Wikipedia talk:WikiProject RISC OS/Archive 1

Historical discussion from era of project creation
The contents of this section can be archived in the future. Relevant content can either be incorporated here on this talk page, or on the project page itself, as appropriate. --trevj (talk) 01:36, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Being done. -- Trevj (talk) 04:51, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Existing RISC OS introduction and information
We obviously already have riscos.info, ROOL and other resources, which are great for people already within (or at least aware of) the RISC OS community. But where do newcomers go for initial information about RISC OS? I expect that most computer literate people use Wikipedia and/or a search engine.--trevj (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia entries
There are numerous (and continuing) contributions to articles within Category:Acorn Computers. However, the Acorn/RISC OS community does not seem to share the same cohesion on Wikipedia that the Amiga community benefits from, cf. WikiProject Amiga. Could we have a similar project for Acorn/RISC OS? Some initial research on the newsgroups (1, 2, 3) and here on Wikipedia itself indicates that such a project hasn't been previously mooted. I'm therefore considering proposing this project.--trevj (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea. Just keeping things up to date is a starting point. --Theo Markettos Dec 14, 12:08 pm
 * Yes, but the people with the accurate info are often also the people with the most demands on their time! --trevj (talk) 15:50, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S. Please comment on this page if you can, rather than on c.s.a.misc!
 * Somewhere gives stats for Wikipedia: I noticed that the RISC_OS page got about 5000 hits a day. How many of these are automated I don't know (more obscure pages get a few hundreds), but obviously it's getting a fair amount of readership. --Theo Markettos Dec 14, 12:08 pm
 * Hadn't thought of that. Perhaps you're thinking of this visualiser of gathered access statistics at stats.grok.se. --trevj (talk) 15:55, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just stumbled upon this RISC OS on Wikipedia thread on TIB. As it only previously lived for <24 hours, I guess I may as well resurrect it, so will add a circular link back here! --trevj (talk) 13:55, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Knowing the current quality of the acorn and risc os pages on wikipedia and my own efforts to track down additional references, if you don't add references for anything you add I will personally delete it. I don't think I can live with any more rampant fanboy crap on those pages. --flibble 15:42, 31/12/2010
 * No problem. I see you've got a few (unused) references ready! And I'll include others as I find them. Thanks. --trevj (talk) 18:30, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If you read Wikipedia the article about the 'Archimedes range' you can read this : 'In 1992, a new range was produced, using the ARM250 microprocessor, an ARM2 processor with integrated memory and video controllers' Unfortunately it's wrong : the ARM250 is not made with an ARM2 but with an ARM3 with no cache memory ... It's correctly detailed here, in the 'ARM3' section : http://www.cs.umd.edu/class/fall2001/cmsc411/proj01/arm/armchip.html As I don't know how to add/modify anything on Wikipedia if a good soul can do it, thanks ... --Enzo 17:53, 2/1/2011
 * If you can post on a forum, you can edit on Wikipedia. moss 20:04, 2/1/2011
 * Thanks, Xavier. Please feel free to read about Wiki markup and harmlessly experiment in the Sandbox, as suggested under Next steps. And when we have pages agreeable to all (with references) then it'd be great if you're please able to assist with French pages, e.g., ! --trevj (talk) 23:11, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

For adding/editing references, use of a citation generator will save a lot of time. --trevj (talk) 13:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It might also be worth considering the use of WebCite to address link rot. --trevj (talk) 15:10, 8 February 2011 (UTC) Also, these tools are worth noting, for possible inclusion within the Guidelines. --trevj (talk) 16:01, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

What is a WikiProject and how is one established?
This introduction should explain things. A number of things should be done before a new project is established. With reference to the guidance, I have so far:
 * checked for existing proposals
 * checked for Inactive WikiProjects
 * identified a suitable parent project, i.e. Science, technology, and engineering -> Computing

I've not found any such existing projects. Therefore (unless anyone else finds any that I've missed) the next step is to propose a new WikiProject.--trevj (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There's also a current proposal regarding Restarting the computing collaboration. I've nominated the RISC OS article on the WP:COMP/C page, where you can add your name if you have the time/inclination to help.--trevj (talk) 07:21, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Not sure about that. Apart from your ultimate goal of raising the public profile of RISC OS, what do you want to do specifically? I'm not familiar with the Amiga community or their Wikipedia coverage, so can't compare. I could imagine reading an in depth analysis of the legal implications of selling beagle boxes with a pre-installed version of RO5 but that doesn't make it relevant for the rest of the world. OTOH I would agree that the main entry for RISC OS is terrible. --patric Dec 17, 12:14 pm
 * Thanks for your comments. What do I want to do? Basically, improve the information available - as you say, the main RISC OS entry could do with some changes. Regarding the Amiga community, I now see that in fact little recent work has been done - but perhaps that's because they've now achieved their goals. As for the legal implications of selling RISC OS kit, I don't think a Wikipedia article is the place for such speculation, although it should make reference to the owners, of course. While I've previously added the odd Acorn/RISC OS point here and there, it may be fruitless for me to rewrite the entire article, only to later read complaints about it. (Hmmm, I may almost be beginning to empathise with open source software developers here - except in the case of documentation, the learning curve is incomparable, i.e. almost anyone can contribute directly to Wikipedia.) So then, I guess I'll wait a few weeks and then see how much time I can find to have a go at starting things. (A first step may be the creation of History of RISC OS, allowing the main article to focus on functionality, strengths, limitations, etc.) I've also requested Stephen Streater's comments on here, as he's unlikely to be following the c.s.a.* newsgroups. I could also go through the process of directly contacting a few others who've made contributions - I'll see. The most likely scenario is that unless a few people come forward to discuss things/help out, I'll make a start and then make a further announcement for people to pull apart what I write! (I appreciate that not everyone reads the newsgroups, so will also contact the remaining RISC OS press.) --trevj (talk) 08:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
 * State only facts, reference everything, avoid opinion and guesswork, avoid advertising, avoid promotion. Wikipedia isn't a place to raise the profile of anything. The Acorn and RISC OS articles have, for years, suffered from people trying to use them as a springboard of 'You should use RISC OS, it's really great' and 'Acorn was especially important/relevant to the history of computing', bin that and maybe this wikiproject has a future.--Flibble (talk) 15:57, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * For the record, the "ultimate goal of raising the public profile" is what was inferred and is certainly neither what I stated nor what I intend. I completely agree that the articles should present "accurate and unbiased" information. --trevj (talk) 23:49, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I should add that outside Wikipedia I do feel that it would be beneficial to the RISC OS community if the profile were to be raised. The question then arises as to whether this a conflict of interest. Potentially, yes it could be. Despite this, I aim to make my edits neutral and am here to build an encyclopedia. Like many users, I have niche interests, but it should be noted that I do contribute to a variety of articles. I hope that this is clear and understood. Thanks. --trevj (talk) 09:45, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

In the mean time
Doing a bit of active house-keeping etc. is great stuff. Perhaps we could also look at bots to reformulate references. Article assessment will also be useful in order to learn from others. Please, if you're reading this and haven't already joined in, you could be bold and do so! Thanks. --trevj (talk) 15:07, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Scope
Identify the best scope

IMHO RISC OS and 8-bit Acorn should be separate projects, although in some cases it may be appropriate for pages to be categorised under both projects. Others may have different views, and further discussion of the scope of such a project will naturally progress from this point.--trevj (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As the vast majority of RISC OS users are native English speakers, and I believe the English Wikipedia to have longer articles (and more of them), then naturally the English articles will be the initial focus. But with collaboration by speakers of other languages, it may be possible to migrate the project to other Wikipedias. Note that reverse migration will also be worth considering, e.g. the table on the RISC OS article in German. --trevj (talk) 16:14, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Structure
Identify the best structure

The Task force structure seems to the the most appropriate for us. "The fastest way to start a task force is to join the parent WikiProject(s)", i.e. WikiProject Computing/Members. Well, that bit's easy enough!--trevj (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Creating a WikiProject
Creating a WikiProject


 * The articles I'd listed for Assessment on the WikiProject Computing pages, have now been assessed, showing that a awful lot of work needs to be done. Would it be worthwhile getting a project page setup for the RISC OS project? so we can keep track of pages that we think are within its scope (and their ratings), keep a list of people that are interested in helping and maybe keep a list of sites that we think have useful references on?--Flibble (talk) 15:04, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm definitely up for doing that, and for helping out when I can. But when I looked into it, I understood that it would technically be a Task Force of WP:COMP, although it could be termed 'WikiProject RISC OS'. I've been trying to collect some potential references, and will also consult my (so far, saved from being recycled) printed Acorn press at my parents' house. Note that it's my opinion that RISC OS should be reassessed. --trevj (talk) 15:30, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I don't think the importance rating has any particular relevance for us, we're welcome to raise the quality of any article we like. And I suppose in the grand scheme of things RISC OS's importance in the world is somewhere between none and 'comedy value'.--Flibble (talk) 16:00, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Understood, but raising the article's importance may encourage more editor involvement from elsewhere, to give us guidance on principals/policies, etc. The Top label applies to Operating systems, languages, companies, important websites, or anything that forms the basis of all information, as you'll have read. Regarding the WikiProject, it's live! It's recommended to have 5-10 people for an effective task force. Although we're short of that, we can try to recruit outisde of Wikipedia. --trevj (talk) 16:37, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Having had a good look at the assessment template, individual task forces can add their own importance rating to articles to allow them to keep track of it internally. E.g RISC OS maybe Mid within Project Computing and Top within Project RISC OS.--Flibble (talk) 16:50, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Next steps
Please here discuss on this page. Please share the word about this project.--trevj (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Note: If you're unfamiliar with wikis, it's probably worth visiting the Sandbox first! Thanks. --trevj (talk) 21:21, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Also note the suggested format for indenting replies.--trevj (talk) 08:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Wiki markup is the language used for pages here on Wikipedia. The basics are fairly easy to get to grips with, although the finer intricacies of formatting require more consideration. But please don't let that put you off. Your help will still be useful, so share your opinions here if you're interested!--trevj (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Archiving Project talk
I've been having a little read about talk page archiving, for if and when we want to archive some old discussions here - e.g. The entire 'What is a WikiProject and how is one established?' section, which isn't of much relevance now the Project is set up. My thoughts: --trevj (talk) 14:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The 'Subpage archive method' seems appropriate, and a search box could also be included.
 * Using a bot might not be appropriate if it could result in sections being archived when they're still relevant: just because no comments have been posted for a specified period of time doesn't necessarily mean people won't want to easily refer to discussions in the future.
 * If we choose to do the archiving manually and want to retain some discussions, I guess that'd be "by topic". But do we still want the archives stored with numbered refs, rather than descriptive text?
 * Archiving of Article talk may not need considering for some time.

Project awareness
Obviously the project is still in its infancy. But all the same, I've posted this item at WP:YORKS. --trevj (talk) 14:30, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Recruitment
In connection with the Wakefield Show 2011, we can ask for a banner if WROCC will host the project on a table at their show. As it's only 2 months away, I'm going to contact the committee and then investigate the banner if OK. If we do have a stand there, I feel that it needn't necessarily be manned for the entire show. Thoughts? --trevj (talk) 16:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC) I've just resent the email from another account, as I've not heard anything back yet. --trevj (talk) 12:38, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm now in posession of the banner. It's one of these roll-up ones and is at no cost to us as it belongs to Wikimedia UK. It will be passed on to User:Steve virgin after the event but I'd hope to be able to borrow it again for future events, e.g. the RISC OS London Show. It's plain white and simply contains the unfinished globe logo. I'm preparing an additional 'WikiProject RISC OS' large paper printout, which it should be possible to temporarily fix to the top of the banner (or hang over the top) and possibly use one across the front of the table too. When I've done a little more on this, I'll email it to Flibble and anyone else who'd like to comment. --trevj (talk) 10:06, 25 March 2011 (UTC)


 * How big is it? If memory serves, you're heading up by train. I'm going up the day before by car - would it be useful if I took it off your hands and carried it up for you? What about anything else you have for the stand (eg flyers/leaflets)? VinceHudd (talk) 13:33, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much for the offer. It's small-ish, as it's designed to be portable - around 15cm x 15cm x 1m. It should be managable for me and may not easily fit in the boot of your car with your other kit. Having said that, I'll have a think and will let you know. As for flyers/leaflets, they're not yet done but that would certainly be helpful if they can be sorted soon enough... especially as the train's not due to arrive until shortly after the show start time. --trevj (talk) 20:04, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I bought something bigger last week, so space in the boot is no longer an issue. Another thing I can bring while I'm thinking about it is spare literature holders for you to use for any flyers etc. VinceHudd (talk) 22:42, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * In accordance with the Trademark Policy, I've prepared this draft leaflet. It's a simple single-sided effort, for 3x duplication on A4 paper. The logo's currently in colour, but I plan to print it b/w, and may therefore replace with a greyscale version to improve contrast. Comments welcome. --trevj (talk) 02:44, 1 April 2011 (UTC) A 40% black shading looks OK. I don't think I have the software to easily change the bitmap to greyscale, but selecting b/w at print time will sort that. Vince, if you have any lit holders to suit 100mm x 210mm, that'd be great. And if not, yes please any size would be useful to save them spilling onto the floor. --trevj (talk) 08:13, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I might still have some of that size, but I don't know at the moment. If I do, they'll be in the loft which I'll be rooting around in the weekend before the show (now I have a bigger vehicle, I might take the opportunity to see what other stuff I can bring up and get rid of). Otherwise, the ones I have on hand are all A4. Actually, I might have some A5 ones as well. I think I bought some last year and then abandoned the idea of A5 flyers. If I have (and can't find the thin ones), they'd be more suitable than A4. VinceHudd (talk) 12:35, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * See you tomorrow (/tonight?). If you have the lit holders, then great. If not, no worries. Anyway, we have 300 flyers ready to give out. The excessive number is to cater for people taking multiples for redistribution at user groups, etc. --trevj (talk) 13:25, 15 April 2011 (UTC)