Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Archive 2009

Henry Allingham
Shouldn't he have a Project tag, since he is prominently mentioned in the Portal? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 09:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. — Rlevse • Talk  • 20:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Scout userbox
Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Scout has been updated. The "member of" section is now a variable, allowing custom use. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  10:53, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I have changed Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Scout-former to exactly the same, including creating a documentation page, although I left the hat image rather than the badge. However perhaps the two can be merged together with an extra parameter for the Scout-former box.


 * Good- now we don't need special templates where we have one or two members of an NSO. It should be possible to merge a number of these templates and use parameters— I will take a look at this when I finish playing with the sidebar. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  23:09, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It was a bit easier than what I anticipated. I wrote the template code so it is fairly obvious how to expand it. WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Scout/testcases is done using the single template at WikiProject Scouting/Userboxes/Scout/sandbox. I have not done anything on the box colors: discuss it on the template talk. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  03:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks good. You are a genius. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  03:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Now with the ability to set a custom NSO name or to customize the entire message, now with free documentation! --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  15:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I do not see any discussion elsewhere. I think this should be put in place now. It is excellent. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:37, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Should we then consider merging other userboxes into this one? It can replace at least twelve of them. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  22:03, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * OK with me.  — Rlevse • Talk  • 22:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I just simplified some code, which involved renaming a parameter. Let me double check this before going live. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  02:09, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

WPScouting Navigation
WPScouting Navigation/sandbox I am updating WPScouting Navigation in the WPScouting Navigation/sandbox. The sandbox version has both the old and new style as I cut and paste. Please comment on the talk page. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  22:01, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the new one, but can live with the old one if the new one doesn't have support.  — Rlevse • Talk  • 22:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There was discussion about updating to Sidebar with collapsible lists a month or so ago and I committed to refreshing it. The new one will be smaller if it is not expanded (I will document that) and can be placed on user pages more readily. It can also be edited more easily by tenderfoot editors. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  22:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Done. please comment or edit as desired. Setting  to   will expand all of the groups, setting it to a groupname such as   will expand only that group. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  21:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

✅ --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  18:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

02 Raffles Scout Group
This article was merged to The Singapore Scout Association and redirected there in July 2006. It has now been recreated, although it is different from the original. I am not sure what to do about it, but I am concerned that it will be precedent for a whole rash of other troop articles in Singapore. The Singapore Scout Association was last year a directory of troops, but they were removed (not by me but I wondering whether to). Since I was the person who did the redirect in 2006, could others look at this. I do not want to give the impression I "own it". -- Bduke   (Discussion)  22:55, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's only claim to fame is the oldest one. It's also a brag article ("Prominent", "dominated competitions" etc). I doubt it'd survived an afd. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 01:37, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I put it up for one. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 07:24, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If one Group gets it's own article, they soon all will as many groups have some "claim to fame". As this is against established procs, I'd agree with AfD - with content being dumped to ScoutWiki if deletion agreed. DiverScout (talk) 13:31, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe it can be merged and redirected to Raffles Institution (Secondary), it probably more notable in the Raffles Institution than in the Singapore Scout Association. --Egel Reaction? 13:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That is a very good idea. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  20:43, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Comparison of Boy Scout Troop Management Software
Useful as this may be, Wikipedia is not a how-to. Can we Scoutwiki this somehow instead? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 11:39, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * See discussion on the article talk page. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  12:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

FAR
nominated Scouting for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. --Eustress (talk) 01:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Will check it out. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 20:48, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

GirlGuiding New Zealand
This article is huge and cumbersome, should it be split? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 09:04, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Better to reduce it to the essentials... --jergen (talk) 10:03, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Jergen. Are the songs copyrighted in a way that we should remove them? That would cut the size down for a start. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  10:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Are the songs essential or notable? The article is long, but not dense; much of it is in list format. The TOC is so long because almost every paragraph is a separate section. Before we cosider a split, it needs a major copyedit. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  11:00, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Did a major cleanup, shortened the TOC, removed badges and songs. Still needs some copyediting. --Egel Reaction? 11:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Homenetmen
Jergen has just copyvio-blanked Homenetmen, in order to bolster his argument for removal of Scouting in Syria. The Homenetmen article has been edited by dozens of users, there is no way the whole article is a copyviolation. Please review. If it was a new article by a single user, then it would be copyvio, this borders on POV. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not attacking Jergen, he's a great editor and usually easy to work with. But twice reverting a new article to redirect without discussion, and then copyvio blanking another article used to bolster the discussion appear to violate WP:POINT. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 05:56, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Have a look at the page from the history tag here. The whole lot has been copied into the article. It is a total copyvio. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  06:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Then it calls for a rewrite, not blanking and possible deletion as an article. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 06:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No, Chris, the copy-vio tag is appropriate as the whole article or very close to it is involved. It allows someone to rewrite it in a sandbox and then ask an admin to put it in place. We are not talking about one paragraph here, where that can just be deleted. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  07:34, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If we can't revert the article to a point before the copyvio, then the tag gets applied. We then have to work through the process to reboot the article. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  12:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Images from the German federal archive
As most of you may know, the German federal archive did upload part of its images to commons. Among the lot are some Scouting images, most from germany, but also from other countries. There is a nice one of Edward VIII (then Prince of Wales), but I did not find a place for it yet: File:Bundesarchiv Bild 102-07754, Prinz of Wales verleiht Preise an Pfadfinder.jpg

Other images include:
 * File:Bundesarchiv Bild 102-09650, Englische Pfadfinderinnen.jpg
 * File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-1982-0706-501, Österreich, Pfadfinder-Treffen.jpg
 * and some in commons:Category:Scouting in Germany and in commons:Category:Deutsche Jugendbewegung.

Perhaps some of these images can be of use. --jergen (talk) 11:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

National Organization of Russian Scouts (Scouts-in-Exile)
Can admins and others please take a look at this? New users are edit-warring, saying we should be hands-off when they make unWiki-like edits. Please see the talk page. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 18:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * SPA sockpuppets are also vandalizing my userpage, not a coincidence, their only edits are those two. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 20:05, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I have started a dialog at User talk:Beetlejuice 87. This appears to be a new editor who needs guidance and a bit of handholding. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  21:13, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I Semi-prot'd the page. If it is socking, see WP:SPI (the new SSP/RFCU) <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Scouting WP invite
Scouting WP invite has been updated:

--—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  21:11, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Scouting Ireland
There is an edit war going on about whether WOSM affiliation of this association covers the whole of Ireland or the republic only. This is unscout-like. I have removed all reference to WOSM until such time as a decent reference is given and I have fully protected the article for now. See Talk:Scouting Ireland and the talk pages of the two editors involved. Please keep an eye on it as I will be off wiki for a while. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Joy, THE TROUBLES come to Scouting. Good call Bduke. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:37, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It may be spreading to Scouting in Northern Ireland. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:39, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You have my full support Bduke.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:51, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I think this matter is resolved now and I have unprotected the article. Any further intrusion of "THE TROUBLES" will of course lead me to come down like a ton of bricks on the unfortunate editor who tries it on -:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bduke (talk • contribs)

Change from "Scouting in ..." to "Scouting and Guiding in ..."
Last autumn, we started a discussion on the possible renaming of all articles titled "Scouting in ..." to "Scouting and Guiding in ...": Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Archive 5. We never came to a conclusion, so nothing was changed.

Today, Chris put the page User:Jergen/Scouting in X to Scouting and Guiding in X in my userspace, as a framework for possible changes. Before doing anything, I'd like to have more input on this.

One thing needing further discussion are those countries using solely "Scouting" (eg US, Japan, Taiwan). I'd leave these alone, but that would break the systematic approach. --jergen (talk) 09:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The last point you make is the crux of this issue. US, Japan, Taiwan aren't the only ones this affects. Other Asian and some South American countries don't call girl units guides.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 10:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * These can go either way, there doesn't have to be a one-size-fits all approach. In fact, for those countries, the S/G can be made a redirect back to S. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 10:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree: The article title should reflect the situational reality— if the county has Scouting and Guiding, then title it so. If only Scouting or Guiding, then make it so.
 * I just made a note on your page about the U.S. Virgin Islands, as they are served by the BSA and GSUSA. Let's ensure we get these right. --——  Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  11:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * A lot of the Scouting in links redirect to the sole NSO in the country. For example, Scouting in Afghanistan redirects to Afghanistan Scout Association. If you want to see redirects, it is possible to change the link color— I use green; see Link color. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  12:08, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I understand, but please, run with it. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 12:37, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There are more countries using solely "Scouting" like the Netherlands or only use male and female forms of Scout/Pathfinder like Germany. I think we shouldn't treat "Girl Scout" different from "Pfadfinderin". Best is to do all countries, even when there is no organisation with Guide in the name or no girls-only organisation. The article can, when needed, always also cover the non-existence of Guiding in a country. --Egel Reaction? 11:23, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree that the title should reflect the reality of the country in question. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 14:00, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I just sorted the list on my subpage, but it may still contain some errors. It is quite clear for most countries/territories, but there are a dozen entries needing further research or discussion: They state the existence of Guiding without any more informations or are very speculative.

I'd propose to change all entries in section 1 to "Scouting and Guiding" and to leave those in sections 2 and 3 at "Scouting". --jergen (talk) 18:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I did not yet mark all the redirects. I just noticed that the left toolbox now has a "find redirects" that highlights all redirected links. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  19:21, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I support this move, with the rider added by several that it reflects the situation in the country - "Scouting and Guiding" if both terms are used; "Scouting" only if only that term is used; "Guiding" only if only that term is used. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:00, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't think of a country that has Guiding but not Scouting. Peripheral to the topic, did we ever decide whether to count the PR China as having Scouts, as that is the situation on the ground, though WOSM counts them on their list of 6 that don't? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 05:25, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There is actually one: Scouting in Samoa. But Scouting did exist in the past, so we should move it to Scouting and Guiding in Samoa. --jergen (talk)


 * How are we going to find a NPOV-way to decide that only "Scouting" or "Guiding and Scouting" is used in a country?
 * Are we going to find a NPOV-way to decide that the local word for a girl in a organisation that follows the works of B-P should be translated as (Girl) Guide or (Girl) Scout? For example is a "Padvindster",  "Pfadfinderin" or "Cserkészlány" a Girl Scout or a Girl Guide? In the Hungarian Cserkészlány is "Cserkész", Scout and "lány", girl. Guide would be something like kalauz, útmutató, példamutatás or kalauzol.
 * Or when a country uses a different term for a girl, that country has guiding? That should be a more NPOV, but all counties using the term "Girl Scout" should fall in the category "Guiding and Scouting".
 * --Egel Reaction? 11:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, one has to check all sources... "Girl Guide" is the correct anwer to your three questions: Netherlands, Germany, Hungary.
 * Can't understand your comment on countries using "Girl Scout".
 * The only major problem is the translation of guía scout used in some South American countries: Its literal translation is "Guide Scout". Since it contains the term Guide, I decided to choose "Scouting and Guiding". If you have doubts on some entries pls comment on User talk:Jergen/Scouting in X to Scouting and Guiding in X. We should only discuss the overall renaming on this page. --jergen (talk) 13:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I only want to make the rules clear. Is the rule "if we can find a reliable source that says that the girls in Scouting can be called guides than that country has Guiding" ? For example: United States. "Number of guides: 3578760 (01/01/2006)" Or "if we can find a reliable source that all members are called scouts than that country has only Scouting"? For example: Netherlands "All members of Scouting Nederland are called scouts."  --Egel Reaction? 15:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC) quotes--Egel Reaction? 17:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Rule #1 should apply. Reliable sources are the organization itself, the governing international organizations, and reliable external sources.
 * Your examples are not helpful. What do you want to prove with the link to WAGGGS re GSUSA? It does not mention explicitely Guiding within the GSUSA; the formula "Guiding introduced in" is used on all subpages without reference to the organization's usage. Concerning the Netherlands, I linked another page of SN's website with a stringent usage of "Guide"; if you want us to believe that SN only uses Scout you should start with the organization's officials. - I may misinterpret your intentions bringing up these examples since you gave very little explanation what they are showing. Could please make clearer statements?
 * One more example for my position: If Country C has five organizations for girls and only one of them uses "Guiding" (or its equivalent), the article should be named "Scouting and Guiding in Country C". --jergen (talk)
 * I think all countries with Scouting/Guiding for girls should have "Scouting and Guiding in Country C" independent from the usage of term Guide/Guiding in that country. --Egel Reaction? 17:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

If there is the slightest doubt, we use both Scouting and Guiding. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  11:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * So say it simple, I have doubt with all most all countries. --Egel Reaction? 15:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What kind of doubt? Do you doubt that the countries listed in User:Jergen/Scouting in X to Scouting and Guiding in X are using the term "Guiding" for Girls in Scouting or do you doubt that the remainder does not use it? Your comment is not vey helpful. --jergen (talk) 17:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * PS: Perhaps you might feel that this whole renaming issue is original research or unappropriate. If so, please state this clearly. --jergen (talk) 17:07, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I feel that this whole renaming issue is based on original research except for countries without Scouting/Guiding for girls. --Egel Reaction? 17:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

DuncanHill (talk) 00:58, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And this glib comment brings what to the discussion? Of course, girls who are called Scouts are Scouts, those called Guides are Guides. This has been covered ad infinitum. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:43, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to chase you off, we've been over the naming issue for months, and the blanket comment simply added nothing. If you meant something else, please expand it. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

While it would be nice if we had agreement about a process for all countries, I would hope that lack of such agreement would not stop some articles being renamed to "Scouting and Guiding ..". I made this point long ago, but I will repeat it. In some countries, generally those with one dominant organisation affiliated to WOSM and one dominant organisation affilated to WAGGGS, the two arganisations are called "Scouts" and "Guides" respectively. Nobody understands that the term "Scouts" or "Scouting" includes Guides, just nobody. This is the situation in the UK, Australia and New Zealand for example. Not changing the title is just stopping those in Guiding from even looking at the article unless we add lots of redirects. But the redirect solution means they still see links to "Scouting in X" which they will ignore because they think it refers to "Scouting", not "Guiding". I do not see how this involves original research in any way. Indeed I do not understand Egel's point. Could you give an example of a country where it might be OR. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Solve this by discussion or by poll?
After having resorted part of the list again I think that we should come closer to a solution of this naming problem; researches and discussions on thefew open or missing entries would take lots of time, and before investing it I'd like to have put a direction on this matter.

We could
 * a) discuss it for a defined period (or until we reach consensus); I'd prefer a defined period over an open-end discussion
 * b) start a poll on it (3 options: General "Scouting in ..."-approach, general "Scouting and Guiding in ..."-approach, differentiated approach).

If we decide for the "differentiated approach" either by discussion or by poll, we need rules. If you prefer a poll for solving this, I'll prepare it including a proposal for the "differentiated approach". --jergen (talk) 11:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * support poll, also with a defined period. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 11:45, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Preliminary support for a poll, but I would like to see details of exactly what we are voting on. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. I'm confused: are we polling on what we will poll about? --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  00:55, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As I understand it (and Jergen correct me if I am wrong), Jergen proposes a poll with three options:
 * leave present naming as it is, Scouting in X
 * rename all disambigs to Scouting and Guiding in X
 * name each on a case-by-case basis, sometimes redirecting Scouting and Guiding in X back to Scouting in X for international readers
 * Then after a reasonable amount of time, a week (not months again), we close the poll and implement the closest to consensus. If we leave it open to discussion without a defined period, we tend to talk things to death and then change nothing. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:52, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Chris is right on the options. A poll would go on a subpage (*), mention the preliminary discussions and explain pros and cons for the options.
 * (*) I prefer a subpage, since this allows to put the decision outside of the day-to-day discussions. I'll prepare a proposal. --jergen (talk) 08:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

See my proposal for a poll at User:Jergen/workshop/Poll. Please feel free to add pros and cons or to comment on the proposal. --jergen (talk) 09:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You have clearly and concisely stated the proposals. This needs to move to a subpage of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting and begin the poll. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  18:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Most definitely NOT. The wording is not yet agreed. Discussion is still continuing on the talk page. I am also not convinced that the wording of all three options is quite as neutral as it could be. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll work on the wording later today. If you feel something is not as neutral as it could be, please change the wording or comment on the talk page; I'm no native speaker of English, so I don't get all subtleties. --jergen (talk) 07:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

added to the proposal
Chris and I are disagreeing on the poll page about whether the categories by country should be renamed also. If say Scouting in Australia is renamed to Scouting and Guiding in Australia, as it should, then it makes sense for Category:Scouting in Australia to be moved to Category:Scouting and Guiding in Australia. In fact it makes no sense if this is not done. On the other hand, Scouting in the United States should not be renamed and therefore Category:Scouting in the United States should not be renamed. The category name should follow the name of the article which is the main page in the country category. I propose that this be added to the proposal. If it is not discussed and determined now, a discussion is bound to start on this as soon as the discussion on the article name is determined. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  06:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I propose that this be held off until the present poll is complete, it unnecessarily complicates a long-standing issue that needs to be settled of its own merits. At this time the only category that would warrant a name-change, based on the results of the present poll, is the parent category in which the national disambigs are nested. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 07:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we should include it in the poll. Different naming systems for categories and articles don't feel go. When first preparing the poll, I did not see the full scope of possible changes. --jergen (talk) 07:40, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Brian and I seem to be talking about two different things. I am only talking about the broad category all such articles go into. He seems to be talking about national categories. Somewhere there is a disconnect. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 08:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are quite right about what I am saying. It is normal for the name of the category to mirror the name of the main article, so if the article in "Scouting and Guiding in XXX" the category should be "Category: Scouting and Guiding in XXX". If the article in "Scouting in XXX" the category should be "Category: Scouting in XXX".I want us to vote on the two together because they are linked. This is not adding confusion. It is simplifying matters. I think Jergen is agreeing with me. I suggest we let this discussion run for a few days  to let others comment. I am going to shut up on this topic for a while. -- Bduke    (Discussion)  08:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, now I get it. You weren't talking about creating new parent categories based on usage of naming conventions, just naming each as case-by-case. We're on the same page, that is reasonable. :) Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 09:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes- the category and the country article should match. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  13:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Good, so are we ready for the poll? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I just made some minor changes that should cover the comments of Bduke. But we should give him some time for commenting again. --jergen (talk) 10:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it is time we had the poll on this. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  00:43, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Could somebody, who is more familiar with the relevant procedures and necessary announcements, please move the page into the project space and open the polling? --jergen (talk) 09:16, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I have indicated on the poll page and above that this is now closed. Can we get a bot to do some of the work, based on the list of those to change? -- Bduke   (Discussion)  23:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Tim Jeal
The article on B-P's biographer was removed from the province of the Project, but I added the Project tag back. However I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the article is almost all about his book on Stanley with very little about his book on B-P. That needs to be rectified. We need to get a broad range of reviews of the book. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  03:16, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I commented there. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 03:32, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The book is covered in Baden-Powell (book). --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  02:13, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I wasn't aware I was suppose to discuss it here first. Sorry about that.  As I explained in the talk page, you can't consider it a good source of history on scouting, when it contains such idiotic claims about why Baden Powell was a homosexual.  The New York Times article I linked to, shows several examples, and this has been discussed in the Baden Powell sexual orientation article.  The number of idiotic claims the book makes, to convince people the guy is homosexual, is absolutely ridiculous.  I would like to nominate it for deletion from this list.  The book claims that he was sexually attracted to young boys. Dream Focus (talk) 04:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not think your continued use of terms like "idiotic claims" is helping your argument when you do not appear to have read the book and are basing your opinion on a review in a newspaper. As User:Gadget850 says on Talk:Tim Jeal this book is one of the most important and scholarly biographers of Baden-Powell. Anybody who wants to understand the man must read it. Now what is Jeal saying? Well it is complex so not easy to summarise, but he is not saying that he was homosexual or that he behaved in any unacceptable manner with children or indeed adults. He is saying that his personality contained features of suppressed homosexuality of which he was undoubtedly not aware. I think that explains quite a lot about B-P that previously was not clear. It is also of course a very small part of the whole book, but is the part many journalists concentrated on. Of course, Tim Jeal and Baden-Powell (book) should be included in the articles of interest to this Project. What do you mean by "I would like to nominate it for deletion from this list"? What list? What are you trying to delete? -- Bduke   (Discussion)  04:43, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The passage DreamFocus is concerned about is IIRC less than %5 of the book. DreamFocus seems to want to remove the project tag from the article talk page. I can not support that. The tag should stay in place. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 12:03, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 3.7% to be a bit more precise. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  12:48, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The article should be tagged as low on the Importance scale because the article explains every little about B-P that has any relevance to Scouting. --Egel Reaction? 12:37, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. That part I agree with. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 12:42, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Help desk. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  13:32, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

National Organization of Scouts of Ukraine
A week ago an editor made an edit to this article, newish but with contact info that was later removed. I used the contact info, and found that he is Andriy Chesnokov, International Commissioner of National Organization of Scouts of Ukraine. At my request, he graciously supplied me with information, translation and two more emblems. The organization is new, still a framework, and does not have a website. Another editor today disputes that Chesnokov is indeed the IntComm, though he consistently identifies himself as such. Your thoughts? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 09:39, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I am that "another editor". The thing is that in 2007 scouts-delegates on NOSU Congress has elected National Council with 16 members. Also at congress Chairman (Lev Zakharchyshyn) and Vice-Chairman (Valeriy Tantsiura) were elected. Since that time there were no congresses of delegates and no meetings of National Council to elect somebody else. That's all. --Yarko (talk) 13:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "Андрій Чесноков" is mentioned twice on the site of Plast: http://www.plast.org.ua/news?newsid=2472 http://www.plast.org.ua/news?newsid=2461, the last one says in translation: "Ukrainian delegation consisting of chairman nose Levko Zaharchyshyna, Vice Chairman nose Valeria Tantsyura, international komisara Andrei Chesnokov i member council nose Dmitry Muzala vidbuvaye July 11 to Republic of Korea to participate in vosmiy World Conference skautyzmu." http://www.scout.org/en/content/download/11029/90938/file/C0811Ukraine_e.pdf says the same,  so Chesnokov is indeed the IntComm.  --Egel Reaction? 13:44, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Could it be that Chesnokov was never elected but is acting IC? That would make this whole matter a misunderstanding. --jergen (talk) 15:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear collegues! I just want to point you on that fact that all that story about A. Chesnokov on IC is awfull misunderstanding. Once wrong putted information to mass-media caused this situation that we have now. That's why it's very important to make Wikipedia clear from wromg prejudiced information. I just can't get it - how somebody could be elected on some position without any elections? There were no elections for this point - it's a fact that nobody can refute. --Yarko (talk) 08:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * All content of Wikipedia should be based on reliable sources. Currently, we have the WOSM circular on Ukraine as sole source on the leadership of NOSU; WOSM is IMO reliable on Scouting issues. As long as there are no contradicting sources, we have to believe that A. Chesnokov is the IC of NOSU, following basic Wikipedia principles - even if this information is wrong. --jergen (talk) 09:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Changing reference systems? - advice wanted
I'd like some practical advice. An article I started a few years ago has recently had a banner added to it acknowledging the references section, but asking for inline citations. I've still got my sources, so I can go back and fulfill this request, but I'm having trouble working out exactly what is good practice in this scenario. Should I just delete sources from the current list once they become inline citations? Do all sources end up in one section at the end (in two formats)? How should I proceed in converting the article? Kingbird (talk) 18:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * See WP:S-REF. Once you work your sources to inline, delete then from the list. The reflist will then populate. Don't forget to include page numbers. I suppose I've become an expert on this, so please ask me if you need more help. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  19:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Refs are one of my speciality too, so ask me too if you like. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 19:44, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Scouts' Day
Scouts' Day is coming up in about two weeks, but looking at this article, it would appear only a handful of countries have special Scouts' Days. What about your country? Take a look and add it to the list! Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 19:00, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Scouts' Day isn't coming up (unless that is the name in your particular country); World Thinking Day or Founders' Day on February 22 is coming up. I think the article needs some work.  Perhaps a division between National Association special days and WOSM/WAGGGS special days.--Erp (talk) 22:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Never heard about Scout's Day in Germany - all organizations celebrate (World) Thinking Day, even those with WOSM membership only.
 * For a first step, I added the WTD themes of the last years to the article. Have there been WAGGGS set themes prior to 2005? I could not find anything on 2004 or earlier. The article could use a history section and some more content on activities. --jergen (talk) 09:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Happy Founders' Day! Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 04:54, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Happy Founders' Day! And many Scout Greetings on World Thinking Day 2009.-YIS Phips (talk) 12:56, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Witold Pilecki
nominated Witold Pilecki for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Tom B (talk) 16:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Turnkey template
Would anyone be interested in overhauling this project page with the Turnkey template? It would help make things more readable and organized I think. —Eustress talk 00:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No. Gadget850 just made us a new layout. The turnkey one is gaudy and takes more room.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:50, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I like some bits and pieces of it. I will think on this a bit. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  12:58, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

List of Scouting and Guiding national organizations
Would something like this, that lists all regardless of supranational affiliation (or none at all), like http://www.troop97.net/wrldsct1.htm be useful on the 'pedia? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 08:30, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Could be. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 10:57, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Could be interesting, but would it complement or replace the existing affiliation-based lists? DiverScout (talk) 12:45, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


 * We have the lists listed at Scout. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  12:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Some possible issues:
 * Compiling such a list could be seen as original research.
 * There are lots of non-notable Scouting organizations, single troop organizations etc. What are the criteria for inclusion in the list?
 * A list of this kind is close to an invititon for link-spamming, esp. for the organizations with little or no notability. The list would need regular maintainance.
 * A complete list cannot replace the existing affiliation-based lists due to its size. http://www.troop97.net/wrldsct1.htm has about 500 entries, but there are certainly more. I'd estimate a total of 1000 possible entries, more, if we'd include historical organizations.
 * I'm unsure if the benefits of the proposed list overweight the risks and the necessary work. I started a list for Latin America in my userspace (User:Jergen/workshop/South American independent Scouting) which attracts all kinds of advertisment and even edit-wars despite the difficulty to find this page. --jergen (talk) 13:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Lists of organizations and federations belonging to the supranational associations can certainly be referenced, and we already have those. The real issue is with the non-affiliated organizations and their notability.
 * As to the last issue, try to remove your page from external search engines. --——  Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  16:03, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * IMO, membership in at least two supranational organizations (WFIS, OWS) is disturbingly unstable. Certainly, we could use the websites as sources, but the respective entries would need constant maintainance. But that's not the main issue. For a (nearly) comprehensive list, we need reliable sources for non-affiliated organizations, understandable notability criteria and lots of still missing informations (mainly on Africa). --jergen (talk) 16:24, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with both Ed and Jergen. I think such a list would have too many problems. The more one looks into some of the small non-aligned organisations, the more one finds that the sources are not reliable. Even as a guide, I would have doubts about using the list Chris mentions at the top of this section. It does not seem to be updated often and we have no idea where the writer of it gets his information. It is not a reliable source. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  20:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyway, just asking. Got it. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 02:22, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Former BSA camps
Does anyone know of any resource discussing former BSA summer camps? I just ran across an article on the Cascade Boy Scout Camp near Durango, Colorado; it has an article because it's listed on the National Register of Historic Places (as the result of being included on the NRHP, such sites have enough published information about them that they are notable, so please don't worry about notability questions), not because it's a camp. Not finding anything on the website of the local Great Southwest Council (or the appropriate Anasazi District page), I emailed the webmaster, who said that he had never heard of the site. Although I know that some councils operate camps in other areas (my home council is the location of a camp operated by the council to the east), I'm assuming that it's not currently in use. Any help? Nyttend (talk) 14:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe it is/was operated by a non-Scouting organisation?  It was originally built through community efforts as a summer camp for boy scouts, church groups, 4-H Club members, and other youth groups from Durango and the San Juan Basin.
 * Maybe she lived there:
 * --Egel Reaction? 18:22, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help. I already knew what it wasn't, but I didn't know for sure what it was, until I read that link.  Nyttend (talk) 14:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Article monitoring
See Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-02-23/Article_Alerts, there's potential here. Anyone wants to use it, go sign yourself/us up. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 22:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Already done on the main project page. It will take a few days for this to process, so I disabled the display for now. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  22:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Now live at WikiProject Scouting/Article alerts. I will look at this a bit to see how we might best format it. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  02:43, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Can we somehow transclude the ones that have actual listings? Or at least add the page to the nav bar? <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 02:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I thinking there are ways to format the output, but I have not looked at this closely yet. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  11:35, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Will this also pick up new articles, and/or ones with keywords that we might have missed, like we find from time to time? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 06:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No. It only monitors pages that already have the project banner. It will also not pick up processes that do not have a template. For example: if you start a discussion to delete an article without adding the AfD template, then there is no way for the system to pick it up. You probably noted that Witold Pilecki was automatically added because of the FAR template. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  11:35, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, then there is a bot that does the process I described, can we sign up for that too? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:13, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What bot? --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  16:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I asked about this some months ago. Something like can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Lithuania#New_articles_found_by_bot . Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:54, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Can we do that? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 11:23, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can figure out what bot is doing this, we can take a look. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  18:00, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

New project interface
I like the changes to the new interface. I have a couple suggestions: Keep up the good work! —Eustress talk 03:13, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Call the Coordinators section Project leadership or Project coordinators so that the subheading structure is parallel with other sections.
 * Is an Admin section necessary? It takes up a lot of room at present and they're not WikiProject admins but admins over the entire encyclopedia. Maybe they could be marked accordingly on the list of project participants, with a link somehow incorporated into the Project coordinators section.
 * Is there anyway to get the project shortcuts inside the header? (i.e., inside the tan WikiProject Scouting banner).

Coordinators' working group
Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. &mdash; Delievered by §hepBot  ( Disable )  on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 06:30, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Scouting and Guiding
See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Poll 2009-02-02.

The poll has been closed for while, and clearly we are going with option 3:

Option 3

 * The naming of the articles is decided on a case-by-case basis.
 * The necessary redirects are added.
 * The category is moved in line with the name of the article.
 * The parent category is moved to Category:Scouting and Guiding by country (inclusive of both, no need for a separate category).

The determining factor is the usage by the national Scouting and Guiding organizations, and the common meaning of the terms Scouting and Guiding in the country.

Examples:
 * Scouting in the United States is not moved since there is no usage of Guiding referring to girls in Scouting in the US.
 * Scouting in the United Kingdom is moved to Scouting and Guiding in the United Kingdom since Guiding and Scouting are distinct terms for distinct organizations, and people do not consider the term Scouting to include Guides (and vice versa).

Tasks

 * Rename articles and reword the lead
 * Rename categories
 * Reword project pages, including style guides
 * Rework templates
 * Rework userboxes

Please expand the above list as needed.

--—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  14:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have already reworked the main project page as part of my updates and will continue on the other pages.
 * I will also take on the templates. During the updates, redirects will keep templates updated. Once complete, the template will be reworked. We may need to rework categories as they change.
 * There was a concern about templates such as Scout continent that are based on templates such as Europe topic. Once the updates are complete, I can fix the template and all redirects; I already have a plan in place.
 * I do not plan on renaming current templates that use only "Scout" in the template name as this is not a content issue.
 * We should start implementing these. The full list is at User:Jergen/Scouting in X to Scouting and Guiding in X Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 00:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there any way we can get template calls like to link both to Scouting and Guiding in X or Guiding in X when both terms are used in the region? If this is not possible, and we have to use the "Scouting in X" redirects, is there a way that the heading can read "Scouting and Guiding in Oceania" while the links go to "Scouting in X"? -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have figured out the answer to the second question. It is to use, which gives the same link as before but a better title. I have made the change for this Oceania template as many of the countries in the template have been renamed to "Scouting and Guiding in X". -- Bduke    (Discussion)  22:22, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The answer is yes: edit . When done, I will make it live. We don't have to update the article. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  23:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have updated that template, leaving just a few redirects for now. There are a few that may need to be changed to "Scouting and Guiding in" such as New Caledonia. That should be changed if Scouting in France is changed. What happens now? I am still puzzled about the relationship between this template and the one actually on the articles. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  00:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What happens is that I update Scout continent to use the Oceania subtemplate (done). The other continents stay the same until their subtemplates are updated. This way we don't have to change the template in any articles. Here are all of the subtemplates:
 * Let me know when one is updated and I will make it live. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  01:47, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So, which is currently on all these articles has to be replaced by the Scout continent template? I'm still confused. -- Bduke    (Discussion)  05:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Use just as before. --——  Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  08:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll change them all. My confusion is that there was no "before". Scouting and Guiding in Fiji, for example, has always used "Oceania topic" and never used "Scout continent" and I think they were pretty well all like that. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  08:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It is possible that I missed some when I originally created {tlx|Scout continent}} and updated the articles. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  11:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I see what happened. I used the template to build the list of links and updated them with AWB. A number of the links were redirects that did not have the template. Now that we are using the custom topic templates with no redirects, we can clean this up. North America and Oceania are done and the templates are now live.
 * Let me know when one is updated and I will make it live. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  01:47, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So, which is currently on all these articles has to be replaced by the Scout continent template? I'm still confused. -- Bduke    (Discussion)  05:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Use just as before. --——  Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  08:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll change them all. My confusion is that there was no "before". Scouting and Guiding in Fiji, for example, has always used "Oceania topic" and never used "Scout continent" and I think they were pretty well all like that. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  08:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It is possible that I missed some when I originally created {tlx|Scout continent}} and updated the articles. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  11:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I see what happened. I used the template to build the list of links and updated them with AWB. A number of the links were redirects that did not have the template. Now that we are using the custom topic templates with no redirects, we can clean this up. North America and Oceania are done and the templates are now live.

I think only a few countries in Europe remain to be done, but some have quite large categories. Of course much checking remains to be done. I am going to do that for now and leave Europe for another day. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  05:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I ran out of steam, but hope to get around to help with these soon. There are a lot of other cases where S in X has been moved to S & G in X, with S in X being a redirect, where G in X as a redirect needs to be created.


 * There are only a few redlinks left on Scout continent/Europe. Of course, this includes France and Germany. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)   talk 12:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Done. Europe is now live. Need to look at some other categories. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 23:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Project page
You may have noticed the refresh of the main project page. I have broken it up into severl different subpages so that you can watch only the parts you desire. You can use the link at Watching project pages to add project pages to your watchlist. I appreciate any feedback on the project page, bad or good.

--—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  22:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Overall, very nice. "News" at the top should link to announcements and "Task forces" should link to Taskforces, if this is poss, both are red links right now. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 23:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Article alerts
This is a notice to let you know about Article alerts, a fully-automated subscription-based news delivery system designed to notify WikiProjects and Taskforces when articles are entering Articles for deletion, Requests for comment, Peer review and other workflows (full list). The reports are updated on a daily basis, and provide brief summaries of what happened, with relevant links to discussion or results when possible. A certain degree of customization is available; WikiProjects and Taskforces can choose which workflows to include, have individual reports generated for each workflow, have deletion discussion transcluded on the reports, and so on. An example of a customized report can be found here.

If you are already subscribed to Article Alerts, it is now easier to report bugs and request new features. We are also in the process of implementing a "news system", which would let projects know about ongoing discussions on a wikipedia-wide level, and other things of interest. The developers also note that some subscribing WikiProjects and Taskforces use the  parameter, but forget to give a link to their alert page. Your alert page should be located at "Wikipedia:PROJECT-OR-TASKFORCE-HOMEPAGE/Article alerts". Questions and feedback should be left at Wikipedia talk:Article alerts.

Message sent by User:Addbot to all active wiki projects per request, Comments on the message and bot are welcome here.

Thanks. — Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}<sub style="margin-left:-4.0ex;">κοντριβς – WP Physics} 09:39, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

Renaming images
Admins can now move images. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  00:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Good, is there a bot that can help? I have been gradully tagging bunches of images thus. The names are incorrect or not descriptive enough, hence the tag. Many of my early ones from when I knew no better are totally misnamed. I tagged ones on Commons, someone had a bot going or something, things were renamed within hours. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 00:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * See WP:AWB<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 00:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Appears there were some problems and it has been disabled. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  15:21, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, for the hundreds that were changed recently, do we need to go back and manually change the hyperlinks then, or is that not one of the problems? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 05:31, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Updating the links would be a good thing. It sure makes it hard to see what article the image is used in and I'm not sure how the bots are going to handle it. I would not be surprised to get messages that these images are not used in an article. When I was renaming by hand, I fixed the links in the article first, then moved the image. I have also been updating the rationale for logos to use logo fur. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  09:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Be careful when you change to logo fur, some are losing the source info. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 10:37, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Image categories
With all of the thousands of logos we maintain, we have only had subcategories for the BSA. This makes it difficult for editors to manage the images where they have a direct interest. We need to split these up so that images are easier to track and cleanup.

AS a start, I created Category:World Organization of the Scout Movement logos and Category:World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts logos for images specific to those associations and have updated Non-free Scout logo.

I tweaked Non-free Scout logo so that is is easier to see where to add new categories. We have had some instructions in the category headers— I have standardized this with Scoutlogoheader.

As to organization: this should follow the article categories. How far down to go is up to editors. For example: whether you need a category for Scouting and Guiding in Australia logos or a Scouts Australia logos category will depend on the number of images in question. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  13:18, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * good work. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 13:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, very good work. I hope people take it up and use it as intended. I am not that "in" to logos, so I will not follow up the Australia suggestion. UK is a more likely target for a category on its own. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  20:56, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Category:The Scout Association logos created and populated. Scouts Canada is probably next. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  01:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Guiding in the States and Territories of Australia
Please look at a proposal at Talk:Scouting and Guiding in Australia and comment there. We currently have no coverage on Guiding in the States and Territories, and only one Guiding article. Briefly the proposal is to to cover Guiding in the articles such as Scouting in Victoria, with of course a rename of these articles to, for example, Scouting and Guiding in Victoria. Note that the current articles cover all Scouting organisations, but not Guiding. They are not just about Scouts Australia. Comments are welcome. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the idea.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:55, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have started with the smallest and easiest - Scouting and Guiding in the Northern Territory. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  22:01, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Non-free Scout logos with no related content
We have been at this multiple times, so let me recap:


 * 1) Logos of awards, events and organizations are treated somewhat differently from other non-free images; see Logos
 * 2) The current logo inherently illustrates the award, event or organization and does not require any commentary, although such commentary may certainly be included
 * 3) Logos may not be used in lists or galleries; such use is considered decorative
 * 4) Using multiple logos in an article that covers multiple awards, events or organizations is acceptable, as long as each logo has significant related content
 * 5) There is no limit as to the number of logos used in an article, as long as the other guidelines are met, but each individual non-free logo should be used a minimum number of times
 * 6) Using an historical logo simply to show that an organization was active at a certain period is not acceptable unless the logo has significant related content


 * Rule of thumb: include content before uploading the related logo

Some time back, I started a list of articles with issues. Little has happened to resolve the issues. I am going to take a different approach and will begin tagging the images in question. After some investigation, it appears that we are rather unique in this problem, so I have created a template for:

This will place the image in Category:Non-free Scout logos with no related content. Hopefully we can start cleaning this out before we are forced to delete images. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  15:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Then I will need help with this, as I'm kind of mystified and also swamped right now. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 04:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Scouting in Victoria ...
Since the Canadian provinces have been moved to "Scouting and Guiding in..." the Australian states should also be moved. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 05:41, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the move should happen at the same time that Guiding information is added. I have this on my "to do" list, but feel free to add Guide content. I do not think we have an Australian Guide editor, but Kingbird says that she plans to help out in May. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  23:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Scouting in Belarus
The rabid deletionist jmilburn is back, making a WP:POINT violation. He seems to have a particular nasty bent against this Project. Everyone here (myself included, though not as well as the rest of you), is doing our best to get the images under compliance, and that's just too narrow a view. Please help me do this one right and not lose the image. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Whatever you think of me and my motives, he's now violated 3RR and I have submitted this for 3O. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Looking at JMilburn's contributions, he is actively cleaning up all images. I only see a problem when the two of you interact. During the last round of discussions, he made some very valid points, we said that we would clean things up, and little has happened.

Let me reiterate once more:


 * You can't have non-free images in a gallery
 * You can't have non-free images in a list
 * Non-free images that are not the primary logo of the subject of the article must have significant related content
 * Image captions are not content; captions tie the image to the content

The aren't my rules and this is nothing new. If you want to keep File:Scouting in Belarus logo.svg, then add a paragraph or so related to it. If you want to keep File:Gomel Scouts.jpg the start and article on Gomel Scouts; a stub will do for now.

And start fixing the images in Category:Non-free Scout logos with no related content before they get deleted. Surely you have noticed images being tagged, and the category header is clear on the issues.

Please give me about three weeks, I have a Japanese national holiday coming up and can hit them then Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

For example: Why is File:WestIndiesScout.jpg used in five different stub articles without any related content? The actual organization logo is not even used in those articles.--—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  21:05, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

because we do not yet have the present emblem for them Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd like to have some proof that the images in question are really non-free content. They main problem is - sorry to say this - that Chris did upload all Scout images with fair-use tags, simply for convinience. I'm not really sure that these images match the Threshold of originality; under German law, all Scout logos would be in the PD because of their missing originality. --jergen (talk) 07:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Scoutlogo was the only tag we had at the time, the legalities (and legalism) are not really my field of expertise Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Unless we truly know that an image is PD or similar, then we must assume they are non-free. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  09:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That is not my point: We have a lot of Scouting images with wrong tags, some examples:
 * File:WestIndiesScout.jpg is a variant of the coat of arms of the West Indies Federation (File:West indies federation.svg) and should be tagged as coa and not with Non-free Scout logo.
 * File:Easter Island Scouting in Chile.jpg is certainly below the threshold of originality and should be tagged as PD.
 * File:Boy Scouts Association in India.svg was designed before 1922according to the article; thus it should be tagged as pd (pre-1923-rule).
 * File:Armenian Scouts in Argentina.jpg shows only text and is below the threshold of originality --> PD
 * etc etc
 * I would not be surprised if about a third of the logos tagged with Non-free Scout logo has wrong tags and is in the PD. Before starting any removal, the status of all images should be reviewed. --jergen (talk) 12:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If you see any, go ahead and change it. Do remember that some NSOs are protected not only by trademark law, but also by special legislation. In the U.S., BSA and GSUSA logos are protected by Congressional charter, and I would not be surprised if the UK and others have similar protections. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  13:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * As you do so, please replace the rationale with information to retain the source. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  13:57, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * And now I see that File:Kvemo Kartli Skauturi Modzraobis Organizatsia.jpg is up for deletion as having no relevant content. At this point, I have to agree with the nom: the image is used in two articles and neither has any significant content. --——  Gadget850 (Ed)  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  -  13:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Again, I will get to it, Belarus and this one will be top priority Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2009_April_8&action=edit&section=18 Have I addressed this one successfully? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 02:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have twice today added new content for Belarus, so the images are justified, and twice they have have again been removed. Please look over my new edits and see what possibly I am missing. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 15:35, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I am agreeing with Jergen on the comments about threshold of originality, certainly with UK Scout Association county badges. Most of these are copies or slight adaptions of the heraldry of the respective regional counties and cannot be considered "property" of the SA. I agree that a proper audit of which logos ought to be covered by the Scoutlogo ought to take place. I'd be happy to help with this, but we'd need to agree for each one what it ought to be tagged as. This is not really a great place for lone editors to be wandering. DiverScout (talk) 11:55, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Poll: autoformatting and date linking
This is to let people know that there is only a day or so left on a poll. The poll is an attempt to end years of argument about autoformatting which has also led to a dispute about date linking. Your votes are welcome at: Date formatting and linking poll. Regards Lightmouse (talk) 12:33, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

History of Sea Scouting (Scouting Ireland)
Do we really need an article dedicated to troop closures? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 14:32, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * That was what was left after I removed the copyvio. --Egel Reaction? 14:39, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we can merge it into the Sea Scouting (Scouting Ireland) article, although in view of the merger of associations I would prefer this to be called Sea Scouting in Ireland, but that raises the nonsense that is going on about "Ireland" or "Republic of Ireland" and is "Ireland" the state or the island. Perhaps not go there until that is resolved. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration and its talk page. Also, are all the images there really free? They seem to be copies of SI badges, flags, etc.? -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:59, 16 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The images have been listed on the image problem page for a while as Images uploaded by Arklow 1. --Gadget850 (talk) 22:47, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Newly tagged GA
I have just tagged Stephen Breyer, an Eagle Scout and DESA recipient who just happens to be an Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court for this project. FYI, the article is a GA, and since the redesign of the project page, I don't know where to let people know about these types of finds. -MBK004 23:47, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Here is fine. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 23:54, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Question
So is this project exclusive only to BoyScouts/GirlScouts? As in, it wouldn't cover Camp Fire USA? - ℅ &#10032; <strong style="letter-spacing:1px;font-family:Verdana">ALLST☆R &#10032; echo 20:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, answered my own question via the WikiProject Scouting banner on the Camp Fire USA article. - ℅ &#10032; <strong style="letter-spacing:1px;font-family:Verdana">ALLST☆R &#10032; echo 20:35, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * See WikiProject_Scouting <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * And yes, I saw you stuffed your userbox back in. Snooze. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)   talk 20:54, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * With an edit summary of "more to come" so no need to be snipey. - ℅ &#10032; <strong style="letter-spacing:1px;font-family:Verdana">ALLST☆R &#10032; echo 21:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Geocities
The Yahoo! Geocities webhost will be discontinued in the near future. We have several references from this host: links

We need to start looking for sources to replace these. Perhaps we need to tag the talk pages using these links. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 14:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

SS Orduna
BP made a "peace cruise" on this ship in 1938. No mention in either article. Anyone? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Was it just some ship he sailed on or did the peace cruise have a Scouting connection beyond that? <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 17:03, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Totally Scouting, I have a flag that has both the fleur-de-lis and the trefoil on it, blue on half, green on half, that was made for all the dining tables on ship. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 17:18, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Added to the SS Orduna page. DiverScout (talk) 08:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that! Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

GA Sweeps invitation
This message is being sent to WikiProjects with GAs under their scope. Since August 2007, WikiProject Good Articles has been participating in GA sweeps. The process helps to ensure that articles that have passed a nomination before that date meet the GA criteria. After nearly two years, the running total has just passed the 50% mark. In order to expediate the reviewing, several changes have been made to the process. A new worklist has been created, detailing which articles are left to review. Instead of reviewing by topic, editors can consider picking and choosing whichever articles they are interested in.

We are always looking for new members to assist with reviewing the remaining articles, and since this project has GAs under its scope, it would be beneficial if any of its members could review a few articles (perhaps your project's articles). Your project's members are likely to be more knowledgeable about your topic GAs then an outside reviewer. As a result, reviewing your project's articles would improve the quality of the review in ensuring that the article meets your project's concerns on sourcing, content, and guidelines. However, members can also review any other article in the worklist to ensure it meets the GA criteria.

If any members are interested, please visit the GA sweeps page for further details and instructions in initiating a review. If you'd like to join the process, please add your name to the running total page. In addition, for every member that reviews 100 articles from the worklist or has a significant impact on the process, s/he will get an award when they reach that threshold. With ~1,300 articles left to review, we would appreciate any editors that could contribute in helping to uphold the quality of GAs. If you have any questions about the process, reviewing, or need help with a particular article, please contact me or OhanaUnited and we'll be happy to help. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 06:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Categories
Now that Scouting and Guiding by country is finished, we need to work the other categories:


 * Scouting
 * Guiding
 * Scouting images
 * International Scouting
 * International Scouting leaders
 * International Scouting organizations
 * People associated with Scouting
 * Scout and Guide awards
 * Scout campsites
 * Scout leader training
 * Scouting events
 * Scouting jamborees
 * Scouting ideals
 * Scouting in popular culture
 * Scouting museums
 * Scouting organizations and associations
 * Disbanded Scouting organizations
 * International Scouting organizations
 * Non-aligned Scouting organizations
 * Scouting-related associations
 * Scouting spoken word files
 * Scouting uniform
 * Scouting-related lists
 * Scouting stubs

These should be fairly simple. Anyone see any issues? ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 16:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you mean renaming them to "Scouting and Guiding", or other fixes? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 14:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes- rename to "Scouting and Guiding" as appropriate. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 14:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Baden-Powell Scouts' Association
There are three sections on child protection. Does anyone else see this as undue weight? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 14:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I see it also as undue weight, but I understand the reason why it is added. I think the text can stay, but not in separate sections. --Egel Reaction? 21:50, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Definitely. It's an important topic but should be in a summary para for the whole article. It does not warrant a section for each country. The format as it is at the moment would be more appropo for an article on "Child Protection In Scouting". <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 22:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I have merged the content into one section. It was repeated due to the intended forking out of BPSAFC and BPSAI into their own respective articles - but as this has not taken place I agree that having the heading repeated caused possible undue emphasis.  It is, however, an exceptionally important area. DiverScout (talk) 06:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Infobox WorldScouting
Infobox WorldScouting now has a new parameter: portal. When set to, it suppresses the display of the portal at the bottom of the template. This is for multiple uses of the template within an article, such as Sea Scouts (The Scout Association) or Stonewall Jackson Area Council. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 00:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Good idea. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 01:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I also added some prefilled samples to the documentation for BSA councils, camps and lodges. Please add any others that you might use regularly. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 01:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Updated the image parameter. If someone uses full image syntax with brackets, the image will now show. Added the alt text field for screen readers and text browsers— this defaults to the name if not supplied. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 02:02, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

William D. Boyce
Boyce will appear on the main page on June 16 UTC. Be Prepared. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 14:34, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Zowie. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 20:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Trail signs
I can't seem to find any material on Wikipedia about the boy scout trail signs. Apologies if this is not the right place to mention this. --Doradus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.225.35 (talk) 11:59, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Moving this to the group page so it can be seen. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 14:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Trail blazing ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 14:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Neil Armstrong GAR notice
Neil Armstrong has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:58, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Outline of knowledge
I have only just come across the Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge and its sub-pages such as Outline of the United Kingdom, Outline of the United States,Outline of Australia, etc. None of these seem to have any mention of Scouting or youth movements and organizations in general. Should they have? If so, could we agree on how mention should be made? Do we come under "culture" or "education" or some where else? I'm not sure. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  03:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Society. See WP:FPO, where our portal is listed in the "Social sciences and society" section. Either just add it, or create a "Youth organizations" subpage and listed several well know ones with portals.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 10:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of adding our "Scouting and Guiding in XX" articles to some country outlines, but they do not have a Social sciences and society section. As I said, "culture" or "education" seem to come closest. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  11:17, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * In such a case, culture would be better than education. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:51, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Could we do both? ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 22:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not think that two mentions of Scouting in one outline artcile would be accepted. Why not you guys gave a think about what to add to Outline of the United States? I am really still unclear looking at Outline of Australia.-- Bduke   (Discussion)  23:54, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Arthur Rose Eldred GA Sweeps: On Hold
I have reviewed Arthur Rose Eldred for GA Sweeps to determine if it still qualifies as a Good Article. In reviewing the article I have found several issues, which I have detailed here. Since the article falls under the scope of this project, I figured you would be interested in contributing to further improve the article. Please comment there to help the article maintain its GA status. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 22:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's been saved by JGHowes and myself. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 12:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Neil Armstrong needs help
As we near the 40th anniversary of Apollo 11, the article on Neil Armstrong could use just a little work. Thanks for your help, JMG (talk) 07:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Someone has tagged a few sentences "citation needed" - it would be great to get those cleaned-up.
 * 2) There seems to be a small discrepancy between Apollo 11 and Neil Armstrong concerning how much fuel the lunar lander had for landing.

Popular pages
I have added the project to the Popular pages tool. Once configured, the most popular pages will be added to WikiProject Scouting/Popular pages. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 01:03, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Scouting and Guiding in Argentina in need of major cleanup
Thanks to User:Scouts2012, Scouting and Guiding in Argentina was expanded with material from the Spanish article - but unfortunately, his English is worse than mine. Could anybosy with a better understanding of both English and Spanish try to correct the article? Thank you. --jergen (talk) 08:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

African Adventures
Does anyone have B-P's African Adventures? The final chapter details the B-Ps visit to Ascension and St Helena and I'm sure it contains information that would be helpful for Scouting and Guiding on Saint Helena and Ascension Island. Kingbird (talk) 21:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Boy Scout Handbook & Wikipedia
I just picked up the new 12th edition of the BSA's Boy Scout Handbook. Flipping through the credits, I see that several photos are credited to Wikipedia:


 * p. 37
 * File:BP and future Scouts at Brownsea.jpg


 * p. 141
 * File:Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix CDC-a.png
 * Rattlesnake— unidentified
 * File:Agkistrodon piscivorus piscivorus CDC.png


 * p. 214
 * Elm leaf— unidentified
 * Cherry leaf— unidentified
 * Cherry tree— unidentified
 * File:Vivo d'orcia 014.jpg (beech tree in Tuscany, Italy)
 * File:Betula pendula 001.jpg {birch tree in Germany)
 * Willow tree— unidentified


 * p. 240
 * File:Orion constellation Hevelius.jpg


 * p. 359
 * UTM overview of the U.S.— unidentified

---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 17:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * AH! I uploaded the BP one! Cool.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thought that one would catch your eye! Don't know it is is worth listing all of the images sourced in Wikipedia, but it is cool to know. Actually, these are not the first Wikipedia images used by the BSA. The Hazardous Weather Training uses an image of the Boy Scout Handbook cover that was used in the handbook article before I replaced it. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 22:05, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Did the BSA get the licensing right? Does the handbook mention the real authors and the licenses? Does it contain the full text of the GFDL 1.2 as well as the full history of File:Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix CDC-a.png?
 * I'm just curious. BTW: If the handbook uses on of my pics (see commons:User:Jergen), I'd like to be informed; I won't send them a bill (as I did with a German company using one of my pics), but would ask for a copy. --jergen (talk) 06:46, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have not seen the brand new one, but Ed has. Ed? <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 10:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The credits are just to "Wikipedia.org." I added more to the list. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 18:28, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Better than nothing, but full credits including authors and licenses would be better. Has somebody of us contacts to BSA's legal department? Not to request money or so, but to inform them on the correct procedures... Under German law, any of the authors could send them a bill for the usage of an incorrect licensed and attributed pic. Should be something about 300 € (500 $) per pic. --jergen (talk) 08:22, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyone can just call BSA and ask for legal dept.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 09:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * All of the identified images are from Commons. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 10:22, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Pageview stats
After a recent request, I added WikiProject Scouting to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at WikiProject Scouting/Popular pages.

The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the toolserver tool. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr.Z-man 02:09, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Fawzy Farghaly
Fawzy Farghaly the former Regional Director for the World Scout Bureau, Arab Regional Office. passed away http://www.scouting4peace.org/forum/topics/fawzy-farghaly-the-former انا لله و انا اليه راجعون .. القائد فوزى فرغلى فى رحاب الله ببالغ الاسى والحزن تنعى مؤسسه الكشفية من اجل السلام الاخ والاب والقائد والصديق القائد ...فوزى فرغلى فى رحاب الله. ستظل دائما دكراك فى قلوبنا http://www.scouting4peace.org/forum/topics/fawzy-farghaly-the-former —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.14.169.171 (talk) 04:06, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there enough to write an article? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 07:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The Scout Association in the United Kingdom
The Scout Association was moved to The Scout Association in the United Kingdom. Discuss on the talk page. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 15:26, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Chief Scout of Jamaica
The Governor General of Jamaica, Sir Patrick Allen is now the Chief Scout of Jamaica. Sir Patrick was invested by the Scout Association of Jamaica at a ceremony at Kings House on Friday morning, September 4, 2009. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 07:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Knots in different languages
Somewhat off topic, but here goes nothing... I'm currently writing/editing some articles regarding knots in several language versions of Wikipedia, but sometimes find it hard to tie my writings together, inter-wiki wise... Most printed dictionaries only include rather a few names of knots, and only give a translation in two languages. I've had no luck finding the information on the Internet, either. If any of you fellow Wikipedians can share a link to an online-dictionary specialized in knots and ropewalks and such, it would be of great help! I know it's a slightly weird request, but there's dictionaries for most any field of work on the 'Net, so why not knots... :-) For obvious reasons I'm mainly interested in translations between languages I speak myself, i.e. English, Swedish, German and Danish. Thanks! –Tommy Kronkvist (talk), 22:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC).
 * I've found the pages at Siempre Scout helpful for Spanish names of knots. It's not a dictionary, but there are pictures so it's easy to be sure you've got the right knot. Kingbird (talk) 15:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

List-defined references
The recent software update include an update to the footnotes system. You can now bunch all of the citations together under the References heading and then call them in the text as needed. See WP:LDR. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 16:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Article lookover please
I've just made a stub on Simon C. Yew, an important figure in the development of scouting in Sabah - but I'm interested in him more for his art and know nothing about scouting. Could someone look over what I've produced and check for howlers please? The source I used says he received his warrant in 1923 from BP but I assume everyone did (through the post, a certificate signed by him maybe?), and that it doesn't mean he was personally presented with it by BP, for example; and would I be correct in assuming a scout leader is the same as a scout master? (the redirect would suggest so!). Many thanks Jasper33 (talk) 18:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * A Scout leader is any adult involved in Scouting. A Scoutmaster is the person in charge of the program side of the unit/troop and is generally considered the primary adult who "runs" the troop from the adult side; keep in mind Scouting is "youth led" under adult guidance. I'll look at the article. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 19:05, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. Apols for failing to capitalise! Jasper33 (talk) 19:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Today's featured article
Is Boy Scouts of America membership controversies. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 10:00, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This should be interesting.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 11:21, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, yeah, like the Chinese curse... Maybe it won't be so bad, but god that gets old... Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 14:29, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It surprised me that it got chosen for the front page, someone likes fireworks it seems (I would expect more a feature article review for it). I'm keeping a bit of an eye on it as it is an article I've contributed to in the past (and it is the second article in two weeks that I've done work on that has made Today's featured article (though I did a lot more on the other)).--Erp (talk) 16:10, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Image renaming
File moving was recently re-enabled for admins, thus images can now be renamed. I am working through this and am up to "T". See Scouting logo rename requests

If you want to request a rename, add at the top of the the file page.

Admins can add importScript('User:Splarka/ajaxfilemove.js'); to their JS to add a speedy move tab that will make the move using the rename media name and then remove the template.

Some problem requests:


 * Target exists and is a variant
 * File:RussiaGGemblemcopy.jpg → File:Russian Association of Girl Scouts.jpg
 * File:Council of Scout Associations in Bosnia and Herzegovina.png → File:Savjet izviđačkih organizacija u Bosni i Hercegovini.png
 * File:Fédération du Scoutisme Tchadien purple.png → File:Fédération du Scoutisme Tchadien.jpg
 * Suggested differing names in one of each pair. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 12:40, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Unclear as to the proper name
 * File:Scouting in Samoa.jpg
 * File:Scouting in Sark C.I.jpg

---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 03:23, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

File:Scouting in...
We have some images named "Scouting in..." For example, the way File:Scouting in Samoa.jpg is used implies it is the primary emblem of Scouting and Guiding in Samoa. We should get these tagged for rename with proper names. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 10:27, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but we need to know what the proper name is, like in the example you list it only "Samoa" and there's nothing that to me obviously tells you what it's for, not even Scouting.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 16:04, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Scout Association of the People's Republic of China
Thanks to Phips' legwork, we now have http://sac.clubspaces.com/PageCustom.aspx?id=28&o=269194. Whatever WOSM acknowledges, the People's Republic of China does now have multiple and originally separate Scouting activities within its borders, more so than many African countries. It doesn't make any sense for us to overlook the facts on the ground, just because WOSM doesn't say it's so. I propose that it is time for us to move the People's Republic of China from the "Countries with no Scouting organization" list to the "Other status" or the "'Potential member countries' listed by WOSM" list (though that one isn't strictly true until acknowledged), and change the maps and templates to reflect it accordingly. Thoughts? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 03:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And this members section looks like the Asia-Pacific Region is supporting them. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 03:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No objections/discussion after a week? I'm gonna go ahead and change the stuff, then. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 14:47, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Scoutlink (The Scout Association)
Trying to figoure out Scoutlink (The Scout Association). Searching http://www.scouts.org.uk, the last mention is of awards in 2007. Every hit on http://www.scoutbase.org.uk is the same or for ScoutLink IRC. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 19:13, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * There are a few related hits on scoutbase.org.uk, eg the census form for 2009 or this awards' list of March 2008 . The program is seemingly still active.
 * A copy of the Scoutlink Support Pack can be found at . The 2nd Northallerton (Friarage Scoutlink) is one of the very few groups I could find in the internet. --jergen (talk) 09:10, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Boy Scouts of America 100th Year Celebration
I received this e-mail, is it worth an article? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 14:19, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

- Join Our Nationwide 100th Anniversary Kick-Off Rally‏ From: Boy Scouts of America 100th Year Celebration (BSA_100_Year_Celebration@scouting.org) Sent: Wed 11/25/09 1:39 PM

Join Our Nationwide 100th Anniversary Kick-Off Rally!

Just one month to go!

The year we celebrate our centennial and begin our next century of service.

One of the most exciting moments in our history.

To jump start the celebration, we're bringing together Scouting enthusiasts from coast-to-coast for a nationwide 100th Anniversary Kick-Off Rally. Hosted by AT&T CEO and Chairman and 100th Anniversary Chair Randall Stephenson, National President John Gottschalk, National Commissioner Tico Perez, and me, Chief Scout Executive Bob Mazzuca, we'll recognize your important role and the difference you make - everyday. Through this live audiocast, we'll share important information about how you can be part of the 100th Anniversary. We'll also answer some of your questions (submitted in advance through the link below). Our goal is to rally more than a quarter of a million Scouting enthusiasts - the largest single gathering of its kind in BSA history.

What: 100th Anniversary Kick-Off Audiocast Rally

Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009

Time:

8:00 - 8:30 p.m. Eastern

7:00 - 7:30 p.m. Central

6:00 - 6:30 p.m. Mountain

5:00 - 5:30 p.m. Pacific

How: RSVP by clicking on "100th Anniversary Kick-Off Rally" at http://audiocast.scouting.org. That's also where you'll find the link to the audiocast on December 10th.

You are the reason this great movement works - the passionate supporters and boots on the ground serving youth across America. The 100th Anniversary celebration is meant to inspire, excite, and engage the entire Scouting family. Join us as we embark upon this once-in-a-lifetime journey.

Save the date! And, tune in on December 10th. -


 * Boy Scouts of America centennial ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 14:57, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, and I even worked on it. I am retarded. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 19:02, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


 * ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 19:25, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Stepping down as ScoutingWikiProject Lead Coordinator
It's become obvious that my duties as a sitting arbitrator do not allow me to spend sufficient time in my duties as our lead coordinator. I am a founding member of our project and have served as lead coordinator since the beginning, which was 4 years ago in Jan 2006. Sometimes change is good. I just updated WikiProject Scouting/Members and we now have more former/inactive members than active (defined as editing within 6 months). We need new blood. Some of coordinator positions are empty too as far as users having quit totally or not editing Scouting articles. The drop in new users is a wiki-wide issue. I talked to User:Bduke and I'm sure he'll oversee the handling of electing a new lead coord. Anyone who wants to fill this spot as lead coord please indicate your desire here. I've really enjoyed being so involved in this project and will continue to do so, but just in a different role. I'll still do the monthly portal updates too. <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 02:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank oyu for your important contribution to the project. I didn't realize until now that we started four years ago. --jergen (talk) 08:37, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

First, let me add my thanks to Rlevse for an excellent job as lead coordinator over four years. At the end of the first and second years it fell to my lot as coordinator of project mediation to organise a kind of election that resulted in Rlevse continuing to serve. At the end of the 3rd year I think we all just forgot to do that. Now he is stepping down. I therefore ask for people to step forward and volunteer to take over the role. This time Rlevse is not going to continue. I personally know two other arbitrators and I know just how busy they are and how difficult that role is. I suggest that this request for nominations continues to the end of the year and if we have more than one candidate we discuss the candidates in early January and try to come to a consensus without having a strict election. I hope Rlevse will continue to serve until the end of the year. Please nominate yourself below or add someone who you persuaded to serve and have their agreement.


 * 1) (add name here).

If people do not like this procedure, please let me know here as soon as possible. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  09:42, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the Scout handshake
Having joined the Scouting project about two years ago, I extend my appreciation to Rlevse for his support and making me comfortable in adding/editing a few articles here and there. His leadership will be missed, but I'm sure new blood will come forth. -- btphelps (talk) (contribs) 19:48, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Nominations
Editors interested in becoming the lead coordinator should nominate themselves by adding their name to the list:


 * User:Gadget850 - Presidentman (talk) Random Picture of the Day 21:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Why did you add yourself and Gadget850? <span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * See my talk he said he's only adding Gadget850.<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 21:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Second the nomination of Gadget Purplebackpack89 (talk) 02:42, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Third the nom of Gadget if he will take the reins. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 13:49, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I fourth Gadget's nomination. Considering the apparent consensus coming up here, I think the formal election in January will be just that: a formality.  Wim van Dorst  (talk)  22:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC).
 * I fifth the nomination. Someone's gotta be our Chief Scout. Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Election
The election will be held the first week of January.

First, a Happy New Year to all members of the Project and a massive thanks to User:Rlevse for his work as lead coordinator for the project since it started. I was pushed into having a role in the appointment of the lead coordinator way back, I think because of my role as the Project mediation person. Elections are a kind of mediation I guess. We are in general a happy lot and little mediation is required. This is the case here, so I declare User:Gadget850 to be appointed our lead coordinator for 2010 without dissent. Congratulations, Ed. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  20:40, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Scout prayer
Could someone take a look at this article. I have just cleaned up some vandalism that has been in the article since mid November. It has been tagged as having no sources since 2007. I am not sure where to look for sources but they must be out there. It is also tagged with notability concerns. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  03:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Very BSA centric. There are Scout prayers in many languages: German (4 variants out of many); French - Belgium/Congo ; French - France   ; Spanish ; etc.
 * I'm not sure if this collection meets the notability guidelines. --jergen (talk) 08:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought it was rather UK centric and the Rover Prayer gets most google hits from Australia. I think you may be right about notability, but if we could get some sources, that might be clearer. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  10:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that the collection probably doesn't meets the notability guidelines. I think it is best to rename and rewrite it to Scout prayer book. An article about the different types of Scout prayer books and how they used around the world. --Egel Reaction? 10:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that it was UK-centric ... or at least English centric. I like the article and added some references. I think it should be copyedited and expanded. --evrik (talk) 16:00, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

RfC: Wandervogel
There is some discussion wether an alleged connection to the Hippie movement should be included in the article Wandervogel. Please comment on Talk:Wandervogel. --jergen (talk) 17:10, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Koshare Indian Dancers
Koshare Indian Dancers is on today's DYK, thanks Randy! (didn't know where to post this)
 * Good job Chris!<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 15:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the huge load of work!
Over the last few weeks, Gadget850 has improved virtually every Scout image on the Wikipedia, turning all jpgs into pngs, making all backgrounds transparent and fixing licensing tags, easily a thousand images and more. I am a firm believer that images convey information and thoughts that words alone cannot, that they enhance our understanding and preserve our history. Thank you so much! Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 19:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

László Nagy
I received this from the World Scout Bureau "Dear Chris, Thanks for checking.The information came from an internal memo from the director general of the World Scout Foundation, where I am its chairman. The memo has been pasted below. Sincerely, Lars Kolind, Chairman * www.kolindkuren.dk * www.twitter.com/kolind Here is the memo:  Laszlo Nagy RIP From: John Geoghegan  Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 at 9:55pm Your Majesty, Dear Members of the Board It is my sad duty to inform you that our good friend and former Secretary General of WOSM, Laszlo Nagy passed away this evening. Luc has just called me with this news. As soon as we know what the arrangements are, we will keep you informed. John Geoghegan" Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 12:29, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Orienteering
You all probably know that orienteering is a basic Scoutcraft skill, and that there are Orienteering requirements for First Class and an Orienteering merit badge. However, if you go to the orienteering wikipedia article, it focuses mostly on the sport of orienteering. That is why I have created Orienteering (scoutcraft), which focuses on orienteering, but not as a sport. If this article sticks, I'm going to redirect most of the Scout-related links to orienteering to it rather than to the big orienteering article. Feel free to add images, text, etc, and give me your thoughts. Purplebackpack89 (talk) 17:26, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

FAR
Boy Scouts of America membership controversies has been nom'd for FAR at: Featured article review/Boy Scouts of America membership controversies/archive2<span style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> — <b style="color:#060;">Rlevse</b> • Talk  • 15:04, 30 December 2009 (UTC)