Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby league/Archive 17

Recruitment drive
How about we conduct one? The UK rugby league articles especially could do with some extra people as irregular and regular contributors.

We could start threads on the popular RL forums inviting people to join the RL project or just dive straight into working on articles: rleague, leagueunlimited, totalrl, rlfans. Can you think of more?

Club sub-forums could be pointed in the direction their club's article, championship/cup winning seasons, players etc. and given a quick guide in citing webpages and books (maybe how to cite could be on a page on this project).

The main discussion and international sub-forums could be invited to work on articles for different competitions and their seasons.


 * With the Huddersfield invite, for example, we could include a request for someone to head down to the George Hotel and take a picture of it and any RL Heritage Centre signs or to take pics at the final and make them available on a free licence for WP

Anyone up for helping on this? Got any other ideas?  LunarLander  //  talk  // 02:25, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can find some serious contributors, it's a great idea. I have obtained some information in the past (mostly in the way of filling holes in team line-ups for grand finals) but unfortunately the most that was added was a heap of unencyclopaedic fan-related material and I got stick for removing it. Hopefully you'll have more luck than me. (This is forum-related experiences, mind you. There are serious contributors on Wests Tigers articles like Doctorhawkes who add great (sourced) material.)  florrie  02:47, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Player categories
Right, let's get these untidy player categories of ours sorted out once and for all so they're nice and consistent. If no one objects to the suggestions below a request can be put thru to an administrator to move the categories en mass and this can all be forgotten about.--Jeff79 (talk) 08:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * While the second part of this discussion seems to have opened up a can of worms when it comes to deciding which nationality to categorise players as, there does seem to be consensus in favour of the existing categories' name changes as proposed. If no one objects I'll start putting together the admin. request.--Jeff79 (talk) 18:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good Mattlore (talk) 23:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

By club
As it is now we've got a mixture of "Category:[club name] players" and "Category:[club name] rugby league players". In the past I was an advocate of including 'rugby league' on the grounds that nothing's permanent and other sports with similar club names might pop up. I've re-considered and now think in the very unlikely event that such a case crops up it's best to cross that bridge when (if) we come to it and omit the sport from player categories. This is also what was decided at this similar discussion and is what every other sport on wikipedia already does (and it will also be consistent with the coach categories too). As for the club name, I think this should simply always be the article name. For example: Category:Eastern Suburbs Tigers players instead of the current Category:Easts Tigers rugby league players. So we all agree that "Category:[club name (as per article name)] players" is the way to go? --Jeff79 (talk) 10:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, but do we have Category:Bulldogs Rugby League Football Club players, that seems excessive to me, but otherwise fine. Below I have stated that we use footballers, why is different for club categories, to be players?    The Windler      talk   10:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If we go making exceptions to rules it's gonna get untidy and we're gonna need more discussions like these. We could move Bulldogs Rugby League Football Club to Bulldogs RLFC as per Halifax RLFC, Whitehaven RLFC or St Helens RLFC? But really, I think it's ok. Making exceptions to rules causes trouble, that much we know from experience. The whole idea of this is to put an end to further discussion about player categories.--Jeff79 (talk) 11:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * OK Jeff. I'll back this - Sticks  66  13:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * May I ask, why are we using "players" for club categories and "footballers" for national categories. I don't understand.    The Windler      talk   22:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * You'll find your answer in the first sentence of the next section. This discussion is divided into two sections because each of the types of categories to be discussed serves a different purpose. So I think using different language for each is justified.--Jeff79 (talk) 23:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Done.Jeff79 (talk) 13:45, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

By nationality
With the above we are categorising footballers by which club they play for, whereas with these we're categorising people of different nationalities by what they do. Hence I think we should follow rugby union's lead on this and move from "Category:[nationality] rugby league players" to "Category:[nationality] rugby league footballers". It already is that way with Category:American rugby league footballers and Category:Indigenous Australian rugby league footballers, so we've got a mix now and it'd be good to be consistent not only within rugby league but also within rugby football.--Jeff79 (talk) 10:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't really mind, but our old naming conventions had (rugby league footballer) in article names, so I agree for footballer over player.    The Windler      talk   10:53, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The bracketed disambiguator issue is dead and buried. That's what I'm hoping can happen here too. Just need to get agreement before making the request.--Jeff79 (talk) 11:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes. Makes sense to me - Sticks  66  13:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Totally agree. Can I just comment that on the occasion a footballer has played for the national team of two sides, as happened quite a bit in the late 90's & 2000's, then I believe they should be in both categories. Something to keep in mind when changing all the cats over. Mattlore (talk) 22:38, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I was meaning to bring this up as well. For some reason, having Kevin Campion in [Category:Irish rugby league footballers] has just never sat well with me. People who aren't familiar with rugby league's dubious international selection rules would be confused by this and will think some kind of mistake has been made. And so they should. As per the first sentence of this section, these are for categorising a person by their nationality and not what team they play for. That's what the [Category:(team name) players] deal with. A solution might be to introduce further categories such as Category:Ireland national rugby league team players or Category:Players for the Irish national rugby league team or something. We shouldn't say that Kevin Kampion is from Ireland. Mel Gibson is categorised as an American actor, even though he acted in Australia. Kostya Tszyu is categorised as a Russian boxer, even though he's boxed in Australia. In some cases players do migrate between countries, particularly in the home nations, and in these cases perhaps the case for dual nationality categories could be put forth. What I'm saying is there should be more grounds for being placed into a nationality category. Simply playing for that country's rugby league team is not enough in the case of this sport I think.--Jeff79 (talk) 23:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that cases from the 2000 World Cup were especially bad (Tonie Carroll springs to mind), but I think we need to recognise that the RLIF allowed them to play for the nation and I think playing for the national side makes you eligible for "Category:(country) players". A compromise like "Category:(country) national rugby league team players" may work, but it seems like a lot more work for a situation that (hopefully) will be reduced in the future. It also brings up grey areas, like Ian Henderson for example. Is he a Scottish, English or Australian player? Is Willie Mason Australian or a Kiwi (or Tongan)? I think we should be categorising players by their sporting nationality, which is decided by the RLIF, and thus we should be following their rules, even if we don't agree with them. Mattlore (talk) 23:32, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * One idea is to just categorise players only by the nationality they last represented (If we are counting QLD/NSW as well then Campion becomes Australian again). My concern is that, if we don't have "rules" set down to define Sporting Nationality for Rugby League, then I think we will run into trouble, and the best/most authoritative rules are those used by the RLIF. Mattlore (talk) 23:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I must say I'd be far happier looking at the bottom of Kevin Campion's article and seeing:
 * [Category:Australian rubgy league footballers], [Category:Ireland national rugby league team players]

rather than:
 * [Category:Australian rugby league footballers], [Category:Irish rugby league footballers]

So I'm hoping you'll go for the compromise of additional team categories. I think people looking in the nationality categories are looking for a list of footballers from that country. But I think it's similarly informative to have a list of players for a national team for people to be able to look through as well.--Jeff79 (talk) 23:46, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem I have, as I tried to illustrate, is how do we write a set of rules that are consistent? How do we work out who is from that country. Otherwise we open ourselves up to edit wars along the lines of "hes more Scottish than English", "no hes English!". How do we establish a set of rules that have Campion as Australian and Mason as Australian? I think categorising players by the last nation they played is the simplest/best solution. But I am happy to listen to other ideas. Thoughts? Mattlore (talk) 00:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I've often wondered why we don't have a category for Australian national team members rather than just lumping everyone (or almost everyone) in [Category:Australian rugby league players], so I'd back your suggestion Jeff. I have no problem with a player having more than one category for national teams, but definitely only one category for nationality. A footballer can be Australian and still play for the Irish national team without it making the player Irish.  florrie  06:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't understand why a player has to be more Scottish than English, and that only one nationality can be set. For example, if the player himself hasn't ever come out and said, "I am Scottish", and then we say he's Scottish in his article, doesn't that constitute original research? Similarly, if he's played for two nations, who are we to decide which one is more applicable now? I'd hardly say Danny Brough playing for Scotland at WC08 made him stop being English. Many people, myself included, share eligible citizenship with two nations. What's wrong with saying Pat Richards is Australian-Irish? Another dynamic to this debate you have to consider is this: there are four constituent countries to the United Kingdom. How do you decide whether a rugby player is British or English? My solution would be:
 * Have separate categories for specific national teams;
 * Apply the appropriate bi-national category, for example: [Category:Australians with Irish descent];
 * In the introduction, refer to both nationalities.
 * For conflicts between Britain and a constituent country, always refer to the constituent country. GW  (talk)  08:06, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sure we're not the first to have this discussion. I've had a sniff around Categorization of people but couldn't find anything really helpful there. It seems from the Mel Gibson and Kosta Tszyu examples that perhaps only one nationality should be chosen. Probably depending on what kind of passport they hold. This, of course, would be difficult to find out and verify. I still think the introduction of national team player categories will help us a lot. What should be our priority is over-populated categories like Category: American rugby league footballers being de-populated so that they reflect reality, and introducing national team player categories will go a long way toward fixing this. Cases like Mason, Hunt and Carroll, where dual-nationality is a distinct possibility, can be dealt with as they come up. As much as I don't like case-by-case approaches, it's a messy one and there doesn't appear to be a simple soluton. Perhaps a discussion at WP:BLP or Categorization of people could help coz I'm certain this will have been dealt with on wikipedia before.--Jeff79 (talk) 12:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I really would like to avoid a case-by-case approach as it would be messy and could lead to endless discussions if challenged by vandals. User:Folau111 was bad enough this year as it was. Like you I haven't been able to find any policy to use as a guide, the closest is the MOS FLAGS that mentions sporting nationality should be identified by flags, not actual nationality, but that's hardly relevant here. I don't think we can categorise them by passport because a) privacy issues and b) almost impossible to verify c) the subtle difference between citizenship and nationality. I still think we have to stick with a football based solution: something like a) national team played/declared for (latest takes precedent), b) nation born in. Otherwise we could sort by nation born in, but that doesn't fit for many cases, and I don't see any other options that could be applied as a objective rule. Mattlore (talk) 12:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Extreme solution: What about abolishing the "nationality" categories and just having the "national team player" ones? :S


 * It is an encyclopedia, right? Which in essence should deal in black & white only?  Singularising nationality is a grey area, so in my opinion you need to stick with what you can be certain of, and that is teams that someone has played for.  Kevin Campion is a representative player who has represented Ireland and Queensland in rugby league.  Tonie Carroll is a representative player who has represented Australia, New Zealand and Queensland in rugby league.  Noel Goldthorpe is a representative player who has represented New South Wales in rugby league.  If you use that kind of language you can't get into any disagreements or debates, because it is stating an incontrovertible fact. Azkatro (talk) 07:42, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * And here we go again...Big Lez, Folou111 et al, this time as Halo3betrays.  florrie  14:27, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh dear, launched a sockpuppet investigation? Mattlore (talk) 23:52, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Not so much a sock-puppet, more that as soon as one user-name is banned, they register another. Or is that a sock-puppet? A serial pest, definitely. But if you have the time and the inclination, please go ahead... :)  florrie  08:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I found this. Just an idea I'm throwing out there: perhaps as sub-categories of Category:Australian rugby league footballers we can have Category:New Zealand-Australian rugby league footballers and Irish-Australian rugby league footballers as long as there are grounds to do so (i.e. declaring to represent that country via grandparent). If there are no such grounds (i.e. surname alone as the guideline mentions) the categories can be rightfully removed. Little kids who think it's "cool" to make rugby league appear more international than it is by coming along and miscategorizing is just a part of life on wikipedia. We shouldn't let them influence how we operate. We just have to accept that vandalising happens keep removing unverified edits.--Jeff79 (talk) 12:52, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think I'd rather we just accepted that some players will have more than 1 nationality category than create a whole lot more categories for these scenarios. Mattlore (talk) 13:40, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd be far happier with Jeff's original suggestion of categories for players of a national team, Ireland national rugby league footballer or whatever. Definitely not a fan of Irish-Australian rugby league footballers, that would be a minefield, imo. Either the footballer has played for a national team or they are put in the category defined by their nationality. Or both.  florrie  14:58, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree with you florrie. I just think if we stick to the basic tenet of verfiability we can't go wrong. And it seems that's what the guidelines on wikipedia leave it to. I know Mattlore, you'd like to have a solid black & white rule to have written down that we go by, but I think the people going around putting players in stupid categories aren't the types who'd read it anyway. If someone wants to stick a player into the American rugby league footballer (that's to say nationality & occupation) category they're gonna have to have verfiable grounds for doing so or it'll continue to get reverted. Simple. If someone wants to put Tonie Caroll in both Australian and New Zealand categories, I won't revert it because both have verfiable grounds for his inclusion. Pointing to the fact that they played for a nation's team being grounds for nationality won't work if we have the national team player categories. Pretty much as GW outlined above.--Jeff79 (talk) 17:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed on the verifiability point, but I'm confused because two different things are being said. To use the example I used before, Pat Richards, is he:


 * 1) Both an  and an, or;
 * 2) An  (by birth) and an, or;
 * 3) An ?

I understand in all three cases, he'd also be an. GW (talk)  19:24, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd be going with #2 plus the . #1 is no good as there's no grounds for dual nationality. #3 is something I threw up as an idea above but probably isn't necessary. The reason I thought Tonie Carroll would be ok for having both Australian and New Zealand nationality categories is because he was not only born in New Zealand but also (at one stage) declared and played for New Zealand, giving more weight than birth or representation alone.--Jeff79 (talk) 23:26, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with that assessment. Which is why I would like to see the national team categories introduced (where they don't already exist). The dispute seems to be over players such as Jason Stevens who played a game or two for Greece back in the day and on the strength of that are being claimed as Greek rugby league players. Having a Greek granny doesn't make your nationality Greek. So, in this case, Jason Stevens would be:
 * not
 *  florrie  02:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I would support this proposal. I'm just going to raise the concerns I would have. #1 This will create a lot more categories when I thought the point was to stop players being in multiple categories. #2 In the Pat Richards case, why isn't there a case for dual nationality? Isn't he in England playing on his Irish passport so he doesn't fit in the quota system? What decides nationality in this case? Mattlore (talk) 05:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * not
 *  florrie  02:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I would support this proposal. I'm just going to raise the concerns I would have. #1 This will create a lot more categories when I thought the point was to stop players being in multiple categories. #2 In the Pat Richards case, why isn't there a case for dual nationality? Isn't he in England playing on his Irish passport so he doesn't fit in the quota system? What decides nationality in this case? Mattlore (talk) 05:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I would support this proposal. I'm just going to raise the concerns I would have. #1 This will create a lot more categories when I thought the point was to stop players being in multiple categories. #2 In the Pat Richards case, why isn't there a case for dual nationality? Isn't he in England playing on his Irish passport so he doesn't fit in the quota system? What decides nationality in this case? Mattlore (talk) 05:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * 1. Personally I'm not fussed about more categories, but I am fussed about accuracy/verifiability of categories. It will be more accurate to categorise by the team a footballer has played for than by some vague assumption as to heritage.
 * 2. Verifiability. He is Australian by birth. If there is a source that states that Pat now refers to himself as Irish, then he would go in as well as . If he decides to renounce his Australian citizenship, I guess he'd just be Irish!  florrie  07:10, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Right. I'm just a little un-easy about the can of worms that this could open up about nationality - will we have to find an interview source where Willie Mason says he is Australian? (not that that should be hard) Mattlore (talk) 07:53, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Willie has played for Australia, and that is referenced so I'm not sure why we would need another source?  florrie  11:32, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) PS The worms, , , , have been loose for a long time already.  florrie  11:58, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Because I thought we are not using playing for a country as a nationality? He could be "New Zealand rugby league players" and "Australian national rugby league team players" couldn't he? [again not advocating this should be so but devils advocate..] Mattlore (talk) 11:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Definitely. You make a good point. For the approach we've whittled it down to here to work, sources other than representation will have to be found.Jeff79 (talk) 11:48, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, gotcha. Sorry, I was thinking of the playing for Australia category!  florrie  12:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I admit I'm not as familiar with the Pat Richards case as you seem to be. So it looks like there is a case for dual-nationality if you're able to put a mention in of what you just said about his Irish passport and cite it. The passport combined with the represntation is stronger than birth or representation alone. I think either of those two in isolation counts for little, but if you can have a combination of things pointing to a nationality it creates a decent case. I understand your concerns Mattlore about this approach of having to weight evidence up and decide on the balance of things whether dual-nationality exists, but as Florrie says, in the name of accuracy it has to be done. We're all pretty much in agreement that the status quo is unacceptable, as right now we have nationality-occupation categories that are misleadingly overpopulated and some that shouldn't even exist. It seems an RLIF-based approach would allow this to continue.--Jeff79 (talk) 10:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed that #2 should be used. Laura Robson should be used as a GA example from another sport. She was born in Melbourne, moved to Singapore and then her family eventually settled in the United Kingdom. She holds a British passport. Therefore, the categories she's been placed under are, , and . If we were to translate that same approach to someone like Karmichael Hunt, then he's , and then  (plus the Samoan descent). The key is defining the difference between nationality and descent. Are we eventually agreed that these are the final guidelines we should adopt?  GW  (talk)  11:31, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I think I've said my piece and you should start the process of creating the "national rugby league team players" categories. Do we really need the categories of "X rugby league players"? For example Jeff, for the change you just made to Ivan Henjak, you really need a source to say he's Australian :) [I'm not advocating that he should be Croatian and not Australian but more just playing devils advocate a bit to make sure we end up with a system that works] Mattlore (talk) 11:40, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep. Understood. I'll have to work on that. I'm not sure (and will probably have to find a source), but I think if you turn 18 in Australia you have to decide whether you're going to be Australian or not and renounce your previous nationality.Jeff79 (talk) 11:48, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, is Australia one of those countries that doesn't allow dual citizenship? Also sometimes nationality and citizenship aren't the same thing. Mattlore (talk) 11:59, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I couldn't tell you. But one thing I know is that Naming_conventions_(categories) and Categorization_of_people say repeatedly that birthplace is rarely notable (e.g. Bruce Willis).Jeff79 (talk) 12:01, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you can hold a British and Australian passport but a young Indian I work with had to give up his Indian passport when he went for his Australian citizenship/new passport recently.  florrie  12:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah interesting, I don't think the same applies here - but then we're a lot smaller nation. Anyway I think we have a consensus so get cracking! :) I'm off to bed Mattlore (talk) 12:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Request
Request is here.--Jeff79 (talk) 13:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, the vote was for inconsistency to remain. Mind-boggling.--Jeff79 (talk) 22:36, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's ridiculous. At least three people on here have agreed to that move, which matches the three who opposed it on there. GW  (talk)  22:50, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Disappointing, how long until we can ask/appeal again? And less of that referring to rugby league players (or "these people") as "rugby players" or "rugby footballers" please!  LunarLander  //  talk  // 23:27, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Instances of current, 3rd party, published sources referring to rugby league players as "footballers":
 * Southern Hemisphere


 * 2009-07-30 Sydney Morning Herald
 * 2009-08-09 Fiji Times
 * 2009-08-11 Cooma-Monaro Express
 * 2009-08-11 The Herald Sun
 * 2009-08-12 goldcoast.com.au
 * 2009-08-12 nrl.com
 * 2009-09-05 brisbanetimes.com.au
 * 2009-09-26 The Courier Mail
 * 2009-10-04 NZ Herald
 * 2009-10-02 abc.net.au


 * Northern Hemisphere (media, clubs, other):


 * UK media - 9th July 2009 - Rhinos to rampage on - SkySports.com
 * UK media - 28th August 2007 - Fred Hopkin - J Bruce Ismay - Liverpool Echo (a city with two Premier League teams)
 * UK media - 9th January 2009 - Dancing On Ice: Ellery Hanley - Top 10 facts you need to know about the former rugby player - The Mirror (uses "player" and "footballer")
 * UK media - 22nd June 1998 - Brassed off but still unbowed - The Independent (Arts section)
 * UK club - Current page in community section - RL Key Skills - Wakefield Wildcats
 * UK company - 11th May 2009 - Sports bar manufacturer in Super Sponsorship with Rooney - Focused Nutrition
 * UK club - 22nd August 2009 - Whitehead commits to Bulls - Super League Quote from Steve McNamara  LunarLander  //  talk  // 11:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * UK media - not rugby league, but refers to a rugby union "footballer" - The Independent
 * UK media - Jim Challinor - Liverpool Echo
 * UK media - Len Killeen & Doug Laughton - Liverpool Echo
 * UK company (Alibris) - Book about the State of Origin with a synopsis saying "footballers" footballers - Alibris UK

Rugby league by continent
There are a lot of subcategories in the Category:Rugby league. What do you think about creating a new category Rugby league by continent (ordered first) that include the categories Rugby league in Africa, Rugby league in the Americas, Rugby league in Asia, Rugby league in Europe and Rugby league in Oceania. --Puigsacalm (talk) 09:22, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I'm not really feelin it. Category:Rugby league by country works just fine. 'By continent' is a set of categories we can easily skip. --Jeff79 (talk) 13:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Kevin Gordon
im editin Kevin Gordon and there is someone who keesp changing my edits and i dont think he has much knowledge on rugby league and i need help fixing it upYoundbuckerz (talk) 02:27, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've attempted to expand on the descent bit to make it relative to his playing career, which seems to be the other editor's concern. Although it would be much easier, in my opinion, if that bit wasn't included at all unless/if/ever Gordon is actually selected to represent one of the countries - or actually declares he is available for one of them!  florrie  11:27, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I noticed you removed the category:australians of filipino descent but how does he not come under that category his mother is filipino/chinese and nathan fien also has a great grandmother who is born in new zealand and he is under the category:australians of new zealand descent and you also removed that his brother plays in the qld cup well what i was planning to do was put that in a personal section maybe along with his backround as well as to what is done with the willie mason page and it states that willies younger brother rodney also plays rugby league so should i leave the page as it is or make changes i would also like others opinions on thisYoundbuckerz (talk) 09:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The reference stated that Gordon's mother was born in the Philippines but travelled to Australia on a Chinese passport. You don't know if his mother was ever considered a Filipina or not. That is why I removed the category Australians of Filipino descent - because you don't know that - you are assuming it. It isn't mentioned in the reference. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  10:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Josh McGuire- Samoan
Can anyone confirm whether he is Samoan? and is eligible to represent Samoa because on NRLs polynesian player page on bebo he is listed as Australian/Samoan or will i just have to wait until i can find news article or something about him that states that he is Samoan.Youndbuckerz (talk) 10:52, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You need a reliable source, as always. Bebo is a blog, not a reliable source. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  11:00, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Well one thing that could prove that he is samoan is his tattoo if anyone can find an image of him on google or something you will see his tat124.184.190.112 (talk) 08:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyone can get a tattoo. Find a reliable source. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  10:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

1982 Kangaroo Tour of Great Britain and France
We're getting some traction now in the series on Kangaroo Tours and this one is now fleshed out a bit more. 1) Could one of my northern colleagues have a look at the GB Test line-ups and see who can be linked. 2) I've re-used the bones of this one and wonder I can get some opinion on whether it should be redirected to the tour article or left to stand alone.- Sticks  66  13:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * List of players for the Great Britain national rugby league team can help with the linking. Also I guess those two should be merged. Perhaps The Invincibles could remain as a section of the tour article with all the existing links leading to it.--Jeff79 (talk) 13:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree the two articles should be merged because they are about the same tour. Also, the NSW & QLD flags by the players are pretty indistinguishable - is there anything we could do to make the two stand out more? Mattlore (talk) 22:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Player nationality
Sheesh.....enough already. How about writing articles. Say, players' actual achievements rather than theories about who they might be eligible to play for if they were ever asked/picked- Sticks  66  13:37, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * What if you get a player like Luke Ricketson he is under the category:australian rugby league player and category:irish rugby league players why i think i should have edited the category by countries they are eligible for is so that it is easier to find players who are eligible for certain countries and just say tim mannah was selected for lebanon then he would be under the category:lebanese rugby league players, category:australian rugby league players, category:lebanon national rugby league team players and it saves me from having to do it later and also other sports have players who are eligible listed under the category of which countries there backrounds are from.Youndbuckerz (talk) 12:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Luke Ricketson shouldn't have been in Irish rugby league players category. Duly removed. The Mannahs will never be in the category for Lebanese rugby league players for one very simple reason: They are not Lebanese. This has all been covered in previous discussions. Please go back and have a good read. For all our sakes.--Jeff79 (talk) 13:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I should also note that there are also alot of other players who categorised in that way. Anyone willing to help remove them?Youndbuckerz (talk) 10:41, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

So far i have removed Daryl Millard, Wes Naiqama from the fijian rugby league players. But what about where you have a player like Hazem El Masri who is born in Lebanon and moved to Australia would you then remove the category:lebanese rugby league players? sounds pretty stupid to me i would have categorised them by all countries they are eligible to represent as long as there is sources to back it up but anyway its not up to me and i cant edit that way so what should i do in the case of players like hazem el masri, petero civoniceva, willie mason, benji marshall and a heap more?Youndbuckerz (talk) 06:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Birth in and reprepresentation of (not eligibility to represent) a country creates a stronger case for incluison in its category than birth or representation alone. All been said before. Again, please read above discussion.--Jeff79 (talk) 07:51, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

NRL Finals being shown in USA
On SpikeTV i need help editing the rugby league section here is a source if needed .203.51.52.160 (talk) 11:32, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

GAN backlog reduction - Sports and recreation
As you may know, we currently have 400 good article nominations, with a large number of them being in the sports and recreation section. As such, the waiting time for this is especially long, much longer than it should be. As a result of this, I am asking each sports-related WikiProject to review two or three of these nominations. If this is abided by, then the backlog should be cleared quite quickly. Some projects nominate a lot but don't review, or vice-versa, and following this should help to provide a balance and make the waiting time much smaller so that our articles can actually get reviewed! Wizardman 23:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

NRLUS website hacked
the NRLUS website has been hacked so i dont know if it would be a good source any more.Youndbuckerz (talk) 09:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the cache, it was still up and running on 3rd September, so it's most likely a short-term security issue, which is hardly rare on the Internet. GW  (talk)  11:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Rugby league players by descent
I dont know if i have said this before but i was thinking of starting the category:rugby league players by descent e.g. Category:Rugby league players of Tongan descent]] would come under the category:tongan rugby league players and category:rugby league players by descent so it is easier to find players who are of certain backrounds.Youndbuckerz (talk) 09:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you actually read any of the discussions here? <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  09:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's a quote from the guidelines: Generally, this means that the basic criterion for such a category is whether the topic has already been established as academically or culturally significant by external sources. If this criterion has not been met, then the category essentially constitutes original research. ... As well, remember that a category is not automatically a valid substitute for a list — if the category's head article could never be anything more than a bulleted list of individuals who happen to meet the criteria, then a category is not appropriate. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  09:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

LOL in english plz just say yes or no if i can do it or not203.51.52.160 (talk) 10:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

2 Dave Tyrrell pages and cleanup on Sandor Earl
see David Tyrrell (rugby league) and David Tyrell (rugby league) also someone created the Sandor Earl page and it is poorly made.Youndbuckerz (talk) 11:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge has been proposed, you may join the discussion here. You're at liberty to improve Sandor Earl yourself - there is nothing wrong with its notability, nor its verifiability now I've added an EL. You keep racking 'em up, we'll keep knocking 'em down. GW  (talk)  12:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

2010 Transfers
Should we make a list of 2010 transfers or start on 2010 squads for teams who are not in the finals? I have already done the Sydney Roosters.Youndbuckerz (talk) 09:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't those lists go on the season pages? <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  09:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed they do. Just on these 'Player movements' sections, the way they currently appear in the clubs' season articles, it isn't really clear whether, say, they started or departed at the end or beginning of 2008 or 2009. I think these articles should be divided with "Pre-season" and "Post-season" sections, so it's clear when a player's time began or ended with a club. While they may sign the contract during the season, they do continue playing (to me, what really counts here) till the end of the season and don't actually leave till then, so it's best to try to reflect that.--Jeff79 (talk) 09:16, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Bulldogs name
You may know already, but from next year, the Bulldogs will revert back to the Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs. Source http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,25990528-5018866,00.html <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair; white-space:nowrap;">   The Windler      talk   23:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * On revision of the source, they seem to be going to be named Canterbury Bankstown Bulldogs not Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs. <span style="background-color: maroon; color: white;font-family: Trebuchet MS; cursor: crosshair; white-space:nowrap;">   The Windler      talk   23:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Mark Taufua
Mark Taufua page needs to be fixed upYoundbuckerz (talk) 13:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are thousands of articles that need to be "fixed up". Why don't you have a go at fixing this particular one? <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  02:07, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Finals series (again)
Every year this happens, and now some clown's gone and created 2009 NRL Finals Series Results and Stats. Could someone merge it into 2009 NRL season results and create the appropriate re-directs? I would but I don't wanna see the scores!--Jeff79 (talk) 15:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Now there's an excuse to be mischievous! Couldn't find anything that needed saving, so I just turned it into a redirect. GW  (talk)  16:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Origins of Sport
i dont know where to put this on is there a [wp:sports]? but i need help categorising sports and the countries thay originate can anyone help out here?Youndbuckerz (talk) 09:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Categories.--Jeff79 (talk) 14:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Halifax RLFC Academy
I came across the page Halifax RLFC Academy i think it should be deletedYoundbuckerz (talk) 12:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:PROD. I'm not doing it for you, I've better things to be doing. GW  (talk)  13:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Season article names
Wikipedia articles for sports leagues' seasons seem to follow the "[year] [acronym] season" format, except for the NRL's. Therefore, I propose that we re-name all the "New South Wales Rugby (Football) League season 19XX" articles to "19XX NSWR(F)L season" and "National Rugby League season 200X" articles to "200X NRL season" to not only be shorter, and what is more commonly typed as a wikilink, but also to be in line with the way NFL, NHL, NBA and AFL season articles are named.--Jeff79 (talk) 15:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Good suggestion, I support putting the year first on all articles and the NRL acronym would be fine. I'm neutral on changing NSWR(F)L articles to acronyms. I would be against extending this to British pre-Super League seasons.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 15:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed.--Jeff79 (talk) 15:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this has been one of those things on my "to bring up" list. Wikipedia naming conventions say it should be year before event name so we should be following this. Mattlore (talk) 22:14, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah agreed, also with the Dally M Awards pages for each year I wanted to create Dally M Awards 2009 starting with 2009 but since the rest were the other way I kept it the same. -- sss333  (talk) 02:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In line with this, I suppose people here won't mind if I move all the 2009 club season articles for the Super League into the format "[year] [club] [season]"? Wigan Warriors 2009 -> 2009 Wigan Warriors season, for example. GW  (talk)  10:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Fine by me. I've been making such moves for a while already.--Jeff79 (talk) 11:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Being put to a vote here.--Jeff79 (talk) 19:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I thought you were moving things nicely. Was there a challenge to one of the moves? <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  02:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Y'know when for some reason you just can't move one so need an admin's help? So I had to put the request in for that.--Jeff79 (talk) 04:04, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Template:Infobox rugby league super league biography
- curious. Created by Lando09 a few days ago and now on articles such as Mark Riddell and Amos Roberts. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  17:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh dear. Well spotted Florrie. Turns out that was just the tip of the iceberg.--Jeff79 (talk) 18:13, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing it's a revisit from a former member. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  18:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The edit-warring would suggest as much. Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy.--Jeff79 (talk) 18:52, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Would someone get an admin request so a bot can undo it all? I did the last one :P --Jeff79 (talk) 19:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

See Templates_for_deletion. Removing photo captions and pushing for "current club" and "club number" fields on Super League players. Coincidence?--Jeff79 (talk) 22:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I have requested the advice of ThaddeusB, an admin who appears to be interested in bot requests. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  05:00, 21 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Reply from ThaddeusB:
 * First, make sure he has stopped doing this so he doesn't create anymore work to be undone.
 * Second, it is probably easier to undo all the changes using AWB that write a bot for such a specialized task. If you need help undoing them after the TfD closes, let me know, and I'll lend a hand.


 * <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  23:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

He's back again
Looks like we'd better take care of this. Both have a penchant for making (identical) widespread, undiscussed changes to rugby league biography infoboxes then edit warring over them, plus the obvious similarity in name and behaviour (i.e. feigned innocence and total disregard for the fact they're going to be caught). So... Instead of improving articles like normal, I've started a case for eventually adding to Sockpuppet_investigations. Man it's so complicated to go put these things together though! Don't remember it being this hard last time.--Jeff79 (talk) 23:11, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Using my time and energy to build a case

 * User:Lando09 removing the photo caption from an Infobox rugby league biography and adding "current club" and "club number" fields as well as edit-warring over it
 * User:Londo06 removing the photo caption from an Infobox rugby league biography (as himself and as a sockpuppet ) before edit-warring over it, and arguing for the inclusion of "current club" and "club number" fields . It should be noted that User:Londo06, User:CorleoneSerpicoMontana, User:Alexsanderson83 and User:Fronsdorf were all found to be the same person.
 * Me mentioning the connection to Londo06 as a sockpuppet and six minutes later:
 * Previous case: Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Fronsdorf

There seems to be some confusion over my name; it is Lando not Londo. Lando09 (talk) 23:17, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure I chose the name Lando before you did that sir. All I wanted was the squad numbers to appear on Super League player pages. Geez I thought this was the internet, not your intranet. Perhaps wikipedia is the laughing stock that the general consensus seem to think it is. Lando09 (talk) 23:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Now at Sockpuppet investigations/Londo06.--Jeff79 (talk) 16:01, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Helpful of them. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  23:07, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Archives
I don't know how to make links to recent archives like Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby league/Archive 17 appear in the list at the top of this page.--Jeff79 (talk) 17:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The list at the top is a transclusion of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby league/header, which is updated manually. GW  (talk)  22:41, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

DW Stadium
Just a notice that the rugby league article, DW Stadium, has passed its GA review. GW (talk)  10:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well done GW  LunarLander  //  talk  // 15:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I missed this annoucnement! Congratulations :) <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  12:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Publishing fixtures
Forgive me if this has been discussed here before, i have searched the archives for this topic with no results. If i have missed something, please point me in the right direction.

There has been discussion on my talk page, both here and here about the legality of publishing Super League Europe fixtures on Wikipedia, and i would like the opinions of others on this. Please note that this is only regarding fixtures, i.e. games that have not yet been played, as opposed to results of games that have already been played. Questions: What do people think? Julianhall (talk) 11:16, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Can we publish Super League Europe fixtures here on Wikipedia?
 * 2) If the answer to the previous question is "no", can we publish information about when rounds will be held without specific details of the fixtures and venues (as we do, for instance, here)?
 * 3) Would the RFL be likely to oppose fixtures being published here?
 * If it is clearly copyrighted, then I'd say "no", don't use it. Have you asked for an opinion at WP:COPYRIGHT? There's also what Wikipedia is not - including in there somewhere about not being a directory. I've often wondered how we get away with publishing NRL fixtures rather than simply results. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  23:26, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * From the RFL website's T&C:
 * All copyright, trademarks and all other intellectual property rights in all Content shall at all times remain vested in RFL and its licensors. You are permitted to use this Content only as expressly authorised in writing by RFL, its licensors or in accordance with these terms and conditions of use. You must not and agree not to assist or facilitate any third party to copy, reproduce, repurpose, transmit, distribute, commercially exploit or create derivative works except as permitted by these terms and conditions of use.
 * Now, unless someone here has written to the RFL on behalf of Wikipedia (Dear Lord, I hope not...) I'd say we're are not at liberty to publish fixtures, even under fair use. As Florrie mentions, it's also questionable by our own standards whether we should publish them anyway. GW  (talk)  09:33, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised you're all investing this much energy towards this when it's only going to be very temporary and more than half of New Zealand's rugby league team of the century and almost all rugby league tours are red links.--Jeff79 (talk) 09:42, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Florrie, Ginger Warrior - thanks for your input. No, i've not asked for opinion at WP:COPYRIGHT, i thought i'd ask here first. To be honest, i think that there's enough here to agree that we don't publish fixtures, and anyone querying this in future can be directed to this section. If they wish to take it further, they can approach WP:COPYRIGHT for opinion, but this is enough for me. Julianhall (talk) 10:52, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Nationality take 2,745,594,302
Special:Contributions/121.217.119.29 is rather annoying tonight. Nationality does not equal descent, international team or anything else but nationality. Mattlore (talk) 10:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking that maybe we could do something similar in all of the 2009 squads to what is done with the St Helens RLFC 2009 squad where it has listed all of the countries they are eligible to represent and at the bottom of the 2009 squad list there is a list of players and how they are eligible to represent that country and i dont want anyone going out and deleting my stuff because it takes really long to re do it.Youndbuckerz (talk) 10:33, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I just reverted your edits to the team lists at Sydney Roosters and Brisbane Broncos. If you mean this type of table, I don't see the improvement. The St Helens table is cumbersome, space-chewing and contains information that can be obtained from the player pages (height/weight, former club). You appear to want to show an icon for every country that a player could possibly represent. As you have been advised repeatedly on previous occasions, if you can properly reference these claims, put them on the player pages. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  00:18, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah but i have to spend ages typing all this shit up and just get it deleted!Youndbuckerz (talk) 01:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Then discuss it first! You opened a discussion here but made your changes before anyone had a chance to comment. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  05:01, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * For me it can only be the country the play for, or the country the have declared for (along with a reliable source). Everyone else should have their country of birth. Lando09 (talk) 17:48, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Squad numbers for european based players
Can I have assistance for the addition of squad numbers to the preferred infobox. I understand that a few people have been a little bit miffed in being bypassed, simply a case of me not understanding how to incorporate the material to allow for the squad numbers to show on those players playing in the northern hemisphere. Many thanks in advance. Lando09 (talk) 17:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There truly is no limit to your idiocy is there?--Jeff79 (talk) 17:55, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Little bit harsh, just asking for assistance with the addition of material to european based rugby league players. I find it a tad uncalled for to call that idiocy. Lando09 (talk) 18:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh! You were just "asking for assistance"? Oops! I'm sorry "fella". I stand corrected! (when is he going to be dealt with again?)--Jeff79 (talk) 18:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The best option - as you know - is to bring the suggestion here and see if we can find WP:CONSENSUS, one way or the other. Given your history  on the project and the mammoth amount of time-wasting you caused, it's not surprising that it has been difficult to display any good faith. <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  02:18, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I apologise for the addition of material through the 'extra' infobox, as stated previously I didn't know a way to incorporate that information into the existing infobox. I would very much appreciate any assistance with regards to the addition of squad numbers for Super League players. Many thanks in anticipation. Lando09 (talk) 18:30, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not convinced that the effort-benefit ratio makes this addition worth it. The effort could require edits of up to 350 (25 first tier playersx14 clubs) player articles per season, before editing transfers and players from outside the top 25 making an appearance. A squad number can be almost worthless to know. It could tell you if someone had made the first team squad or was one of the first choice starting 13 but that information is not clearly conveyed just by sticking the number in the infobox. That's why I prefer the suggestion to include it as part of the body text about a player's career progress.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 19:26, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

2009 NRL Grand Final
Some have thoroughly edited this article so it will hopefully get put on ITN on the main page. If anyone has any pics or any other info that should be included your contribution would be appreciated. We still need to write about the entertainment and the line-ups when they are announced. --Thatsgold (talk) 08:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Australian Aboriginal rugby league players
what should the category be called for the australian aboriginal national rugby league team because they are called the indigenous dreamtime or something?Youndbuckerz (talk) 10:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Indigenous Australian rugby league team? <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  12:48, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * well there's a question on what the team's page name should be called (here) and the category should have the same name - sss333  (talk) 04:12, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Using sponsored names as article titles
Just wondering what the consensus is on using the sponsored names for article titles? ie: Co-operative Championship.Bongomanrae (talk) 06:52, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally I'd rather have articles under the competition name rather than the sponsored name, same as with grounds. The Telstra Premiership is under XXXX NRL season etc, with a redirect from Telstra Premiership. The Toyota Cup is under the National Youth Competition (rugby league). I'm not sure why the Co-operative Championship isn't just titled Rugby League Championship with a re-direct from Co-operative Championship. But maybe it isn't as cut and dried as it seems? <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  09:47, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that Rugby League Championship would be better than using the sponsor. Rugby Football League Championship used to be called Rugby League Championship and a lot of links still go to it from there. If they could be corrected to go to the main title, Co-operative Championship could be replaced.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 18:19, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I know they're not rugby league competitions, but the Magners League and Guinness Premiership for example are almost never referred to as anything else, so in some cases the sponsor's name is best. I can't say I'm steadfast on one way or the other. My general feeling is that it'd be nice to go with non-sponsored names in article titles though.--Jeff79 (talk) 20:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)