Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scottish Islands/Archive 1

Infoboxes
One of the first things I'd suggest is that we get separate infoboxes for the Northern Isles, and those off the West Coast. This is partly cultural - the Hebrides and Isles of the Clyde tend to have Gaidhlig forms of their name, which are still in use, whereas those in the Northern Isles have recently used Norn names and ones in Lallans. The ones in the Clyde and Forth can have both Gaelic and Lallans forms. --MacRusgail 18:54, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
 * We could just adapt the existing infobox so that fields for "Norn", "Gaelic", etc, will only appear if text is entered. I've now set it up so that the "Norse", "Meaning of name", "Population rank" and "Main settlement" fields will only appear if something is entered for them. Warofdreams talk 02:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I prefer the second approach. The recent modification looks good. Thanks. Finavon 07:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. When the infobox was created I made a song and dance about the boat image being appropriate for all four main archipelagos. No-one objected. Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I definitely think the Northern Isles should be calved off. Linguistic and cultural reasons are a major factor. All of the islands off the west coast, from the north of Sutherland, to the Firth of Clyde have accepted Gaidhlig forms - not to mention the fact that it is still a living language in many of them. In the cases where it isn't, like Arran, it was spoken into the 20th century. None of those in Orkney and Shetland do, but they nearly always do have Norn/Shetlandic forms which have been used in the recent past. Also, there is the bugbear of whether the Northern Isles are Scottish or not... but a Northern Isles infobox could make use of the Orcadian and Shetland flags. In the same way that Lallans is pretty much irrelevant to the Hebrides, Gaidhlig is more or less so in the northern isles --MacRusgail 14:14, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * p.s.If the word "Gaelic" appears, it should be prefixed by "Scottish/Scots" - this is a horrible Scottish habit. The Scots seem to think that they're the only county with a Gaelic language, but anyway... Can we get rid of the "Celtic" name bit for the west, and replace it? If the island's name has a P-Celtic origin, then it can be specified separately, but I don't hink that there are that many that do.

I don't think its a question of 'calving off' as deciding whether this is a single project, or two, even three. I believe WarofDreams' amendments to the Infobox mean that where there is no Norse or Gaelic name, the box just ignores the issue. Furthermore, whilst there are few if any Northern Isle names with Gaelic roots, there are of course lots of Hebridean ones with Norse origins. The issue is not what is spoken, but what was spoken and how this created the existing English language name.

I'd be reluctant to start getting into the island flags issues. These are in general rather controversial, and at present Orkney is embarassed as the current flag is causing offence to Norwegian visitors because of its similarity to one used during the Quisling regime. Also, whilst the Northern isles share a common Norse history (shared in part with the Hebrides), Orkney and Shetland are more different from one another in terms of landscape, geology and economy than Shetland is from much of the Hebrides. A fair number of the Orkney articles proudly state that such and such an island is the x largest in Orkney (not the x largest in the Northern Isles). The idea of 'Orkney plus Shetland' is a bit of an abstraction really in my experience.

However, I take your point about about the need for 'Celtic'. So far I've only come across Arran having any possible Brythonic root (and that's dubious), although H-Smith claims Yell and Unst may be of Pictish origin. I'm quite happy to remove it. Not sure why 'Gaelic' is so contentious though. I recognise that in Eire the Gaelic language is known as 'Irish', whilst clearly 'Scots' is a different usage. Somehow reading 'Scottish Gaelic' seems redundant to my eye. The Irish language page says "The language is usually referred to in English as Irish, sometimes as Gaelic, or in general terms as Irish Gaelic when discussing other Goidelic languages." Ben MacDui (Talk) 15:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly - but all of the islands off the west coast have contemporary Gaidhlig names e.g. Creag Ealasaid (Ailsa Craig) - or Hiort for St Kilda. Even those with Norse origins do - Na Hearadh for Harris. The Northern Isles don't have proper Gaidhlig names, except as phonetic renditions (although I gather Stroma has a few Gaidhlig placenames). I agree Orkney + Shetland is an abstraction, but they form a distinct culture region, from being under Norway for so long. I hadn't heard of the Quisling business. Probably quite a few of the islands have some kind of Pictish roots. The etymology of the English name, and the Gaidhlig form should be kept separate, where they are different.


 * "Not sure why 'Gaelic' is so contentious though." - well, if you referred to Lallans as Anglian or Inglis all the time, you'd raise a few eyebrows. It is Scottish Gaelic, which is not the same as Gaelic from Ireland or the Isle of Man. --MacRusgail 19:58, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Watch List
Draft of a page that might be useful to a new Island editor at WikiProject Scottish Islands/Watch List. Comments welcome. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A very useful resource Lurker  (said · done) 15:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Scope
I was wondering whether solely direct articles such as harris or tiree should be part of the project, or if more general articles like History of the Outer Hebrides or Hebridean Myths and Legends would qualify? Or would they be better covered elsewhere?

I think they are definitely relevant. To be honest I hadn't seen the former yet. I'll add them to the list on the main page and watchlist. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Project identification
Would we have/need something similar to the project Scotland box that appears on the Aberdeen talk page? How about a userbox with a category for userpages of contributors? Sorry if these are already out there or in production, but I've not spotted anything.

I think ideally we would have both, but we are only a few days old and they have not yet been attempted. Feel free to cook something up! Ben MacDui (Talk) 11:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I've had a go at the userbox, but something's definitely not right WikiProject_Scottish_Islands/Userbox.

I made the end full stop blue rather than white, which looked better to my eye - but it seems to work OK on my user page. I didn't copy across the 'noinclude' bit. Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC) PS It looks good btw - many thanks for doing this.

population data and rankings
In my quest for consistency I notice:
 * Main List shows population of 1 for: Eilean Donan, Sanda Island, Shuna, Slate Islands, South Rona and Innischonan;
 * Populated Islands shows these without S Rona - pop 2 as 2001 Census paper;

There is probably information since 2001 for some other islands (but incomplete). I suggest using the 2001 figures in the infobox and lists, so that comparison is easy. Subsequent changes can be discussed in the body text. It may be appropriate to state this clearly (? sufficient to mark "Population (2001)" in infobox).

This highlights the exclusion of freshwater islands from the infobox ranking. There are (current count) 97 (not 92) populated islands - the infobox is titled "Scottish Islands", not "offshore" (as in lists). I suggest changing the infobox to 97.

Do we really need the "Freshwater" and "Larger offshore and Populated Islands" tables in List and Populated_Islands or can they be combined? Finavon 10:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yup - well spotted. The main list is in error for Rona, or at least not consistent. We should definitely use the 2001 numbers in the Infobox until a complete official revision is conducted. I have tended to assume that the first standard reference would be sufficient to ensure 2001 was understood, but yes, it might be more obvious if the template were amended.


 * Re offshore/onshore, I think it is more consistent to have 97 and the only reason I have not done this, is because I have not checked if we have any freshwater islands in the region of 40 ha. There is certainly no reason not to combine the two population lists, although on the main list some simple device to identify the freshwater ones (along the lines of the * for estimated areas) might be useful.


 * I'll fix the Rona issue, add 2001 and change 92 to 97 on the infobox template, and then check the areas of the bigger freshwater islands. Assuming this does not throw up any complications, would you be willing to merge the two lists? Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

These estimations are not very exact, and are hampered by the fact that the GRO table makes lamentable errors. For example they have Innischonan at 783 ha when it is more like 7.83, and Inchfad at 103, although it is less than half of that. Freshwater islands >40ha are, I think:
 * Inchmurrin, Loch Lomond 133 ha - GRO est - apparently the largest freshwater island in the British Isles.
 * Inchtavannach, Loch Lomond - 52 ha GRO est.
 * Inchlonaig, Loch Lomond - 77 ha est from OS
 * Moncrieffe, downtown Perth - 46 ha - GRO est
 * St Serf's Inch, Loch Leven, - 41 ha est from OS

The others I estimated (Inchmoan, Inchconan, Innischonan) all at under 40 ha.

Some choices.
 * i) Tell these impudent freshwater islands to find their own WikiProject and rename the Infobox to include the word 'Offshore'.
 * ii) Ignore the issue on the main list (or possibly amend the existing minitable to include the areas of the larger fresh islands), keep the Infobox as is, and add the above islands to the WikiProject islands by area list, and amend the small number (I think about 5) of infoboxes whose rank is affected. In other words the main list keeps fresh and offshore separate, but the Infobox rank is for both fresh and sea.
 * iii) Change the main list to include all freshwater islands greater than 40 ha in size and/or which are inhabited. Amend the infobox ranks as required per (ii)
 * iv) Expunge this dialogue from the records and ignore the issue completely.

Advantages, disadvantages:
 * i) Easy, consistent with the existing main list, but creates clumsy language in the Infobox.
 * ii) More complex, requires the Wikiproject area list to be completed, but keeps the Infobox language clear, both the Wikiproject (area and popn) lists consistent, and gives them a purpose which is different from the main list.
 * iii) Reduces complexity, but mixes up apples and oranges in the main list, and actually reduces the total amount of useful information there.
 * iv) Still a serious contender as it involves no serious effort, up until the point at which I hit the 'save' button. Thereafter not really an option.

I favour (ii) on balance. Ben MacDui (Talk) 14:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Populated lists combined, replacing group with Local Authority (not sure about adding back in L.Lomond etc); Infoboxes re-numbered and total in template changed to 97. These changes are self-contained and leave it open to stop or repeat with main list. I think we should continue and have also added the areas there (easier to add cells for heights now - will find data). Current arrangement has the disadvantage that population ranking of main list differs from pop list ranking (and infobox). Happy to discuss. Finavon 00:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

First of all, the above comment does not appear on my watch list. This is not the first time, and there's something fishy going on. Secondly - great work on the infobox (I can't keep up!) and population front. I am fine with the main list having offshore and onshore, but the infoboxes using our ranking combining them. With population that's fairly easy to deal with (although there will be some work to do when the next census comes out!). However, we need to decide if we are going to do the same thing with area, which would be consistent. It's a bit more work than population, but in theory when it's done it's done.Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Houss Ness or Symbister- another island?
This may be joined to East Burra by a natural ayre but if its man-made then there is another island of circa 100 ha at OS Grid Ref HU376300. I am trying to find out more about it, not helped on searches by the fact that both Symbister and Ward of Symbister are more prominent places elsewhere in Shetland. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:09, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

According to http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/features/featurefirst6363.html it is actually called 'Houss Ness' and is a 'peninsula which forms the southern half of the island of East Burra in Shetland, Houss Ness lies to the south of Houss. It is separated from the northern part of the island by the isthmus of Ayre Dyke, is 1½ miles (2.5 km) in length but rarely more than a third of a mile (0.5 km) in width. The Ward of Symbister (62m / 203 feet) is its highest point.' www.visitshetland.com also calls it 'a promontory', but I'm not entirely convinced. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:17, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * "Ness" tends to imply a promontory. Maybe one of us needs to dig into a local history book... --MacRusgail 14:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Ness most commonly applies to a headland, such as the "Ness of Sound" or the "Ness of Ireland", etc.... Locally in Shetland "The Ness" or "Da Ness", also refers to the Parish of Dunrossness. Shetlander57 20:35, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Orkney saga
I am off to the Hebrides this weekend for a little field research. On my return I am considering putting List of Orkney islands up for Featured List status. It duplicates some of the information in the main list, but as it includes details of half a dozen extra islands, and lists about 100 additional holms and skerries, I think its worth a try. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The Orkneyinga Saga is also a very good source for the Norse names. I intend to put the list here, so it can be used... --MacRusgail 14:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Loch Maree
Grid Ref NG920722 suggests there is at least one and possibly three freshwater islands greater than 40 ha.

Initial guestimates are:


 * Eilean Ruairidh Mòr about 45 ha & 51 metres high
 * Garbh Eilean – very difficult to measure, but about 65 ha? 25 metres high
 * Eilean Sùbhainn also difficult to measure – say 102 ha. 31 metres high.

--Ben MacDui (Talk) 14:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Innis Mhor
Just back from the west and bumped into Innis Mhor en route. NH846864 north east of Tain. Its a large tidal sand dune. Difficult to measure, but might conceivably be about 40 ha. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sand dunes are notoriously difficult to measure, as they come and go very quickly. Innis Mhòr is probably the remnant of an older island. --MacRusgail 16:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

There was an Innis Beag, (possibly aka Paterson Island) just to the south east, which seems to have joined up with the mainland, but Innis Mhor has been around since the seventies at least. My rough estimate is that it is about 35 ha, which is convenient. I'll add it to the list of smaller islands. Ben MacDui (Talk) 16:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The name innis hints that it might be an old island. Innis tends to refer to smaller islands/islets, but also appears in older placenames. Dogger Bank was once supposed to be a large island as well. --MacRusgail 14:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

No longer Scottish
I notice that the Infobox no longer states 'Scottish island of'. One the one hand this avoids the clumsy 'Scottish island of St Kilda, Scotland' but it begs the question - what are the ranks measuring? Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's an improvement. There's also the tautology of "Scottish Island of Inch/Innis/Eilean etc", and "Scottish Island of X Holm/Skerry/Stack" etc

Assessment
This now appears on the project page navigation template. It is under construction and whilst I am enjoying the research I may be wading a little out of my depth.

In theory typing on a talk page will produce a banner, and allow for an assessment. However as yet there are neither suitable categories nor the assessment tabulation. WP:IS/A is the shortcut to the ultimate location of this. My main concern is that I have no idea how the system creates the tabulation, and I can't really experiment until the system is created. Nor do I know if this will prove to be a useful guide to progress or just more computing for its own sake. We shall see. Comment is, as ever, most welcome. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Somewhat to my surprise this actually seems to be working. The above assessment table now includes six articles I tagged. The only glitch seems to be that the unassessed and no-importance article was not picked up by the bot. (Fixed). Hopefully there will not be too many of these anyway. I imagine you are all at least as knowledgeable about how the system works as I am but here are a few 'thinking aloud' suggestions.

I've made some additions and changes, largely by copying and pasting from the Wikiproject:Scotland assessment page. It needs some cleaning up, but that can wait until I've made myself some lunch (unless someone else does it!) Lurker  (said · done) 11:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Great work - many thanks. Ben MacDui (Talk) 12:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

There's a list of participants on the project page- we have 3 so far. Anyone wishing to regularly assess island articles should add their name. Lurker (said · done) 12:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

As always there are exceptions to this rule, e.g. Iona is quite a small island, but it surely must be one of the most important of the Hebrides in terms of ecclesiastical history. Islands such as Gigha, Eigg and Rum punch above their weight, because of their history in conservation and estate buy-outs. The likes of Ailsa Craig, Muckle Flugga, Rockall, Keith Inch (most easterly part of mainland Scotland, a former island) and the Bass Rock also have historical, cultural and geographical importance despite being relatively small. --MacRusgail 15:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I find quality a lot harder to quantify. That is why I have put many into the "start" class if they are of a reasonable length and/or have pictures and some kind of references. You might want to look at these to reassess. --MacRusgail 15:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC) p.s. Can someone go through the top twenty by size, and by population, and add them to "top"? I have tagged lots of islands. I have tended to put the ones at "top" which are important to mini-archipelagos.

Happy to, although I am struggling to keep on top of events at present and it might not be this week. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC) Done. PS Deliberately left Lewis and Harris as 'High' as Lewis and Harris are I think of a higher priority.


 * I can see your logic. We should probably treat Lewis and Harris as separate islands, because that's how people have always seen them - the fact that they are one island, is one of these bizarre "technicalities". Besides which, their culture and even geology is subtly different. I'm going to treat tidal islands as true islands, just for the sake of convenience (although of course, part of the time they are). I have blitzed through hundreds of articles, adding the WPSI tag to them, just to get it over and done with. It at least gives us an idea of scale. --MacRusgail 16:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * p.s. when things are ironed out, Lewis and Harris can probably be listed separately (in brackets) in various lists, with some kind of note.

This is a herculean effort my friend. There are about a third of the number of bannered articles that WP Scotland has accumulated!. My only concern is that as a result you may need new spectacles. Raasay is 19th in area rank. Rousay is 23rd, but surely deserving of its 'Top' status. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think Rousay gets in at no. 20 according to Haswell-Smith's list (table 2) - that's what I was going by, rather than the one here. His book has to be our "Bible" despite the occasional mistakes in it. --MacRusgail 15:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

A Bible it certainly is, but like all such, it can be interpreted. It's not his mistakes, it's his definition. According to H-Smith, Skye is not an island, nor South Uist, nor Baleshare or South Ronaldsay. Hence the rather over-elaborate mention of definitions at e.g. List of islands of Scotland. The discussion began there at Talk:List of islands of Scotland. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

List of UK locations
The following is a list of prefixes common in Scottish island names. There are plenty of red links in many of them, and in some cases, the names appear to be duplicates but given slightly different co-ordinates.


 * List of United Kingdom locations: Ca-Cap (Calf)
 * List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_Ef-El (Eilean)
 * List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_Ho-Hoo (Holm)
 * List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_I (Innis, Inch-, & Insh Island)
 * List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_I (Isle, Island)
 * List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_Sg-Sh (Sgeir)
 * List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_Si-Sm (Skerry)
 * List_of_United_Kingdom_locations:_Sq-Stap (Stac, Stack)

--MacRusgail 18:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Island settlements
The following are red linked settlements in the Orkney and Shetland footers - --MacRusgail 16:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Shetland - Gutcher, Symbister, Toft, Shetland, Ulsta
 * Orkney - Balfour, Houton, Lyness


 * Stubs for Shetland settlements created. Please take a look and add to them if you can. Lurker  (said · done) 15:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * And the same for the Orkney ones Lurker  (said · done) 18:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Great. Perhaps a list of the largest settlements on islands could be made as well. Which is the largest? Kirkwall? Stornoway? Rothesay? Lerwick? --MacRusgail 15:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Soay Sauce
The Soay articles need tidying up. As I understand it, there are two main Soays, including Soay, St Kilda, but there are also Soay Mòr and Soay Beag without articles...

Probably what needs to be done is a main disambiguation page and the other articles created/moved to appropriate titles. --MacRusgail 16:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

That would be swell. Ben MacDui (Talk) 21:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I've created these articles, contributions very welcome. In particular, a Gaelic name for West Loch Tarbert (where Soays Mor and Beag are located) would be useful. Anyone? Lurker (said · done) 13:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The OS maps have the sea loch named "Loch A Siar" - I assume that's the Gaelic name. Also, I note that the OS maps label the islands as Sòdhaigh Mòr and Sòdhaigh Beag - I don't know if that's a more official / common Gaelic spelling. --Vclaw 17:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll let someone who speaks Gaelic sort that one out. Lurker  (said · done) 17:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest "Sòdhaigh" - "oai" is not really a proper vowel combination in Gaidhlig, I'm sure an Siarach will concur. The sea loch should really be "Loch-a-Siar" I think, but the OS still doesn't get everything right (its Gaelic spelling - both Scottish and Irish - has improved immensely). The page "Soay" itself should be a disambiguation page. --MacRusgail 15:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Scottish Islands project
Great idea for a project. I edit them some because I study the geology a bit, but dang, I really don't know anything about them outside of their incredibly fascinating geology. I'm going to unwatch list all of mine, knowing they've moved on to more competent hands. Thanks for starting the project. KP Botany 02:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * However, it would be nice to have someone helping out who knows a little about geology (mine really stopped with Geography Higher!!!) --MacRusgail 16:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps KP Botany can be tempted back into the fold. In the meantime I have a few reference books if need be. (Plus of course personal contact with some of the protagonists. I fear Schiehallion has become uppity of late since that chap Maskelyne gave him airs above his station, but I am on good terms with most of the island hills). Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Orkneyinga Saga
The following are names taken from the maps in J. Anderson's edition of the Orkneyinga Saga pub 1981, facsimile of 1873 edition. Pub James Thin and Mercat Press.

(reedited - moved most contents to WikiProject Scottish Islands/Orkneyinga Saga created by Ben MacDui)

--MacRusgail 16:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I have added this valuable information to a new page, WikiProject Scottish Islands/Orkneyinga Saga accessible from the Project navigation template. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:13, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

There is one small issue though - which is about "ð" (eth) - this is represented by "d" on the map, and I have susbtituted eth where I felt appropriate. It really needs a Norse scholar to have a look at it, but this is highly useful for Norse names. For later Norn versions of the names see here - some changes, e.g. "øy" is used rather than "ey". --MacRusgail 15:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Counties
Counties containing significant island areas, pre-1975, post-1975 (contemporary regions different again)

Pre-1975 Ross & Cromarty, Inverness shire, Argyllshire, Bute, Ayrshire, Zetland, Orkney

(Minor - East Lothian, Fife, Caithness)

Former regions (Minor - Lothian (East Lothian) + Fife)
 * Highland Region - Districts - Skye & Lochalsh, Lochaber; Orkney, Shetland
 * Strathclyde - Argyll & Bute, Cunningham
 * Western Isles

Comments? --MacRusgail 16:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Linga and Shiva's penis
I have been working on a complete list of Linga/Lingay, most of which can be found at Linga (disambiguation) and its associated talk page. There are far too many of them in Shetland, and I would appreciate if people could disentangle which are which, and their co-ordinates.

Unfortunately "Linga" itself is a redirect page to Shiva's penis ("lingam"), and so the list of islands by area has a link to this, and doesn't disambiguate which it is. I know gods are supposed to have massive attributes, but I don't think this is what is being referred to here. --MacRusgail 15:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Lady Grange
James Erskine, Lord Grange (1679-1784) was supposed to have abandoned his wife (Lady Grange - Rachel Chiesley) on the Monach Isles between 1732 and 1734, and then sent her to Hirta. She eventually ended up on Skye somewhere. This was supposedly because she had overheard Jacobite conspirators in Edinburgh, and her husband and a friend got rid of her by sending her to these remote places. He also held a "funeral" for her in Edinburgh. Haswell-Smith and Collins Encyclopedia of Scotland reference these events, but I cannot find anything on it in the Monach article and couldn't track it down on the St Kilda one. She was supposed to have had her own house on Hirta, but wasn't a fan of the place.

Anyone else heard this story, or know where in Skye she ended up in old age (with dementia no less). --MacRusgail 16:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

There was already a brief mention at St Kilda referring to the Collins Encyclopedia. I believe she is supposed to have had three funerals, but I can't recall where I saw that snippet. Ben MacDui (Talk) 20:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I added something, but I think it should be probably placed together. The St Kilda article didn't mention she'd been on the Monachs for 2 years, which probably prepared her a bit. --MacRusgail 20:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll look at it again tomorrow. Ben MacDui

According to this she died near Dunvegan. She really could do with an article all to herself. She surely had a notable, if unhappy life. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The ODNB has a very useful article on her. Your local library card will probably give you access: . Warofdreams talk 23:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Skildar
The GA review suggested that "the article include the present name of "Skildar, the old name for an island much nearer the west coast of the Outer Hebrides." from the 'Origin of name' section." The reference is from Maclean (1977) who I fear is occasionally slap-dash. The only 'hit' I have been able to find so far is this JSTOR link, which I don't have access to. Any further suggestions gratefully received. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Scottish Island stub?
I was thinking originally more along the lines of a geo-stub, but I thought it would be useful if a Scottish island stub could be set up. Obviously the Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland geo-stubs would be subdivisions of this, but it would be useful for freshwater islands, non-geographical topics, and islands in places such as Highland region, the Forth and Clyde... --MacRusgail 15:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I can't think of any objection to the idea, although I have never myself used the individual types of stub for anything. It would clearly be quite a lot of work to add them in but if you are so inspired please feel free, (unless anyone else can come up with a reason not to). Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Shetlopedia
Can I draw your attention to Shetlopedia. This is a Shetland wiki, and therefore copyright free, so I am going to try and pinch tonnes of material from there!!! --MacRusgail 03:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC) p.s. http://shetlopedia.com/St_Ninian%27s_Isle <- this article has some lovely pictures, which we could do with!!!


 * Great find MacRusgail! I've created a template to add to the bottom of articles incorporating Shetlopedia text: just add From Shetlopedia to the article, and From Shetlopedia talk to the talk page. For usage instructions, see the template pages. Lurker  (said · done) 14:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Some of the articles are copies/doubles of wikipedia material, and some of the stuff, such as street names etc, needs to be delinked because of local interest... however, the bad side of Shetlopedia is that the website seems to be down frequently. Presumably they have some kind of bandwidth allocation --MacRusgail 23:22, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This is indeed a good connection - and unless I am much mistaken they have also been borrowing from us. I like the template idea too, although I am working on something that will be 'in part based on' rather than wholly attributable to Shetlopedia. Ben MacDui (Talk) 11:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The template didn't work, as shetlopedia names its articles differently from wikipedia (it doesn't have "wiki" in the URL). I've made a new template, which also uses the wording incorporates text from rather than based on. It can be found at Shetlopedia. Lurker  (said · done) 14:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Islands in River Forth
Many maps seem to show a sizable island in the Forth (before it becomes the Firth) just south of Alloa. Some maps seem to show two in this position. One map here shows the location as just "Inch" with one island. --MacRusgail 01:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ordinance Survey "getamap" is much better, and lists "Tullibody Inch" and "Inch" (the latter with a farm) at this location. --MacRusgail 01:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Dab pages
I have been slapping 'NA' i.e. non-article importance on these. I believe this is standard wiki-practcie, but maybe the work involved in some of them e.g. Linga suggest they could have an article-type importance? Ben MacDui (Talk) 12:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think so- i think the purpose of the rating system is to assess encyclopedia articles. Lurker  (said · done) 14:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I would tend to agree with Lurker, but in the case of something like Linga, there are so many of them!!! --MacRusgail 14:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Should be "class=NA", then no need for importance. Finavon 20:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Newsflash: "Saint Kilda" now condemned to redirect oblivion courtesy of Lurker.

Island of fleas
This is an AFD as far as I'm concerned, but low on my priority list at present. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

No sooner said than done! I wonder what the 'Articles by quality' bot will make of this. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Numbers of Islands
Anyone watching my recent hobby of collecting Shetland skerries may be wondering if I am just making them up. Nonetheless, there are clearly going to be 300 or more when the job is finished, and there must be at least another 100 not identified by the OS. The phrase "Scotland has over 790 offshore islands' on the main List of islands of Scotland was one inherited from some time ago. Does anyone know where it comes from? Of course, any estimate hinges on the definition of 'island' and obviously most of the Shetland skerries are tiny and non-notable in themselves, but nonetheless I am surprised at just how many there are. If anyone was daft enough to try and repeat the task with the Hebrides we might end up with about 1,000 all told. Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The trick is to break them down into smaller groups. That's partly why I concentrated on the Forth, Clyde and Solway Islands first. The other problem is whether tidal islands are islands. But be grateful we're dealing with Scotland's Islands - I read recently that Indonesia has somewhere in the region of 70,000 islands - smoke on that! --MacRusgail 17:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Shiant Isles
Bizarrely, the article Garbh Eilean contained more information about the Shiant group, in general that the article Shiant Isles did. I have tried to move some of the material over, but would appreciate some help. I also created a navigation template. --MacRusgail 17:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Edwin Muir
Can some of you sort this out for me? I have been looking round various references on Edwin Muir's life, and they seem to be divided 50/50 as to whether he was born on Wyre (, Haswell-Smith) or at Deerness on Mainland, Orkney (, Collins Encyclopedia of Scotland). The biographies seem to contradict one another on this. Anyone know what he himself said? --MacRusgail 17:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This source says he was born in Deerness, but moved to Wyre when he was 6. The BBC seems to be the only online source saying he was from Wyre. And I don't trust Haswell-Smith on historical matters, he seems to have swallowed the Zeno map hoax. Lurker  (said · done) 17:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * At least it's not Encyclopedia Mythica, the resource which seems to get all the world's mythologies horribly wrong. H-S, and Collins Encyclopedia both have inaccuracies, which I have picked up on, but they form useful "building blocks" to expand small articles, before primary and secondary sources can be used. --MacRusgail 19:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This would seem to clinch it:
 * Edwin Muir was born in the parish of Deerness on Orkney mainland in 1887. His father was a tenant farmer and moved to the Bu, a farm on the island of Wyre, when Edwin was a few years old. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll have to dig out his autobiography, but I suspect it's Deerness. --MacRusgail 19:14, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The ODNB concurs: "...born on 15 May 1887 at The Folly, Ayre, on the Orkney mainland, the youngest of six children of James Muir (1833–1902), farmer, and his wife, Elizabeth Cormack (1843–1907). Two years later the family moved to the Bu, a 100 acre farm on the small island of Wyre..." Warofdreams talk 21:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Skara Brae
I've put Skara Brae down for this month's collaboration. It is in a sorry state for an article on such an important site. Lurker (said · done) 17:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Racism on Lewis Article
Anyone want to help, I can't revert a 3rd time. Someone keeps adding racist views to the article Lewis (it may be ok to say where the population is from, but the way it is expressed is definitely racist). The user was anonymous then signed in. The same user was responsible for a rather hateful campaign against the way Sundays are on the island. Again, it was the tone rather than the content that was wrong.MRM 20:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know what the figures are, but there are certainly parts of the island's where English people make up a considerable percentage of the population. At least a third on Eigg, and quite a few elsewhere. The biggest problem resulting from this (other than language loss) is a housing shortage, especially when holiday homes are concerned. I suspect the piece is an exaggeration. The Polish remark may be a kneejerk, but certainly they are the biggest mass immigration (in such a short period) that I know of. --MacRusgail 15:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Assynt
Just back from a short trip to see Conival. All went well except that - off in the distance... it would appear to be another tidal island greater than 40 ha.

Oldany Island estimated by Scotgaz at 200 ha, although I'd say it is more like 250. Oh dear. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Oldany is one of the islands I've got on my list to add... --MacRusgail 15:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Oldany Island has now been added. --MacRusgail 18:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Main Page Disinformation
The following appeared on the main page today - pretty picture, but the etymology is horse doo-doo.



"Early morning mist clings to the hills southeast of Ensay, Victoria, Australia. The township is named after the now-unpopulated island of Ensay in the Outer Hebrides of Scotland. "Ensay" is a Gaelic translation for Jesus."

Except that Ensay (or "Easaigh") is definitely not the Gàidhlig for Jesus - it's "Iosa" (as I'm sure An Siarach will back me up on this one) Mac an Tàilleir says it is from the Norse for "ewe island". I have brought this up here -


 * Front page errors here
 * here (image talk)
 * On the editor's page here
 * Here (Ensay, Victoria)
 * And here (Ensay, the island)--MacRusgail 15:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

- Now altered, thanks to me. The sgudail is now gone! We have to keep an eye on this stuff, because it gives wikipedia a bad name. --MacRusgail 15:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Important!- Shetlopedia relicensing
Take a look at this. And Administrators'_noticeboard. Basically, Shetlopedia have relicensed their content. It's now all rights reserved. According to their copyright notice discussion page This is just a response to Shetlopedia being copied page by page onto another website.

This does not affect current Wikipedia articles, as text released under the GFDL is permanently GFDL. But no more grabbing from Shetlopedia, I'm afraid. (Taking from revisons of their articles made before 14 September would technically be legal, but I'd advise against it) Lurker  (said · done) 09:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, if any of you guys have added text from Wikipedia to Shetlopedia (I kept meaning to, but never got round to it- I was distracted by Andy Murray and rare bees), please remove it. And any text you spot on the wiki that they might have taken from here should also be removed. Lurker  (said · done) 10:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)


 * A nuisance, although I understand their Pov. Discussion now continues at Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems. I was hoping to nick an image of Da Horn of Papa, which is clearly Pd-Old. Ben MacDui (Talk) 12:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC) PS Rare bees added to Fauna of Scotland btw.


 * A bit cheeky really since most of their material is filched off wikipedia... and not properly sourced in some cases. That's why I didn't take their pictures. --MacRusgail 19:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Help offer, re. Shetland.
I'm not very good at this, but may learn. I think I may be able to help with some info on Shetland Islands if that can be of any use. What sort of thing do you want to know? I can only supply local knowledge and maybe help with location details, I know very little about facts and figures, but feel free to ask. Shetlander57 21:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I suggest that, if you stick around, people will ask you questions as they come up. Thanks for your offer of help, and welcome to WikiProject Scottish Islands. Feel free to start editing articles, you don't need to be an expert to participate. Lurker  (said · done) 10:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

New 'Discoveries'
Inch and Tullibody Inch, collectively perhaps known as Alloa Inches, are tidal islands at NS 869 917. Mercifully the former and larger is only circa 33 ha. It looks a bit iffy on a map, but aerial photos are quite unequivocal. For photo see Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC) I now notice they appear on the list of freshwater islands. However, they are also tidal. It's an anomaly, and hopefully there are not too many examples. It might be easiest to treat them as freshwater as their location fits into this category more easily. However there may be any number of tidal islands that have a small freshwater stream passing round them at low tide. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)