Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby league/Archive 18

Article for deletion/Shayne Hayne
Just to note this article is up for deletion, have added a keep vote... Dean B (talk) 20:46, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * here is an old version which was speedied in 2007 for referencing. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:57, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Rugby league in fr.wikipedia
Hi (sorry for my english), it's soon the Four Nations. In France, we are very glad to participate to this prestigious tournament. Even if our national team have some difficulties, I hope a good performance thank to Catalans Dragons. I write or translate some articles like Brisbane Broncos, Glebe District Rugby League Football Club or Saison 2009 des Dragons Catalans. So, I'd like know what are the articles that the projet rugby league wants in priority, around the national teams, so what are the articles that I can translate. I can help you (if you write french for a translation and work together). In France, it's very difficult for the rugby league to be in medias 'cause the story in France and the place of the rugby union, but I've good relations on fr.wp with rugbyman union (I write "Saison 2008-2009 du Club sportif Bourgoin-Jallieu rugby", I like union too) but now I want to shed new light on rugby league. Thanks.--Chaps the idol (talk) 23:54, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I suppose the priorities would be the national articles - Australia national rugby league team, New Zealand national rugby league team etc.  florrie  12:20, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Use Google Translate Youndbuckerz (talk) 09:21, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "Wikipedia consensus is that an unedited machine translation, left as a Wikipedia article, is worse than nothing". GW  (talk)  12:35, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Something quite amusing I saw... (informal)
Anyone seen the new, official Gillette Four Nations website, launched by the boffins at Red Hall? Any Aussies present may wish to view their own club's profile. You may notice it sounds somewhat familiar. In fact, it's exactly the same at the introduction on the Wikipedia article, Australia national rugby league team. Either they copied it (which of course, is nothing illegal), or both the authors clearly have identical cognitive processes. The same, by the way, is true for the English, New Zealand and French teams. (Although I'd point out the French head coach information is wrong&mdash;it's Bobbie Goulding.)

In all seriousness, the fact they've copied information from these articles without even checking basic facts shows one thing: articles covered by WP:RL are trusted for their reliability, even if they are presumed to be reliable by perception rather than reality. That in itself should remind us of two other things: that firstly the work each and everyone of us does is a useful and much-needed contribution to the project, but also that other people are relying on our standards in order to produce good articles.

So really, we can give a collective pat on the back, and sum that up in one sentence: Well done, and keep up the good work! GW (talk)  20:01, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * In a way I agree, but really this just reaffirms the disappointment we probably all feel about the game's administrators and proves that they are in fact, lazy halfwits. The greatest game of all deserves far better than a website clearly slapped together in a matter of minutes.--Jeff79 (talk) 20:26, 10 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I certainly admire your positive outlook, Ginger, but the pessimist in me agrees with Jeff. Lazy. :) I suppose we can be thankful that they didn't c&p a vandalised version! At least the coach profiles look like original (though tabloid) copy.  florrie  01:39, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

International selection from non first-grade teams
The issue of non first-grade level players being selected for national teams and the use of the infobox has risen once more. Dominique Peyroux has played two games for the Cook Islands and was selected while contracted to the Gold Coast Titans NYC team. No doubt there will be further articles created for now-representative players who haven't played at first-grade level. Currently, if a player is selected for representative football, then the club they are playing with at the time, even if lower-grade, is listed in the infobox. See for example Elton Rasmussen, Robin Gourley and then those such as Ryan Mulligan who played for an amateur team when selected for a national team.

Concerns have been raised by editors so I thought it might be better to discuss it here.

(I gave up trying to find the discussions in the archive. They are tainted in many ways, anyway. Jeff has current guidelines] on his user page.)  florrie  03:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In the Dominique Peyroux example, my preference would be for it to read "Gold Coast Titans 0 0 0 0 0" which indicates he is contracted to the club but he has not played in any first grade matches for them. I do not think we should be using Toyota Cup stats in infoboxes...for anyone. Mattlore (talk) 04:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I also lean this way. It solves the problem of having club football that corresponds with the rep. football, without breaking the "top-level stats only in the infobox" rule.--Jeff79 (talk) 04:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Match boxes improvement
Anyone fancy a discussion on improving the two templates below and the consistency of their use on RL articles? Some of the things to do and talk about are: discuss the merits of all the various pieces of information that might be catered for; how to display the different pieces of information (e.g. position, symbols); how to code them (e.g. ifs, fields for each piece or groups of info); making the two templates as similar as is appropriate ; create documentation with examples of best practice. I've started off with a few ideas at Template talk:Rugbyleaguebox collapsible.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 00:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Rugbyleaguebox RLB
 * Rugbyleaguebox_collapsible RBLC


 * I hadn't noticed this template in use before but I found something similar on the State of Origin pages. I'm not a fan but I can see how it seems to work for games such as Origin or Test series. Did you want discussion here or at the template talk page?  florrie  01:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you've found RLB on the SoO games, as you say it is useful for those and tests. It is widespread, on rugby league articles.
 * Detailed discussion on this template's talk page please.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 11:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * When I made RLBC, I basically copied RLB and made it collapsible. There shouldn't be any significant difference in editing the both of them, in case the discussion results in any changes. GW  (talk)  01:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're right GW. I've seen one small difference in RLBC; it has separate fields for 'location' and 'stadium'. RLB has just 'stadium' but people tend to stick the location into the same field with it when using it.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 11:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

2009 European Cup Top point/try scorers
could someone add up the points/try scorers for the 2009 European CupYoundbuckerz (talk) 09:26, 6 November 2009 (UTC) and make sure its right also for the Pacific Cup as well.

NRL Grand Final articles
Looks like the 2009 NRL Grand Final article is here to stay. I guess I don't really mind so much. In this discussion it was decided that whole seasons should only be covered by season articles and season results articles, but it looks like a third 'grand final' article is going to be created from here on in. I'm not going to argue. But I think 2008 seems like a random and arbitrary date to start splitting them from. I say it makes much more sense to do so from the 1998 season onwards, as this was the NRL's first season. Although this will leave most season's main articles pretty thin on content, I am working on beefing these up little by little. I definitely do not support splitting grand finals away from pre-NRL season articles however. These should all remain as one article. On main season articles I suggest a match summary format like the ones you see on World Cup articles that just show date, score, venue, scorers, etc. with a "main article" linking to the grand final article. Thoughts?--Jeff79 (talk) 04:33, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say just let them naturally evolve. Rather than splitting all 1998 to present articles now just split them into GF pages once/if the finals article gets too big. I could see arguments for some notable pre-98 GF's, like 1989, to have there own article, if anybody ever wanted to take on that project. Mattlore (talk) 05:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think the 2008 or 2009 season articles were too long just because they included grand final details. Article length is not what's driving these splits (just look at the Super League seasons). And having one format for one season but a different format for another with no apparent pattern would be a messy way to do things. At one point the 1972 NSWRFL Grand Final was a stand alone article simply because someone decided to create it, but as consensus then was to have everything in just one article it was quickly merged, and rightly so. I was happy with the grand finals staying in the season articles, but there is a push for them to be split. I think the justification of the person who created the 2009 Grand Final article was that they could get it into the "in the news" part of the main Wikipedia page. Not a bad idea. What we have to decide is what point we want to start separating the grand finals from. The British game has them split from Super League onwards and I just think it makes sense for the Australasian game to mirror that.--Jeff79 (talk) 16:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Sydney Roosters
Can people have a look at the constant addition of the famous fans. It's unencyclopedic to say the least, hard to work out who is more important, etc, etc, and it will wind up in FAR again if this carries on  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) (help the Invincibles Featured topic drive) 05:52, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You'll have to elaborate on "it's unencyclopedic". As for working out "who is more important" I can only presume you mean who is notable enough to go on the list. That's pretty simple. Wikipedia's notability guidelines can decide that for us. If they don't have an article, they don't go on the list. Easy. But since you deleted the entire list rather than anyone without an article yet, your case seems to rest wholly on the part about a list of notable supporters not being encyclopedic. I don't see why it isn't. It certainly enriches these sections entitled "Supporters" that otherwise just have info about trends in match attendance or what section of the crowd supporter groups might stand in. You'll note that 100% of the names listed were supported by reliable third-party references. No one on the lists is/was involved with the club, or even rugby league in any way as there would be the strong possibility of bias in their team of choice. Similarly, I removed politicians such as the mayor of Brisbane from the notable Broncos supporters list, as its safe to assume any city's mayor would pronounce themselves fans of the local team. If these problems weren't already solved, I could see what you mean about being unencyclopedic. You made a comment when deleting it that you thought the list would spiral out of control, reaching "hundreds". The list of Roosters supporters is at 10. How about we start worrying when it reaches 20? And even if that happens (unlikely), instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, just put a cap on the number of supporters allowed in the list and discuss (or just let article length decide) who gets listed on the talk page. Is it the fact that it's a bullet point list rather than a list in a sentence? I need help in understanding what the problem is.--Jeff79 (talk) 15:15, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The only thing I'd say is that lists in general are uncyclopaedic, especially when they can be presented in alternative formats. There is nothing preventing someone from putting this information into words and a paragraph in the "Supporters" section. As for notability, Wikipedia's core policies do that bit for us. There's not even a debate to be had there. GW  (talk)  18:30, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally I'm not really a fan of lists of famous fans, but if it was written in prose then it would be a lot more palatable. If it is a list then it needs to have a clear criteria of who is included, you've suggested something like "People who are notable to have their own wikipedia page and are fans of a certain rugby league club but are not involved in local politics or rugby league already"? Mattlore (talk) 21:53, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

World Club Challenge winner navbox templates
Put up (and rightly so in my opinion) for deletion. Vote here.--Jeff79 (talk) 10:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Why don't we make a collapsible template for players with multiple final winning templates? Because if your opposition to them is inspired by visual nightmares like this, then I agree, it needs sorting. But there's more constructive ways around it. GW  (talk)  13:09, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * More the fact that they will be almost perfect reproductions of grand final winning team templates. But yeah, there's a thing you can do where all the navbox templates are put into one and you can click show/hide, like this. But even if we do that, I still say WCC winning squad templates shouldn't exist.--Jeff79 (talk) 03:56, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * there already is one Template:Navboxes -- sss333  (talk) 08:03, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

"Kwai Nyu"
Does "Kwai Nyu" mean anything to anyone here? (This related AfD and the fact that that article was later recreated as an earlier version, since deleted, of "Kwai Nyu" make it look very dodgy to me.) -- Hoary (talk) 10:45, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Never heard of it. Results from google only include youtube and facebook, but nothing in news or books. Seems like a joke.--Jeff79 (talk) 11:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. You do not surprise me. -- Hoary (talk) 16:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

2010 squads discussion reply
In case it has been missed because it's an old discussion I've replied to with templates for squad lists. A couple of examples here: User:LunarLander/Match.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 22:56, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * User:LunarLander/Template - this is the box that lists the players
 * User:LunarLander/Rugby league squad player - this is the player template I made for it based on Rugby league squad player (which doesn't work with User:LunarLander/Template) but you could just enter free text instead if you wanted into User:LunarLander/Template.
 * I thought I had replied, sorry. Browser must have messed up. Anyways, I complimented the templates, especially the way you've used another template to make the original adaptable depending on whether it's used for an Australian or English team, and the three-column template in particular. My only criticism was the categorisation of players into "backs" and "forwards". When a team sheet is read, it's easy to categorise (1-7 backs, 8-13 forwards, rest interchanges). But when you look at something on a year-wide basis, how do categorise when someone has played at, for example, centre (3+4) and second-row (11+12) at various points in the season? For that reason, I'd stick to the table I've made in 2009 Wigan Warriors season, but this template is still very much preferential to those currently used on club articles, Wigan Warriors for example. It could also be used in a club season article. The Leeds Rhinos example you've used would fit quite nicely into a new section on the SL Grand Final, like the Steelers article has for the Super Bowl with a roster showing their final team. GW  (talk)  00:06, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the compliments! A fair point on the backs/forwards lists, I can change those to something like 'left' (currently 'back'), 'centre' (currently 'forward'), 'right' (currently 'other' for the third column) or whatever. Most of the headings can be customised or omitted too. For the various positions people play, User:LunarLander/Rugby league squad player will now let you enter up to six positions for a player (more can be added easily).
 * The Super League example ordered by squad number.
 * The NRL example which can be ordered by surname.
 * For the club season articles that have dedicated editors entering detailed information e.g. 2009 Wigan Warriors season, this new template is not needed. But it would be good for a club's main article and international competition articles too, I think.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 02:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I've created a new category for various squad related templates I've found while looking around: Category:Rugby league squad templates.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 02:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I've just had a sqizz at and wondered why you have included flag icons when the issue of nationality flags is one of the main reasons we are looking at a new template? I'd definitely prefer not to see any provision for flags. Do "c" for captain and "vc" for vice captain need to be explained in a legend? I like the look of your sample 2009 England squad but without the icons and legend. Cheers,  florrie  02:36, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Florrie, the templates are now live at Rls and Rls player - but they're the same as you've seen. My thinking throughout was to have enough flexibility to cope with whatever might be needed of it. I think most problems will disappear when best practice is agreed upon (with examples provided on the template documentation and in practice uniformly on articles). The fields that allow icons simply won't be included, even unused, on articles once the template is rolled out. I expect editors will simply follow what is set out, and if they don't we will have agreed standards to point to and revert.
 * Re. the legend, I believe most editors of club pages will expect to be able to enter their team's captain- although I'm not certain vc needs to be retained. I believe the legend should stay, especially as it would just be blank space otherwise in the coaching column; there is also an 'other' field on Rls player that would work with optional additional legend fields should the need arise.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 03:39, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, in my experience, if the option is there for flag icons, then it will be used, as in the current template. I'll stick to my bare-bones version until it's nutted out some more.  florrie  05:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject activity
How many editors are there remaining on this WikiProject? Given, there's currently no rugby league matches to commentate on, but as editors our role is not simply to parrot the news in our own words, it's to improve the scope and quality of rugby league articles.

It may sound strange for someone to be this personal on Wikipedia, but it feels lonely here. I can't contribute as much as I could three months ago because of starting university, but from what I still see, there's no collaboration amongst project members here any more. As a result, the quality of articles is being diluted as lay-persons take a more dominant role in editing rugby league articles as opposed to regular editors who are familiar with the MoS.

For example, on a WikiProject with more members, maybe someone would have realised I was no longer able to complete my work on 2009 Wigan Warriors season, but that I'd laid the groundwork for others to do so. It pains me to see that article incomplete and knowing I just don't have the energy or time to complete it and put it through the GA process, but also that the WikiProject I've done that work for can't come in and help collectively.

In order to establish how many editors actually remain, can we please update the participants list? Maybe those who are left can think of intuitive ways of raising people's enthusiasm on this project. GW (talk)  00:25, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't mind that; but I personally am in an anti-Wikipedia and anti-rugby league mode at the moment, I still regularly observe but edit rarely, but I am slowly getting back up there with edits, but just not to rugby league. Note that rugby league isn't the most popular sport in the world, and outside of Australia and New Zealand, and to an extent England, it isn't extremely well known and therefore editors to the rugby league cause are always going to be low, especially during the off season.    The Windler      talk   07:52, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well it has been 2 and a half years since our last, and only (I think), roll call -- sss333  (talk) 00:09, 29 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm only checking in occasionally at the moment as there is a lot happening that is more important than Wikipedia. Sorry I can't help with your Wigan article.  florrie  07:17, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I feel similar to Florrie. Life moves on and my reduced Wiki time gets shared between RU and Aust military matters with RL running 3rd. In any case my edits always veer toward RL matters of history and discussions about Player Nationality flags or arguments about the notability of some bloke who's played half a season just leave me cold. But I'm sure the project will rise again when the feeling is right and a when bunch of editors come together who respect each other and who enjoy the banter. - Sticks  66  09:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it seems we lose not only our best players to union, but Wikipedia editors as well! :P --Jeff79 (talk) 15:39, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I didn't mean to sound as though I was having a whine about no-one contributing to my own little project, I was just interested to understand why the strength of the WikiProject seems to dropping. If it's just fatigue, there's nothing that can be done. However, I still want to update the members list. If no-one objects, I'll follow the military history WikiProject's example. Firstly, I'll split the actives from the non-actives. I'll look at members' contributions. Depending on their recent history (three months) of contributions, I'll sort them into either of the two sections. I'm generally impatient, so I'll proceed immediately. Revert if you have any problems. GW  (talk)  16:01, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, there's still some stylistic things I'd like to do to the list, but the essentials are done. I've established which editors have contributed in the past three months, on this page and on articles covered by the WikiProject, and separated them accordingly:
 *  Active : 14;
 *  Semi-active : 19;
 *  Non-active : 83
 * I'm gonna work on ways of making the WikiProject more collaborative. If you guys aren't interested, that's fine, but there's enough active members there and the proportion of inactive members is alarming. Any ideas would be appreciated. GW  (talk)  21:42, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "Interest" didn't come into my reply. It might be best not to alienate those who still do have some interest even though their time is limited! Remember it's the off season, the project always runs low from October to February/March.  florrie  02:24, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I know its not essential but are you going to keep a list of members with thier cap numbers, because that was one thing that every member was able to keep even if they left the project, and it has been there since pretty much the start of the project-- sss333  (talk) 00:11, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * That's not what I meant, Florrie. Having just been through every participant's edit history, I know you're still interested. Sss333, I just put them lazily in alphabetical order, but if cap numbers are important, I'll place them back to their old names. Cap numbers aren't a big thing here, so I didn't think twice (I'm not even sure England RL keeps cap numbers, come to think of it). GW  (talk)  14:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

2010 Squads
Do you think its an appropriate time to be adding the 2010 squads to NRL Teams pages and Super League teams pages?Youndbuckerz (talk) 11:25, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No.  florrie  15:11, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not until squads are confirmed and most signings/transfers are completed which probably won't be until pre-season starts. Mattlore (talk) 21:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Why do we have "2009 squad" lists anyway? They aren't contextual, and are far more applicable to their respective 2009 season articles. "Current squad" would be far better, and remove the national flags, WP:MOSFLAG. GW  (talk)  22:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep. I'd like to see the same on other club pages.  florrie  09:17, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My 2 cents: I find that in many (actually almost all) ways, American sports wikiprojects are far more developed than anyone else's and I often look to them for inspiration and ideas. Look at the Oakland Raiders article for example. Not unlike theirs I think each club should have a section "Players" and beneath that two subsections: "Current roster" (which in the case of the NRL should have the 25 numbered players to be paid under the salary cap with any additions differentiated somehow) and "Notable players" (which should be some kind of hall of fame, and/or lists of members of a national hall of fame, award winners, etc. and perhaps a list of captains as well).--Jeff79 (talk) 01:00, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * what about when players from outside the top 25 play for the team, it would definitely be mentioned on the season page but should it also go somewhere in the players section on the main page? also on a side note someone re-added the Notable supporters setion on the raiders page, should it be there? -- sss333  (talk) 02:06, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree Jeff, I do like the NFL pages. The problem is that I dont think the 25 man squads are ever released by the NRL in any official capacity? I certainty didn't see them this year when I was having a look around. Its not like the NFL where the rosters are governed quite strictly. And also, numbering the squad 1-25 creates problem. Much easier to just have a numberless squad of ~25 based on the what you can work out is the official squad and who has played that season so far. Mattlore (talk) 03:19, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Should NYC Squads be included as well?Youndbuckerz (talk) 09:23, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I re-introduced the notable fans, but 100% are cited (please delete any that are not) and it helps with the "Supporters" sections which I think are worthwhile but are usually quite thin on content. Maybe the 25 numbers won't have to be assigned to individuals, but there should be a list of 25 if possible, perhaps just listed alphabetically. And as I stated above, additional players from outside the top 25 (WHO ACTUALLY RUN ON AND PLAY ONLY!) should certainly be tacked on to the list somehwere, with an explanation. I think mentioning the 25 is important as it ties in with the info on the NRL article about the salary cap.--Jeff79 (talk) 10:17, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I did up a template for the Wests Tigers using the Oakland Raiders template as a base. The players are listed alphabetically, there are no nationality flags and the only other info is positional and debut round. I've also included coaches, update date and source. What do you think? More info needed?  florrie  02:46, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's perfect. More information tends to create confusion rather than clarity in this case.Doctorhawkes (talk) 05:48, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I had another fiddle: I did add some more info: not selected (Tigers had two players named in the original top 25 who did not play at all), from ESL (to cover Gareth Ellis) and you could do a "club debut" as opposed to "NRL debut" for club transfers.  florrie  03:20, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, its pretty good. Maybe less information than more if anything - just italic and no dates for debut/rookies perhaps? - but most clubs won't need the 'from ESL' category anyway so its no big deal. Mattlore (talk) 11:21, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've restored the earlier version for comparison. I design systems so I do tend to over-think stuff. Can we keep the debut round though? I see it as sort of a visual indication of injuries in the team.  florrie  11:56, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, I probably prefer the second one after seeing them like that :) Mattlore (talk) 12:02, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Another thing - I originally imagined this template as one that would be updated from year to year, but in order for a copy of one year's template to remain on the season page, we'd need to create a new template for the next year. So it 'should display as XXXXX 2009 Squad rather that XXXXX Current Squad. Does that make sense?  florrie  12:00, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe the players should be under sub-headings for thier positions like in the Oakland Raiders so there dosen't need to be two brackets next to a player for a round debut, i just personally don't like all those brackets -- sss333  (talk) 05:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem with sub-headings is that players do move around. We'd have editors moving players from week to week depending on if they were played at full-back, wing, centre, half etc. Or if someone started on the bench and then played at hooker and second-row. There's now a version with less parentheses.  florrie  05:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Can I just pop in here and contribute that this should be nowhere near as complicated for the Super League? Given the difference in squad numbers between both hemispheres, I'd think it appropriate I get to work on a separate template for the European league (one without wild an unverified claims to Afro-Caribbean descendency). GW  (talk)  12:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * We can't do just the one? What do you need to do differently? <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  15:23, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * European teams have squad numbers, and lists are usually ordered as such. Therefore, there's absolutely no need for us to arrange alphabetically, or by positions since we already have a method of listing them (especially when the latter is subjective anyway). If you can find a way of hiding squad numbers for Australian teams, whilst including them for European teams, then yes, we can put them both into the same template. Seems unnecessarily complex though. GW  (talk)  16:15, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * So the squad numbers are important? Sorry, based on previous discussions I thought they weren't important, more recently the discussion up there a bit. When teams are listed here - week by week - they are given positionally but the complete squad list, as on club pages, is usually listed alphabetically. Cheers, <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  02:18, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Just did a check on all fourteen Super League clubs on how they arrange their full first team profiles:
 * Bradford - Alphabetical
 * Castleford - Squad no.
 * Catalans - Alphabetical
 * Celtic - Squad no.
 * Harlequins RL - Alphabetical
 * Huddersfield - Squad no.
 * Hull FC - Squad no.
 * Hull KR - Squad no.
 * Leeds - Alphabetical
 * Salford - Squad no.
 * St Helens - Squad no.
 * Wakefield - Squad no.
 * Warrington - Alphabetical
 * Wigan - Squad no.
 * So a bit of a mix really but most websites going for squad numbers. When teams are listed for each match it's listed in position though, so for example, even though Cameron Phelps is #21 he's still read out first at full-back. GW  (talk)  12:42, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * He's #21 but fullback? How do folk know that then if they aren't familiar with the players? Just curious, doesn't affect your format! Cheers, <span style="background:white;color:darkorange;font-family:tahoma;font-size:10px;letter-spacing:2px;border:1px dotted darkorange"> florrie  01:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Based on discussions above (Jeff - Oakland, GW - Super League, Florrie - NRL, etc.) I've knocked up a couple of templates. It has less permanent symbols than Florrie's but is similar and keeps the text formatting hidden away more. A couple of examples here: User:LunarLander/Match. It could be used on Super League, NRL, international squads etc. (if enough people like it as I realise there are a few ideas floating around). Some finishing touches are needed but the basic concept is there.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 21:44, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * User:LunarLander/Template - this is the box that lists the players
 * User:LunarLander/Rugby league squad player - this is the player template I made for it based on Rugby league squad player (which doesn't work with it) but you could just enter free text instead if you wanted into User:LunarLander/Template.


 * I really like those templates LunarLandar. Any chance you can build these in Live? We really need the templates for squads as the 2010 squads are now being officially announced by some clubs. I also agree with comments further up that by using these templates we use a new one for each years squad. Comfort In Sound  13:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

NRL Independendent Commission?
i dont know what this article means but someone put it in the NRL page in a way that would sound better than mine becausei have no idea what it is talking about 22:36, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


 * When it happens someone will. As well as National Rugby League, articles on Super League war (aftermath section), Australian Rugby League and possibly affiliated state leagues need to be updated.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 16:04, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Sam Smith (rugby league)
The following was originally posted at WP:EAR. I wonder if anyone has time to look into this?

I have read the article about Sam Smith (Rugby League player) the article is completely wrong about Sam's history. I was a personal friend of Sam, and played amateur rugby league with him, in the 1947/48 era. He lived in Woodhouse Street in Hull, and played initially as an amateur for East Hull, and then later for a club called Alexandra. He was then signed as a professional by Hull Kingston Rovers, and from there was capped for Great Britain and was part of the World cup winning team. He worked as a docker in Hull, and died very prematurely. I have no recollection of him playing for any team other than Hull Kingston Rovers. I know he lent his world cup winning medals to a friend - who lost them !! I knew the family well, and it grieves me to see his history so very wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.195.1.252 (talk) 12:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bring this to our attention. I have posted your concerns at the talk page for the Rugby league project as folks there will have access to sources and be able to correct this information. I can't find much online but i don't really know much about the sport. Wikipedia relies on verifiable sourcing for its artciles.  I agree that the artcile in question is poorly sourced. Jezhotwells (talk) 12:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've just glanced at Hull KR: A Centenary History 1883-1983 by Michael Ulyatt. On p59 it says a Sam Smith was transferred to Hunslet in the 1953/4 season. I'll add what else I find.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 22:39, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've made additions to the article.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 00:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

UK club history section titles
I've noticed that many clubs have sections called "Super League era" or in the case of Salford, a club that has been in and out of Super League, "European Super League". I propose that they are all changed to "Summer era". This name holds true, I think, despite some lower pro leagues playing in winter in the past during this summer era. Any thoughts?  LunarLander  //  talk  // 22:19, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. It was just a convenient way to divide the history up into sections but as you say "summer era" probably does make more sense (and IIRC I did use it with the smaller clubs).GordyB (talk) 18:05, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I came here after seeing one of these changes as to me that section title is meaningless to those outside the Rugby League world. You need to come up with something that is generally understandable or at least define what it means in a linked article somewhere. Keith D (talk)
 * Good point, I've added and adapted the first paragraphs of those sections.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 12:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Ideas for the project and its participation
I've done a couple of things already:
 * I've applied for us to have a list of popular pages compiled monthly - see section above. Example: WikiProject Ohio/Popular pages.
 * I've asked User:Legoktm on his bot's talk page (User talk:Legobot) to create a watchlist for the whole RL project as has been done for WP:CFL (see here: Special:RecentChangesLinked/Wikipedia:WikiProject Canadian football/Articles). The operator of the bot is going to be inactive until January so hopefully it will be set up then to.
 * I've altered the wording on the WikiProject Rugby league project banner slightly to include a invitation to join us. A lot of other projects have similar messages, it can't do any harm.
 * I've added a signature inviting people to get involved with the RL project on my RL forum accounts and provided a link to the discussion page. Maybe others with accounts will do the same.

A couple of other ideas, please comment and/or add your own:
 * Add our own version of WikiProject Ohio/Tabs to the top of each RL project page.
 * I'm also planning on going ahead with the recruitment threads on rugby league forums that I suggested a while ago.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 17:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Good suggestions, and I look forward to the popular pages addition. For the tabs, I'm not too keen. I think we'd do much better if we kept to the sidebar on the main page, but we could improve it. I have a couple of suggestions:
 * I'd keep sidebar on the main page too, just add the tabs to that page and others at the top to aid navigation to the most important project pages which we can't do with the big sidebar.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 22:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've created a tabs bar at WikiProject Rugby league/Header and put it on the pages it links to minus the project page, assessment page and peer review page as they have the sidebar on and minus the portal because that isn't a project page. There are hopefully a couple of additions to come (popular pages and recent changes).  LunarLander  //  talk  // 22:54, 15 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I like the look of something like this. Bit of light-hearted fun, except RL is nowhere near as stat-obsessed as cricket;
 * I like this idea, it's another way to help drawing people in and retaining them. Having looked at the AFL version as well as the cricket I think we could have some fun with a RL quiz. Some of the questions I've read show I lot of thought going in to them...or a lot of yearbook reading!  LunarLander  //  talk  // 04:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * When updating the participants list, I noticed a lot of editors target stubs, particularly player bios. This fits in with the Windler's philosophy that as Wikipedia faces inevitable contraction, stubs will be targeted for deletion. Personally, I couldn't stand that kind of work, but if others enjoy it, perhaps we could make a task force for this. GW  (talk)  21:34, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Instead of a task force going off somewhere, perhaps bring in/back collaboration of the week/fortnight. It could mainly be for groups of stub articles at a time, keeping general COTW discussion on this page because we don't have too much going on here and it might bring greater traffic to this page. Sometimes it could switch to topical collaborations e.g. if there is a World Cup on then all World Cup articles are the collaboration.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 22:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * But then some stub collaboration might be hard depending on differing access to sources.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 22:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * To be fair, the whole stub idea may be irrelevant because stub rugby league articles can be compiled into a list with little effort anyway. In fact, here's the link from the main page: . I'd welcome COTW though, if enough editors contributed to make it a collaboration. GW  (talk)  22:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Plus participants might agree it would be an idea to start up a list of x open tasks like many projects have.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 01:50, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Another possibility is a featured topic drive. Manpower may be an issue though, so it's probably best to agree to open tasks. GW  (talk)  02:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I've changed the header at the top of this page to incorporate the project's to do list.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 19:23, 15 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I've made a further change to WikiProject Rugby league project banner. It now uses File:Rugby P icon.png as the portal icon rather than default jigsaw piece. If anyone has another idea for an icon that looks OK at that size, please suggest it!  LunarLander  //  talk  // 01:50, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Number of club infoboxes
There are a lot of club infoboxes out there (Infobox rugby league club, Infobox rugby league team, Infobox nrl club, Infobox esl club, Infobox defunct rl club). User:Thumperward recently redirected Infobox rugby league team and Infobox esl club into Infobox rugby league club but I reverted one of those as it was full of different and British fields. We should probably work out a unified version or standardise the look as much as possible.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 19:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * see here -- sss333  (talk) 23:59, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Just a quick head's up.
I wonder who this could be?--Jeff79 (talk) 09:58, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Lets see Londo06, CorleoneSerpicoMontana, Alexsanderson83, Mortonstalker, Noq and Lando09 and probably more -- sss333  (talk) 00:12, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Popular pages
I have requested that this project be provided with traffic stats on the most popular pages within the scope of this project by User:Mr.Z-bot. If approved, it should show the top 500 here in a month or so. It should be a useful tool in helping decide on which pages to spend the most time.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 16:03, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It looks like the application has been accepted as it appears on this list (alphabetical order). Based on other projects I'd expect to see out list of popular pages appear on the 1st January.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 23:35, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I wonder if the info will be skewed by all the visits by editors like us. For example, Lists that we edit little by little, making hundreds of visits, would have high traffic that's 99% wikiproject members and 1% non-members.--Jeff79 (talk) 04:28, 24 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it's possible at the lower end. Rugby League gets around 1000 hits a day so many shouldn't be too susceptible to being skewed - we'll see!  LunarLander  //  talk  // 15:17, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Crusaders players
Should the Category:Celtic Crusaders players be changed to Category:Crusaders Rugby League players?Youndbuckerz (talk) 22:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It probably should be moved, yes. Mattlore (talk) 22:57, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, as should anything to do with "Celtic Crusaders". GW  (talk)  23:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Same goes for all Bulldogs related articles and categories.--Jeff79 (talk) 03:43, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Footballers → players
I have proposed renaming Category:Rugby league footballers to Category:Rugby league players.

See the discussion at Categories for discussion/Log/2010 January 5, where I hope that members of this project will offer their views. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:13, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the notification.
 * FAO project members: The previous project discussion on categories is here: Archive 17#Player categories. Within that discussion are some gathered links here which were preparation for a request for all RL categories to be switched from 'players' to 'footballers'.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 18:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

The following link is a search for all categories whose title includes the phrase "rugby league footballers"
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=1&search=intitle%3Arugby+league+footballers&fulltext=Search&ns14=1&title=Special%3ASearch&advanced=1&fulltext=Advanced+search

Hope this helps. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:50, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Category:Male rugby footballers
FYI: proposal to delete Category:Male rugby footballers and its sub-categories. See Categories for discussion/Log/2010 January 7. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 04:12, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Infobox width
In Owen Craigie's infobox, why is the the gap between his position and the label "Position" so small (affording more space for club names)? This is what I think all infoboxes should be like, but I can't figure out how to duplicate it.--Jeff79 (talk) 17:44, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I assume it's something to do with the use of in the list of his clubs. I expect it would be pretty simple to change the infobox template to treat all club names entered like this.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 20:39, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Quality assessment
Since bringing the To do list back into use the project has managed to clear the 2-300 RL articles that had no quality assessment. To everyone involved: great work! A special mention has to go to Ymron who I've seen wading through a lot of them, nice effort there.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 18:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Much appreciated Lunar.


 * Thanks,


 * Ymron (talk) 19:37, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Outline of rugby league
This post in a nutshell: Be aware rugby league now has an outline in draft ready for development at some point.

Apparently outlines are the next big thing so I have started one at WikiProject Outline of Knowledge/Drafts/Outline of rugby league. The idea is that you have a lead paragraph for the subject at the top and then a hierarchy of links acting as a site map to rugby league articles. There is one 'live' sport outline at the moment (Outline of martial arts) and a couple of sports drafts, gridiron football and basketball, that have moved away from the standard template and not got much content, respectively. Martial arts or other topics might be a better guide.
 * Outlines

There is also the following on the Outline WikiProject for starting a new outline:
 * See also: Helpful tips (read it!)
 * First, decide which topic you'd like to outline. It could be as broad as Outline of mathematics, or as narrow as Outline of chocolate and start the page.  The title should be in the format of Outline of $$x$$
 * Write a little introduction before outlining to get warmed up, this will also become the introductory paragraph of the outline.
 * Start listing articles on your topic. You can find them by using Special:PrefixIndex and a site allintitle Google search.
 * Organize links in a way that is accessible so that people can find the articles linked to. You might use an Outline generator template, like this: topic uncapitalized or, if you're outlining a specific country, country name.
 * After that, you can add a few pictures to make the outline look nicer. Try using different ones than the ones on the article by searching on Wikimedia Commons.
 * Once you've finished, take a look back and see if you were able to outline the subject successfully and then post your work here so that other editors are aware it exists and can review it.

 LunarLander  //  talk  // 19:08, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

5000 articles
Over 5000 articles are now supported by this project but many of them are stubs. How about we each nominate some articles that we think are interesting, significant to the sport and that have good sources available on them and then some up with a list of, say, 20 articles to focus on getting to perhaps B-class. If it is successful we will have begun to build a quantity of articles that are ready to be developed for GA, FL and FA reviews. I thought it might be better to aim to get more to an OK level than a few to the best level. Thoughts? Better proposal?  LunarLander  //  talk  // 16:57, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd rather have lots of Bs and GAs than a few FAs, you're right. I'm up for it, university's pretty quiet at the moment. Well, comparitively. Any thoughts on the nominations process? GW  (talk)  17:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Not really. I had a thought that the outcome of the final list should be a range of types of articles (a tour, an administrator, a player...).  LunarLander  //  talk  // 22:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think a good place to start (and one that has a lot of resources available) would be the players/coaches profile stubs. If we all start to focus on a team each and update at least all of the current squad player articles we would see a significant boost. VikingJohn (talk) 09:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I've just remembered that the popular pages list will be available in early February (I was wrong in another topic when I said January) so we'll be able to look at that too soon. With nominations for 20 articles I was thinking that the sports big historical events and people are neglected e.g. the Rorke's Drift Test, 1954 World Cup, hall of famers.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 20:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think we could/should necessarily do it for every current player. Between Super League and the NRL you'd have (30 clubs x 20+ players) 600+ player articles to go at. Even lots of NRL player articles are stubs. You are right that current player articles need attention. Perhaps we could look at current representative players first and see how that goes?


 * This reply is really divided into two:


 * 1) The problem with sports WikiProjects is that they will always have higher proportions of stubs than other WikiProjects such as WP:MILHIST whose scopes are much narrower, more technical, and don't include meaningless biographies on players who've played only a few first-grade games. The Windler can make a FA out of Karmichael Hunt... Tyrone McCarthy, maybe less so. There will come a point where Wikipedia contracts as its focus turns more towards quality than worldwide scope (because eventually, it'll run out of things to make new articles on). The challenge will then be to justify all those stubs inclusions. At some point, the quality of these stubs needs to be addressed more deeply than a sentimental collaboration celebrating an impressive milestone for the WikiProject. Just a thought, but not wanting to stop this attempt, it's a thought I'll leave with you for a later date.
 * 2) Old events may be hard to find reliable sources for, given the lack of documentation at the time. Rugby league is not blessed with the stat-freaks cricket has in abundance, so unless you've got a book, it's pretty difficult. Much harder still to push said article through a GA nomination. I'd advise recent events, such as the Tri/Four Nations. Also, if it's international, we can use sources from both sides of the world (which is preferable because of the mountain of sources in Australia compared to Britain). Another benefit is the opportunity to use a collaboration like this as the foundations of a featured topic on the rugby league Tri-Nations later.
 * I think we're moving towards nominating articles. In which case, I'd nominate:
 * Articles:
 * Rugby League Tri-Nations
 * 1999 Rugby League Tri-Nations
 * 2004 Rugby League Tri-Nations
 * 2005 Rugby League Tri-Nations
 * 2006 Rugby League Tri-Nations
 * Rugby League Four Nations
 * 2009 Rugby League Four Nations
 * Lists:
 * Seperate list articles could be made for each event listing squads, a la 2006 FIFA World Cup squads
 * Leaves a total of 12 articles. GW  (talk)  01:37, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Some old events and people, as noted, may be harder to research so I'll hold off on nominating some of those until I see which have the most available sources. I definitely think some should be included, though, as these are things that are regularly referenced by the sport and its media. There should be something there when people decide to find out about them.  LunarLander  //  talk  // 15:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * On the first part: I'm not celebrating having 5000 articles as a milestone (although it is an impressive number), I'm noting 5000 articles versus low numbers of decent ones. There are many poor quality stubs consisting of just a sentence or two. With few people here, I'm not convinced the best use of our time is working on an article that someone churned out in under a minute.
 * The Tri/Four Nations set is a good idea.

Rugby league quotes
If you know of any good rugby league quotes please reply with them here, it would be good to make some additions to Portal:Rugby league/Selected quote so that the portal has a few more/better ones to rotate. If you could also provide a who when and why and even a link to a source that would be great. I've used Rugby league to get a few but a lot of those are feelings on RU which isn't appropriate for the RL portal.

I've just found "No more bloody bundles for Britain" which is quite funny for the GB/Aus rivalry. After WW2, Australians were sending Bundles for Britain to help with shortages for things such as food. This was the comment given when an Australian saw the size of the British forwards getting off the bus for training in Sydney. Have a read if you like on the third page (Quickview)  LunarLander  //  talk  // 04:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)