Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poker/Archive 9

Pius Heinz and 2011 WSOP Main Event Champion
I've nominated this for ITN. Please do not go over there and flood the ITN section with "supports" as that would be perceived as puppetry. But the first comment we've gotten back is that the Pius Heinz article needs to be expanded. I can't do that right now, so if somebody else could work on that it would be great.--- Balloonman  Poppa Balloon 15:50, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

ITN ban proposal
One person wants to ban poker from ITN as a result of the above proposal. While I do not want people to go to the ITN discussion for today, I feel that it is only proper to notify the project of this proposal. Wikipedia_talk:In_the_news/Recurring_items--- Balloonman  Poppa Balloon 18:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Doug Lee
Just as a headsup, I've put a prod-nn on Doug Lee (poker player) Paleking (talk) 17:27, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No argument from me... one semi-notable finish---first place in a WSOP Circuit Event. Doesn't make him notable.  But thanks for the heads up.--- Balloonman  Poppa Balloon 17:31, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

World Series of Poker Africa
I just created an article for the World Series of Poker Africa--- Balloonman  Poppa Balloon 03:52, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at VPP
I started up a discussion at Village pump (policy) about a clause in WP:SIZE which seemed to imply one could set up non notable article as splits of larger topics. A particular example was brought up there of one of the World poker series finals which had no obvious notability and yet was in Wikipedia. Would anyone here care to go there and defend for instance why 1998 World Series of Poker is in Wikipedia, does it have individual WP:Notability and if not why should it be kept? Dmcq (talk) 08:35, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I am fascinated by your view on which conversation goes where. To me it seems the question of whether any of the contents of Template:Major poker tournaments should be kept is a question for this page, as many of them fall in the same boat, while the generic "central issue of notability of the split off articles which is the discussion at VPP" does not relate directly to any questions of initiating specific AFDs. WikiProject, is there any WP:SNG here perhaps? JJB 14:20, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * There were notability guidelines, about people, but it was moved to some obscure place for some unknown reason. 2005 (talk) 18:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Project members, the above referenced thread reaches epic proportions on the wikinonsense scale, with the idea being presented that all WSOP articles except the main one should be deleted because they are not notable. I'm afraid my tolerance of this junk is at an end, but it would be nice if some project members would sacrifice some brain cells to comment in that thread before anyone starts to make a mess of the articles. 2005 (talk) 18:12, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, "epic proportions on the wikinonsense scale" is an excellent characterization, but I make it for different reasons. IMHO sending one article or a large number to AFD would be greatly precipitous when the WikiProject has not been consulted, sorry if it sounded any different. What we need, though, is the project's generic answer to "why is 1998 WSOP notable?" Just a link and a description of the general local approach, or two, is sufficient for me. JJB 18:50, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Why is the 1998 Super Bowl and football season notable? Thousands of online mentions make it so.  More to the point though, now that the Internet age exists, coverage of all the post 2001 WSOP's is overwhelming.  The Project, including large numbers of editors, have taken the time to break down every year individually, with results from the dozens of events, which make these articles hubs for the scores of player articles that refer to the events of that year.  It would be ridiculous, and lead to hundreds of content forks, to have to repeat the same information over and over and over in each player article instead of have a hub article that summarizes all the resuts in the same place.  Similarly it would be ridiculous, and counter to Wiki guidelines, to make on enourmously long article listing all the winners and information, instead of sensibly breaking it down by each individual year.  And I really can't believe that isn't self evident to everyone. And saying the 1988 WSOP isn't notable but the 2007 one is because coverage of the former was in print and coverage of the latter is online, really is too strange to deal with.  2005 (talk) 19:05, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

OK great, thank you, so the argument is "print sources exist". Objectors should slap Template:Refimprove on them rather than AFD. Sounds fine to me. JJB 21:07, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That is perfectly reasonable. 2005 (talk) 17:35, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Hands
I know that details of specific hands can be shown using the tag. Is there any way to get these to show as a four-color deck? (Four-color decks show spades black, hearts red, diamonds blue, and clubs green.) 20:13, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, but you have to register an account with a user name then you can a add the 4 color user script, Once you have an account click on the Special:MyPage/common.css link and copy & paste all of the code (in the dotted box below) into the newly open common.css page then click [save] You will now see cards using the four-color deck on pages that use the 'cards' template.▪◦▪ ≡S i R E X≡  Talk 01:24, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Template for playing cards, will automatically color the suits with the standard red/black. To see a typical 4-color deck, copy the following into your user style sheet (Special:MyPage/common.css for the common CSS):

The David Bakers
What should I say in the hatnotes to disambiguate David Baker (poker player, born 1986) from David Baker (poker player, born 1972) now that the latter has won a World Series of Poker bracelet too.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:05, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the "Not to be confused with " hatnote would be best as that is the issue at hand, the details about their accomplishments and the confusions between the two David Baker's you seem to have covered well in both articles. btw is either Baker's middle name/ initial known? that could also do the trick.▪◦▪ ≡S i R E X≡  Talk 13:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Nevermind It looks like someone else just did just that.▪◦▪ ≡S i R E X≡  Talk 13:11, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Nevermind It looks like someone else just did just that.▪◦▪ ≡S i R E X≡  Talk 13:11, 23 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Does anyone know how to get us pictures of these guys. The reader is going to be confused somewhat no matter what else we do.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:59, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Freeuse pictures of poker players are hard to come by nowadays, lasvegasvegas.com offer photos via a Creative Commons license but there hasn't been many new photos in a couple years, I believe their photographer flipchip is now working for pokernews.com▪◦▪ ≡S i R E X≡  Talk 23:36, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

WSOP vs. WSOPE bracelets
Does anyone else think listing "WSOPE" takes up too much space in the bracelet table on player's pages? To me, it creates too much empty space in non-WSOPE years. Maybe list just a capital "E" next to the year or putting it in parenthesis? For example, I think this:

Looks visually more appealing than this:

I'd be more than willing to make the changes myself, possibly including a note to explain it, but want to get others' opinions. 67.181.76.194 (talk) 05:35, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with you, It's a good idea.▪◦▪ ≡S i R E X≡  Talk 23:24, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Your suggestion seems fine to me. 2005 (talk) 19:19, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It'd been something that was nagging in my mind, too. I'm for it, also :) JaeDyWolf ~ Baka-San (talk) 20:06, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Opinions about the notability of Allen Kessler
A few days ago a request at WT:AFCP to create an article about Allen Kessler at Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Allen_Kessler was made. Kessler has three runner-ups at the WSOP with over 2.5 million in earnings with media coverage to his name at pokerworks, his WTP profile a PokerNews profile with video interviews & a CardPlayer article the problem is two fold, it been reviewed twice and declined both times and there is a ridiculous forum thread about the AFCP that is being discussed which includes by the subject of the article.▪◦▪ ≡S i R E X≡  Talk 22:43, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * He has the reliable source coverage to be notable, so as long as an article includes those sources, it would be fine. There is no criteria that a poker player needs to win anything to be notable. 2005 (talk) 20:08, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. He passes WP:GNG--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:58, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Heads-up Final tables
Does a top 8 finish in a large heads up tournament count as a final table?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:37, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Good question... The literal "final" table is two people, so I'd have to say no, but I could see why yes would make sense. Does the WSOP count such a finish as a final table?  Do they count final tables at all?  2005 (talk) 20:17, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * For the 20 or so players that I try to keep up to date, I added a WSOP results table like the one at Vanessa_Rousso, which is easier to keep updated than prose describing each year's results. She is one of two that have no final tables, but she does have a 5th place in a 256 person headsup event.  I have no idea if there is a such thing as a final table statistic and how headsup tournaments are counted. Note that 2010_World_Series_of_Poker_results shows this 5th place finish as a final table.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:50, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No, for the same reason an 8th place finish in a 6-max isn't a final table either. using SF & QF is good enough in the text of the article people will know what it means if put in context.▪◦▪ ≡S i R E X≡  Talk 02:21, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm quite sure the WSOP does, in fact, have a final table statistic and that they don't count anything third or lower in a heads-up tournament as a final table. The HendonMob certainly does keep such a statistic and doesn't count such a finish as one, either. JaeDyWolf ~ Baka-San (talk) 02:46, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Highest ITM Main Event finish v. Highest Main Event finish
I'd like to propose that the infobox be altered to remove the "Highest ITM Main Event finish" line and be replaced with the "Highest Main Event finish," or at the very least include both lines. My reasoning is based on the fact that, if the infobox is to provide a summary of information/facts, then there can be confusion as to how well players have actually performed in the Main Event. For example, Gabe Kaplan's box has his highest in the money finish as 13th in 1991, which may lead some to believe that is the best he has finished. However, in 1980 Kaplan made the actual final table of the Main Event, finishing 6th, he just did not receive a payout. The way the template is designed now can be misleading in that regard and biased against certain players from the early years of the World Series, such as five-time bracelet winner Gary Berland, who is listed with highest ITM finish of 3rd in 1986, despite being runner-up in 1977; three-time bracelet winner Chip Reese, listed as 23rd in 1989 yet with a 6th place finish in 1979; and Jimmy Casella, who is list with no ITM finishes despite a final table appearance in 1972. It also removes a second place finish from Crandall Addington from being listed (finished 2nd in 1974 and 1978, yet only '78 is listed because in '74 the format was still winner take all). Thoughts? HidyHoTim (talk) 19:15, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What you want is impossible. No considtent records were kept for years regarding people who finished out of the money, and  records are still not available.  Who finished 3027the this year?  Does that person have a Wiki article?  Who finished 98th in 2000?  Does that person have a Wiki article?  In the money finishes are the only thing we can track fairly accurately. 2005 (talk) 19:41, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with 2005, 1980 WSOP Main Event happens to be the last time that a final tablist didn't cash due the smaller fields, in fact at the 1971 WSOP the players made the FT just by buying in, there were only 6 players, the Kaplan example should be something that should mention in the body of the article in context to the field size at the time, to put out of money results in the infobox alone is misleading in and of itself.▪◦▪ ≡S i R E X≡  Talk 20:41, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreeing with 2005 and Sirex98, I'm afraid. Personally, I find the current measure of highest ITM finish to be hideously biased in favour of early players, but that's largely just a nuance of my own head. JaeDyWolf ~ Baka-San (talk) 22:50, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think highest ITM finish should also indicate field size. 5/6000, YYYY is very different than 5/50, YYYY.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:21, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Blind (poker)
This has sat unsourced since pretty much since inception. Is there enough here for an actual article or should it be simply redirected to Betting_(poker).--Hu12 (talk) 19:14, 8 November 2012 (UTC)