would be nice if someone made a bot to do this kind of stuff and if you know how or know someone who'd take the time, then go right ahead :) i suppose AWB could make it a little simpler, but like i said before, even if we make all the changes now... if the project ever changes its mind, again, someone (or the bot) will still have to take the time to go through all 400+ articles.  A template is just simpler and easier to use for both present and future articles. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 19:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

"Japanname" field
Me and Honeymane are having what is quickly becoming a spat/edit war, so just give me an answer as to whether the "Japanese name" field in the species infobox is for the Romanization (i.e. Sunnygo) or Roma-ji/katakana (i.e. Sanīgo/サニーゴ). The on all Sinnoh Pokémon pages just powerfully suggest Romanization only.—ウルタプ 03:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * From what I've gathered, trademark names can go into the Japan name box, where romanisation and pronounciation are kept to the article's start name. - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 04:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've suggested a change to the template to bypass this debate entirely here. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 16:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Arseus and Moltres are examples. Any objections? '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 17:25, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Examples? How so? --WikidSmaht (talk) 21:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Userboxes
What about a small subsection on this page showing userboxes that people can put on their page, saying they're part of it, support it etc.? Cipher (Yell) 22:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll add Template:User WikiProject PCP to the Templates section of our project page. --Brandon Dilbeck 23:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I lied. I put it under the Participants section.  Someone please feel free to rewrite what I wrote or move it or whatever.  I don't care.  I also thought about adding the template to the page so people could see what it looks like, but didn't because it would add the project page to Category:Pokémon Collaborative Project members.  So if someone knows how to add the template without adding the page to the category, do so!  --Brandon Dilbeck 23:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

More fictional cat[egory] problems...
Akin to how Electabuzz got included in Wikiproject Cats, Vaporeon was recently put in the scope of the Cryptozoology wikiproject because it was listed as a type of merfolk. I've removed the cat and the tag from the article. Just leaving a note here in case anyone really thinks it should've been kept like that. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 19:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC) These other WikiProjects are getting kind of annoying…/swt—ウルタプ 22:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Why the hell is Electabuzz in the fictional extraterrestrial category? X_x -Sukecchi 19:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd assume it's because of the plugs on the heads of its evolutionary family. :x - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 22:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Aren't ALL Pokémon considered from "this" Earth outside of the whole "coming to Earth on the Moon Stone" thing? And I don't think Vaporeon counts as an acknowledged cryptid just because it's got a fish tail.
 * And it is particularly annoying when anyone seems to think that WP:OWN doesn't apply to them, as seems to be the case here. Honestly, the purpose of categorization is to link related articles. If you all don't think that your characters should be included in categories that relate them to other entities, then it makes sense not to put them in those categories in the first place. If you do, then I can honestly think of no one else who deserves the criticism than the person trying to link something to something else, and then complaining when someone else actually does so. Badbilltucker 22:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I’m not sure who that was aimed at, but, assuming it was us: The point is that Electabuzz is NOT related to any cats or extraterrestrials, and Vaporeon is not related to merfolk. And it’s certainly not a cryptid, because no one claims it to exist in the real world( except maybe that one dude from a few months ago who kept writing that Jynx and Mewtwo had been sighted in the US and Europe), and its existence in the Pokémon world is well-known and documented. No one objects( at least I hope not) when Meowth or Skitty or Nyarmar are added to Fictional Cats, or when Deoxys is a Fictional Extraterrestrial, because those categorizations are correct and consistent with the internal reality. --WikidSmaht (talk) 23:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I think what is happening is that some people had long ago added these "Fictional X" categories and most of us either didn't notice them or didn't really care. I agree with BadBill, that we don't OWN thse articles, and if the Cat project would like to lend a hand they are more than welcome to, that's what a wiki is neways. The problems arose when articles of questionable categorization became added to other projects. I assure you that no one complaining here is someone who added Electabuzz to cats or Vaporeon to merfolk. It's just that these new projects have brought to light some awkward subjectivity and we are trying to deal with each of the 493 articles as they are brought to light. I also assure you, BadBillTucker, that this wikiproject is in no way trying to OWN any of the articles, we often share scope with the anime and CVG projects. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 17:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 493 is a lot of articles, but clicking through to remove bad Categories shouldn’t take more than an hour or two, especially with the convenient National ’dex navigation. I would, but I’m up to my ears in Poképrojects already, what with finishing the sortable list and the Game Mechanics overhaul. --WikidSmaht (talk) 21:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * One of the things I am trying to do with the assessments and banner placement of all the projects that do assessment (and they all will do assessments, sooner or later :) ), on the Philosophy and Religion Project Directory page is straighten out the categorization there to remove the overlapping, so I can understand the frustration. Right now, unreal as it sounds, all of Category:Jainism falls in the Category:Jesus, and that's just one of the more obvious ones. Sorry for having been overcritical earlier. Going through particularly the cryptids was more than a little nerveracking. Were they biological, mythological, paranormal, or just causes of migraines? Thanks for your consideration, and my apologies again. Badbilltucker 01:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Tamanta to Mantyke
For some reason, I can't move the page. Is something wrong? TRK tv t c e 14:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No idea about why you can't move it, but the name's not officially confirmed. Keep your hands off the article!!! Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ( Profile 16:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If you read WP:MOVE, you will see that you can’t move the page because Mantyke has an edit history. The move cannot be completed without an admin’s help. However, as Raven’s said, the name Mantyke is NOT offical, because Serebii.net is a FANSITE, NOT an official Nintendo source. That is probably the correct English name, but until it is OFFICIALLY CONFIRMED in the games, the anime, or an OFFICIAL Nintendo publication/press release, it will stay Tamanta on the Wikipedia, where we only deal with credible sources. --WikidSmaht (talk) 21:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions?
I've been working on Snorunt for a while now, and I've gone through a good deal of Good Articles and pulled format and used Torchic as a guide for a couple things. I've implemented Pokestart, and added in a lot of the starters for the TGC, Anime, and such. I also cleaned out some of the crap and added a huge chunk for the video game section, not to mention, I added every source there at the moment. I'd like to get this at least to be nominated for Good Article some time soon, but I'm not sure what this needs before I even bother considering doing that. Any suggestions on what to do?

P.S.: I still need a good few pictures for the article, which are listed on the Talk Page. If you could help me, I'd be much obliged. I'm going to see what I can do about a few of these, but whatever help I could get would be appruciated. Jeri-kun 01:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Honestly, your work is paying off - it looks a lot better to me than most of the other articles. The biggest thing I can see is that the first paragraph of the video game section is a bit on the cruftish side - the info about its XD appearance could probably go, as can the details of Shoal Cave's tides - but other than that, it looks like it's well on its way.~e.o.t.d~ 04:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I cleaned that up a little, and shuffled some of the cruft out. Thanks for the catch. But I'm still not perfectly happy with it... Any more opinions or should I go ahead and self-nom? Jerichi ~Profile~Talk~ 12:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Victory Road
Victory Road (Pokémon) is such a tiny, stubby article...I don't think it deserves an article (if this deserves one, then something like Rival's house would be justified as well). However, as this transcends more than one generation (it exists in R/B/Y and R/S/E), it can't easily be merged into any article. Suggestions? Prod, AFD? Merge into a new article titled List of notable locations in the Pokémon video games (which would encompass locations such as the Rival's house, player's house, the Pokémon lab in the player's hometown, and the big corporation that the evil organization wants to take over). Hbdragon88 03:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * In the games, it is the final dungeon before the Elite Four, right? Mabey it can get a paragraph there? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spriteless (talk • contribs) 16:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC).


 * What is there to say about the rival's house that would warrant its own article? --Brandon Dilbeck 21:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Nothing, I think that’s the point. --WikidSmaht (talk) 08:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Merged into Elite Four. Thanks, Spriteless. Hbdragon88 07:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Help Here
I am a pokemon fanatic and I an name every pokemon, specis, ect. I would love to help! Can I? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Race99999 (talk • contribs) 23:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Dude, just be bold and get cracking. We need all the help we can get, most of our articles yet have to receive GA status. Oh, and do mind your typos. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ( Profile 03:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ditto. In particular, please note that it is “Pokémon” with a capital P and an accent over the e, NOT “pokemon”. Ever. --WikidSmaht (talk) 08:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Another PokéMotto
Check this out. "493" (inserted using pokenum) links to Pokémon. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ( Profile 07:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hahaha, subtle but fun. Pi as well... Hehe. Cheers! - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 08:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Another? There was one before? --WikidSmaht (talk) 08:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this one. -- The Raven's Apprentice ( Profile 08:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

CFD notice
The related Category:Pokémon voice actors has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.

English name stufferabilia
This is something that's been on my mind lately. I've a lot to say about how English names are handled in Wikipedia, be it news from Serebii.net that requires a paragraph overlooking WP:V, nonstandard implementations merely to notify readers about how names are mistranslated (and WP:CVG suggests usage of Template:Future_game), and placeholders that simply don't work right with the style guides. I consider all these non-standard. What are we, and what would I, be supposed to follow? It urgently needs discussion (and it covers our scope). Cheers. - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 22:53, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, WP:V says that information should be taken from credible sources, per WP:RS, which, as Raijinili pointed out, suggests use of common sense as an occasional overriding factor. Common sense indicates that, although Serebii is not reliable enough to change the whole article, after being correct about Chatot it should be taken seriously to some degree at least. Besides, that reversion was more about destroying instances of “Buizel” than about restoring the paragraph, though I do think the paragraph is necessary. As for the footnote, like I mentioned on the D/P talkpage, I only added it because I thought I read that someone objected to future_game once it was released in Japan( perhaps it was this edit summary?).--WikidSmaht (talk) 06:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand better now. I guess it wouldn't fail too much to reference him. As for Future Game, it's there to point out any changes. I think the editor might have noticed the template saying "in development". Now, it says "unreleased", which makes it a more appropriate template for this. Thanks for the clarifications. Cheers! - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 06:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Power Plant
Where should Power Plant (Pokémon) be merged? It spans two generations as well, and is arguably separate from Lavender Town, the city/town closest to the location (as it's abandoned and nobody knows about it). Should we create a new article titled Route 11 (Pokémon), or should I just prod it? Hbdragon88 07:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Kill(prod) it, and if this user is the same one that created the Victory road thing, tell him to stop. Cheers, --  The  Hyb  rid  07:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Alright, it isn't the same user. Having it deleted should send enough of a message. Cheers, --  The  Hyb  rid  07:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a huge problem, these articles about ridiculously small elements. In the past few days I've merged Jagged Pass, Mount Chimney, Lavender Tower, Petalburg Woods, among other things. There's still a slew of other small locations, like Mt. Silver, whatever woods in Johto, and other locations that I haven't gotten around to merging. Hbdragon88 07:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Jagged Pass?! I thought that TTV or I had merged that before. WTF is going on?! --  The  Hyb  rid  07:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Wait, I was thinking of something else. Nevermind. --  The  Hyb  rid  07:34, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps these should be merged into an article such as List of minor locations in Pokémon or List of miscellaneous locations in Pokémon?&mdash;M_C_Y_1008 (talk/contribs) 15:56, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe we could also merge it with Zapdos, but I think I like the idea of "List of minor locations in Pokémon". Shiny Umbreon 21:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Ehhh...some things just don't need articles. Some editors have already given thoughts to collapsing the city articles and merging them into the larger region articles, and I've found myself leaning towards that direction. Once you get rid of the unencyclopedic information (such as how-to information, like a paragraph describing whether the player should use the Escape Rope after delivering the letter to Steven in Granite Cave, lol), there isn't that much left. Hbdragon88 23:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * For places with Legendary Pokémon associated with them (Power Plant, Cerulean Cave, etc.), there could be a small mention of them within that Pokémon's article. But others, no.  Personally, I think that such non-remarkable places should be mentioned, but not beyond a single sentence in a somewhat related article.
 * And yes, I do believe that the city/town articles need to go: I was [] <-- this close to mass-deleting the astonishingly crufty "Demographics" sections earlier tonight, and I think I might still. They deserve no more than one paragraph, or maybe two, for the relatively notable ones.
 * Seriously, isn't all this stuff what Bulbapedia is for?~e.o.t.d~ 04:46, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Trademarked 4th Generation Romaji
I've been seeing some back and forth switching of 4th generation names recently (such as the case with Yukikabli), so I've just been having doubts as to which are officially confirmed romaji and which are not. Is there a source for the official romaji or are the names just being changed based on "educated guesses"? Os-osiris 06:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the situation with Yukikabli was that fans interpreted "Yukikaburi" as that, then PCP came to the decision to use plain Hepburn, then "Yukikabli" ended up being official.—ウルタプ 06:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks for the clarification. I can assume all the current 4th generation names listed are official then? Os-osiris 06:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the ones with the "trademarked Romanization" column filled in here. The rest are straight Hepburn.—ウルタプ 06:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That's just what I was looking for, thank you very much! Os-osiris 06:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

On a related note, does anyone know why six Pokémon (Korobōshi, Toritodon, Dōtakun, Fukamaru, Kabarudon, and Mojanbo) don't appear to have trademarked rōmaji names yet, while the rest do? Has the info-gathering just not been done yet, or are these names for some reason still unreleased?~e.o.t.d~ 04:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

request for clarification
I'm running into a disagreement as to how the language at serebii.net is to be interpreted regarding the new changes being made to the physical/special split. The page can be found here and the language I'm referring to is this:
 * "In Diamond & Pearl the Physical and Special Attacks are not done solely on type."

This led me to write in Pokémon game mechanics that phys and spec stats are affected also by the new mechanic rather than instead of. Another editor has disagreed with my reading of the article and has twice reverted the article. Perhaps the best way will be to mirror serebii's conclusion, that how this new mechanic will be implemented is not yet fully know - whether it is meant to replace to the old phys/spec split by type or merely work in tandem with it. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 20:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I will agree that the word “solely” is potentially confusing. But Serebii.net is full of bad grammar and poor word choices. The same meaning could have been more clearly conveyed by “whether attacks are physical or special is not just based on type anymore”. The sentence that follows is “This time, the classification of each attack and what stats[ i.e., Attack & Defense or Special A&D] it affects on both your Pokémon and the opponent Pokémon, is determined from the attack itself.”. Note again the bad grammar, the whole sentence is ass-backwards, with the attacks suddenly affecting the stats. I am continuing to search for a non-forum source to clear this up, but I certainly don’t object to anyone else finding it for me. --WikidSmaht (talk) 23:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "Previously, there was no actual way to tell if the attacks were Physical or if they were Special, except through the use of Guides and Websites. However with this massive change, now when you check the Pokémon's attack in the Status Screen, it will give you the classification including an icon to help determine this."-- leads me to believe that each attack is still only affected by one stat (i.e. either Attack or Special Attack, but not both). As for Serebii's conclusion that the mechanic is not fully known, that page was created months ago, when the game wasn't out yet in Japan, and Serebii most likely hasn't updated the page.&mdash;M_C_Y_1008 (talk/contribs) 00:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I happen to know that only one stat can affect each attack, and that the damage mechanics were not substantially changed, but a source would still be nice. -Amark moo! 01:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with you, Wikid, that the language is confusing and it could be construed either way. That's why I'm thinking we should create a blend of the two.  Of course if Amarkov is right, then I'm wrong.  I know we have quite a few people who read Japanese here and who've probably already obtained a copy of DP... can anyone attest to an explanation given in the rule books? -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 17:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Just FYI, Serebii's list of new Moves explains it more clearly.
 * Actually, if you look at the 3rd screenshot on the original link ZapperNapper gave (the screen for the attack Spark), there's a symbol which Serebii says means that the attack is Physical. I know Serebii's not exactly the definition of a reliable source, but I think there's almost enough evidence for this to be confirmed. ~e.o.t.d~ 05:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, no. I do think Serebii’s poor word choice is potentially confusing, but “confusing” is not the same as “open to interpretation”. Reading the rest of the page, I am sure “solely” was just that, a bad choice of wording, NOT an intentional means of implying that two stats are used for each attack. Plus, I am more certain now than ever, because I think Amarkov, while occasionally too hasty, knows better than to assert as knowledge something that has not been proven as fact. Amark, obviously the source of your knowledge isn’t citable by Wikipedia, or you would have done so; however, it would still benefit this discussion if you could explain to us how you “know” what the mechanic is. Zapper, according to your edit summary on the article, you came here to get “consensus opinion” in the absence of a reliable source either way. The consensus appears to be that each move is affected by either normal or special stats, not both, and that Serebii meant to say so but messed up. Of course, that definitely does not mean we should stop looking for a source to cite this fact. --WikidSmaht (talk) 15:36, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I found something in Serebii.net's archived news for July 2006 (July 26 update):
 * "Every Move is one of three different categories or Attack Natures; Physical, Special and Other. Physical & Special attacks derive themselves from the Physical & Special stats respectively while the Other category is used for the attacks that do not actually inflict damage"
 * It says "one" out of three categories, of which Physical and Special are two.&mdash;M_C_Y_1008 (talk/contribs) 15:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

it seems that we've reached a compromise here, and we'll just have to wait till the games are actually released to be more definitve within the articles, i think it's safest right now to not say that it's definite either way. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 02:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

New infobox
I have created Infobox Pokémon City to replace the clunky wikitables currently being used. Hbdragon88 03:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: The clunky wikitables were stolen from Bulbapedia. -- The Raven's Apprentice ( Profile 11:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

You need help?
Hey, I'm a Pokémon expert and was wondering if I could help. I'm a very experienced Wikipedian and am willing to help out. Do you need me because if you don't, I'm having a fit trying to make and edit Twilight Princess enemies and such. So if you don't need me, just say so. Pokemon Guy 17:00, 02 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyone's welcome, so go ahead and lend whatever expertise you have. We're big on WP:BOLD over here, so if you see a change that needs to be made, go ahead and make it. Welcome to ya!~e.o.t.d~ 05:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Heatran???
Is "Heatran" the official romanisation for Hīdoran or is it some made up fan romanisation? If the intended name really was "Heatran" wouldn't the katakana be "Hītoran" instead of "Hīdoran"? --Candy-Panda 05:51, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It is indeed official (as far as I know). The thing is, in Japanese, the katakana symbols ト (to) and ド (do) are the unvoiced and voiced versions of the same letter. Parts of words can change from unvoiced to voiced depending on what goes before them. ~e.o.t.d~ 01:35, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, and it is confirmed at this Japanese trademark database; when you search for ヒードラン, it'll come up with a trademark application with the romaji "HEATRAN" accompanying it. To search, input the Japanese name, ヒードラン, in the top search field, then click the left button just below the search fields. After the next page loads, there'll be a line of text and two buttons appearing above the search fields while the rest will appear pretty much unchanged; click the left of these two buttons to see the results, which has the trademark application there.&mdash;M_C_Y_1008 (talk/contribs) 01:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's the English version of the page. :) It doesn't work with katakana, but it's definitely useful to refer to while using the Japanese site.~e.o.t.d~ 02:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Template/copy-and-paste?
I notice some of the Pokémon pages have standard introductions in the Video Games and Anime sections. Problem is, they aren't standard in every Pokémon article, and sometimes they cause some strange issues.

For example, the Relicanth and Banette pages recently had the introductory paragraphs reinserted into the Video Games section, while Relicanth also has a paragraph for its Anime section. The paragraphs all have those footnote citation thingies, but they don't actually lead anywhere on the page, so they just sit there like gym socks on shower rods.

Since I'm a Wikipedia newbie, I don't actually know whether these paragraphs are coming from a template or whether someone's just copy-and-pasting them in, so it'd be great if someone could enlighten me on that (or tell me which pages to read). More importantly though, should these paragraphs be in the articles? In every article? And what should be done about the citations that don't go anywhere?

Thanks. Bhamv 06:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, they're just {{subst:pokeanime}} and some video game intro I'm not familiar with. The citations need a reference section to actually display the citation note, like this:

==References==
 * Try editing this page to see how it's done. Anyways, I'll be fixing it up on Relicanth and Banette. Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ( Profile 14:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I just hope nobody tries to add footnotes now... XD neways, you know this brings up the old discussion about building articles with templates and standard intros...  Take Relicanth for example, now while Pikachu is arguably comparable to Mario, why should we be mentioning him on every other page as well?
 * They were originally in Japanese, but later translated into many other languages. Worldwide, the games and their sequels have sold over 143 million copies, making them one of Nintendo's most popular game franchises, second only to Mario.[1]
 * The kind of introduction that is seen on these pages is informative but is is also extraneous and irrelevant. Someone who is seeking more information on Relicanth should not have to read through information that gets repeated on every single page, now while this may add to the "comprehensivenss" that FA articles require it creates a redundancy that is both unneeded, and, as evidenced by the many complaints lodged at this talk page, annoying. And it makes no sense for it to be on some articles but not others (except, as stated, perhaps Pikachu) so logically the choice is either none or all, and none is by far the more appealing choice. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 17:48, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Categorising TCG articles
When are the Trading Card Game articles going to be categorised regarding class and importance? If nobody else is going to do it, can I, or can only certain people do it? Cipher (Yell) 16:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Go right ahead, but bear in mind that I'm finally finishing the merges to List of Pokémon Trading Card Game sets, since those set articles are laden with unnecessary fair-use images, original research, and unencyclopedic lists. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 17:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Wait, what?
I seem to remember that the participants list for the PCP was in chronological order of who joined. Should that still be the case, I do recall my number having been shifted from 5 to 6, and then recently, 6 to 7. What's this about? - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 05:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It appears User:Pikasneez27 added himself into the third slot within the past week. Interesting he didn't go all the way to displace AMIB and myself from our thrones as the Lords of Pokemon. ^_^ Erik Jensen (Appreciate 05:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It's been chronological for a while now, so I've kept it consistent by shifting it. I swear I was fifth at one point. Can't be helped though.
 * And, way to credit yourselves. >:O - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 05:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * And according to this, I was before you? You bad, bad "lords". >:3 - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 06:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * And so I was 5th. Given the people who've left, wouldn't I be 2 or 3? Lords are you, classics am I. (That made no sense.) - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 06:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Clearly, there's been a lot of shifting around of each other's user names by other users, and your name got moved below mine at some point in time. I have never touched the positioning of my name or anyone else's on that list, however, so imagine my surprise when I looked at the page recently and found myself at number 2. Based on what we've found out, however, that list is no longer chronological due to various bits of abuse applied to it by many users, so perhaps we are best off making it an alphabetized list. I wouldn't mind that, I haven't been doing all that much Pokemon work anyway. Note however that it would still keep A Man In Black at the top of the list alphabetically. Erik Jensen (Appreciate 06:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I recall reading quite a while ago, someone started a topic (before I joined) to see who was still actively participating in the PCP. People signed their names in the talk page, then those names, in that order, replaced the members list (and people who didn't sign were removed).  The list was shortened from 83 to 25.  Then the list continued to grow from there.  I'd love to be higher in the list but don't think I should cut in line.  We ought to keep in mind that perhaps many of the people currently in the members list may not necessarily watch or contribute to discussions here at WT:PCP, but instead make edits to the Pokémon articles instead.  Editors don't have to talk here to be in this project.  --Brandon Dilbeck 06:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see; that's the reason I got to number 2. In that case, the list is indeed still chronological, so it can be kept as it is. Whew, I get to keep my office as vice president to the controversial president who does nothing but warring (Bush overseas, AMIB on many articles on Wikipedia). XD Erik Jensen (Appreciate 06:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Erik, shifted up, huh? Well, should we try converting to mere usage of out Wikiboxes like WP:CVG has? - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 07:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh, what exactly do you mean by that sentence? I can't decipher it for the life of me. It'd be hella Blastoise if you could clarify. Erik Jensen (Appreciate 02:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "Ah, so Erik, you've been shifted up, eh?" - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 03:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

WtF, Tetsuya? Why did you delete my topic when creating yours? --WikidSmaht (talk) 13:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Likely an edit error I made. Does the history still show it? - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 03:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, yeah. diff --WikidSmaht (talk) 15:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Whew, I get to keep my office as vice president to the controversial president who does nothing but warring (Bush overseas, AMIB on many articles on Wikipedia).
 * Hey, that's mean. ;.; - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * NO PERSONAL ATTACKS I MEAN IT. --BRANDON DILBECK 03:36, 6 FEBRUARY 2007 (UTC)
 * ANYBODY WANT A PEANUT - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * OH ME! ME ME! - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 03:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * BANANAS RULE!!! -- The Raven's Apprentice ( Profile 16:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * NO YOU!!! ;.; - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 05:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

All right, looks like AMIB and Erik have been displaced. Bhamv 10:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * They're back. I put Phadkay at the bottom and added a note to the list saying "put your names at the bottom". Cheers, The Raven's Apprentice ( Profile 16:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I turned it into an HTML comment. I didn't want a casual visitor to see your strict notice and think we're having problems here.  --Brandon Dilbeck 17:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Ooh la la, people! Is my political analogy not accurate as indicated by the sorts of messages AMIB gets on his talk pages nowadays? Ding dong!


 * Ok. I guess the moral of this thread is that thanks to the efforts of Tetsuya, the giant participants list has always been chronologically accurate. But if anyone thinks it's going to become too long, maybe there should be another "Roll Call" thread like AMIB did last year? I noticed it's because he brought it up himself back then that he was entered as participant number one. Maybe I should start a roll call too, to get me in position number one... AND ASSUME MY RIGHTFUL THRONE AS ARSEUS-CLASS POKE-GRANDMASTER WIKIPEDIAN SUPREME!!! Erik Jensen (Appreciate 20:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think having a roll call would be appropriate, considering that it's possible that people in this project don't necessarily watch this page. Unless we posted messages on the talk pages of everyone in the list, we'll be removing people who may do important work in this project. On the other hand, I WANT TO BE HIGH UP IN THE LIST TOO and am wondering if we should perhaps have some kind of list of unelected "officers"&mdash;a list of members who are somewhat more involved in this project. If anything, it might serve a purpose for people outside of the project who want to find appropriate people to contact about the PCP (instead of users like who are high in the list but haven't made any relevant edits in a long time). (Actually, it looks like GangstaEB left Wikipedia last August with a few edits since then.) --Brandon Dilbeck 20:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed: My roll call business was just part of my joking around. I don't think there's really all that much meaning to however the participants list is ordered anyway. All you gotta do to be more known by the project than other members above your list position is to do more PCP-related work. Erik Jensen (Appreciate 21:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I find it very cool that I'm #5. I remember signing up for this project way back in July 2005 or so...not sure when I exactly signed my name, though. Hbdragon88 23:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * this has got to be one of the more entertaining threads... that and raven's links to poke-related "quotes of the day" -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 02:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

NO NUMBERS, PLEASE!
Just a reminder, PLEASE DO NOT refer to episodes as “Episode #[number], [title]”. JAPANESE AND ENGLISH EPISODE NUMBERS ARE DIFFERENT and the numbers you get from the Serebii plot summaries are Japanese. The same goes for manga chapters from Volumes 4-7, which had a restarted numbering system in English and a chapter split into two. Just refer to episodes and chapters by their English names if they have them( for the English manga chapter names, see that list I did a while back), Japanese names if they don’t, and if a number is ABSOLUTELY necessary, seek out the English number in Serebii’s episode list( or the chapter list I mentioned). --WikidSmaht (talk) 18:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC) & 13:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * while i admit that i've occasionally put in the Japanese number in error, i'm of the opinion that numbers for the episodes are better for giving full sourcing information. Of course the alternative is to use ref tags... i just wish there was a way to get labels to work within tables so we could just redirect all the pokemon episodes to the right location on the episode list pages.... oh well -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 02:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Help?
Ok, I've made it my current mission to clean up all the city articles - I don't like them, and I wish there was a way to easily make them go away, but for now I'll just try to make them less...bad. I'm mostly trimming, and adding bits and pieces to the video game parts if need be, but I don't know nearly enough about the anime to deal with those sections properly (and some of them need it badly - see Pewter City :P). So if anyone wants to help clean up the anime info (which I think is the most important part of those articles, since there's usually more anime info than game info), I'd greatly appreciate it. ~e.o.t.d~ 05:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, I proposed a merge of Pokémon Radio Tower into Celadon City. Snce all theinformation in the former already exists in the latter, and because the tower isn't even remotely notable by itself, I doubt any of you will disagree. But i you do, please discuss it, either here or there. ~e.o.t.d~ 06:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Just do it. I've been merging crap for the past few weeks now - i.e. Petalburg Woods into the City, Lavander Tower into Lavander Town, Jagged Pass and Mount Chimeny into Lavaridge Town, etc.  I've also been removing specific game guide matieral (such as the location of the Move Deleter in Fuschia/Lilycove, the lists of merchandise that the Lilycove store has, etc.) You can also help by deploying Infobox Pokémon City to replace those clunky wikitables.  I really can't help with anime, as it was horrible and I didn't watch anything past the Indigo Plateau arc. Hbdragon88 07:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Is there any reason that a little dash (-) appears above the first paragraph when using the infobox? ~e.o.t.d~ 08:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Strange issue that I tried to fix in editing Ever Grande City but was not successful in. Can somebody with more knowledge in Parser functions help me out here? Hbdragon88 08:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I made an edit to the template that I think fixed the problem. Two of the pipes in the table markup were inside if functions and saying to put the dashes if the parameters didn't exist (something like that). I think it also fixed the problems with Gym Leader and Region not displaying.—M_C_Y_1008 (talk/contribs) 22:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, the Gym Leader doesn't get displayed. ~e.o.t.d~ 08:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Is Region being displayed? I played with Lavender Town and it didn't turn up with it. And odd, parser functions don't seem to appear wrong. Something fishy's afoot. - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 08:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope, no regions either...~e.o.t.d~ 08:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Why was the redirect deleted? I thought merge procedure usually leaves it? --WikidSmaht (talk) 15:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry about that, I entirely forgot (not to mention I'm more or less new at merging, etc.) If someone else could stick that in, I'd appreciate it, as I don't really have the time now. ~e.o.t.d~ 17:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, it’s not that simple. Anyone can create a new redirect, but generally the old page is redirected, not deleted in the first place. This is to leave the edit history intact, allowing users to browse the pre-merge genesis of the information. --WikidSmaht (talk) 19:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I sure screwed up...if it's any consolation, the history wasn't all that long...
 * Thanks for letting me know about that, though...I'll definitely be more careful in the future. ~e.o.t.d~ 19:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know about that, though...I'll definitely be more careful in the future. ~e.o.t.d~ 19:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

ACID winner
It looks like Pokémon has the attention of the Article Creation and Improvement Drive through the 14th. This could come as a big boon to the article&mdash;look what ACID brought Death:. --Brandon Dilbeck 01:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That should help us with our miscellaneous article drive, surely! Cheers to the news, from T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 05:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I seriously can't believe that they actually picked that acronym...hahaha. "Congratulations, ACID winner!" Hbdragon88 05:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, so they destroy articles with acid rather than help them... big deal. :P - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 07:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I prefer Sludge Bomb any day of the week, with 50 more power and a much better 30% chance of poison instead of a mere 10% of lowering defense. Hbdragon88 07:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Causing poison is the booby prize of special effects. It only cancels out lefties, and if you accidentally poison something with Guts, welcome to sweeper hell. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 09:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * (cough)Toxic! Bhamv 10:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Which is why I don't poison someone like Swellow. Looking at Smogon, I'll add Ursaring, Heracross, Machamp, Hariyama, and Raticate to that list .  LOL.  I hope that I wouldn't be dumb enough to try to poison Heracross - its Psychic-type resists Poison. Hbdragon88 22:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Posion debates, lol. We're all a bunch of Pokénerds. But, yey. My vote ACTUALLY made a diffrence! Finally, Pokémon might have a chance. Jerichi ~Profile~Talk~ 23:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Everyone's votes weighed equally (unless someone voted twice). And Heracross ain't Psychic.  --Brandon Dilbeck 23:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * EH, pwned again. Struck out. Hbdragon88 23:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

An article that needs a lot of love
I just looked over the Pokémon (video games) article, and wow, does it need help. Considering that it's supposed to be the page for all general information about the games (with only brief synopses on the main Pokémon page), it should probably be getting a lot more attention than it is. The main series games' sections should probably be fleshed out a bit, and the significant "spinoffs" (Colosseum, XD, Ranger, etc.) need at least a basic overview - right now, they're just treated as an after thought. The "Unobtainable Pokémon" and "Glitch" sections are a bit long, and way too instructional. Maybe we should stop focusing on the main page for a bit and clean this one up instead. 蜻蛉の目e.o.t.d 00:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You might want to suggest it as a future focus article above. Also, I don't think the "fake code" section is encyclopedic and have shortened it.  T ennis  Dy N ami T e  (sign here) 03:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Did a rewrite of the DS-era section, but it's not complete, so I'd prefer it if someone could finish it, as I'm out of time. Blue Mirage | Comment 21:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

"Pokémon trainer" and "Gym Leader"
Right now, I'm copyediting the Pokémon (video games) article and just came across something that I've noticed in the past. I've noticed variations on the capitalization of "Pokémon trainer" and "gym leader". I have no idea what way it should be, but it's something we should probably be consistent on. --Brandon Dilbeck 22:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that's tricky...I'd suggest checking the text of one of the games, that's probably the only way to be sure. 蜻蛉の目e.o.t.d 23:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Considering the releases outside of Japan CAPITALISE every proper noun, it'd be hard to tell, really. :x - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 23:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Aren't all proper nouns capitalized? Anyways, if they're capitalized in the game, then we should probably stick to that. ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 00:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * So yeah, I was dense enough to miss your meaning the first time. :)
 * I'm pretty sure that the latest versions (FR/LG/E) would have them in plain text somewhere - I just recently restarted LG, and I'm sure I saw them. ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 00:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I just checked some profiles in my Emerald version's Match Call. The terms "GYM LEADER" and "TRAINER" were used.
 * I also looked at my Emerald guide (the official Nintendo Power one), which uses "Trainer" and "Gym Leader".—M_C_Y_1008 (talk/contribs) 00:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The Manaphy Egg recruitment letter in Ranger says "Trainer". ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 02:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Except, unlike “Pokémon”, “trainer” and “gym leader” are NOT proper nouns, they are just nouns. You don’t capitalize “Chef” or “Receptionist” in conversation, do you? That’s why I had the Pokémon Trainer article moved to begin with. Nintendo can decide what kind of words their made-up creature names are, but the other words already existed. --WikidSmaht (talk) 17:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I still think that we should go with the games on this, though, if we can. Yes, the words already existed, but Pokémon puts them in a context different from their every day use. Take, for example, the names of Pokémon types: the words "fire", "water", "grass", etc. existed well before Pokémon, but they're generally capitalized in the game when referred to as types. It happens all the time in fiction: when a previously existing term is used to describe something new, capitalization often helps distinguish the terms and make the text easier to understand. ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 19:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I also just checked the Pokémon trainer talk page, and noticed that you were the only person to comment in the debate. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but we might try another one, a bit higher-profile, to get some more opinions on the subject. ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 19:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, the included instruction booklets for all the 3rd Generation games (I checked Sapphire's, Emerald's and LeafGreen's, and I doubt Ruby or FireRed differ) use not only "Pokémon Trainer" and "Gym Leader", but also the shortened forms "Trainer" and "Leader" - all of them capitalized. These booklets are cited as sources in many different articles here, and I'm definitely inclined to go with their capitalization conventions. I'm going to move the page over to Pokémon Trainer sometime around 20:00 UTC, because it's extremely late where I am, and I don't have the time now to fix links and change instances of "trainer" within the articles. ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 11:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The page has been moved. I also found a new piece of evidence to support this move: while the official Nintendo game guides for Red, Blue and Yellow versions use "trainer", they have used "Trainer" from the Gold and Silver versions to the present. ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 02:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Evil Milotic
could one of our nice admins dlete this pls? -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 19:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Want to hear something funny? I just met someone named Don Phan.  I asked if he had heard of the Pokémon, but he hadn't.  --Brandon Dilbeck 19:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Image categories
For those of you who never have seen Category:Pokémon images, we've had approx. 1000+ images tagged with pokeimage. This makes categorization superfluous because it's not useful in any way. This is similar to the large number of photos that get added to Category:Nintendo screenshots (Nintendo-screenshot, Category:Screenshots of computer and video games game-screenshot, and Category:Screenshots of television Tv-screenshot. In order to not only organize ourselves, but also help these associated categories, i've created new subcats to hopefully replace all instances of Pokeimage or at least prune downn the parent category to a usable size, and also remove them from the ambiguity of their related categories (e.g. PokeGame-screenshot belongs to both Category:Nintendo screenshots and Category:Pokémon images so we only need one tag and the image is adequately categorized without adding to the bulk of either). -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 18:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

would ne1 object to me labelling pokeimage as deprecated in favor of the newer more specific tags? -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 17:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Toy Fair chaos
OK, be prepared, Toy Fair has begun in New York, and the Pokémon Center is present, as well as Jakks Pacific with their 4th-gen Pokémon toys. We are talking about a LOT of new names in a short time span. Keep an eye out for a report on Pokémon at Toy Fair from a RELIABLE source. While the Jakks names may not be final( think 4Kids & Snubble), I believe they are a good enough source to finally allow the changes. Agreement? Disagreement? This also means that admins( you listening, AMIB?) should be prepared to delete the redirects and allow the moves of Buizel, Mantyke, and Electivire, once a reliable report surfaces. --WikidSmaht (talk) 19:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree. Although this strangely isn't a dam-breaking of anon edits like Chatot and Elekible were, something like this seems a lot more reliable. Besides, I doubt these could be beta names what with the games coming out in two months or so.—ウルタプ 19:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I read about this on Serebii, and I was like "Uh-oh. We're not gonna be having fun on Wikipedia for a while." It seems to be better than I feared though. Let's hope it stays this way. But I don't see why we can't trust them. I mean, Jakks Pacific doesn't name these things. The Pokémon Company coordinates all of this, IIRC. And anything from NYPC is almost DEFINENTLY official. However, its in our best interest to hold off on any changes beyond these few for the time being. Press releases or something equivalent is what we really need. We might as well change Buizel, Electivire, and Mantyke, though, but we should be prepared to have to undo or change something if need be. So, agreed. Jerichi ~Profile~Talk~ 22:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Also agreed; any names released through toys, etc. are most likely going to be official, and if they aren't - well, it only takes a quick revert to fix. ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 02:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Um. Guys? Sources? It looks like we're just using Serebii again, when other fansites are reporting differing things. For example, some of the Japanese names seem to be being used as placeholders, and reports differ on some of the names (for example, Pokebeach is reporting that Pochama's name may actually be changing). It's the 4th-gen stubs all over again. :/ - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

While I'll take some of this as reliable, Serebii.net still doesn't work. A source of a person who visited and clearly has photos of the event, maybe? All we know is that Serebii is being fed this information (he himself couldn't be there unless he simply flew to that silly Toy Fair), so reliability of names might be something. - T e tsuya-san (talk : contribs) 07:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * How about some reliable publications? It's not like Toy Fair doesn't get mainstream press coverage. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I did a Google search and pulled up the Toy Fair's website. I've found a directory for the exhibitors, but I can not find Jakks Pacific, Pokémon Company, or Nintendo even. But, I do have to agree with AMIB. Unless someone can find pictures or something of these toys, or there is some sort of press release, I guess its in our best interest to hold off for now. (Although, if it is changed and wrong, then we can simply revert it. On the other hand, we're proving critics of Wikipedia correct, which would be a nice thing to avoid as much as possible.) Serebii HAS been wrong it the past, but they're usually right. I trust AMIB's judgment enough, though, to hold off. Jerichi ~Profile~Talk~ 12:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Really? I found a directory on Google as well. There's something there along the lines of "POKEMON USA, INC."—ウルタプ 14:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't. But, whatever. I was looking to see if they had some sort of product list for the exhibitors, but it seems to be a dead end. Oh well. I guess all we can do for the moment is wait. Jerichi ~Profile~Talk~ 16:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Oy! Yeah, Serebii, NO! As I said before, I think Jakks is a reliable source, but I was hoping for a RELIABLE Toy Fair report to let us know what Jakks is really saying. When you began changing it all I thought you’d found one... Guess I should have been back here sooner. --WikidSmaht (talk) 17:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * well you knew it would happen... serebii has released what they think the names are going to be. You know, the nice thing about this is that we can use their archived news pages as sources for entymology (e.g. "According to the popular fansite, serebii.net, Mantyke's name could be a combination of Manta ray, the animal it is modelled after, and the word tyke which refers to a child.) At least then poeple couldn't come around saying we're just pulling these entymologies out of our a**es. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 03:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * prolly best to keep an eye on jakks official site. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 03:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Or, better yet, nintendo.com or pokemon.com, as Jakks seems to have no mention of Pokémon on its site anywhere thet I can find. I doubt that the initial online confirmation of names will take place on Jakks' site; seems to me any names will probably appear there only after they've been "revealed" on one of the Nintendo-run sites. ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 04:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Article for deletion
Penguin pokemon. It seems to simply be a useless copy-paste of Pochama's article.—ウルタプ 20:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * What the hell is that? .-. Did you list it for deletion?-Sukecchi 22:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I'm asking you guys o.o; I don't know the proper channels.—ウルタプ 22:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You’ve been on Wikipedia how long? You should learn to do this. Check out Articles for Deletion and Criteria for speedy deletion to get you started. This seems speedyable as a test page to me. --WikidSmaht (talk) 17:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * and now it's a redirect... sometimes a better choice... prevents recreation :) -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 02:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

No rationale categy
while working on reorganizing the images, i noticed several have been lacking Fair-use rationales, and so have tagged them with PokeImageNR which places them in a new subcat of Pokémon images, Category:Pokémon images without a Fair-use rationale (verbose, i know... but it's specific). Since i was using AWB to tag these it wasn't really easy to check and see what articles might have been using the images so i was hoping some people could help to clear out this category by either providing rationales (pokefair is our, debated, standard - however not appropriate for anime/film screenshots as it makes reference to the game inaccurately) or deleting superfluous images. Many of these images also have no sources, but i might go back through all the images at once becuase it would be pretty easy to filter out those with no sources and tag them with another new template (anime/film screenshots are something i could more than likely take care of w/out having to tag ahead of time as they'd all just be sourced from serebii). Anyone against me creating another tag? -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 02:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Time for a new archive?
The page is only 129 KB long, after all. :) I think we're overdue for another archival of old discussions. ~e.o.t.d~ (蜻蛉の目•話す•貢献) 08:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Unown (1-9)
I just thought I'd point out 's contributions to Wikipedia, inventing new Pokémon and listing them in a category for 5th-generation Pokémon. --Brandon Dilbeck 19:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I would take the time to find speedy delete tags for the article and category, but I need to catch a bus now. --Brandon Dilbeck 19:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)