Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Role-playing games/Archive 8

Lynn Willis
Apparently game designer Lynn Willis passed away today. This article could use a ton of cleanup, and much better sourcing. BOZ (talk) 00:26, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Minor edition bias in D&D articles
I've noticed a very minor but systematic bias in articles concerning "in-game" information (such as the articles on character classes) for the various editions of Dungeons & Dragons. Information from 2nd Edition and earlier editions is given in the past tense, while 3rd and 4th edition information is predominantly in the present tense. I propose that all rules information, as opposed to historical information, would be more appropriately given in the present tense. 82.45.255.14 (talk) 21:09, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The World of Darkness
Currently, the "World of Darkness" pages are pretty awful, and there are a lot of them. Almost all of them contain nothing but sourcebooks and such as sources, and the pages about the clans, Gehenna and whatnot only contain really contain an in-universe perspective (perhaps with a bit of gameplay to go with it). As it stands, I could probably make a case for just deleting Vampire: The Masquerade itself. But I honestly doubt that, given that at least two of the gamelines have past their 20th anniversary and still get steady sales, no sources exist. Vampire, I can especially see having a good article.

So, if anyone is a fan of the WoD or feels like joining in, feel free. I'm going to start a draft of Vampire in my userspace. After some of the gamelines are up to a well-enough standard, I'm going to start a discussion on the clan pages, which I feel is likely to result in a mass merge of all of them (e.g. Toreador, Ventrue, Malkavian all just go into Clans and Bloodlines in Vampire: The Masquerade). However, this would be a big change, and there might be some hope for them, so I'd like to see what others think of it first. Bellum Stellarum (talk) 15:45, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I've started a discussion on merging the 13 main clans. If anyone has an opinion, now's the time to say it. – Bellum (talk) 22:25, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Relevant deletion discussion
There are a number of Vampire: The Eternal Struggle pages up for deletion at Articles for deletion/Anarchs (VTES). Participants more familiar with the game system than I am may want to comment there. Jclemens (talk) 03:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Merpcon and Tolkienmoot
Are not Merpcon and Tolkienmoot basically the same thing, and should they not be merged together? 129.33.19.254 (talk) 19:10, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

List of female role-playing game professionals
I will be moving the individuals under page List of female role-playing game professionals to their respective designer/writer/artist list under the main category. For example, Meguey Baker will go under List_of_role-playing_game_designers. I will basing this on the items listed under their works. I will also be expanding articles where I can find information. Although I can tackle this myself, please let me know if you'd like to help.

Smokebomb (talk) 16:23, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Article Alerts
I noticed that this WikiProject didn't have an article alerts page(!) so I requested one, and we now have WikiProject Role-playing games/Article alerts. For those who are interested in deletion of articles and improved organization, if you see a tabletop RPG-related article, category, template, file, miscellany or redirect that doesn't have the WikiProject Role-playing games template please add it on the talk page. This needs to be done especially if you are proposing a page for any of the deletion processes or see one that is already subject to such a process, starting an RFC or requested move on the talk page, requesting peer review, or if an article is up for GAN, GAR, FAC, or FAR, as all of these (and more) are tracked. Watchlisting the article alerts page I have linked to will allow you to personally keep track of these processes as it relates to RPG articles. BOZ (talk) 16:25, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Cleaning up GURPS
Is anyone going to object if I clean up most of the GURPS supplements into the List of GURPS books? I will, of course, leave the notable ones like GURPS Space and GURPS Cyberpunk (with unsolicited comments from the secret service) on their own page. But although GURPS might be a good system there's no reason for it to have about a third of the stubs for the entire RPG project. Neonchameleon (talk) 13:02, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The GURPS category is a pretty mixed bag. Taking a quick look to judge the sourcing present on the book articles, I would say that some are pretty clearly passing the WP:GNG:


 * GURPS Autoduel, GURPS Basic Set, GURPS Bunnies & Burrows, GURPS Cyberpunk, GURPS Discworld, GURPS Fantasy, GURPS Magic


 * Some have just one or two reviews or other sources, so they are more borderline debatable:


 * GURPS Aliens, GURPS Bestiary, GURPS Bio-Tech, GURPS Horseclans, GURPS Ice Age, GURPS Riverworld, GURPS Space, GURPS Supers, GURPS Vehicles


 * Many have just one review and/or brief mentions in other sources, so are questionable:


 * GURPS Alpha Centauri, GURPS Banestorm, GURPS Bili the Axe – Up Harzburk!, GURPS Blood Types, GURPS Callahan's Crosstime Saloon, GURPS High-Tech, GURPS Humanx, GURPS In Nomine, GURPS Infinite Worlds, GURPS Lite, GURPS Middle Ages I, GURPS Mysteries, GURPS Powers, GURPS Reign of Steel, GURPS Super Scum, GURPS Technomancer, GURPS Terradyne, GURPS Time Travel, Transhuman Space, GURPS Traveller, GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars, GURPS Ultra-Tech, GURPS Witch World


 * Some have reviews mentioned, but the sources haven't been added to the article yet:


 * GURPS Alternate Earths, GURPS Atomic Horror, GURPS Black Ops, GURPS Espionage, GURPS Martial Arts, GURPS Mixed Doubles, GURPS Monsters, GURPS Prime Directive


 * The ones that don't quite yet meet the GNG can either be merged to the list of GURPS books, or they can be tagged and kept around in hopes that someone will find the necessary sources to make them solid keepers. I know that both RPGnet and RPGgeek have listings of reviews and articles in magazines directly related to RPG books.  There are several articles I didn't mention above that don't even indicate the existence of independent sources, but a separate case could potentially be made for any of them. BOZ (talk) 19:09, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * And, for ease of reference, these are the articles on GURPS books which currently have no indication of any independent sourcing:


 * GURPS Alternate Earths II, GURPS Cabal, GURPS Grimoire, GURPS Gulliver, GURPS Illuminati University, GURPS Planet of Adventure, GURPS Rogues, GURPS Shapeshifters, GURPS Timeline, GURPS Uplift, and GURPS War Against the Chtorr


 * Now of course, unknown is not the same as nonexistent - there could be sources out there somewhere for these, but we just don't know about them yet. They could potentially be salvaged if something can be found, but ultimately they will need to be merged if we have nothing to source them with. BOZ (talk) 00:27, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * And in one fell swoop about a quarter of the articles using the RPG Stub template vanish. I've left what I consider the notable ones (I used to be a big GURPS fan) and the ones that were well written rather than stubs.  If anyone wants to take the stubs, the revert is not just possible but easy, whereas even the list is more useful than an almost empty article that no one looks likely to do much to.  I've also left GURPS In Nomine and a couple of other GURPS licences because I wasn't sure which way to send them. Neonchameleon (talk) 00:02, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Probably would have been better to discuss that a little more first before taking such a bold action... but if anyone wants to reconsider any of those, you are right that it can be reverted and rediscussed. Still, there is a big chunk of them left, generally the ones with the most apparent room for improvement. BOZ (talk) 00:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Just a thought. GURPS Illuminati and GURPS Steampunk are both Origins Award winners and so definitely notable despite not having pages of their own (Illuminati has never been more than a redirect).  And I actually own GURPS Illuminati.  I think I've a page to write at some point...  Neonchameleon (talk) 10:21, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I added a redirect for Illuminati recently (and a few others that may have potential) - feel free to build from there. :) BOZ (talk) 18:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * GURPS Illuminati now written up - far too few references alas. (Mostly because after twenty years, most of the reviews are pulped).  Does Applecline mention it?  Also both the Smallville and Leverage RPGs are on the annoying edge of notability (an [Io9 review] for Smallville, and an Origins nomination but not a victory for Leverage) - again, Applecline would be enough to push either of them over into notability, and both of them are just possibilities for Designers and Dragons based on publication date.  (I'd assume they'd easily get in to v2 but we don't have that yet). Neonchameleon (talk) 19:14, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I do believe I may have something from Appelcline! Will try to get on that soon. BOZ (talk) 19:03, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sadly, no, I was mistaken. :(  I found a previously deleted cover pic, though! BOZ (talk) 21:00, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Some thoughts... firstly, even if a subject is notable, being on a list page may be more useful to users than being stubs, IMO. Secondly, it seems a reasonable case of being bold to do this - assuming nothing has been lost. I take the view that, while overall I believe in a more inclusive approach to wikipedia, being included doesn't necessarily mean having to have a separate page, and the ultimate decider, for me, is what will be most useful to users. SamBC(talk) 16:28, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
 * That was my reasoning. I think every article I changed to a redirect either had no references or was a stub - and stubs are less useful to the average readers than lists.  And if anyone wants to leave an article with both used references and somewhere round upper Start or C class (they all meet the structure criteria for B class), bringing back all the old information is easy enough (see GURPS Illuminati University as an example where someone has done this).  Neonchameleon (talk) 14:00, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Where now? (Essay)
The RPG Box is, at present irrelevant; since the start of 2009 there have been a total of three changes that didn't involve AfDs in one way or another. The front page is only a little better, with the priorities being every bit as much of an issue. I've done a clean-up of some of the stubs (see the GURPS section above) and re-added or expanded some of the articles I consider notable, but as a project rather than as a collection of editors, this appears to be near-dormant - especially when compared to the D&D project.

We also have a serious problem with WP:GNG for anything new; all the print magazines are dead. Most of the discussion takes place on blogs, on forums, and on Google+. In some ways the hobby is healthier than it's ever been; there's certainly more variety for fans - but this doesn't help establish notability.

But we are moving forward. And there's plenty of work to be done. For historical work, we have Shannon Applecline's revised and expanded four volume Designers and Dragons due to start coming out next year (Evil Hat have recently released the 100+ page TSR section for free). For more modern work we have some games - and we have three and a bit awards. We've better sources than before, we've better games than before, and can build on what came before. I've certainly found a few things to do, and my next three projects are probably going to be a page each on Jason Morningstar, GURPS Illuminati, and 13th Age and I also intend to (unless someone else wants to) learn enough of the template markup to be able to create the criteria for B-class inside the RPG project template. And I'd like someone to take a look at the Fiasco page please? (I've re-written and massively expanded it, and think it's not too far short of B class right now). I'm also not the person to write it (although may create a stub or start class article), but the OSR definitely needs an article.

That's all short term. Where are we going in the long term? And what's important? Do we want lots of stubs, or to focus on fewer better articles (I'd say fewer and better, which is why I treated GURPS the way I did - looking at that page of GURPS stubs was just disspiriting for editing and pointless for anyone browsing). I'm also planning on going through the priorities in the box and discarding most of them (as I mentioned, almost all of them are five years old; after that time we've either done them or aren't going to do them at all). But where should our priorities be? Publishers? Indy games and the OSR (assuming that D&D and White Wolf can look after themselves)? Anything with an award? Fixing what we already have? Or just pitching in anywhere we can see fit? Neonchameleon (talk) 18:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * You are right that this project has been dormant, and probably for several years. Not quite dead, as you see activity above, but certainly not a very active project. Probably the best way to invigorate things is to do as you are doing, by taking the lead and making sure people take notice. One thing I recommend is trying to get more RPG articles to GA/FA status; this takes some work but is well worth it. As you probably realize I have been working from a copy of the first edition of Appelcline's book, which is a fantastic source. (Doesn't cover anything by Morningstar or Bully Pulpit though, despite a decently-sized section on Indie games.) Feel free to update anything and everything on the WikiProject page, as just about anything and everything on there is out of date.  Couldn't hurt to advertise what you are doing, to see if other people want to pitch in. Some users I know and trust who might want to help are Torchiest, Jclemens, Webwarlock, Casliber, Hobit, Bilby, BD2412, Craw-daddy, Chaos5023, and undoubtedly there are others. Another idea is to find out what other people want to work on and then help them out with it. BOZ (talk) 06:04, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I would also add a couple more veteran users to my list above - Frecklefoot and Muchness. No idea how much they or anyone else would be able and willing to help, but it never hurts to check. :) BOZ (talk) 04:51, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Borrowed from RPG.Net, Applecline's list of what's going to be expanded in the new version (in addition to the whitespace in the layout):
 * '70s: NEW — Gamescience, Heritage, Grimoire, DayStar, Midkemia, "about the '70s" essay; EXPANDED — TSR, Judges Guild, Metagaming. +50k words.
 * '80s: NEW — Leading Edge, "about the '80s" essay; EXPANDED FROM MINIHISTORY — Different Worlds. +10k words.
 * '90s: NEW — Metropolis, "about the '90s essay". EXPANDED FROM MINIHISTORY — Hekaforge; EXPANDED — Wizards. +10k words.
 * '00s: NEW — Memento, Burning Wheel, John Wick, Bully Pulpit, Kobold Press, Lumpley, Galileo, Atomic Sock, Posthuman, Red Brick, Ramshead, "about the '00s" essay; EXPANDED —*Paizo; EXPANDED FROM MINI: Fan Pro. +60k? words [not quite done].
 * The new version will be almost 50% more words (most of it as you can see about the 70s and 00s - including Bully Pulpit - it will also be nice to get some independent sources for Burning Wheel that aren't actually for Mouse Guard), and with a massively higher page count. The 80s and 90s on the other hand are largely unchanged (if the current one has anything on Everway in the WotC section, that page needs at least one more reference).  Book four is looking really useful.  I posted the mini-essay because I wanted to find out what other people saw as important; I'm more than happy to help out.  As for getting articles up to GA/FA I'm going to need help on that (partly because I'm aware enough of my shortcomings at editing myself that I don't classify anything I write as over a C on quality).  Oh, I've also tried to sort out what's going on between Sovereign Press and MWP - it's a mess that I'll re-write if no one else does but at least clearer and with less overlap. Neonchameleon (talk) 13:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I can help where needed. Though I am not as active as I once was. Web Warlock (talk) 15:25, 12 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I probably can't help much at all. I haven't played any role-playing games since the mid-1980s... &mdash; Fr&epsilon;ckl&epsilon;fσσt | Talk 19:43, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Mostly for fun
I've decided to create a Fiasco playset in my userspace. I do intend to use it as the skeleton for a diagram for the Fiasco RPG article - anyone who can think of extra needs, locations, objects or relationships to add (and that would lead to a complete fiasco) is more than welcome to help. Neonchameleon (talk) 02:37, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Earthdawn license/publication change
I'm a complete WikiNoob, so I have no idea where to report this, let alone how to go about addressing it. I got here by clicking the "Talk" link from one of the Earthdawn pages, so I thought I'd try here. I just noticed that (some version of) FASA has (re-)acquired the Earthdawn license, and have release a "Revised Edition" of (at least) the Player's Guide, which would be a more recent edition than what is shown on the wikipedia page (at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Earthdawn_books). It probably invalidates a bit of the main game page, too (at []). FASA's Earthdawn page is here: http://earthdawn.fasagames.com/ and the store page is here: http://www.fasagames.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_26_34&products_id=434. Mikehaynes67 (talk) 20:54, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Here's one of the right places (the Talk page would be another). Or edit the page yourself (and why not?) :)  There are entire issues round FASA/RedBrick (Earthdawn 4e has just been announced which I think will have been why you were looking), but Revised is, as I understand it, a line that is both just a single book long (they cancelled the planned GMs book when they announced Earthdawn 4e) and is only errata and bugfixes on Earthdawn 3e.  Of course I could be wrong here; I don't know Earthdawn at all :) Neonchameleon (talk) 02:09, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Fiasco (role-playing game) - assessment and advice please?
I've done almost everything I can think of on Fiasco (role-playing game) - the two exceptions are not adding an image for The Fiasco Companion (I'm not sure it needs a cover illustration, and the companion could possibly have its section expanded) and adding an illustration of a game that's 75% of the way through the set-up phase because I'm not sure whether using an existing playset comes under the heading of copyright, or using one of mine as the basis would come under the heading of original research. Could people have a look through and assess whether it meets "B" class please? And what would you recommend to try to push it to GA status? (Posibly removing the two blog link, message board link, and reddit link on the pre-publication history? - But that would take out all the pre-publication history...) Neonchameleon (talk) 22:48, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm probably not the one to ask for assessment questions, but you may want to make a request at Peer review. BOZ (talk) 07:32, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Taken there, thanks. Neonchameleon (talk) 15:21, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Draft pages
With the introduction of the new draft space feature, I decided to start whittling down the list of deleted game industry bio articles that I had been compiling. Within the last few months, I had restored over 30 other bio articles using available sources, but there were some that I could not do much with. Now, with the draft space, I am able to turn these articles over to the community to see if they can help me get them going again.

I have restored 17 articles as drafts: Adam Jury, Beth Sotelo, Chris Seeman, David Morgan-Mar, Emily Care Boss, Ethan Skemp, Geoffrey C. Grabowski, Jess Heinig, Jonathan M. Thompson, Meguey Baker, Paul Hume, S. John Ross, Scott Leaton, Steve Marsh, T. S. Luikart, Tom Braunlich , and Wilf K. Backhaus. The idea is to add sources and improve the articles so that they may be moved back into article space. Anything you can do will help! I have more that I have yet to look at, but this is a good starting point. BOZ (talk) 19:04, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent. I'll help out if I can, although I'm up to my ears right at the moment. bd2412  T 20:57, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Draft:David Morgan-Mar, Draft:Tom Braunlich, and Draft:Wilf K. Backhaus look about ready to go. Meguey Baker can be added to Vincent Baker.  And the good source for bios I found recently is guest of honour profiles - substantive, independent, and probably notable. Neonchameleon (talk) 22:24, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You may be right about Backhaus, and Braunlich may not be far from ready. The problem with Morgan-Mar is that it was deleted at AFD even with all the sources it currently has - I have not added any new ones. We definitely have to be more careful about putting AFD-deleted articles back into circulation - which these three are - because if they are not changed enough someone can just challenge it and have it deleted again. BOZ (talk) 05:27, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Morgan-Mar on second look has the issue that almost all the references are trivial so is almost a no-go. And on AfD I always find a pile of trivial references to be worse than nothing because it looks like a desperate attempt to avoid deletion. Two good ones is far more use than a dozen trivial ones - all the dozen does is avoid some of the nominations. But if there is a nomination it makes deletion more likely. Neonchameleon (talk) 02:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you find guest of honor profiles for any of the above creators? BOZ (talk) 04:26, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Adam Jury at Mechacon 2009 (no better link as archive.org doesn't store the Mechacon archive) Beth Sotelo (not much there). No profile for Chris Seeman at Merpcon.  Emily Care-Boss (and an award).  Meguey Baker: I-Con Lucca (google translate), Arisia 2014.  S. John Ross.  T. S. Luikart was guest of honour at GenCon 2012 - but for some reason web.archive.org doesn't have any records for the GenCon website between early 2011 and 2013.  The huge ones are Emily Care Boss and Meguey Baker.  Neonchameleon (talk) 15:53, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * And added to Meguey Baker, Emily Care Boss, and S. John Ross - the three with good profiles. Almost ready to go on all three I think. Neonchameleon (talk) 16:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * For Luikart, maybe we can pull something out of here? https://www.google.com/#q=t.s.+luikart+guest+of+honor+GenCon+2012
 * As for Baker and Boss, if you feel they are good to restore, any user can move them back into article space at any time – since they were deleted via PROD, anyone can contest the deletion at any time, especially once sources have been added to demonstrate notability. As for Ross, since like the others I mentioned above was deleted at AFD, it is not so easy.  If there is ever any doubt, in such a case you can approach the admin who deleted the article, or find a neutral admin to asses it, and if they agree it can be moved back into article space. Or you can be BOLD and just move it and see if anyone challenges you (maybe no one will). BOZ (talk) 19:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Had a look there for Luikart - nothing from what I saw. Baker and Boss to me both lack one necessary thing for classing them as notable game designers - producing notable games (the best I could do for Baker was a throwaway sentence in The New Republic). Neonchameleon (talk) 23:58, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * There's no reason at all that we have to rush any of these back into article space - it's best that we take our time to find sources, and do it right. :) Thanks for what you have done for these so far. BOZ (talk) 06:36, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

After successful Requested Moves, Tom Braunlich and Wilf K. Backhaus are articles once more. :) I will note that, in both cases, the number of unanimous supports to restore the articles were the exact same number of votes to delete them at AFD in the first place. ;) BOZ (talk) 16:58, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I have restored 15 more articles as drafts (including a few moved from AFC): Chris Eliasen, Dave Nalle, Dominic Covey, Jason Holmgren, John Anthony Prescott, Klaus Scherwinski, Lisa J. Steele, Michael Curtis, Michael Fishel, Philippe Tromeur, Richard Ranallo, Risto Hieta, Sam Chupp, Stephen R. Marsh, and Steve Crompton. Again, as with the first batch, the idea is to add sources and improve the articles so that they may be moved back into article space. Anything you can do will help! I may encounter other articles that I feel are worth taking another look at, but this should be the last "big batch" of articles I will move to draft space. BOZ (talk) 16:23, 16 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I'd love to help after the end of February. Please see my project above re: women in role-playing. Smokebomb (talk) 20:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Great, any help you can give would be awesome! BOZ (talk) 19:06, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Dresden Files Roleplaying Game
I've created/restored an article on the The Dresden Files Roleplaying Game which was deleted 6 years ago under wp:CRYSTAL. Not going to happen again when it swept the awards in 2011... But could someone who actually owns the books expand it please? Neonchameleon (talk) 22:24, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Cool. IIRC, this one gets a lot of attention in Appelcline's book (although who knows if my recollection is any good...) BOZ (talk) 05:21, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I put a little work into this one, by the way - the book has a ton of detail on this game. BOZ (talk) 06:37, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Neonchameleon (talk) 01:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Smallville's created
And I think that's all the games I can take through an AfD without being worried - although Cam Banks is a distinct possibility as lead designer of two notable games (does Applecline have anything on him under MWP)? As for that matter are Fred Hicks, Rob Donahughe, and Leonard Balsera - i.e. Evil Hat's core staff. And I've put my new pages on the cleanup section - help would be welcome. Neonchameleon (talk) 02:38, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I know that Appelcline says a ton about Hicks. I think he also discusses the rest of those designers, but I will have to check that tomorrow. Your Smallville article got redirected. BOZ (talk) 06:38, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I've reverted that. Could you check for Smallville under MWP in Applecline please? It would have been fast work by Applecline but doable. Neonchameleon (talk) 12:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yep, there are a few paragraphs on Smallville - will add some momentarily. Aside from spending a good amount of time discussing Fred Hicks and Rob Donoghue, the book does mention Cam Banks a few times, and Leonard Balsera a couple of times. BOZ (talk) 16:09, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, I started an article for Rob Donoghue. If you start any of the others, I will add info from Appelcline's book for them. BOZ (talk) 05:54, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Potential new articles
Battlestar Galactica Roleplaying Game - Reviews: Sci-Fi.com magazine, Revolution SF, Nuketown. The first one is solid, the second and third I'm not sure about.

Supernatural RPG - Reviews: The Journal for Transformative Works, Flames Rising fanzine, Flames Rising supplement review, Interview with Jamie Chambers. Again one very solid source, a questionable one, and a

Leverage - Review RP Gamer - RPGamer looks as if it's a reliable source, and an Origins nomination. But nothing else looks good to me.

All these three are on the edge. Supernatural looks the easiest to have pass the GNG - if I can claim Flames Rising as a reliable source. Any suggestions? Neonchameleon (talk) 03:57, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * OTOH - since I looked recently - I know we can get info on Leverage from Appelcline's book. As for the other two, I don't recall. I can look later if you want. BOZ (talk) 05:50, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The other two will be under MWP/Sovereign Press if they are there.  To me, Leverage is the big one as it's the one of the three I actually like (Supernatural actually scared a friend off tabletop RPGs for being far too full of numbers).  Neonchameleon (talk) 22:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Leverage: The Roleplaying Game added. Neonchameleon (talk) 19:16, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Cool, will add something to that. Sorry, nothing but trivial mentions there for BSG and Supernatural, although I will add what little I have if you start those. BOZ (talk) 21:54, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Supernatural Role Playing Game resurrected from redirect. Web Warlock I believe you know this game well? Neonchameleon (talk) 01:55, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Huh. Wasn't expecting to add Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple. I know next to nothing about it - but with four notable reviews it passes the GNG handily. Anyone want to kick it into shape? Also found an extra reliable source for Smallville - meaning that it's now solid. Neonchameleon (talk) 00:11, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * And a review for Hillfolk - can't find a second. Still a potential  Neonchameleon (talk) 00:21, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Does this count as a second? Neonchameleon (talk) 04:20, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Winning the Diana Jones award automatically makes it pass the GNG - stub article created. Neonchameleon (talk) 12:33, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Legends of Anglerre is now on my to-add list with academic research and multiple reviews (as well as rpg.net reviews). Of course I'll need to find my copy of that game now...  And I can't find much else in the International Journal of Roleplaying - but it's worth another look. Neonchameleon (talk) 03:53, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The Laundry Review 1 Review 2 Review 3 and a silver at the ENnies. Page had been deleted via a prod many years ago, so I've requested the original page. Neonchameleon (talk) 03:53, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Yggdrasil - Review 1 but can't find a second (RPG.net isn't a RS).
 * Tremulus Review 1, Discussion - not sure whether this is enough. Close...
 * Better Angels Review 1 Neonchameleon (talk) 04:12, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * If you ever had trouble reaching the deleting admin, let me know - I or any other admin can restore any article deleted by PROD. BOZ (talk) 04:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Turned out to be utterly irrelevant - something else called The Laundry. :( Neonchameleon (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Bundle of Holding Source 1 - BoingBoing Source 2 - The Escapist. This one's mostly going to be a list. Neonchameleon (talk) 18:40, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Mouse Guard Roleplaying Game - I'd be surprised if Applecline didn't have anything to say about it.Neonchameleon (talk) 01:08, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Potential GA candidates
I'm thinking there are four pages I know well enough that I can get to GA standard, with three of them as FA possibilities.
 * Fiasco (role-playing game) - which will be my first attempt. Currently in Peer Review
 * The Dresden Files Roleplaying Game
 * Marvel Heroic Roleplaying - possibly my second. And I know I need to re-write that page
 * Monsterhearts - too niche to take beyond GA IMO (it's currently only just over the GNG)

All four of them have the advantage that they are finite games with a limited run, relatively simple rules, and have a few interesting twists in their history. And are recent enough that digging up sources isn't that hard. They are also all games I both know and like. Thoughts and advice? Neonchameleon (talk) 02:40, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Advice? Well, it takes some work to get an article to GA, but when you do succeed it is a very rewarding feeling. I have taken articles like Pool of Radiance and Unearthed Arcana all the way there, but sometimes I stopped before I got there like on Curse of the Azure Bonds and Fiend Folio. I also did Wizards of the Coast and Gary Gygax and collaborated on many more. I know I recommended taking Fiasco to PR, but in my recollection in the past it did not take this long to get a response; you may want to ask around about getting someone to look at it, and I do recommend giving that a go on anything else you want to take to GA (and don't let waiting for a response stop you from working on the article). I would also give Against the Giants, Tomb of Horrors, and White Plume Mountain as examples of what you want an article to look like if you want to pass GAN. You don't usually have to have an article all the way up to GA quality when you submit it, as most reviewers will tell you what they are expecting, and give you time to work on it. BOZ (talk) 02:29, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks :) I think that Dresden Files is closer than Fiasco to be honest - too much of the game is in Fiasco right now.  (There's actually enough there that you can play it even without the rulebook...)  On another note would mentioning a primary source (Mike Mornard who might just pass the GNG) disagreeing with the history of Tomb of Horrors be wrong? Neonchameleon (talk) 17:29, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree about the Dresden Files RPG. I have a bunch of text from Appelcline that I can share with you, if you want to use more of it to enhance the article; I think you will need it if you are going for GA. On Fiasco, you might need to trim if what you say is true, to avoid WP:GAMEGUIDE issues.
 * As for your Tomb of Horrors question, I am not sure who Mike Mornard is, or why his opinion would be relevant, so I can't really answer that question without more info. BOZ (talk) 00:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Mike Mornard - the only person to have been in both Arneson's original Blackmoor campaign and Gygax's original Greyhawk, and I hope he hurries up with his kickstarter for his first hand account of such events. And yes, I was thinking of WP:GAMEGUIDE.  I probably will need all the help available - especially as my structure's been blown to hell and back as Dresden Files Vol 2 is basically a bibliography so I need to re-write that section. Neonchameleon (talk) 03:08, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I can take a look at that hopefully next week, and see what I can do for you - despite my success at GA thus far, I'm not an expert on getting it done and it has been a while. ;) Actually, I had heard before that ToH was in part built specifically to challenge Gygax's players who were having too easy of a time, so I'm not sure what the disagreement is. In fact, I think Appelcline may have brough that up in his book as well. If the article doesn't say that, I will have to find the right source and fix it. Forum posts are generally discourgaed for using as sources. BOZ (talk) 04:23, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Rob Bell
Haha - I just found out something cool and unusual, thanks to Shannon Appelcline. Rob Bell (game designer) and Rob Bell (Virginia politician) are one in the same! BOZ (talk) 01:19, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * For the sake of argument, the relevant quote under the ICE section: "Though Rob Bell left the company in 1990 – to eventually become a representative for the 58th District in the Virginia House of Delegates – he was soon replaced by Monte Cook as line editor and later by long-time Hero employee Bruce Harlick." BOZ (talk) 01:32, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Nice find! Neonchameleon (talk) 01:55, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * BOZ, did the Rob Bell (game designer) page exist before you made this find? It appears as if you created the page only to redirect it. Which is okay of course, just not quite as "cool and unusual" as if you found two existing and completely separate wiki pages that really discussed the same person :) CapnZapp (talk) 17:29, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Desafio dos Bandeirantes
We just lost Desafio dos Bandeirantes via an AfD. However between the opening of the AfD and its closing, the Portugese version was Prodded and came up with |an academic paper and a thesis. I think I've more to come from a completely random source as sheer coincidence. Best way of getting it back - wp:Refund? Asking Mark Arsten (the admin who closed the AfD)? Neonchameleon (talk) 11:45, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Bring up your findings to the closing admin – he will probably restore it for you. BOZ (talk) 17:15, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Ryan Dancey article
Apparently, Ryan S. Dancey is requesting some changes to his article at Talk:Ryan Dancey. 2601:D:9400:3CD:6C8F:AF5C:FA99:933D (talk) 13:07, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Rolemaster PROD
I just pulled a PROD tag from the Rolemaster system page. The article does need some NPOV help and sourcing, but the system is clearly notable. It suffers from some of the same problems that Yaquinto games do (lack of online sources due to its age), and that IMO makes it an easy target for stuff like this. Intothatdarkness 15:00, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources
Can anyone help me find reliable sources that cover role-playing games (or board games)? I can't seem to find very many. Also, if we came up with a list, it might be useful to add to the WikiProject similar to how WP:VG has a list of reliable sources. One I've found that I think are reliable: RPGamer.com, EscapistMagazine.com, RockPaperShotgun.com. --Odie5533 (talk) 14:05, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Is GnomeStew.com reliable? It has an impressive list of awards and nominations. --Odie5533 (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * There aren't many reliable sources that meet WP's standards - Gnome Stew from memory is basically a self-published blog, as are most of the community sources we'd like to use. Older games are easier when we used to have dead tree magazines for reviews.  Origins Awards, the Diana Jones Award, and the Golden Geek are all significant awards.  Neonchameleon (talk) 12:44, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

RPG Barnstar
I just proposed the RPG Barnstar. Please let me know what you think. Aguy2014 (talk) 02:04, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * here's an alternative. Let me know what you think. i know its not that great. Lucia Black (talk) 06:25, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

New edition of Designers and Dragons due soon
Possibly the best single source we have. Apparently being kickstarted next week Neonchameleon (talk) 22:39, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

AfD discussion for J. Hunter Johnson
J. Hunter Johnson is the author or co-author of 6 GURPS books (Author: GURPS Monsters, Co-author: GURPS Magic 3rd, Co-author: GURPS Bestiary 3rd, Author: GURPS WWII: Frozen Hell, Co-author: GURPS Japan: beauty, terror, and adventure, 2nd, Co-author: GURPS Compendium II), author of 25 published print articles & reviews, creator of gToons game for Cartoon Network (via White Wolf Publishing), and the Exalted card game.

The article is nominated for deletion because nobody has been able to find 3rd party sources for notability. GURPS Monsters was reviewed at rpg.net by Craig Oxbrow, who seems to be a writer, blogger, minor filmmaker, and artist, but I don't know if rpg.net is a RS for this purpose. It was also reviewed in issue 17 of Games Unplugged, supposedly available here (or at least another review in the same issue is).

Contributions to this AfD would be most welcome! Dcs002 (talk) 06:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)


 * RPG.net has (had?) a small stable of staff reviewers, but they also take self-submitted reviews with relatively minimal editorial oversight. The former might pass must for RS, but the latter would not. - Sangrolu (talk) 12:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

AfD Closed as No Consensus, with no prejudice for speedy renomination. Dcs002 (talk) 01:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

pen-paper.net - RS?
pen-paper.net seems to have a lot of information about things like authorship and credits, dates - basic stuff like that. But what kinda site is that? It doesn't appear to be a blog, but is it primarily a forum? A retailer? Or a news site? (To me it looks like a news site, but possibly a fan-run news site.) I used it to cit authorship for a bunch of J. Hunter Johnson's works, which shouldn't really be controversial stuff, but... is it the kinda site that will draw negative attention? Thanks!

I only became involved with Hunter because I was just jumping into AfD discussions, his came up, and I decided to fix up his page instead of going along with deletion because it seemed he was notable but just needed sourcing. I'm not an RPG fan, and I don't really know what's accepted as RS for a lot of this stuff. Dcs002 (talk) 01:24, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a news site run by someone who at least shares the name of the marketing director of Drivethru RPG/RPG Now (same site, different front ends). In other words the biggest seller of RPGs in PDF format.  Anything non-controversial should be fine, but it's not an independent source for establishing notability.  Neonchameleon (talk) 17:36, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Italian RPG
Hello, I have a catalog of all italian roleplayin game until 2010 (it's a book titled "Mondi Eroici" and published by Wild Boar, an italian rpg editor). Can I update Timeline of pen and paper role-playing games adding the italian rpg (only original games not translation from other language), even if it's not linkable online ?--Moroboshi (talk) 19:49, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

List of role-playing game publishers
I just added a List of role-playing game publishers - since we didn't have one, I thought maybe we needed one. Take a look, I put a bunch of work into it. Don't worry about the redlinks; I am probably going to be making articles out of some of them, but I am not sure yet just which ones. BOZ (talk) 00:19, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Pageview stats
After a recent request, I added WikiProject Role-playing games to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at WikiProject Role-playing games/Article hits.

The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the Tool Labs tool. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr.Z-man 16:29, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Expert attention
This is a notice about Category:Role-playing games articles needing expert attention, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. It will take a while before the category is populated. Iceblock (talk) 23:55, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Category:Role-playing games by year
I've created the structure, and the first few categories (to complement the well populated card and board games by year structure). 99% of the RPG games are uncategorized by year. Let's get to it! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks! 129.33.19.254 (talk) 21:29, 15 December 2014 (UTC)