Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Richard Wagner/Archive 4

Project scope
Currently the project page does not match the categorisation. I think we need a proper discussion on who we cover as part of the project. I'm going to seed sub-headings in the hope of keeping things organised.

Peformers
We are encouraging people to write articles on these. But who do we want to have under the project?

Do we want specific categories i.e Category:Wagnerian singers, conductors, directors etc.

I think we need to link criteria for encouraging articles from here with criteria for being under a category.


 * PS and also one for Wagnerian singers, I 100% agree.--Smerus 14:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * (I've refactored this, I hope you don't mind, Smerus)--Peter cohen 14:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm opposed to having a category for Wagnerian singers - or Mozart singers, Puccini singers or whatever - because it would be too difficult to define and maintain, and wouldn't be of any practical value IMO. (What I have done is work on a List of article-worthy Wagner singers.) -- Kleinzach 16:09, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * They are singers who you would expect to have a WP:Wagner tag on their talk page, then?--Peter cohen 16:52, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No, as explained above. Also consider the enormity of the task of categorizing Wagner singers. We should not be proposing and discussing something that nobody has any intention of doing. Please note that for similar reasons the Opera Project does not categorize conductors. -- Kleinzach 02:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Family members
See the heading Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Richard Wagner where discussion has already started.

Critics, advocates, influences etc.
User:Kleinzach has removed Ludwig II of Bavaria from our headings but we mention him on our front page. So do we want him or not? ditto for Schopenhauer as an influence, but then why not Beethoven or Carl Maria von Weber? Ernest Newman is currently included]], but not Deryck Cooke. Nietzsche is a prominent advocate and critic.
 * 1000 years ago I started Category:Wagnerites (and also Category:Anti-Wagnerites - Nietzsche was in both categories) which got deleted a while back for what I feel were specious reasons - but there is a case for some sort of category/categories which deals with - 1) people closely associated with Wagner's life, thought and career who were contemporaries (Ludwig, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche....)  and - 2) significant commentators on Wagner (e.g. Newman, Cooke). Smerus 14:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * AFAIR, a lot of the deleters said they would be happy if the pros and antis were in categories clearly identified as part of the 19th century debate.


 * As you said, Perhaps we need categories under this heading for:
 * Wagner associates and influences. (Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Bakunin, Ludwig, the Wesendoncks...)
 * Wagner writers (Shaw, Cooke, Newman, Nietzsche(again)...) This requires people to have written at least a book on RW or the equivalent number of essays, chapters or whatever. Twain is entertaining, but unless his work is book length, I don't think he counts.Hanslich might well have written enough.


 * Separately there might be a list of those influenced by Wagner, e.g. Bruckner, Thomas Mann etc.--Peter cohen 14:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we should be cautious - not build castles in the air. Categories for associates, followers and influences etc. are distracting from more important work like improving the basic articles on the Wagner operas. These categories seem to inevitably end up on Cfd provoking interminable, often inconclusive discussions. -- Kleinzach 16:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I started work on Peter cohen 09:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Please sign and indent!
Re-reading the comments above I find it impossible to work out who wrote what. Can we please sign comments and properly indent them so that it's all clear? Thank you. -- Kleinzach 01:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Time to agree scope
Now Kleinzach has "signed off" the assessment trial, it is definitely time for those of us who are here for the long term to decide what the scope of the project is.

As far as I am concerned there is an issue in that on our project page we mention Arthur Schopenhauer, Friedrich Nietzsche, Ludwig II of Bavaria, and Franz Liszt but do not include them in any of our categories and have not assessed them. SImilarly there are a large number of singers listed, but we have no category or list or assessment of Wagnerian singers. And there aralso conductors, such as Knappertsbusch, whose names scream Wagner just as much as certain of the listed singers in the subpage. So, as a project what do we consider a reasonable scope given our numbers?--Peter cohen 10:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Project logo by Javitomad/1
At my suggestion Javito has design a logo which now appears on the main page. I've adapted it for a userbox, coded :

and Javito has put it on the banner, here:

Any comments? Colour balance? My own preference might be for a different background colour (i.e. not beige) for the banner. Any ideas? Thanks. -- Kleinzach 00:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Jeez, he looks like he's been dredged up from the depths of the Rhine! Does it have to be that bilious green background? How about lavender - one of his favourite colours, apparently. Don't think he'd like the green and neither do I.--Dogbertd 07:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that this green is a bit strong.--Peter cohen 13:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * He looks like the Hulk. I agree, let's change the background colour. --Folantin 13:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I will report back to Javito and see what he comes up with. -- Kleinzach 14:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I could make a new version with other colour balance... fancy?  :D  Javitomad [[Image:Flag of the Community of Madrid.svg|22px|Madrid]] (...tell me...) 14:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Perhaps we can also consider changing the background colour of the banner (above)? Dogbertd's suggestion of lavender for the logo might be good. -- Kleinzach 14:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Here it is: [[Image:WagnerWikiproject.png|50px|Wagner Wikiproject Logo]] do you like? I hope so.  :D  Javitomad [[Image:Flag of the Community of Madrid.svg|22px|Madrid]] (...tell me...) 21:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I wonder if we could make it lighter? On my monitor it is more purple/raspberry than lavender. -- Kleinzach 00:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think this could be very good if it were a lighter (or less saturated) shade of lavender. Looking at the chart on I could suggest something aboutFFC CFF or FF9 9FF. Thanks for your efforts! --Dogbertd 10:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I could try... but I'm having a break for a week, so 'till then I won't work any more... you don't mind, do you?  :D  Javitomad [[Image:Flag of the Community of Madrid.svg|22px|Madrid]] (...tell me...) 22:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No problem. Please take your time and have an enjoyable break! -- Kleinzach 00:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Männerlist grösser als Frauenlist
I have put this article up; now, does it go in the Wagner opera template or not?........Smerus 17:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Bayreuth canon
Within minutes of my creating this article, it has been proposed for deletion. I believe that it can usefully be kept here with rather more information than would be in a bare dictionary definition. Opinions welcome at the talk page. --Peter cohen (talk) 15:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Threat now lifted. Also, apologies for typo on capitalisation.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Project logo by Javitomad/2
I've been in touch with Javitomad and he's reluctant to make either version of the logo lighter as some of us suggested. That's fine of course, I'm sure we respect his opinion.

This is what we have now:

I'm wondering whether anybody else would like to have a go at editing/lightening the pictures. It's a superb image and I'm sure we can arrive at a colour scheme which looks OK on all our monitors. Best. -- Kleinzach (talk) 07:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As there has been no response to my message I've done a new version of the logo: [[Image:WikiprojectWagner2.png|80px|Wagner Wikiproject Logo]]


 * Is this a reasonable solution? -- Kleinzach (talk) 08:37, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. I like it better than the all-green or all mauve versions. Perhaps a version with white face and lilac background would be the best of all possible options? At any rate, this is better than anything that has gone before. Well done!--Dogbertd (talk) 22:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. But I'm not very experienced at this! Which colour is lilac? Do you have a number? -- Kleinzach (talk) 00:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I like the white/green version best. And so does my wife (altho' she is not a member of the Project so perhaps her vote doesn't count).Smerus (talk) 20:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Good, I've provisionally changed the banner and userbox over to the white/green design. If we have a lilac example later we can consider that as an alternative. -- Kleinzach (talk) 01:10, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Lilac. Looking at the chart on I could suggest something aboutFFC CFF or FF9 9FF. But I like the white face version regardless of the background.--Dogbertd (talk) 11:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Animal rights/Anti-Semitism
An edit, by User:Polentario, in Richard Wagner claimed that Wagner's vegetarianism was linked to an anti-semitic objection to shechita. I am aware of no evidence for this and rewrote the edit, incidentally turning it into English. I asked on Talk:Richard Wagner if anyone was aware of such evidence and there was an interesting, if inconclusive, answer to my query from Paul B. In the meantime I got the following comment from Polentario on my talk-page. He made a second edit to the Wagner page, even more convoluted than his first, which I have now also edited. I would be grateful for the opinions of others in the discussion on the Talk page.--Smerus (talk) 14:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Wagner's Rhinemaidens
I came upon the above article while cleaning out Category:Opera. It appears to be largely the work of a single editor and is currently up for GA. Could someone here assign any other categories that seem appropriate (Wagner studies???), and presumably it should have the Project's banner on its Talk page (where it has been suggested that the article be renamed...). GuillaumeTell 17:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've opted for Category:Richard Wagner and have invited Brian over here.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Task force?
As a project we don't seem to be very active. Would it be better to convert to being a Task Force of WP:WPO? That way we could legitimately have our material involved in their monthly improvement drives which, judging from discussions, may start to include attempts o get articles to GA or FA. The only significant non-operatic items in our scope I can think of are Wagner's non-operatic writings.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I am keen to develop as PC suggests articles on Wagner's more important writings - but few of these are completely 'non-operatic' as PC describes them. So far there is only an article on 'Das Judentum' - but nothing on 'Opera and Drama', 'Art and Revolution', the librtetti/scenarios for 'Jesus of Nazareth' and 'Wieland the Smith', 'Mein Leben'...............Just give me a year or two to read and digest 'Oper und Drama'.................Smerus (talk) 04:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not in favour of converting this into a task force. That would create extra work (converting banners etc.) and not achieve anything IMO. It's a descendant project which is fine. -- Klein zach  11:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Art and Revolution
I have drafted out, as a trial, an article on Wagner's essay Art and Revolution, and would welcome comments as to whether this is the right sort of way to go about Wagner's essays. Please feel free to edit or tinker about with it if you wish.--Smerus (talk) 15:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Good job! I'm always a bit nervous about Ashton-Ellis' translations tho'. I can never work out if these essays are impenetrable because of Wagner or because of AE's translation. --Dogbertd (talk) 06:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I find both the German and the English versions interchangeably incomprehensible, but perseverance evokes some shades of meaning.--Smerus (talk) 15:26, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

OK I've now tarted it up a bit and moved it as an article proper to Art and Revolution. however, seconds thoughts make me wonder whether it might not be better to have a general article about Wagner's writings (to give an overall context), and in addition specific articles such as this on the more significant works.Smerus (talk) 15:54, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I have now: Smerus (talk) 15:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * rewritten the single sentence stub that was 'Oper und Drama' and moved it to Opera and Drama. The article is still very insufficient but can be extended.
 * created a new category Category:Essays by Richard Wagner.

I've shoved the essay categories under Category:Wagner studies as it needed to be somewhere in the Wagner category tree. I wasn't absolutely certain on where to put it. Alternative suggestions welcome--Peter cohen (talk) 07:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the essay category should belong under Category:Richard Wagner (as does Category:Compositions by Richard Wagner), as the essays area actually by  him; and Category:Wagner studies suggests stuff by others about him. Smerus (talk) 10:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Advance warning! In the absence of any argument with the above, I will move the category back as a sub-cat of Category:Richard Wagner in 24 hrs or so.Smerus (talk) 12:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Now added The Artwork of the Future. --Smerus (talk) 20:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

And now Music of the Future.--Smerus (talk) 09:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Eva Wagner-Pasquier
Anyone got access to information on her? I've updated the article on Katharina Wagner and others have updated the Bayreuth Festival article to record their status as joint directors.--Peter cohen (talk) 09:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * In English:
 * Brief Bio Seattle Opera
 * Roger Cohen, "Bayreuth's Director Is Told to Leave", New York Times, March 30, 2001. (This has a fair amount about her career up to 2001)


 * In German:
 * Eva Wagner-Pasquier German Wikipedia
 * Profile Stuttgarter Zeitung, August 28. 2008
 * Interview Focus Magazine, Nr. 30, 1995
 * Best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Grove mentions her only in the article on Bayreuth. It says the following "In March 2001 the board of Bayreuth Festival decreed that Wolfgang Wagner should resign as director in 2002 and named Eva Wagner-Pasquier, his estranged daughter by his first marriage, as his successor. Wolfgang, whose chosen successor is his second wife, Gudrun, remains determined not to resign, and has threatened legal action if the board attempts to annul his contract."- Geoffrey Skelton: "Bayreuth", Grove Music Online.Nrswanson (talk) 07:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Work started. Anyone know who owns Unitel Films that she used to work for? The current Unitel links look inappropriate. And anyone know whetehr I have to link the Grman and Finnish articles manually or whether a bot will find them? Or whether putting i one link will then allow an inter-wiki bot to do the rest?--Peter cohen (talk) 23:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I would imagine she worked for what is currently this arm of Unitel, Unitel Classica. Company history of Unitel Classica here. I've added the links to the German and Finnish WPs, just in case. Although the bots tend to get 'round to it fairly quickly, the links might help others expand the article here. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:59, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks--Peter cohen (talk) 14:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

New German School
This is a massive article which, as I have suggested on its discussion page, should perhaps be split in to three - one on Music of the Future (Zukunftsmusik), one on the New German School, one on the ADMV. At least the first two of thee topics are highly relevant to Wagner. It also needs to be translated from Deutschlish into English - I have tried to make a start on this - and to have English, rather than German, texts provide in bibliography/ies. If anyone want to take a look and comment, please do so. The anonymous (presumably German) editor who created the article seems by some of his comments on the discussion page to be a trifle sensitive!!!--Smerus (talk) 17:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * PS: There might also be a case for merging War of the Romantics with part of the article - at least there should I think be cross references. There is a lot of overlap.--Smerus (talk) 17:53, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In view of the overwhelming interest shown, I have begun to plough through all this myself.--Smerus (talk) 09:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Operas by Siegfried Wagner
Hi all. I have two question. First, would operas by Siegfried Wagner fall under the scope of this project or be better at the opera project? Second, is there any interest here in creating some articles on his operas. There currently is not any coverage on his works outside of the article on the composer. See the opera corpus for a list of red linked operas.Nrswanson (talk) 07:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Sound restoration
After doing a restoration of a recording of Caruso and Melba singing Puccini, probably the greatest Italian opera composer, I thought it was time to jump over to almost certainly the greatest German opera composer.

Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg's Prize song seemed an obvious choice to start off with. However, I have access to six different recordings of it, and would like help making a short list of two or three. Over at WT:OPERA, I gave a long list of examples of what cleaning can do. I'm not going to repeat that here, but if in doubt, have a look at it, and ask me if you're uncertain.

Here are six possible prize songs. I'll be working from the .wav files due to legal necessity (the restored mp3s are copyrighted and licenced under a non-commerical licence, but I think I MAY be able to do better than them anyway.)

Give me a short list of singers from that list. I'm willing to do multiple versions, within reason - I think the song is important enough that seeing a couple different ways it could be interpreted might not go amiss - but I would ask that, in order to make the best possible choice, that the songs are chosen by consensus. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 22:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * We have articles on Leo Slezak, an important singer, and Heinrich Knote - not the others. Of the recordings I prefer Knote 1906. Knote 1906 and Slezak make a good contrast in styles. -- Klein  zach  00:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Neither of the Knote Prize songs are in that great of preserrvation - How about his Siegmund instead? Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 08:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The Die Walküre Winterstürme is good, but I thought you wanted Meistersinger? These are 1906 recordings so the quality of the recording is not all that relevant, it's the quality of the singing that counts. (Knote had a great legato line.) They are historical documents. In any case a singer biography can have more than one recording. -- Klein zach  09:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe I'm being too worried by some aspects of the UCSB restoration that I may be able to fix. The 1912's second verse  sounds terribly distorted to me in a few places (and, given the excellent first verse, I blame the recording). The 1906 seems rather rushed, otherwise its preservation seems fine.  Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 09:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * These early recordings frequently were rushed! The singers were told to speed it up so the recording could fit on the disc. Anyway, as I said before I preferred the 1906. -- Klein zach  10:10, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * ...Eh, sorry. Have a bad cold and not thinking very clearly. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 11:39, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 00:15, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I prefer the uncleaned up version. I realize you are trying to remove the background noise (and maybe some of the distortion?) but we are also losing a bit of Slezak. Thanks - and I do think this is a worthwhile recording for WP. BTW, can we keep the discussion here and not distribute the file around a series of different pages? -- Klein  zach  00:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Do realise the MP3s are *NOT* the unrestored version - they are the University of California's cleaned up version which may not be used on Wikipedia. That said, there is very little noise on this one, so here's a version with only pops and clicks removed.

Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 02:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it may be that I ended up increasing the volume a bit when I did the blending of the cleaned and uncleaned (you have to do that to put back in some of what was removed, and it involves some volume tweaks). Try this, and see if it will do:

Rhinemaidens now WP:Featured Article
Thanks mainly to User:Brianboulton, there is now a featured article associated with this project. If there is a member of this project who can help either with providing sound files (within Wikipedia policy) or even sections of score showing the discussed musical extracts, that would be nice. --Peter cohen (talk) 12:03, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Additions to project page
Salut - I made numerous additions to the project page referencing articles on en.Wiki that already exist related to Wagner. (I do not think there should be any complaints about this.) I also added a request for a translation of the article on de.Wikipedia on Minna Wagner. (This is a big omission in my opinion.) Please delete my additions to your main project page if you feel they are not appropriate. (I could add many more, but do not want to be too bold for going ahead.)

Also, two parts of the de.Wiki article on Wagner should be considered for additions to the en.Wiki article: There is nothing about Thomas Mann (!) and the few sentences you have about Ad. Hitler in the main article, I feel, are inadequate. - - For these points, I have not added anything to the main project page, but I hope someone else will.

(Note: My English is OK for small additions to articles, but it is not good enough for long additions or improvements. So, I do not not feel I should join your project group.) Amicalement, Charvex (talk) 09:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your input. Please join the project if you are interested in working with us here - language is not a problem as we can polish up the English easily enough.


 * I agree about the need for an article on Mina Wagner. Please note that this a small-scale (third tier) project and so far it has taken a conservative view on scope, basically concentrating on the operas and the family. We don't do mythology or general German history or literature etc. - subjects that other projects can do better -and we don't banner singers for example, but we have done written assessments of the articles that have Wagner banners which come directly under the scope of the project. Best regards. -- Klein zach  10:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Category:Wagnerian singers
Someone has just created a new category for 'Wagnerian singers' (only two names so far!). Is this useful? Can 'Wagnerian singers' be adequately defined? Is this a useful cat, or should we put it up for deletion? Thoughts? -- Klein zach  00:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * This has now been nominated for deletion, see here. -- Klein zach  00:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * And has now been deleted. -- Klein zach  00:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)