Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility/Archive 7

David I of Scotland & Alexander I of Scotland
We should be avoiding 're-directs' & 'pipe-links' that promote the gaelic version of Malcolm III of Scotland & Malcolm IV of Scotland, as those linked articles are currently in 'english' version. GoodDay (talk) 18:33, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * See WP:NOTBROKEN. In other words don't pipe links that aren't piped if they change nothing visually on the page as is the case in these ones you were edit warring over. -DJSasso (talk) 18:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Those linked articles are in 'english', we should use 'pipe-links' that respect this. We should have'em shown as [Malcolm III of Scotland|Malcolm III] & [Malcolm IV of Scotland|Malcolm IV]. This is done for the surrounding Scottish monarch articles. GoodDay (talk) 19:07, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No, that is completely counter to the point of what redirects are for. Personally I don't care how they are listed on the page. I am just pointing out there are guidelines that actually say not to do what you did. -DJSasso (talk) 19:13, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Baloney, I did nothing wrong. PS: When did you become so interested in Scottish monarch articles? GoodDay (talk) 19:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I linked you to the guideline above, if you want to keep ignoring guidelines that is your choice. I have little interest in the content of the articles. But I do have interest in editors that are causing disruption just for the sake of disruption. -DJSasso (talk) 19:21, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Then you go and seek such editors, 'cuz I'm not one of'em. GoodDay (talk) 19:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a complete misinterpretation of the guideline in question. The guideline you are pointing to just says not to change links for the purpose of avoiding redirects. That is not what GoodDay was doing. He was changing links because he thinks the article in question should say "Malcolm III" instead of "Mael Coluim III". The link is incidental. Hmm, no, actually, that's not what GoodDay is doing. GoodDay is specifically violating the rule you point to. Personally, it seems pretty obvious to me that the articles in question should refer to "Malcolm III" and "Malcolm IV" in the text itself, whatever the links pipe to or don't. john k (talk) 01:11, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, John K. GoodDay (talk) 01:12, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * See above, I modified my position. I agree that we should not be using the Scottish names, but I'm not sure why you're focusing on the piping, when the real problem is that we are calling them "Mael Coluim" in the article text. john k (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm a tad confused. I was attempting to make this kinda edit [Malcolm III of Scotland|Malcolm III] & [Malcolm IV of Scotland|Malcolm IV] at that articles 'content' & 'infobox'. That's the names of the 2 linked-articles. GoodDay (talk) 01:24, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen
Hi, I'm trying to find reliable sources to verify the contents of the article Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen and am coming up blank. Can anyone here help? Thanks J04n(talk page) 22:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You might try the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels. john k (talk) 20:32, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Anyone willing to help out a new user who's interested in notability in Sicily?
I userfied an article for this new editor a couple weeks ago. The user has made some improvements to it, but I know nothing about the topic and am unable to determine if it's suitable for the mainspace (it does still need some work with citations). If anyone has interest in this topic, please take a look at the article User:Italian-royalty/Nobility in Sicily. Thanks! P. D. Cook Talk to me! 22:46, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Abolished nobility
Per Austrian nobility, all title of nobility in Austria were abolished in 1919. Most people who used "von" as part of their name dropped it. We still refer to "Ludwig von Mises" because he presumably re-added the "von" after he left Austria in 1934 and it's how he's commonly known. He had also inherited the title Edler. What's the appropriate way of using the title in the biography? Should we use it as if the title had not been abolished? Or say he was a "former Edler"? It is a not a common part of his name.  Will Beback   talk    01:15, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

"Styles" infobox
Could anyone tell me how your project generally deals with translations in a "Royal styles" infobox like the one at Princess_Maria_Amélia_of_Brazil? Do you list "Senhora" or "Ma'am" or both or neither? - Dank (push to talk) 19:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Three royalty articles up for deletion
Articles for deletion/Heir to the Ottoman dynasty, Articles for deletion/Prince Odysseas-Kimon of Greece and Denmark and Articles for deletion/Princess Desirée of Schaumburg-Lippe. - dwc lr (talk) 23:56, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

A new nominated article Articles for deletion/Prince Achileas-Andreas of Greece and Denmark. - dwc lr (talk) 12:56, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Prince Aristidis-Stavros of Greece and Denmark - dwc lr (talk) 19:27, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Prince Constantine Alexios of Greece and Denmark - dwc lr (talk) 21:42, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Consort list articles
A discussion at Talk:List of Irish queens and consorts has prompted me to open a deletion discussion for these types of articles, most of which are the work of User:Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy. Contributions would be welcome. Opera hat (talk) 13:40, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Moving Tudor dynasty to House of Tudor
There is a discussion in progress at Talk:Tudor dynasty about moving Tudor dynasty to House of Tudor for those who wish to comment. OCNative (talk) 14:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

A bit of help, perhaps, with Prince Yi Chung
Having trouble getting this article from unsourced to having at least one reliable source. Any assistance greatly appreciated. --joe deckertalk to me 23:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Non reigning royals title or no title?
A discussion which could have wide ranging repercussions for how non reigning royals are titled is taking place at Talk:Archduke Karl of Austria. The relevant naming guidelines for this article are WP:NCROY - dwc lr (talk) 21:43, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Guidelines need revamping. Those who weren't born royal, shouldn't have royal titles in their article name. GoodDay (talk) 21:47, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * And that would create all sorts of problems as one would have to find reliable sources proving what peoples legal names are, that is likely almost impossible. What would you call Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece? For German royals you can assume that their legal names are their titles in their native form, but without proof that is original research which is not allowed. - dwc lr (talk) 22:08, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In any case we cannot have a naming guideline that imposes a revolutionary bias. In Wikipedia, a republic is a republic, not something that should really be a monarchy. Hans Adler 22:26, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * A republic is a republic, naming conventions acknowledge this, that is why we don’t have articles called King Leka of the Albanians (Leka, Crown Prince of Albania), or Emperor Karl II of Austria, King Louis XX of France (Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou) and so on. - dwc lr (talk) 22:34, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Republics don't have Archdukes. Archduchies have Archdukes. Use of fictional titles is an indication of an anachronistic, pre-republican mindset. Hans Adler 22:39, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The French Republic has dukes and counts and the like, whose titles are all regulated by French law. john k (talk) 20:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Monarchies are all dependent on nations for their existence. If a nation decides not to be a monarchy anymore, from the moment that decision becomes legal in that nation the sitting royal family consists of Ex-King, Ex-Queen, Ex-Prince, Ex-Princess etc. Their descendants, born after that monarchy was abolished, are just regular citizens, with first names and a surname, like everybody else. Anything else is nice as a courtesy but has no bearing on reality. SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

How many articles' subjects are notable only for being dynasts or nobles of ex-monarchies? To title such articles by their "plain" names would be like using Samuel Clemens. —Tamfang (talk) 17:59, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * There are about a dozen men called "Archduke Karl of Austria" but for some reason the most recent pretender to that title is at that name despite the clear and unambiguous fact that it is not primary usage. It is more like placing John Adams (drummer) at John Adams because he's the most recent person who's been called that, or Charles Louis of Bourbon-Parma at "Charles II", because he is sometimes called that, even though there are plenty of other men called Charles II with a better claim to primary usage. DrKiernan (talk) 18:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it hard to add at the end (b 1961). - dwc lr (talk) 20:10, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it hard to move it to "Karl Habsburg-Lothringen"? DrKiernan (talk) 20:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * At any rate Karl Habsburg-Lothringen could refer to his grandfather. - dwc lr (talk) 20:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it hard to add at the end (b 1961)? DrKiernan (talk) 20:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Too late now I guess so yes, RM is well underway. - dwc lr (talk) 20:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

The use of the term 'pretender'
In a discussion at the BLP noticeboard I put forward an argument that we should try to avoid the term 'pretender' as being misleading for general audiences. It is a term of art for those who study royalty, but can be seen as a BLP violation for living people, and as simply confusing if applied to lots of long-since dead people. The term 'pretender' is easily replaced by more precise terms to cover different kinds of cases.

Advice at the BLP noticeboard on the particular cases they are worried about will surely be appreciated, as will discussion here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I kind of agree. I mean we apply claims to these people who probably just wanted to live out their life in peace without any care of their descents from royalty.--71.80.200.5 (talk) 23:35, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Pretender" is a descriptive term and is not a term with any negative connotation, so I don't see how it could be a BLP violation. Which is not to say that we should refer to people as pretenders who are not actually pretenders. john k (talk) 20:26, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Libro d'Oro vs. Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana
There is a bizarre battle going on along the following lines: Maybe someone with a lot of patience and with the necessary background knowledge want to sort this out and make the necessary WP:SPI reports against both sides? Hans Adler 12:37, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * /:The Libro d'Oro is just an inoffical and incomplete list. On the other hand, the Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana provides a list of 48,000 families. Ersormarchese is a fake duke who hates the Annuario because he is not listed there.
 * /:The Libro d'Oro inofficially continues the Italian nobility register. The Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana was discontinued in 1905. An unrelated new publication has adopted the name and lists 20,000 families. Contebragheonte is a fake baron who hates the Libro because he is not listed there.
 * It looks like there are quite a few socks on the scene. . I'm not sure quite what to make of any of it, but it needs sorting. Giacomo Returned 12:58, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

AfD pending on Wulfrida, Queen of Wessex?
The Wulfrida article states she was Queen of Wessex, as wife of Æthelred of Wessex. Articles for deletion/Wulfrida states "No verifiable evidence that Wulfrida existed." I assume users from this project may wish to comment one way or another on this deletion. OCNative (talk) 07:06, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Family of surname of royal/imperial origins
I'm pleased to inform you that I've created some "stub" on royal/imperial houses which are not present on en.wikipedia, neither in other wikipedia languages, only in it.wikipedia, are the following: Massimo Osmani Emanuele Gioeni Pilo Acuña Antiochia Valencia. Unfortunaly i'm unable to traslate it. Many thanks.Seics (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram
There are some concerns regarding that. Only two people have been significantly involved in the discussion. I believe your opinion will be very helpful to WT:Tambayan Philippines, Talk:Muedzul Lail Tan Kiram and User talk:RDAndrew. Naming convention seems to be the primary conflict. Moray An Par (talk) 01:18, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Afonso, Prince Imperial of Brazil is now a featured article nominee
Afonso, Prince Imperial of Brazil is now a featured article nominee. Anyone willing to review the article and share thoughts is welcome. --Lecen (talk) 12:20, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Or their oppose. Per WP:CANVASS, such notifications should be phrased neutrally, not skewed towards an outcome. DrKiernan (talk) 12:30, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * First comment amended 22:20, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Should the names of royals from the Western civilization have their names angliziced?
A Request for Comment has been made in Teresa Cristina of the Two Sicilies. See here. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, --Lecen (talk) 22:06, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * See my answer on that talk page. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 08:20, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Naming discussion regarding Eveline Hanska/Ewelina Hańska
Readers of this page may be interested in contributing to the discussion at Talk:Eveline Hańska. Cheers. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:23, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

FYI
I guess we forgot to notify you guys here pls see Articles for deletion/2011 royal tour of Canada.Moxy (talk) 00:27, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Svein, King of Norway
There is a dicussion of this man's status as King and his article title at Talk:Svein, King of Norway. If interested please join in the discussion.--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 04:53, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Move request regarding Spanish noble, claimant to the throne of France
Readers of this page may be interested in contributing to the discussion at Talk:Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou. Cheers. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Titling discussoin for list of Saxon dukes/kings
Readers here may be interested in contributing to the discussion at Talk:List of Dukes of Saxony. Cheers. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:54, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Daughters of Albert I, Duke of Saxony
Could anyone shed some light on the question I raised on this article's talk page? It concerns the daughters and who they married. Thanks. --Auntof6 (talk) 03:44, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand articles like this
Line of succession to the French throne (Legitimist) - I don't understand articles like this. I fear that they are absurd original research which then branches out to poison other articles with their absurdity. "He is recognised by those French monarchists who consider Philip V of Spain's renunciation of his rights of succession to the throne of France both on his succession and as part of the provisions of the Treaty of Utrecht as null and void." Who? Who are these French monarchists? If they are not serious people, i.e. a handful of crackpots, then the entire article should be deleted.

There are virtually no sources for the article, and one has to wonder if there is any legitimacy at all to the huge list of people allegedly in line to succeed to the French throne.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:46, 13 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I can't argue that the sources are on the page and I've no idea where the list comes from, but the Legitimist claim is a well-established one based on legal principles. Perhaps it's just the wording that needs amending, to describe it not as a group of people but rather as a perspective. Louis Alphonse is definitely the claimant, as seen in Opfell for example. Although, seriously theorising about the line of succession to a centuries-dead monarchy certainly qualifies as "crack-pot" to me.  Night w   06:33, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that I agree that Louise Alphonse is a claimant. I think that's a heck of a thing for Opfell to say about a guy, that he claims to be the King of France.  It strikes me as highly unlikely to be true.  What we might say is that in an alternative history in which lots of things happened differently, he would be the person most likely to be the present King of France (despite having a fine head of hair, haha).  My concern is that we talk about "legitimists" as if they actually exist, people who actually say that he's the King of France, and are (presumably) campaigning for this to be recognized in the law or whatever.  As far as I can tell, that isn't true, and it is bordering on a BLP violation that we so often wrongly accuse people of being claimants to things they are claimings, or pretenders to thinks they aren't pretending to.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:33, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * He styles himself duc d'Anjou, asserting his senior descent from Philip V of Spain, and has assigned his twin sons the titles duc de Bourgogne and duc de Berry, recalling the sons of Louis XVI's father. I would have thought this shows he at least considers himself the rightful King of France, regardless of how many "legitimists" agree with him. Opera hat (talk) 22:30, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly. None of these "pretenders" call themselves "kings". Rather, they usually claim that they are the rightful heir to a legacy which at max includes sovereignty, often includes the right to "regulate" dynastic marriages in their family, and always includes, at a minimum, public repudiation of the claims of rival pretenders. The fact is that where there are monarchists, there are factions within monarchist movements that include philosophies, followers, traditions, events and blogs. Exceptions may be to the many German ex-monarchies, except Bavaria, Prussia, and Saxony, who definitely assert claims as heirs to their "tradition". FactStraight (talk) 02:04, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * There are crackpots in all walks of life. If they are notable, then sure we discuss them in our articles. But Line of succession to the French throne (Legitimist) is an example of how we don't do it:
 * "The Legitimist heir to the French throne is Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, the senior member of the House of Bourbon." This is the first sentence of the article, and it does not set up the context in a way that makes it recognisable as fringe. Louis Alphonse "is" "[t]he Legitimist heir". This sounds as if it was an official function, moored in the French constitution. One needs to have knowledge about French culture and history that most Europeans have, but the average reader from Asia may not have, to understand from this sentence that the article is about the alternate universe of a tiny number of people who reject today's political system of France.
 * There is excessive detail. If some religious sect believes that the world will end on 5 August next year and 100 people who they identify by their names will play an important role in that, then this sect would have to be extremely notable for us to list them all. What's different about Legitimist French monarchists that justifies going into excruciating detail about the details of their beliefs? Hans Adler 11:20, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I would expect that Wikipedia considers it improperly POV to label political factions "fringe", per se. NPOV requires that within an article on a movement, fringe views not receive disproportionate coverage relative to more mainstream ones, but I'm unware of a rule that restricts the length of an article on a fringe movement relative to the length of articles on mainstream ones: on Wikipedia, such length has usually been a function of the interest of contributors in devoting time to the topic and, since Wikipedia is not paper, lots of long articles on fringe groups & movements are to be found here. It hasn't been that long since many of these same articles were being labelled "stub" with the injunction to expand. In response to other points made above:
 * The excerpted first line of the article cited above omits the link to "Legitimist" actually included in the article, which is where usage of that term for a fringe movement is clarified. However, I can see how more clarity would be helpful, although not much more should be included in the lede, IMO.
 * As for the use in that sentence of the term "Legitimist" to describe the duc d'Anjou as if that were an objective and prevalent usage rather than as freighted and obscure, again I'm inclined to agree with you. But see here for documentation to the contrary.
 * I also agree that listing the entire French legitimist line of succession is excessive -- although I would disagree with Jimbo that the members of that list are not legitimately in that line or that the line is original research: unlike the much-disputed Line of succession to the British throne, eligibility for the French legitimist "crown" is defined in a much simpler way that makes it easier to verify.
 * The rationale for listing Legitimist dynasts differs from that for explaining their beliefs. What distinguishes Legitimists from Orleanists from Bonapartists is a mixture of philosophy, politics and history. It is therefore complex. Why today's Carlists support either Carlos, Duke of Parma or his uncle, Prince Sixte-Henri of Bourbon-Parma as rightful king of Spain rather than Juan Carlos de Borbon, the actual king, is downright bewildering (see the Montejurra Incidents), yet I would argue that Carlism is notable and that encyclopedic accuracy justifies disentangling its issues to the extent there are WP contributors willing to objectively document its adherents' key differences. FactStraight (talk) 03:36, 15 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Mr Adler's speech was followed by prolonged, sustained applause from the assembled multitude. Or me anyway. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:48, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Renaming discussion regarding article Wilhelm II, German Emperor
The proposed renaming being discussed at Talk:Wilhelm II, German Emperor may be of interest to members of WikiProject Royalty and Nobility. Favonian (talk) 22:18, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

New AFD's
For a number of members of the Ottoman Imperial Family all listed under one proposal here. And also Greek Royals Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark, her brother Prince Nikolaos of Greece and Denmark and his wife Princess Tatiana of Greece and Denmark. - dwc lr (talk) 01:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * On a related matter, I just signed this project up for article alerts. New requests (including AFDs) on articles in Category:Royalty work group articles will shortly be added to WikiProject Royalty and Nobility/Article alerts, which we can transclude here.  Night w   07:32, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

RSN: Self-published royalty websites
Members of this project may have an interest in this thread: Reliable sources/Noticeboard. The two websites are used as sources for many project articles.  Will Beback   talk    00:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Renaming discussion regarding article Sigurd I of Norway
The proposed renaming being discussed at Talk:Sigurd I of Norway may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Favonian (talk) 09:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Emperor Kōnin
Can you guys give a look please? I rewrote it, since I had found some factual errors (anachronism of details mainly), but I feel some details would be better to go to other articles (several people were involved, as usual). Also I'd love to hear your opinion, if Princess Ikami and/or Prince Osabe (his empress later expelled and his first crown prince, see the article please) deserve their own articles, beyond notes on this article? --Aphaia (talk) 01:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Baron of Canalotti
There's an orphan article here which I've just PRODded. Anyone interested in Italian nobility might like to rescue it. At present it doesn't make much sense. Pam D  14:37, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Stewart or Stuart?
Readers of this page may be interested in the move request at Talk:House_of_Stewart. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:52, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Rules of Succession changed
Lots of news today as David Cameron announced unanimous agreement among the 16 realms to change the rules of succession. Presumably Succession to the British throne needs updating.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Even more, the changes allows now heirs to the throne to marry Roman Catholics !! Does this imply that George Windsor, Earl of St Andrews, who married Sylvana Tomaselli, a Roman Catholic, will be now again in line of succession to the British throne? Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 11:26, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It will be interesting to see. The law is supposedly not retrospective so the Princess Royal won't move up and so I don't think the Earl of St Andrews would necessarily come back into the line of succession. - dwc lr (talk) 12:13, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah that's a good point. Thanks for the quick response. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 12:24, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Changes to the settlement act don't come swifty. The announcement is one thing, but there's not much to it at the moment since no amendments have been proposed.  Night w   13:20, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The proposed changes should of course be discussed in the appropriate articles as proposed changes. We do not yet know that these reforms will actually pass - an agreement in principle among the prime ministers is quite different from successful passage in all the commonwealth realms.  Canada seems like a particularly difficult proposition, since each province has to approve the change separately - I can't imagine Quebec would be too happy about passing a change that still excludes Catholics. john k (talk) 04:35, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that's quite correct. I believe the Statute of Westminster says "dominion" governments have to approve changes in the royal succession, not individual provinces/states.  For example, when Edward VIII wanted to mary Mrs. Simpson, Stanley Baldwin consulted only the national-level governments, not every Canadian province - as far as I know.  Can anyone quote a reliable source that says otherwise?
 * Also - this BBC article talks about the application of the new law:
 * "Changes would apply to children of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge - even if they were born before a law change. It would mean, if the couple had a first-born daughter, she could become Queen. The change would not, however, apply to previous generations, so Princess Anne would not leapfrog her younger brothers Andrew and Edward to become fourth in line to the throne."
 * What the actual legislation will say once passed and approved remains to be seen, of course. Textorus (talk) 09:21, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What the Statute of Westminster says about dominion governments is superseded in Canada by the Constitution Act 1982, which subsumed a lot of previous legislation, including royal succession. Because succession is embedded in our constitution, the provinces must indeed each ratify the changes--though these ones should be relatively no-brainer. → ROUX   ₪  19:29, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Which means all ten provinces will decide how much of their wish list to tack on this bill, since it is only a minor inconvenience if it fails. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:52, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Prince Mircea of Romania
Perhaps that article should be merged into Ferdinand of Romania. -- GoodDay (talk) 07:41, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Please do so. Most royal articles have a list of the royal's children, inwhich this would fit nicely; the permastub on this unfortunate infant only exists to avoad a red link in the infobox. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:43, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Standardised succession table
Hello, I'm just here to advise of a standardised succession table I've recently created. See Succession table monarch for more info. Hope it comes in handy.  Claret Ash  13:00, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, looks great! One issue though: if an unused parameter (like notes) is left blank it doesn't create a cell, which looks slightly odd. Is it possible to correct it so blank cells are created?  Night w   15:04, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the feedback. I don't understand what you mean, though. I tested it here and blank cells do seem to be created. I checked the template code and it seems to force a cell creation, dependent, of course, on the name parameter being used. However, I note I didn't set a default value for any of the parameters. If you're referring to the fact that empty cells won't highlight when highlighting a table, then it'd be due to the lack of a default value. In that case, I don't know what default value would be appropriate. Could you tell me in which way it looks slightly odd? I have a coupe ideas of what else it could be but need more detail. Thank you again for the feedback.  Claret Ash  00:05, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The borders of the blank cell come up thinner than the others, but if you're not seeing it then I think it could just be the browser I'm using.  Night w   12:54, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, I know what's happening now. It's to do with how I created borders for both the table as well as each cell. I ignored it at the time as it didn't seem to make any difference on my browser. I'll fiddle with it, though, and see if I can adjust it. Thanks.  Claret Ash  22:46, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm clueless and have asked for assistance here.  Claret Ash  06:40, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Prince Alexander John of Wales
I've requested that this article be merged into Edward VII. Prince Alexander lived for only 1-day. GoodDay (talk) 23:27, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * There seems to be agreement on the talk page (for a different merger), but the article's still there. Is there some other problem? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:39, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I've done it. DrKiernan (talk) 13:05, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Princess Alexandra of Greece
I nominated Princess Alexandra of Greece for deletion. There have been several redirect !votes and one weak keep, all of which don't make much sense to me. An admin who appears to see this similarly has just relisted the AfD for a second time. Hans Adler 08:59, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Portuguese historians needed...
There is debate at Talk:Miguel, Crown Prince of Portugal about the reliability of sources, etc.

If any members of this project have knowledge about Portuguese 14th Century history, your input would be much appreciated.  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 23:50, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Surnames
Should royals, such as the supposed Mary and Anne of Denmark, be given such surnames? See Talk:Mary and Anne of Denmark. DrKiernan (talk) 17:15, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * This article is now under discussion for a merger at Talk:Anne, Queen of Great Britain/Archive 1. DrKiernan (talk) 13:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

European monarchs with 'no' regnal number
I've noticed that we've still got articles like Lulach & Denis of Portugal (for examples). Are we still moving such articles to Name, King/Queen of X? If so, should those articles also be moved or are RMs required? GoodDay (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It is "recommended" to move to "Name, King of Country" (WP:NCNT). I don't know much about Lulach but the article says he is known as simply that so it could be controversial if that one were to be moved. - dwc lr (talk)
 * I tried to move Denis of Portugal to Denis, King of Portugal, but it didn't work. GoodDay (talk) 20:36, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No, unfortunately it is now impossible to do anything on Portuguese royals because of the sour atmosphere. It looks to me like the move is opposed solely out of sour grapes and not out of any other consideration. DrKiernan (talk) 10:05, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * See Talk:Baudouin of Belgium, for another. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 06:23, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * And Talk:Charles I of Austria. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:57, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Lines of succession (Former monarchies)
Are these articles notable? Reigen (talk) 10:37, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Some more than others. I think it depends on what content can be included as one's like Russia, Romania, Brazil and so on are useful. One like Tuscany is perhaps a bit pointless and probably should redirect to the Austria-Hungary one anyway. - dwc lr (talk) 13:27, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * They have non-trivial POV problems. Many former monarchies have succession disputes (most notably the Crown of France, although the French rule of succession should be well-defined) and, since they are former monarchies, nobody can settle them; the family just divides. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:44, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The content is certainly notable, but many of them can probably be merged into articles on the monarchist movements if they exist...  Night w   09:33, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Template image
FYI, there's an ongoing discussion at Template talk:Monarchism about the image that should be used in the "Part of a series on monarchism" template. Pichpich (talk) 20:49, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Succession in Hanover
Is the Hanoverian law of succession Salic or semi-Salic? Reigen (talk) 00:16, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Salic, if the distinction is meaningful. When the House of Brunswick became extinct, the succession fell to the Hanoverians, not to the descendants in the female line. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The same thing would have happened if the succession is semi-Salic; in semi-Salic succession, the descendants in the female line could only succeed once the entire male line had been exhausted. Reigen (talk) 22:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That is what I meant by suggesting the distinction was effectively meaningless. The question then must be what would happen if the entire male line of Welf IV were to die out; and the only possible answer is nobody knows. Even if such a thing had happened while there was still a throne in Hanover, it would have been more a question of international politics than of law. Now there is no competent authority to judge such matters, it is undecidable.


 * I see. I thought they had some formal or informal law which would definitely state whether the law of succession is either Salic or semi-Salic. Reigen (talk) 10:25, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Even the accession of Maria Theresa was not "semi-Salic" in this sense. That's a convenient lawyer's classification but not history. The male line of Maximillian amy have died out with her father, but not the House of Habsburg.    Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:01, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Emperor Charles VI was the last male of the House of Habsburg. Even if the Habsburgs would wish to abide by the Salic law, they cannot, since the entire male line has become extinct; hence, the Pragmatic Sanction. Reigen (talk) 10:25, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Sourceless alert: Eraric
In my experience bogus data sometimes emerge and perpetuate on Wikipedia. My shallow googling for the spurious ostrogothic king Eraric indicates no source except the infinite number of wikipedia copies. Did he exist, or did a false meme slink into wikipedia? If you know anything please answer at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 16:59, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Marquis de Lafayette
There doesn't seem to be an article on the title the Marquis de Lafayette. We have the article Gilbert du Motier, marquis de Lafayette, which states that his father also held the title "Marquis de Lafayette". The article La Fayette family seems to indicate that the family was established by Gilbert du Motier (I suppose this would be as usage as a surname)... so there's no family lineage article. Does anyone have information necessary to build such an article on the marquisate? 70.24.251.71 (talk) 11:20, 13 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Gilbert du Motier, marquis de Lafayette → Marquis de Lafayette (discuss) -- 65.92.180.188 (talk) 04:12, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

British line of succession
There's many related articles which need updating, due to the birth of Isla Philips. Beginning with David Armstrong-Jones, Viscount Linley article. GoodDay (talk) 15:49, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:House of Stewart (Scotland)
Template:House of Stewart (Scotland) has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. DrKiernan (talk) 18:44, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Abul-Hasan ibn Mirza Ghiyas Beg
Came across the Mughal Abul-Hasan ibn Mirza Ghiyas Beg, newly renamed by User:Yazid97. My gut feel is that we can probably come up with a more concise name, but it's not really my field so can anyone help? There's a few more members of the family as red links at Asaf Khan.FlagSteward (talk) 20:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Talk:List of Norwegian monarchs
Please join this discussion about images use on List of Norwegian monarchs and the articles of the Norwegian kings.--Queen Elizabeth II&#39;s Little Spy (talk) 15:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

The Tory Island Royal family
This article may need some attention. Hack (talk) 06:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)


 * You can say that again. Delete/merge into Tory Island? —Tamfang (talk) 06:19, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Merge, I think. There is some reliable source coverage of the "king" but not nearly enough to sustain an article in its own right. Hack (talk) 07:14, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I had a bit of a go at fixing it but gave up. The article is now at Kings of Tory and has been started anew. Hack (talk) 08:36, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Additional comments required
Greeting everyone. There is currently a heated debate taking place at Talk:Elizabeth II in regards to the way the term 'Royal Family' should be capitalised. It has been established that the majority of the articles relating to the British Monarchy all tend to style the word in capitals when the context is specifically about the family of the Queen; and the same term would be in lower case if the words were referring to any royal family in general. Many wiki-guidelines have been referred and they haven't been very helpful, with most contradicting each other. Official sources also stated the words should be capitalised, while other sources into "proper noun styles" state the words should not be capitalised. Would it please be possible for members of this project to head over to the talk page and assist in settling this dispute. I have attempted to hold a WP:3O and provided evidence, but one user seems to be failing to "get it". Thanks,  Wesley  Mouse  15:49, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I would like to clear up my meaning on this invite too, as I have received an allegation of posting a bias, canvassing and attacking invite. The wording of the above invite is meant to be outlining the entire debate at Talk:Elizabeth II covering what has been said so far in brief summary.  Also when I said "one user seems to fail to get it", I meant one as in any one of the users may be failing to see the point others are making, so any assistance in resolving this would be highly appreciated.  Thank you,  Wesley   Mouse  18:25, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

"Shunzhi Emperor of China" nominated for Good featured article
I've just nominated Shunzhi Emperor of China for Good article. Reviewers are welcome to visit the the Shunzhi Emperor's talk page to open a review page! And could someone with more authority than I add Shunzhi Emperor to the list of good article nominees on this project page? Thank you! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 05:07, 7 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I have just nominated Shunzhi Emperor for featured status. The review page is here. Please come and participate! I would particularly like to know if the text makes sense to readers who don't specialize in Chinese history. Thank you! Madalibi (talk) 04:13, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Category:Royalty
contains a large number of sub-categories and articles which, strictly speaking, are not royalty, because they concern other ranks of the peerage, such as barons. I've removed a few, such as and. Some editors (myself included) left a note with the person who did this mass categorisation (see ), but despite the last comment there (20:21, 9 April 2012), I suspect that it has been ignored. -- Red rose64 (talk) 15:13, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I've thinned out the top category. DrKiernan (talk) 16:46, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of Alexandre, Grand Prince of Gutleben for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Alexandre, Grand Prince of Gutleben is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Alexandre, Grand Prince of Gutleben until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article.

Marie Joseph Anatole Elie
I believe the correct title here is probably sth like Joseph de Caraman-Chimay the younger. Can someone take a look and fix please? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:06, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Since Lugnuts was the only person to reply, and since the link he has given is consistent with the wife, Clara Ward, have moved to Talk:Joseph, Prince de Caraman-Chimay. It isn't redirect locked, so anyone else can move elsewhere. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:31, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Succession articles proposed for deletion
Several requests to delete articles entitled "Line of succession to the former throne of X" (e.g. Württemberg, Tuscany, Two Sicilies) have recently been proposed for deletion from Wikipedia by Pat Gallacher. Although Wikipedians from various projects are being notified of these requests for removal, I think those who monitor this page may also appreciate being notified. FactStraight (talk) 03:08, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Line of succession to the British throne, again
So it has now been proposed to restrict the list to only descendants of Elizabeth II. I thought anybody still monitoring this page might be interested in expressing their opinion on this. john k (talk) 16:51, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Royal Familiy templates
As I'm a self-declared republican, I won't push for these proposed changes. Anyways, I noticed that there's templates of deposed royal families that are titled as the following - Template:Romanian Royal Family, Template:Greek Royal Family, etc etc. IMHO, those should be changed to Template:Former Romanian Royal Family, Template:Former Greek Royal Family (or something similiar) for examples. GoodDay (talk) 20:11, 1 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Given that the omission of "former" creates no ambiguity, and that a template's title is not visible in an article, how urgent is this? —Tamfang (talk) 08:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

We need input at Australian head of state AfD
I've nominated that article for deletion, as we don't have Canadian head of state, British head of state, Jamaican head of state, etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 21:05, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

King PrithviBirBikramShadev grandson of Maharaj Jung Bahadur.jpg
file:King PrithviBirBikramShadev grandson of Maharaj Jung Bahadur.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 04:50, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Naming conventions for courtesy Lords
Comments would be welcome at Talk:Charles Hay (British general). Thanks. Opera hat (talk) 00:34, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

quick question
Do royal dynasties, houses, family pages belong in this wikiproject? If so I'll go ahead and start adding it to their talk pages because I noticed a lot of them like House of Plantagenet, House of York, House of Normandy, Hauteville family aren't tagged as such. Thanks, —   dain -  talk   16:51, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

FA Suleiman the Magnificent in need of care to maintain its status
The editor who initially shepherded Suleiman the Magnificent to FA status has been inactive for many years and the quality of the article has begun to degrade. Any experts who can come in and buff the article up to snuff again would be appreciated.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  03:26, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Bagrat de Bagration y de Baviera
This new article needs attention in terms of references, anglicised names, wikilinks, genealogy, etc. I thought I'd leave you a note, so if anyone is interested, please go ahead. De728631 (talk) 16:25, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Lord Greville Of Mullingar
Can someone working in this area check this article which I suspect duplicates an existing article as explained on it talk page. Rmhermen (talk) 01:58, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Chinese royalty portraits up for deletion
Several Imperial Chinese royalty portraits have been nominated for speedy deletion: -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 09:44, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Also -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 02:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Frederica of Mecklenburg-Strelitz image issues
Someone put the same image as that of her daughter's article in place of the previous picture. I reverted this but would appreciate some confirmation that the images are correct on both articles. See talk page for further discussion. Mangoe (talk) 13:28, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

File:Ducele de Halland.jpg
File:Ducele de Halland.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 01:44, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

File:Maharaj Jung London 1850 AD.jpg
File:Maharaj Jung London 1850 AD.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 04:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Chinese Emperor renames (and possible NCZH change?)
See Talk:Emperor Gaozu of Later Jin where a large number of Chinese emperors are proposed for renaming. It also appears to be an adjustment in the Chinese emperor naming scheme is proposed (and not on WP:NC-ZH, where it should be) -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 21:06, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Dutch monarchs move discussion
Please join in: Talk:Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands DBD 15:03, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Help needed in Alphabetizing peers "correctly" in a list
We could use some advice and guidance at Talk:List_of_Freemasons as to how best to alphabetize various Royals and Peers who were/are Freemasons. Please swing by and help us out. Thanks Blueboar (talk) 14:03, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Opinion request on House of Silva
I just found House of Silva while patrolling newpages, and it feels mildly suspicious to me -- not least because it was created by someone whose username is "Silvafamilie". As well, the only references are other Wikipedia articles.

Those might both be innocent errors from well-intentioned amateurs. Or they might not. And I really don't know where to look for this sort of detail. Can anyone tell if this is genuine, or just a hoax? DS (talk) 13:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Elizabeth II
I have begun an RfC on the question of whether it is bias to describe Elizabeth II as "Queen of the United Kingdom" in the infobox. Please comment at Talk:Elizabeth II. DrKiernan (talk) 17:23, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Horrible Histories
Hi. We're having a discussion on the fate of Horrible Histories TV show at: Horrible Histories (2009 TV series). As a relevant Wikiproject, we would greatly appreciate it if you would voice your opinion on the talk page, or to have a crack at editing and improving it. Thankyou for your time. :)--Coin945 (talk) 13:22, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

King Boris III of Bulgaria with M36 helmet.jpg
image:King Boris III of Bulgaria with M36 helmet.jpg has been nominated for deeltion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 01:46, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Invitation to join a discussion
Through this way, I inform there is a discussion at WT:Disambiguation about partially disambiguated titles, known as "PDABs". This subguide of WP:D affects articles in this WikiProject, some examples can be found at WP:NCROY. There you can give ideas or thoughts about what to do with this guideline. Note this discussion is not to modify any aspect of NCROY. Thanks. Tb hotch .™ Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions.  01:03, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion on WikiProject France talk page
Please come participate in the discussion over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject France. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 17:27, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Categorisation by inheritance/remainder
It occurs to me that it might be interesting and informative to categorise articles on noble titles, and perhaps royal ones too, by their inheritance clauses. i.e. broadly speaking, male-first primogeniture, male-only primogeniture, strict primogeniture, and "other". Typically this is already in the article, but "infobox'd" rather than by in category form. 84.203.38.5 (talk) 23:36, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Japanese emperor naming
See Talk:Emperor Jimmu where a whole bunch of emperors are up for renaming (there are more emperors templated than that are listed in the rationale) -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 12:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Talk:List of Georgian monarchs#Splitting into many lists
Please join in discussion on splitting Talk:List of Georgian monarchs.--The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 01:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Ancestry of Elizabeth II
seems to be mainly based on forums. It doesn't have this projects tag either. Took it to BLPN but if someone here can make sure it complies to our sourcing policy that would be great. Dougweller (talk) 06:03, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/The Order of the Eagle of Georgia and the Seamless Tunic of Our Lord Jesus Christ
For your information ...   Ravenswing   22:36, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Petar VI of Croatia.jpg
image:Petar VI of Croatia.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 70.24.244.158 (talk) 07:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Wives of Chinese monarchs
See talk:Princess Fu where the title for the wife of a monarch is being discussed. Is it "princess" or "queen"? -- 70.24.244.158 (talk) 04:51, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Jahan Shah IV
Could someone with decent resources check out Jahan Shah IV? I did a regular Google search, Google Books, and Google Scholar, but found nothing on the guy. The only cited reference is a book whose title and author also get no results. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 02:33, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

GAR
Akhenaten, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Dana boomer (talk) 17:06, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

RFC re: listing Crown Princess Victoria
It has been suggested that I bring this to the attention of editors here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:49, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

New article - Earl Umberto Marin
Is this legit? Hack (talk) 15:36, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Article deleted; creator blocked as a sockpuppet (see previous case at Sockpuppet investigations/Royalist Lady/Archive). DrKiernan (talk) 20:09, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Proposed restrictions on styles & titles of former royals
Proposed restrictions on styles & titles of former royals A proposal is now pending to !vote to ban use of titles, honorifics and styles historically associated with titled members of no longer reigning families or to require that wherever such titles are mentioned in a Wikipedia bio, article or template that a disclaimer must be attached informing the reader that the title/style is not legal or is a courtesy title only. You may read opinions and express your views here. FactStraight (talk) 22:55, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

AfC submission
Here's another AfC submission relevant to this Project. Regards, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 00:57, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Human height
Just seeking a wider range of input from informed persons at Template_talk:Height.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 01:21, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Elizabeth of Bosnia FAC
Last month I nominated the article about Elizabeth of Bosnia for FA status, but it has not attracted enough reviewers yet. Elizabeth was queen of two realms, but is most notable for her disastrous regency. The article (rated GA) is within the scope of WikiProject Royalty and Nobility, and I would be very grateful if a member of this WikiProject commented on the nomination. Surtsicna (talk) 12:54, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Georgian royalty / nobility
There is a content dispute going on at several articles dealing with currently living members of the former royal family of Georgia — which consisted of one or more kingdoms / principalities until the early 19th century, when it was absorbed by the Russian empire (and later, after a brief independence, by the USSR). Georgia is a republic today, but some Georgians have proposed a revival of the monarchy. The content dispute involves at least three articles — Batonishvili, Anna Bagration-Gruzinsky, and Giorgi Bagrationi (born 2011) — and as I see the dispute, it seems to involve not only the question of whether or not the currently living descendants of former Georgian kings ought to be styled as royalty, but also which of two rival claims to any potential restoration of the monarchy ought to receive primary recognition. In addition to the articles themselves and their talk pages, please see discussions at User talk:FactStraight and User talk:Richwales (one of the two parties to the content dispute has been seeking my assistance on my own talk page). Note that I am an admin, but I consider myself involved regarding topics related to Georgia. — Rich wales (no relation to Jimbo) 04:02, 31 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Both views, leading to conflicting edits, are well-summarized at Talk:Bagrationi dynasty. The challenge has been raised as to whether the assertions published by or based on the websites of the two royal pretenders may be included in Wikipedia articles as adequately sourced. I treat each pretender's website (http://www.theroyalhouseofgeorgia.org/downloads/Addendum%2010.pdf for Prince Nugzar and http://www.royalhouseofgeorgia.ge/royal-house/head-of-the-royal-house-of-georgia for Prince David) as a reliable source with regard to traditional dynastic facts (names, titles, marriages, coat of arms) about its own members and agenda, although not about external topics or issues. At the unresolved ANI case, EdJohnston questioned whether such sites may be considered valid sources. FactStraight (talk) 00:10, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * FactStraight, I think it would be a mistake to treat these royal-house websites as though they were reliable historians. In my opinion a personal website is usable only for the opinions of the author of the site. A website kept by an organization (like these entities that call themselves royal houses) may not be usable for anything at all here. I doubt that they are reliable for what happened historically. These people are not the Oxford University Press and they don't employ fact-checkers. They are more like political parties. As to which house is truly royal, we might as well be writing fiction because there is probably no fact of the matter. Monarchies become credible because they rule, and these folks haven't ruled anything lately. I suggest you raise these questions at the WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. If we waited until third-party sources outside of Georgia had given any attention to these matters the article about the little prince might get deleted under our policy. EdJohnston (talk) 02:30, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

You've just mentioned the historians and you've made a very valid point here. The thing is that the royal status of Nugzar Bagration-Gruzinsky is not and was never disputed by anyone and the only controversial, biased and disputed persona is David Bagration of Mukhrani who claims to be a royalty while he is not and never was as he is just a nobility. I asked the user above to present the reliable sources supported by the historians, professors and those who have a degree in a field of history, genealogy of Bagrations of History of Georgia as such and all he presented was some kind of sources from news agencies what is indeed laughable and shows clearly that no such sources exist to prove David Bagration of Mukhrani's being a royalty. I want to note that the user above is blaming me for being non-neutral just because he by having no sources is pushing his bias everywhere to present David Bagration of Mukhrani being a royalty and on the other hand he is ignoring the undisputed status of royal family of Nugzar Bagration-Gruzinsky, his daughter and his grandchild. As I've asked the user above to present the reliable sources proving David being a royalty and taken into a consideration that there are none of these sources I'd like to present again who the real royalty is and always was.

Nugzar Bagration-Gruzinsky is recognized as a head of whole Bagrationi dynasty by:
 * Professor Mariam Lortkipanidze, Doctor of Historical Sciences, head of the Georgian History Department at Tbilisi State University, leading scholar of the Javakhishvili Institute of History and Ethnography of the Georgian Academy of Sciences
 * David Muskhelishvili Doctor of Historical Sciences (1973), Head of Department of Historical Geography at Ivane Javakhishvili Institute of History and Ethnography of the Georgian Scientific Academy (1967), Real Member of the Scientific National Academy of Georgia (1993), Head of Ivane Javakhishvili Institute of History and Ethnology (1999-2006). Head of Commission of History, Archeology and Ethnology of Scientific National Academy of Georgia (2007 - present).
 * Roin Metreveli, academician and historian. Rector of the Tbilisi State University. Editor of the Georgian Encyclopedia. Author of more than 300 scientific publications and books about Georgian history and Caucasiology. Chairman of the Board of Rectors of all Georgian Universities.
 * Professor David Ninidze, Doctor of Historical Sciences
 * Professor Giorgi Otkhmezuri, Doctor of Historical sciences
 * Professor Givi Gambashidze
 * Anania Japaridze, Member of the Holy Synod, Metropolitan of Georgian Orthodox Church, a scholar of Georgian history

Adding to that Nugzar Bagration-Gruzinsky is recognized by all Bagrationi memebers (source here) in and outside Georgia except the only one family of David Bagration of Mukhrani who live in Spain and regard themselves as "royals".

I want to note that the propagandist and biased moves of the family of David Bagration of Mukhrani is supported by some Russian monarchists who want to justify the marriage of Maria Vladimirovna, Grand Duchess of Russia's father to that Bagration who was from Mukhrani noble line. Maria Vladimirovna's critics saying that his father married a person of an unequal status is indeed right and correct as everyone from the House of Mukhrani being never a royalty but just nobility could not marry a Romanov. And now because of this Maria Vladimirovna by knowing this fact could not be reversed all she and her "imperial" family does is that they support the positions of David Bagration of Mukhrani everywhere in Europe to make him to seem a royalty and on the other hand to justify that she was born to 2 equal status royalty parents which is a totally a blatant lie because her mother was never a royalty just like David Bagration of Mukhrani. Giving all these very facts that's why some Spanish and Russian sources especially without knowing the true genealogical issues regarding the Bagrationi dynasty regard David Bagration of Mukhrani as "royalty" that being result of the active biased work done by his Russian supporters. David declared his father to be George XIII as the King of Georgia and his grandfather Erekle III King of Georgia which is clear how ridiculous their actions are. Their family line shows it perfectly what they represent and what are their origins and the some sources from news agencies cannot be of an equal strength as of the historians, professors, academicians and all those who have a degree in the history of Georgia, Bagrationi dynasty and all those issues regarding to the genealogical issues. Again, this is of highest possible importance issue and all those articles I've posted in the talk page of admin should be edited accordingly to the reliable historical sources and not some news agencies especially the Russo-Spanish news agencies who have zero knowledge in the Bagrationi origins. Jaqeli (talk) 11:39, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Burke's Royal Families of the World, Volume II, lists the Bagrations of Mukhrani. DrKiernan (talk) 12:49, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Swedish Royal Family
Hello!

There´s a discussion at Swedish Royal Family, started here and continued slightly below here  about how to best mention Christopher O'Neill and three others who also married swedish princesses in the article. We´re at something of a stalemate, so if anyone would like to try to help us get a consensus, please do. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:04, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Boris, Hereditary Prince of Montenegro
Greetings! I have recently relisted a requested move discussion at Talk:Boris, Hereditary Prince of Montenegro, regarding a page relating to this WikiProject. Discussion and opinions are invited. Thanks, Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:40, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission - 16/03
Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/The Scottish feudal barony of Grougar. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 18:22, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/The Scottish feudal barony of Preston (Prestonpans). FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 18:22, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Opinions on InterLanguage Links?
All, In cruising around the pages of various nobility, sometimes I'll find a redlink (or 2, or 12...) to a family member. If I go look in the french or german wikipedia, sometimes I'll find a page about the person I'm interested in. In general, what is this project's opinion on changing those from straight redlinks to Interlanguage links where such pages exist? Regrettably, my language skills in these other languages is limited, so I could extract the bald facts, but I'm not yet up to translating the meat of these pages to bring them into the english wikipedia. 1bandsaw (talk) 21:27, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * I can see the use but I am not a big fan on these "in article" links to other wikis as it hides the need to create articles. MilborneOne (talk) 20:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Template talk:Post-nominals
Input requested. Should the default size of post-nominal letters set by this template remain at 85% or be increased to 100%? -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:29, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission - 01/04
Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Prince George Karageorgevitch. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 14:56, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Titles and article names
see Talk:Yi Gu, Talk:Yi Kang, Talk:Yi Un for discussion on what the proper name of the article should be, and how titles should be attached to the article name. -- 70.24.250.235 (talk) 09:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Auto-archiving?
This talk page is getting rather long, with many subjects untouched for a couple of years. I'm happy to move some to the archive, but I also see that User:ClueBot III provides the capability to move things to archive in an automated fashion. Would anyone object if I set that up for this page? 1bandsaw (talk) 21:44, 2 April 2014 (UTC)


 * With some help (thanks, Makyen!), auto-archiving is back up and running for this talk page. Topics that haven't been touched in a year get moved to the archive, and the indexing is consistent with the old archives.  1bandsaw (talk) 14:23, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

AfD of possible interest
The following AfD discussion may be of interest to editors on this project... Articles for deletion/List of the mothers of Georgian monarchs. -Ad Orientem (talk) 11:21, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Royal intermarriage
I've been working on the bringing the Royal Intermarriage article up to standard for a little while now. I've posted a request on the peer review page. here. It would be great if anyone has any input to give. Thanks! Sotakeit (talk) 12:00, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission - 04/06
Draft:Order of the Eagle of Georgia (and the Seamless Tunic of Jesus Christ). FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 13:34, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Royal Houses of Europe Template
If anyone has any input regarding the inclusion of princely houses of Georgia on the Royal houses of Europe template, a discussion has been started here and your input would be much appreciated. The template has used an inclusive definition of 'royal houses', included Imperial, Princely, Ducal and Grand Ducal houses. However there seems to have arisen a dispute regarding the princely houses of Georgia. Sotakeit (talk) 09:18, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject Royalty and Nobility At Wikimania 2014
Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.

• Less known major projects: Wikinews, Wikidata, Wikivoyage, etc.

• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____

• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost

For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to: Project leaflets Adikhajuria (talk) 13:08, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Alexander III of Russia & Nicholas II of Russia
I'm not certain why, but over the years Alexander's death date & thus Nicholas' accession date, have often been changed from 1 November (O.S. 20 October) to 20 October (O.S. 8 October), thus causing inconsistancies in both articles. The question is... which is correct? GoodDay (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
 * According to the story in the New York Tribune it was November 1st (Gregorian Calendar). -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:21, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Someone with better knowledge of these Julian/Gregorian dates, may have to go through these & perhaps other related bio articles, to clarify which dates are being used. GoodDay (talk) 01:26, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The Tribune along with pretty much every Western newspaper would use the Gregorian (modern civil) Calendar. Russia was the only major country in the 1890's that still used the old Julian Calendar (which is still used by the Russian Orthodox Church). Russia formally adopted the modern calendar after the Communist Revolution. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:32, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Which picture should be used for the lead image of Kamehameha I?
Please feel free to comment on an active dispute on Talk:Kamehameha I/Archive 1.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:49, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Royal intermarriage Good Article nomination
I've been working on expanding the Royal Intermarriage article now for a little while and have just nominated it for Good Article Status. A review from any of you would be much appreciated. Many thanks. Sotakeit (talk) 10:44, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Unclear identity
I have a source which indicates that Garsenda, Countess of Forcalquier was the mother of Gaston VII, Viscount of Béarn from a second marriage, presumably to Guillermo II de Montcada. However, both Gaston and Guillermo show that the Garsenda in question was the daughter of this woman by the only husband shown on her page. I don't see the sourcing for that data on those pages, but I'm reluctant to alter them based on a passing reference in a book that is not about her. Any suggestions? 1bandsaw (talk) 14:18, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Just because something is printed is no guarantee of accuracy. That said, if you have confidence in your source and the contradicted material is not sourced, my inclination is to go with your version. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:34, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I have taken your advice and been bold. Thanks 1bandsaw (talk) 14:58, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
 * User:Srnec brought in some additional data on Garsenda's talk page, so I've reverted. I appreciate the quick advice you both provided on this.  1bandsaw (talk) 20:46, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Moving Anne of Burgundy
I've started a discussion on moving Anne of Burgundy, Countess of Savoy. I would appreciate the input from others here on the project in the discussion. Thanks 1bandsaw (talk) 16:36, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Intros of current queen consort bio articles
How should we start such intros? Do we - A) go with Queen X of country (thus matching the respective article title)? B) Queen X? C) use the consort's maiden full name, or D) have no consistency atall & let each article have it's own version? GoodDay (talk) 14:21, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Personally I favor 'A' though this is not an issue I think we need to get legalistic about. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:32, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * As far as I am concerned, that is of trivial importance; just don't sacrifice quality for "consistency". There will be cases where a "non-standard" (if there should even be a standard) wording will be more informative, stylistically superior, or even more accurate. A reader is much more likely to ridicule a sentence such as "Queen Letizia of Spain is the Queen of Spain" than to open up six articles at once and compare their lead sentences. And why is the sentence so absurd? Because "it has been done [like that] on other consort bio article intros". Surtsicna (talk) 16:29, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission - 07/07
Draft:Sir Richard Threston. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 18:50, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Draft:Joan Douglas Dillon. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 00:38, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Peer review/Matthias Corvinus/archive1
Matthias Corvinus was an important 15th-century monarch in Central Europe. He is the first Hungarian nobleman who seized the throne without being linked to royal houses. The article has just undergone a restructuring and expansion, and it needs some improvement before GAN. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Borsoka (talk) 13:25, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Need for information
I am more or less new to Wikipedia, and in need of guidance. That is perhaps not the right place to ask, but if it is not, please tell me where to go. Since French is my first language and I am interested in French history and nobility, I tried to do some editing on the article Duc de La Rochefoucauld. I have done that because the article had been obviously translated from French, sometimes word for word, with obvious misunderstandings, errors, nonsenses and even expressions kept in French. My intention was to do first some basic linguistic corrections before working a bit more on the individual biographies. However, all my edits have been reverted by another contributor User:FactStraight, on the following argument: according to him, "La Rochefoucauld" would not a be place name but just a surname, and I would have tried to rewrite the article "as if it were a Realm instead of a surname". Of course, La Rochefoucauld is a place before being a surname, and the Duchy took is name from the place. FactStraight seems to consider there are on one side "realms" which are independent territorial entities, and on the other side ducal titles totally disconnected from any territorial reality. Of course, French titles did not work like that and the Duke of La Rochefoucauld was the Duke of a territory (although of course not an independent one) since all titles had a territorial basis. So "Duke of La Rochefoucauld" is not different from "Duke of Orléans" or "Duke of Norfolk", as I tried to explain him. Is there a way to arbiter this discussion in a conciliatory way? As far as I am concerned, I don't see the point to do more work on that article if they have to be reverted immediately on that kind of argument, so I would prefer the question to be settled by a third party. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.198.140.20 (talk) 16:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Gabriel de Saint Nicholas for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Gabriel de Saint Nicholas is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Gabriel de Saint Nicholas until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Moonraker (talk) 03:46, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

69.251.230.130
Special:Contributions/69.251.230.130 is making a large number of change to articles on medieval Royalty and aristocracy. Some appear to be vandalism, but others appear to be legitimate, making it difficult to know what to do abut the many edits made by this ip which, for example, change the names of the children of various members of the (mainly) medieval nobility. Again, some are clearly valid, but others seem unintelligible. Many involve changing one version of the same name to another (E.g Joan to Joanna) etc. More eyes on these edits would be useful. Paul B (talk) 13:13, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Featured list nomination for List of Knights Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order appointed by Queen Victoria
Hello all. Just to let you know, I've nominated this article for featured list status. The nomination page is here - any input or reviews would be much appreciated. Many thanks, --Noswall59 (talk) 17:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC).

Articles for deletion/Royal Etiquette
Although the article itself is problematic, the deletion discussion has an interesting debate about the actual subject. I wonder whether Wikiproject members would have any interest in putting together the properly encyclopaedic article that ought to exist under Royal etiquette? Mabalu (talk) 09:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Gelou: peer review
All comments would be appreciated here. Thank you in advance. Borsoka (talk) 03:05, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Princess Marie Luise Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel
Princess Marie Luise Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel, a previously deleted article, is being discussed for a possible move from AfC to the main space. Interested editors are invited to contribute to the discussion or help improve the article. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:47, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Expert attention
This is a notice about Category:Royalty articles needing expert attention, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. It will take a while before the category is populated. Iceblock (talk) 23:28, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Menumorut: peer review
All comments on this article about an allegedly Khazar ruler in the Carpathian Basin around 900 are appreciated here. Borsoka (talk) 07:49, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

18th Duchess & 19th Duke of Alba
Some changes are required at Cayetana Fitz-James Stuart, 18th Duchess of Alba, to reflect that her son is now 19th Duke of Alba. Furthermore, her successor's article needs to be moved to Carlos Fitz-James Stuart, 19th Duke of Alba. GoodDay (talk) 16:36, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

royalty/nobles keeping their titles after the monarchy is gone
User:Intelligent Mr Toad has raised this subject elsewhere on the wiki - why does Wikipedia give people royal titles when they were born years after the monarchy was abolished in their country?

For example, Princess Johanna of Hesse and by Rhine never actually held that title because the Grand Duchy of Hesse and by Rhine was abolished 18 years before she was born. Paul Austin (talk) 22:58, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Members of royal or very prominent aristocratic families in countries that have become republics are often referred to by what may be loosely called courtesy titles, that would denote their place or dignity if the monarchy were still in place or restored. There are innumerable examples of this and it is a fairly common practice in society at large, especially in Europe. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:10, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * WP should clarify that in each and every case. It is neither our thing to promote the use of obsolete titles, nor to discourage courtesy. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 04:01, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * That’s a really sensible compromise put forth by SergeWoodzing. RicJac (talk) 16:16, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't object to such people being referred to by their fantasy titles if that is how they are best known. But I do think articles ought also to include their actual legal names. Germany abolished royal and noble titles in 1919, and therefore all descendants of royal and noble families have legal names. In the case mentioned I would assume her legal name was Johanna von Hessen, but I don't for certain what name her branch of the Hessen family adopted. Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 10:18, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I concur. Legal names should generally take precedence over titles unless the titles have some legal standing. Courtesy titles, if there is evidence of widespread use, should mentioned in the lead and avoided thereafter. Perhaps we should discuss creating a standard formula for dealing with courtesy titles? -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:46, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that a courtesy title is a title rightfully used by a person within a system of noble titles - such as the son of the Duke of Wellington being called the Marquess of Douro, although he is not actually a Marquess. That is a different thing to a fantasy title, which is a title used by a person who has no legal right to it, because it has been abolished or because they have been deprived of it - such as Constantine Glucksberg calling himself the King of the Hellenes when the Hellenes have twice voted to abolish the Greek monarchy. All German titles belong in this latter category. Wikipedia's rule however is that people ought to be called by the name under which they are or were best known. In this case that is Princess Johanna of Hesse and by Rhine, even though this was a fantasy title to which she had no legal right. I would therefore begin the article: "Princess Johanna of Hesse and by Rhine (legal name Johanna von Hessen)". Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 00:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * If that is her legal name, I agree. Many (most? all?) Germans whose titles are defunct have had them added to their legal names as an additional first name, e.g. Borwin Herzog von Mecklenburg, Moritz Landgraf von Hessen and Christoph Prinz von Schleswig-Holstein. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 05:15, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm aware that former German nobles have incorporated their family titles into their legal names, but it seems clear that Johanna's legal surname was not Prinzessin von Hessen und bei Rhein. The German Wikipedia has no article on her, but the article on her father is titled Georg Donatus von Hessen-Darmstadt. (More generally, how does this tactic account for gender differences? A Graf's wife is a Gräfin - do they have different legal surnames?) Intelligent Mr Toad (talk) 09:09, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You misread mr. First names not surnames. Given name also known as a personal name, first name, forename, or Christian name. Christoph (first name) Prinz (first name) etc...--SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I honestly don’t think we will be able to give legal names without engaging in Original Research and making assumptions which could be wrong. With some examples mentioned I would assume Princess Johanna’s legal surname was Prinzessin von Hessen und bei Rhein, I think Landgrave Mortitz’s legal surname was ‘Prinz und Landgraf von Hessen’, Prince Christoph’s could be Prinz von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg as the senior S-H-S-Augustenburg branch did not become extinct until 1931 after titles were abolished and already part of surnames, Maria Emanuel, Margrave of Meissen was known by that title, but was Prinz von Sachsen or Prinz von Sachsen Herzog zu Sachsen his legal surname, did he change his surname to Markgraf von Meissen when his father died etc. - dwc lr (talk) 14:14, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation help needed for Angevin
Angevin, a disambiguation page related to this project, has about 36 incoming links. Any help fixing even a few of these would be greatly appreciated. Cheers! bd2412 T 14:24, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Listas Naming Convention
I've run into an area where I could use some clarification. Within the Template:WikiProject Biography there is a parameter 'listas' which helps to alphabetize names, so that an article with the title John Quincy Adams would be listed as Adams, John Quincy for purposes of sorting our numerous category pages. How do we do this for nobility? Should someone like Enguerrand VII, Lord of Coucy be sorted in lists as Coucy, Enguerrand VII; or Enguerrand VII de Coucy; or Coucy, Enguerrand VII Lord of or ...? If their article title includes what many would consider a family name (e.g. Humphrey de Bohun, 2nd Earl of Hereford, I would think it would be Bohun, Humphrey, but then how do you include the title (or do you)? Or is it de Bohun, Humphrey?  I can't find the answer at WP:NCPEER or on our project page, and I've seen pages where all these ways are used, even within the same family. 1bandsaw (talk) 22:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission
Here's another one. Regards, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 14:39, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission
Mind having a look at this one? Thanks again, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 19:17, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission
Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Gherardini family. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 10:54, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Looks like a very interesting article and well-researched. Is there something in the sources which could say more about their familial (marriage/parentage) relationships to other noble families? A family tree? Nice work! 1bandsaw (talk) 18:21, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!


Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Peer review: Glad (duke)
All comments would be appreciated here. Borsoka (talk) 03:31, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Featured list nomination: List of Knights Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order appointed by King Edward VII
Hello, I am just letting members of the project know that I have nominated the above article at FLC—it's review page is here. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 00:35, 29 January 2015 (UTC).

Input required
Would appreciate more input at this discussion, from members here. GoodDay (talk) 08:24, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

King of Antarctica listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect King of Antarctica. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. DrKiernan (talk) 08:33, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Peer review: Basarab I of Wallachia
All comments and suggestions would be appreciated here. Thank you for your time in advance. Borsoka (talk) 19:04, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia Primary School invitation
Hi everybody. On behalf of the teams behind the Wikipedia Primary School research project, I would like to announce that the article Nelson Mandela (of interest to this wikiproject) was selected a while ago to be reviewed by an external expert. We'd now like to ask interested editors to join our efforts and improve the article before March 15, 2015 (any timezone) as they see fit; a revision will be then sent to the designated expert for review (please see the article's talk page for details). Any notes and remarks written by the external expert will be made available on the article's talk page under a CC-BY-SA license as soon as possible, so that you can read them, discuss them and then decide if and how to use them. Please sign up here to let us know you're collaborating. Thanks a lot for your support! Elitre (WPS) (talk) 17:16, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Draft at AFC needs help
Please help to review Draft:House of Köröskényi - the sources need to be checked by someone who understands the topic. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Apparent contradiction in Zollern
In looking through the pages to try and tease apart the relationships between the Counts of Zollern, I have found a puzzle:

Frederick XI says that he died in 1401. Frederick X says that he died in 1412, but that Frederick XI succeeded him upon his death. Zollern omits Frederick X from the list of counts, going straight from Frederick IX to Frederick XI.

The German page Grafschaft_Hohenzollern includes Frederick X in the list, but also includes the contradiction in dates above.

Does anyone have a source that might help straighten out this line? 1bandsaw (talk) 18:39, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Huberty, Giraud and Magdelain's "L'Allemagne Dynastique, Tome V Hohenzollern-Waldeck" 1987, p. 30 (a family tree showing the first 16 generations of Hohenzollern males) includes the same anomaly (Friedrich X dies in 1412 but Friedrich XI had died in 1401), yet hints at an explanation: Although all the males of the minor branch descended from Frederick I of Nuremberg (d. c. 1200) were likewise named "Friedrich" down through the 11th generation, each one's numeral is counted from the first Friedrich to rule his branch's appanage. The most senior of these in the 12th century, Count Friedrich VIII of Zollern (d. 1333), had two sons, the elder of whom became Friedrich IX (d. 1379), 1st Count of Hohenzollern, and fathered Friedrich X who left no sons when he died in 1412. But the younger son of Friedrich VIII, uniquely, took no numeral of his own, retaining the old title "Count Friedrich of Zollern" and pre-deceased his brother in 1364/65; one of the book's sources (Europäische Stammtafeln, 1956-57 by Prince Wilhelm Karl zu Isenburg and Baron Frank Freytag von Loringhoven) says the latter shared, rather, in the rule of Zollern with his elder brother Friedrich IX until his premature death. It appears, but is not stated, that his elder son became the recognized co-ruler of his cousin Friedrich X (as compensation for having received no appanage and/or because of incapacity on the part of Friedrich X) and, as such, assumed (or is, historically, attributed) the numeral Friedrich XI although he actually pre-deceased Friedrich X, dying in 1401. Friedrich XI, however, left two sons who jointly succeeded their cousin-once-removed, being Count Friedrich XII (d. childless 1443) and Count Eitel Friedrich I (d. 1439), the latter becoming the ancestor of all subsequent branches of the Princes of Hohenzollern. FactStraight (talk) 06:34, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Ladislaus I of Hungary: peer review
All comments and suggestions are welcome here. Thank you for your time in advance. Borsoka (talk) 03:48, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

AfD of possible interest
The following AfD may be of interest for the editors in this project: Articles for deletion/Bharat Dev Varma. --Dwaipayan (talk) 17:39, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Sir Peter George Osborne, 17th Baronet
There is an ongoing RM discussion. Join in to improve consensus. --George Ho (talk) 07:18, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Kalolaa-kumukoa#Requested move
Please give an opinion on Talk:Kalolaa-kumukoa and check/verify the sources on the issue. Thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 12:47, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Quatar royalty question
Could someone comment on Articles for deletion/Jabr bin Muhammed Al Thani? – Philosopher Let us reason together. 19:57, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Spanish dukedoms
I am making a tabulation of Spanish dukedoms; see Dukedoms of Spain. Data is taken from Spanish wikipedia, es:Anexo:Ducados de España. If you have the time, please help in adding data to the table. For consistency, dukedoms which had been re-created have separate entries; the Houses column lists the surnames of the holders of the ducal title, unless there is only one holder, which I marked as "Lone holder". If you could find other dukedoms not yet in the list, add them too. Reigen (talk) 06:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Your opinions
Could I ask for your opinions at Category talk:Royal children. Thanks. CDRL102 (talk) 21:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Jazmin Grace Grimaldi
Can I ask for input at Talk:Jazmin Grace Grimaldi. Thanks. CDRL102 (talk) 23:50, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Merge Aryasb into Abradatas
It has been proposed to merge the article at Aryasb into the article at Abradatas, king of Susa. Discussion at Talk:Abradatas. --Bejnar (talk) 17:37, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Jadwiga of Poland
All comments would be appreciated here. Thank you for your time. Borsoka (talk) 22:03, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine (1874–1878)
Why is a religion listed in Marie's infobox?

A four year old toddler who cannot tell time or tie her own shoes is not old enough to have a religion. Paul Austin (talk) 14:53, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

British or Commonwealth realms
Can we have a final decision on how to describe Elizabeth II & her family, across Wikipedia? Shall we call them (for examples) British monach or Commonwealth realms' monarch? British royal family or Commonwealth realms' royal family? Shall we use Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms, or Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom or just Elizabeth II (which is confusing when we use a country for other monarchs, btw)? Myself & Miesianiacal, have disagreed on these issues (as recently as at Margarethe II of Denmark), therefore I think we need to clarify things. GoodDay (talk) 15:48, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Good grief. Are you really starting this again?
 * There's no way to refer to Elizabeth II and her family the same way in all locations in Wikipedia. It's not just inappropriate, it's incorrect to refer to Elizabeth II as "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" on Monarchy of Australia or any other page referencing both Elizabeth II and the monarchy of Australia together or any page on any monarchy other than the British one or any page referencing Elizabeth II and a non-British monarchy together. That, then, extends to pages like Commonwealth realm, wherein Elizabeth II is being referred to along with all sixteen of her monarchies, meaning picking out the United Kingdom to follow her name is completely contrary to WP:NPOV and WP:BIAS, unless it's contrasting or comparing Elizabeth II's roles as Queen of the United Kingdom and Queen of Jamaica, for example. In places like Margarethe II of Denmark, it should be different again: there, it isn't at all necessary to attach any country to Elizabeth II; "She is currently one of two queens regnant, along with her cousin, Queen Elizabeth II" imparts that information perfectly without the superfluous (and biased) addition of "of the United Kingdom" at the end (a point that would apply equally to "of Canada", "of Papua New Guinea", or any other country of which Elizabeth II is queen). Crafting each instance within the context of the article or paragraphs in which it appears has worked just fine, thus far.
 * And let's all remember, Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom was moved to Elizabeth II for a reason, reached after very lengthy discussion with much input. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  16:02, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You & I continously logger-heading on these issues across Wikipedia, is tiresome for both of us. That's why I've asked for clarification here. GoodDay (talk) 16:08, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I just said I'm fine with the way things have been going for some time now and, to be honest, nobody else has seemed to have a problem with it, either. Except you, that is. Something to consider. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  16:38, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Not using any country descriptives in Commonwealth realms-related articles is understandable. But this shouldn't be the case for non-Commonwealth realms-related articles. Anyways, we'll let others decide. GoodDay (talk) 16:44, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Let others decide what, other than what we "let others decide" all the time? Wikipedia is collaborative. Hence, I said above crafting each instance within the context of the article or paragraphs in which it appears has worked just fine, thus far.
 * You're not going to get any "one rule for Commonwealth realms-related articles and another for non-Commonwealth realms-related articles" rule. The United Nations isn't Commonwealth realms-related, but, if there was some mention in some United Nations-related article of Queen Elizabeth's two addresses to the UN General Assembly on behalf of all her realms, it would still be wrong to say "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" gave that address. Ditto for subjects like the familial relationship between Elizabeth II and Margarethe II; their being cousins has nothing at all to do with what country either of them reigns over. So, whether or not it's accurate, appropriate, or purposeful to include "British" or "of the United Kingdom" should continue to be decided on a case by case basis. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  17:02, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The issue should be decided here. GoodDay (talk) 17:04, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah, there's that classic GoodDay "reasoning" again. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  17:19, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed, Mies can't always have it his way. Though he's tried to, this last decade or so. Now, let's play nice & let others weigh in. GoodDay (talk) 17:25, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Odd of you to address me in the third person.
 * Anyway, so, this is not about establishing Wikipedia-wide rules that eliminate a problem that affects many editors. It's really about repeated failures over the course of a decade to get things "your way" and you're blaming me for it.
 * I get (believe me, I do) you're tired of combat with me. But, you misidentify the actual cause of those battles, even as you begin to see how they can be quickly resolved. Or, are you still not satisfied with the results in those two examples? -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  20:02, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We'll let others decide on whether or not, our side-stepping approach, is the best way to end our logger-heading, on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 20:15, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Then, the answer to my question is "no". I'm clearly okay with what you did at Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa and Margrethe II of Denmark. I'm also clearly okay with the results of other editors' attempts to appease your want to highlight the UK: "she lives predominantly in the United Kingdom", "she is more directly associated with government in the UK", and others, each depending on the context in which its used. Yet, here you still are, stubbornly fighting. Like I said, you've misidentified the actual cause of the battles you're tired of. -- Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  22:00, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

We'll continue to play it article-by-article, then. GoodDay (talk) 22:04, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to add draft, file and redirect classes for WP Biography
I started a proposal to add draft, file and redirect classes for all WP Biography articles here. This would first help organize any new drafts from the 80 or so articles at Category:NA-Class biography (royalty) articles so we can identify the draft articles more easily. Please comment there. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:44, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

AfD for Count de Salis-Seewis
There is currently an AfD discussion regarding an article that may be relevant to this project. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion at Articles for deletion/Count de Salis-Seewis. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:41, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

AfD for Count de Salis-Seewis
There is currently an AfD discussion regarding an article that may be relevant to this project. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion at Articles for deletion/Count de Salis-Seewis. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:41, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

AfC submission
See Draft:Edward Bouverie. Thank you, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 15:35, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

AfC submission
See Draft:Jane Lewkenor. Thanks, FoCuS contribs ;  talk to me!  16:52, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Imelda Marcos
I noticed at Talk:Imelda Marcos this is now tagged as a WPROYALTY article. Is this correct? I can't seem to find aristocratic status on the article page -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 14:07, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Removed. DrKay (talk) 16:45, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Also, this article has two biographical infoboxes, one for officeholder and one for royalty, do articles contain two biographical infoboxes, and since this doesn't seem to be an aristocrat, should it even use the royalty infobox? -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 04:51, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I've merged them. It actually had three infoboxes as the musical artist infobox was also used. It needn't have any. One is acceptable. Two is unnecessary and three is ridiculous. DrKay (talk) 17:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Proper styling for a Prince of Wales
Our article William Pitt the Younger currently contains the text the King's eldest son, Prince George, Prince of Wales, but the title of our article Charles, Prince of Wales would seem to contradict this usage, and I was inclined to edit the wording of the former article to remove the first instance of "Prince" so as to read the King's eldest son, George, Prince of Wales. However, the latter article cites a source whose title is The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales (2 vols), and so if this is correct usage I don't want to fix what isn't broken.

Thoughts?

Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 11:16, 28 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Article titles within this project have their own unique rules for formatting, see WP:NCROY. They don't follow all of the formal rules for the various titles and ranks within each country, but are blended and adapted to help searches within WP.  The specific section that applies here is 'Royals with a substantive title' on that page.  So the text on William Pitt is correct within usage, and the title of the article on Prince Charles is correct, for WP.  1bandsaw (talk) 17:30, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Category:Royal family orders has been nominated for discussion
Category:Royal family orders, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for upmerging to Category:Orders, decorations, and medals. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. RevelationDirect (talk) 00:20, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Education of the British Royal Family
There is a new article Education of the British Royal Family, requesting input from editors on several active RfCs and discussions on Talk and help with improvement to focus more on history and the theory and practice of the provision of education to the Royal family. Whizz40 (talk) 05:33, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Prince Oscar of Sweden (redirect)
Prince Oscar of Sweden redirects currently to Prince Oscar Bernadotte. Should that be changed to redirecting to Prince Oscar, Duke of Skåne? --Editor FIN (talk) 08:16, 3 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Your proposal does not seem unreasonable, but I would also suggest that according to WP:TWODABS, the redirect page should be converted to a disambiguation page. Perhaps this should be taken to WP:RFD?  1bandsaw (talk) 17:49, 5 May 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with your proposal to make it a disambigution page. --Editor FIN (talk) 04:48, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Peer review: Coloman the Learned
All comments would be highly appreciated here: Peer review/Coloman, King of Hungary/archive1. Thank you for your time. Borsoka (talk) 06:31, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Afd for Ankit Love's claim to the title of Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir
Ankit Love of the Dogra dynasty that had the last Maharaja Hari Singh ruling till 1952, has made a claim to the throne of Jammu and Kashmir. The territory is still subject to the on going armed Kashmir conflict. The article is subject to a heated Afd debate and requires urgent attention. Please also see Ankit Love's talk page.--Int Researcher (talk) 13:13, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Requested move
There is a requested move at Talk:Ayşe Hafsa Sultan on a page that lists this WikiProject as interested in the article's subject. You are invited to the talk page to give your input. OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")!  Paine  01:14, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Ladislaus I of Hungary (FAC)
Comments would be highly appreciated here. Thank you for your time. Borsoka (talk) 14:09, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Princess Johanna of Hesse and by Rhine
It's really interesting that WP's guideline on royalty means Johanna gets an article, even though she was a 2 year old baby. It's frustrating. Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 10:44, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
 * What's frustrating about it? -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:52, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

GAR for Tycho Brahe
Tycho Brahe, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. More details are available on the re-assessment page. Please ping me if you need anything as my watchlist is already quite large and I'd prefer not to add seven or eight more wikiprojects to my watchlist on top of the ones that I already have. Mr rnddude (talk) 23:36, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

OTRS query
Hey guys,

This was sent to OTRS, but seems better placed for you. Can someone take a look please? Thanks :) Mdann52 (talk) 21:28, 28 December 2015 (UTC) "I know that articles in Wikipedia can edited but given the prominence of the people involved, I am sending this to you with the hopes that you have a way of vetting my opinion for accuracy. I am not an expert in royal titles by an means but I have read quite a bit about them, certainly enough to know they can be confusing. I believe the Wikipedia titles for the current wives of several members of the British Royal Family should be changed . Specifically, I am referring to the following individuals:"

"In each case, the title of your article for these individuals represent the royal title these individuals would hold if they were to divorce their husband. In using these titles for your article titles, you imply they are divorced. For example, Sarah, Duchess of York is her current title and your article title reflects this. Prior the her divorce her title was HRH, The Duchess of York. The same hold true for Diana, Princess of Wales. Your article title for Diana is her actual title at the time of her death . She was HRH, The Princess of Wales prior to her divorce. When a female is divorced from a male member of the British Royal family, the HRH (if they held this title) is removed from their title as well as the word The. Their first name is also used where it is not used in their title when they are married. As I mentioned above, this all sounds quite confusing when you first here it and never really become one hundred percent clear for most of us. That is why I would suggest verify what I am saying for accuracy. However, I am sure you would agree that you do not wish to imply they are divorced and by using the title you currently do if what I believe to be the case is accurate."


 * You need some element of the person's actual name, beyond just their title, in the article title. The correct form is indicated in the article itself. I suppose we could do Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, but that's stupid because she's never called that, while she's frequently called Kate or Catherine in the press. Note that this is more or less exactly the same thing we do for peeresses. john k (talk) 18:39, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Article listed for deletion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Hubertus,_Hereditary_Prince_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Gotha Engleham (talk) 05:37, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

German Name Vandalism
Even though I despise the racist term "vandalism", it is wikipedia's word for the rule not to intentionally ruin articles. Most of the articles about German Royals, or Germans in General, have their names translated into English. All of the "Friedrich Wilhelms" for example become "Frederick William". Rather, most of them do.

Why?

We do this for no other ethnicity. For other languages, we simply Transliteration (a concept many wikipedia editors said they are unfamiliar with)Translating German names into English is offensive and tantamount to cultural genocide. I am glad they have the original German names listed in parentheses (Which I have fought years for, at the loss of several accounts, but have largely won!). However, the article's titles are clearly wrong.

If my name were Wilhelm, but you called me William, I would offended, and others would be confused as to whom William was. We do not do this with Japanese Royals. Or Spanish. Or any other ethnicity. Then, to make wikipedia look even less accurate, it does not follow this practice 100%. Maybe about 80%-90%. This causes even more confusion. If someone thought a Friedrich Wilhelm was a Frederick William, there can be a redirect. And the article can say "Friedrich Wilhelm so and so (Frederick William in English, Federico Guillermo in Spanish, Frederic Guillaume in French)" ,etc. Though, if his name is Friedrich Wilhelm, I am unsure why the other languages are necessary. Thought it would be much more accurate and intelligent then the current state of wikipedia.

I can easily fix all of the articles myself. However, someone would need to hold the wikigoons at bay for me. Vielen Dank. 2001:558:6012:5A:565:ABEA:FCDE:5BBD (talk) 19:42, 6 April 2016 (UTC)


 * It does not look fixed yet...73.220.34.167 (talk) 21:33, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe editors take offense to the "tantamount to cultural genocide" phrase. I do. Who wants to waste their time on someone who starts by insulting people? Drmies (talk) 02:12, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * While I generally agree that names should be in the original language, I should point out that with German royals this is a more complex issue, as many reliable English-language sources do Anglicise their names and in the past almost all did. This is often not the case in other languages (although French kings too usually have their names Anglicised in English-language sources). -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:46, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * We use the form most commonly used in English. And we certainly don't single out Germans. Besides the French, we list many Iberian, Italian, Scandinavian, Dutch, and Eastern European royals under anglicized forms of their name. We don't have articles about Fernando and Isabel or Tsar Nikolai II. Also: this is just pure trolling, right? john k (talk) 18:33, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

WP Banner
I assume you all use  for tagging your articles, as WikiProject Royalty and Nobility has no functionality whatsoever. Would anybody mind if I simply redirected that template to WikiProject Biography and explained this in the documentation? –Compassionate727 (T·C) 12:49, 1 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Compassionate727, sorry for the late response. The template that you point to appears to be used sometimes for articles which are not biographies, but are still relevant to the project, so it would seem that they should be kept separate.  However, a more thorough analysis of the pages that use it might prove me wrong.  1bandsaw (talk) 21:31, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Hon. and Rt. Hon.
So this is a thing that has been bugging me for a while in British-related articles. It often turns up in lists of officeholders. So privy counsellors are entitled to the style of "Rt. Hon.", while younger sons of peers are entitled to the style of "Hon." There appears to be a general ban on using "Rt. Hon." in most list articles, which seems probably correct to me, since a pretty solid number of those are going to have every person listed be a privy counsellor. However, there does not seem to be a similar ban for "Hon.," so a lot of list articles will feature privy counsellors who were also younger sons of peers listed as "Hon." This seems clearly wrong to me - they were, like the other people who are on the list with no honorific prefixes, "Rt. Hon." from the moment they were appointed to the Privy Council. It seems to me that a list should either include all prefixes (and of course use the correct "Rt. Hon." for privy counsellors who are younger sons of peers, or else use no prefixes, to avoid weird inconsistencies. I'm not at all urging the adoption of any consistent rule where all articles must do the same thing with this, but I feel pretty strongly that each article should be internally consistent. Anyone else have any thoughts? I assume, like almost all my wikipedia interventions of late, this will not get any reply, but it'd be nice. Also, does anyone know if there's a manual of style page, or some such, that would deal with this where it would make sense to bring it up? john k (talk) 18:30, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Generally, such honorifics are omitted under MOS:HONORIFIC. DrKay (talk) 22:13, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The guideline is about biographical articles, not lists. john k (talk) 23:46, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It says "and in biographical information in other articles". DrKay (talk) 06:53, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
 * So it does. I think there are definitely times when it makes sense to include them (certain lists, primarily), but generally not in running text. And we all agree that "Hon." should go if we're not using "Rt. Hon.," right? john k (talk) 14:27, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. This has always been the consensus. Any inclusion has always been incorrect, although it certainly does happen. No problem with stating in the body of the article that an individual is entitled to the honorific, but not inline. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:27, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Enid, Lady Burnham
Can anyone help pin down Lord Burnham?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:18, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Edward Lawson, 4th Baron Burnham. From the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography: "In 1920 he married Marie Enid (d. 1979), daughter of Hugh Scott Robson, of London and Buenos Aires. They had two sons and a daughter." Hack (talk) 01:51, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:19, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Count Henri, Marie, Joseph, René Marty
This was how I found the name, but not sure there should be all the commas. Anyone?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:33, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Herbert Stuart Pakington, 4th Baron Hampton
I just created Herbert Stuart Pakington, 4th Baron Hampton based on sources available to me. I'm sure there's more out there...--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:52, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Category:Succession-based civil wars
Aren't all wars of succession basically about who is to wield/embody supreme power in a monarchy with a hereditary head of state? If so, why are so many of the wars in the Category:Succession-based civil wars situated in republics with an elected head of state, or about wars which aren't about who is to wield/embody supreme power? The Chilean Civil War of 1891, for example, has nothing whatsoever to do with hereditary succession. The creator of this category wrote that 'This is a grouping of civil wars in which the primary cause involved rights to succession to leadership.' First of all, the 'primary' cause of a war is often quite debatable and sometimes arbitrary, and second, 'leadership' is quite a lot more vague than e.g. hereditary kingship. It seems to me that this category has no right to exist (at least not in its current form). The very term 'Succession-based civil war' and its definition seem completely OR, I've not seen them used anywhere else (Google finds 0 results for 'succession-based civil war'). We've already got the categories for wars of succession and civil wars, I propose to delete this one, unless someone could convince me why it should exist (perhaps with a different definition and/or different items in it). Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:25, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Peer review/Liliuokalani/archive1
Please help in the improvement of Liliuokalani by commenting Peer review/Liliuokalani/archive1 for suggested improvements. Thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:40, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Anton of Karelia
This was recently brought to my attention on my talk page and it is a mess. I am not altogether sure it is not a hoax. Can anyone shed some light on it? I am thinking that perhaps the author meant Grand Duke of Finland when writing Archduke but I am uncertain, except that the article is unsourced and unless improved needs to go away. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:08, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I have deleted it. It's more suitable for the creator's user page. DrKay (talk) 08:29, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Notice to participants at this page about adminship
Many participants here create a lot of content, may have to evaluate whether or not a subject is notable, decide if content complies with BLP policy, and much more. Well, these are just some of the skills considered at Requests for adminship.

So, please consider taking a look at and watchlisting this page:


 * Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll

You could be very helpful in evaluating potential candidates, and even finding out if you would be a suitable RfA candidate.

Many thanks and best wishes,

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:11, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Wu Zetian → Empress Wu move request
There is currently a move request discussion related to this WikiProject taking place at Talk:Wu Zetian. Please weigh in there if you care. —  AjaxSmack  02:23, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Suleiman the Magnificent
I have nominated Suleiman the Magnificent for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. DrKay (talk) 17:28, 11 February 2017 (UTC)