Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Archive 2017

Recipients of the Bronze Wolf Award
I am starting to correct information not in the present iteration of the WOSM URL. In the course of cleaning this list up the last few months, I am finding either the original typist or the WOSM source to have frequent misspellings, initialisms where full names are needed, and incorrect family-personal name order. The office/title/role information is totally lacking from the present iteration of the WOSM URL. It may have been the editor's legwork, and it too has errors. I am fixing those now-my question is, should I put citations from each article in the list, or no? My worries are that 1) it would crowd the references at bottom and 2) it would obscure the media references to the attainment of the award. Thoughts?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 07:39, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Auld Lang Syne?
A discussion has started at Talk:Auld_Lang_Syne, I can't answer, but I am now deletion-skittish so I cite-tagged it. Thoughts? Please weigh in there.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:38, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Scout hall (not to be confused with Scout Hall)
When I was in Australia in December, I finally discovered what they and the UK mean by "Scout Hall"-what a wonderful idea, a Scout meeting place, owned and maintained by local Scout groups, and sometimes rented out for other events! US and Japan need to follow suit! Would one of our commonwealth members care to write an article on the concept of Scout halls? Since we have articles on troop and group system, districts and councils, but not this ubiquitous idea. I love the idea but I don't know enough about it to write informatively.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:33, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Are they notable? -- Bduke   (Discussion)  19:24, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe not individually, but as a concept, yes, like Scout troop, Scout method, Patrol, Scout district, etc.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:38, 17 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Agree. I am surprised that the USA and Japan do not know this concept. But Scouting in the USA differs in more ways from what is common in the world. --Egel Reaction? 10:44, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Now done - any further contributions welcome, especially references - I think I was lucky to find one! Alansplodge (talk) 20:00, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Your reference is not independent of Scouting. There may be other references, but we need something better that that one. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  00:58, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The concept of a Scout hall is relatively unknown in the United States, since each unit requires an organization to sponsor it; part of sponsoring the unit involves providing space for the unit to meet (see Boy Scouts of America). For example, many Troops and Packs are sponsored by local schools and places of worship, which usually provide space inside the building – e.g. the school cafeteria – for the unit to meet. The BSA actually owns relatively little in the way of meeting space; most real estate holdings are held as camps and High Adventure Bases, while the rest are scout stores and offices for employees at the district, council, region, and national levels. — Jkudlick &#x2693; t &#x2693; c &#x2693; s 05:13, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
 * We have sponsored Groups in the UK too, but there is also an option to have an unsponsored or "open" Scout Group, and these are more likely to have their own hall. However, some sponsored Groups also have their own building in the grounds of the church or school that sponsors them. Alansplodge (talk) 17:14, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
 * However, I am not sure Hawke Scout Hall passes notability. Is it a historic structure on a list, or should it be merged into something?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:11, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
 * This article has twice been prodded. The claim to notability rests essentially on the last two references which show it is mentioned in a local history and that performances are held there. This is pretty thin. The other references support material but really do not support notability. I would suggest merge to Scout hall but I do not think that is really notable either. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:20, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

another deletion "debate" *sigh*
Leslie R. Mitchell - Bronze Wolves are notable per WP:ANYBIO, but... Now I know why Randy burned out. :( --Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 16:05, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, get those references you found into the article. You have started a lot of articles. Wikipedia is tougher now than when we started editing. I think you need to spend more time getting good sources before you start articles. I am not convinced that Bronze Wolves are notable. There still has to be reliable external sources that talk about them getting it. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:07, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Done! I think the question is not the notability of the Bronze Wolf itself. WP:ANYBIO, point 2 says "The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field." Is the BW widely recognized in Scouting? Yes. Is the BW part of the enduring historical record in Scouting? Yes. Does the BW recognize those who have made a widely recognized contribution in Scouting? Yes. I believe the WikiPowersThatBe, is a rare flash of wisdom, added this to protect those in obscure or less-well-known fields. Scouting is the largest youth movement in the world, neither obscure nor less-well-known, but the same principles apply and in fact are magnified because of the large scale, compared to say cliff-diving or pipefitting. If they have awards, they are covered. This is the sole award in World Scouting, so it is covered by Wiki notability policy. I personally can't see notability in professional videogamers or single episodes of television shows, but they are protected by Wiki notability policies. That should be the focus, I submit.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:39, 15 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Interesting ...--evrik (talk) 16:56, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * How so?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 22:53, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the Bronze Wolf award is definitely notable. — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 05:26, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I added some info to the Bronze Wolf Award and references. I removed the hatnotes as well, although HighKing re-added them. — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 04:16, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I've added some extra details and refs, and created sections, so hopefully the article stands up for itself a little better now. Alansplodge (talk) 20:03, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Something we can use?
Going through old documents I found "Three Scouts were the first Australians to walk unaided to the South Pole. Standing at the Pole with the World Scout flag on New Year’s day 1998 are, left to right, Ian Brown, Keith Williams, and Peter Treseder. It took them 60 days to reach the Pole, pulling all their food and gear with them. “We gained our zest for adventure in Scouts. Scouting is fun and you learn to adventure safely,” they said in a message broadcast from Antarctica to enthusiastic Scouts at the National Jamboree in Australia." Is this something useful?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 06:48, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Scouting in the Antarctic ? --Egel Reaction? 17:23, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you, forgot we had that!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 17:26, 28 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I have given the Scouting in the Antarctic article a bit of an overhaul, but further contributions welcome!  Alansplodge (talk) 20:12, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Tasmania (Scouts Australia).svg
Re: does anyone know anything about moving images back to en:Wikipedia? I've asked the original author to move it, thus far no response.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:10, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

split JOTA, JOTI and JOTT
I propose that these should be split from the WSJ article as they are annual and do not correspond with the WSJs.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:58, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Support. Naraht (talk) 16:29, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Support. Egel Reaction? 20:31, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * So, what shall we call it? JOTA, JOTI and JOTT? Spell out? Split the 3 apart?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:20, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I traced it back, these were originally 3 separate stub articles 10 years ago, merged without discussion by now-gone user:Horus Kol. Shall I just go back to their pre-merge history and update?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:33, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * sure...Naraht (talk) 12:53, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * should JOTA, JOTI and JOTT remain on World Scout Jamboree with Main article at the top each section or should they be removed as the content is basically the same as the main article? — Jordan Mussi Talk 19:21, 23 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Apologies. I have only just seen this. I do not support splitting all this articles from WSJ. JOTT in particular would be ripe for deletion because it clearly does not meet notability requirements. JOTI is very similar but it it does have one independent source. We have had far too many AfD debates recently. That should tell us that we need to be more careful about meeting notability. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  21:08, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Should we merge all 3 back, or JOTT in particular?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:55, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I think it is beter merge or move JOTA, JOTI and JOTT to Jamboree (Scouting), if they need to be merged.--Egel Reaction? 12:06, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Category:National Scout jamboree (Boy Scouts of America)

 * I've been merging individual national jamboree articles into a parent national jamboree article; just found this cat with 3 or 4 BSA national jamboree articles, I say they are not individually notable and should be merged, but what do you folks think?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:21, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Admission of girls in WOSM member programs
Do we have a chart or map indicating which members of WOSM admit girls into their programs? I would imagine that there would be three colors for the map, 1) No participation:Saudi Arabia 2) Partial participation, i.e. some members of the umbrella organization: Austria or some Programs: USA 3) Full Participation:Australia.Naraht (talk) 13:49, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
 * But what to do with countries like India? The Bharat Scouts and Guides (BSG) is a member of the World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts and the World Organization of the Scout Movement. The organization consists of almost totally separate boys and girls wings with different programs. --Egel Reaction? 15:50, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I would say 4 colors, full membership but separated.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 08:46, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


 * There are far more than four different variants of this, especially within the so called SAGNOs (Scout And Guide National Organizations) and SAGAs (Scout And Guide Associations). In my national WOSM federation (Ring deutscher Pfadfinderverbände), each of the three member orgs admits girls within the same programs as boys but has a different approach concerning international membership: In the DPSG, everybody is a member of WOSM; in the VCP (SAGA), everybody is a member of WAGGGS and WOSM; the BdP (SAGA) has a split membership: males --> WOSM, females --> WAGGGS.
 * Concerning Austria (SAGNO): The program is exactly the same for boys and girls, most groups are mixed, but terms differ (eg. Guides/Späher and Ranger/Rover) and international membership is split. --jergen (talk) 09:32, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * PS: ANNEX to Conference Circular 9, 22nd European Scout Conference: Representation of Individual Members of SAGNOs in WOSM Statutory Organs may clarify the approach of WOSM on these matters. --jergen (talk) 09:38, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Crosby Scout and Guide Marina Club - PROD'ed. Can we work on a merge?
asks "Crosby Scout and Guide Marina Club - PROD'ed. Can we work on a merge?" I have an Australian professor friend whose go-to question is "But is it notable?" ;) I looked at it and don't find notability, though it is a nice idea. What did you have in mind?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:42, 2 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Couldn't we merge the text about the club into Scouting in North West England, and the text about the marina into Crosby, Merseyside? Alansplodge (talk) 11:41, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * D'oh! I didn't see that it's already there! Alansplodge (talk) 11:47, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I've pulled the prod tag and merge-tagged it. Thanks for your hard work on Scout articles!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:45, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Haydn Dimmock article
I have done some work on our Haydn Dimmock article; would somebody kindly take a look and see if it can be "de-stubbed" please? Also Dimmock's place and date of birth remain a mystery - does anybody have any idea where I can look for them? Alansplodge (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2017 (UTC)


 * His place of birth is Luton: . For more information, you should contact the Hertfordshire County Scout Museum. --jergen (talk) 17:16, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you kindly Jergen, I have already quoted from that source but annoyingly, Google Books only shows a few words at a time and that part had eluded me. Further Googling has brought to light his birth date, but I should have thought of the Hertfordshire County Scout Museum as I am employed by Hertfordshire Scout County! I shall drop Frank an email at the museum and see if he has anything further. Thanks again for your help. Alansplodge (talk) 19:38, 19 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I moved the article some classes up ;) IMO, it's B-class. --jergen (talk) 07:37, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you - I don't often go from Stub to B in one go! Alansplodge (talk) 18:44, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Tweak the project and portal pages a bit?
With the hardest working technical human dynamo now retired, and maybe a bit lower overall activity level, some of the project and portal pages are starting to look dated / like ghost towns. Maybe we could do a few things to fix that where it would not cause any loss of content. A few possibilities:

What do you think?
 * Put notes on the other project/ portal talk pages that point them / suggest them to post on this page instead, saying that the action is at this page.
 * Delete content that is "current tracking" where such is no longer being done.
 * For inactive award / recognition lists, just note the time frame that they were from, and note that that particular program is not currently being used.
 * Other similar tweaks where they do not cause loss of content

Sincerely,  North8000  (talk) 15:39, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Support, but I just started a new job, so go for it!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:46, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Congrats on the new job Kintetsubuffalo! — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 20:47, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, from me too...I forgot to say that!  North8000  (talk) 22:24, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, my friends! 5 months in Japan without is rough!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:26, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

This is one of my new textbooks! Yeah!
This is one of my new textbooks! Yeah!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 09:03, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Wow! I'm guessing that it's in the US because it doesn't mention Guides. What age group is it intended for? Alansplodge (talk) 12:22, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Japan, but Oxford University Press, 8-12 year-olds.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:01, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Alansplodge (talk) 17:25, 13 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Are there any credits given for the image? It despicts Scouts and Guides from my association and is at least ten years old, judging from the scarves. I'm quite sure, I've seen the picture before. --jergen (talk) 07:40, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll check tomorrow!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:37, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Andreas Rentz/staff/Getty News Images--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:49, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems right. Getty had some staff on a recent national jamboree. --jergen (talk) 14:24, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Kintetsubuffalo, congrats! Did you write this freelance or as an employee? — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done)`
 * btphelps LOL not mine! I always capitalize "Scouting"! ;) Thanks!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:41, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

So, when will BSA admit girls?
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/boy-scouts-cub-scouts-begin-accepting-transgender-children-n714471

"Scouting is Committed to Serving our Community You may have seen in the news that the Boy Scouts of America made an announcement regarding how the BSA considers transgender youth in our program. The following statement was released: As one of America's largest youth-serving organizations, the Boy Scouts of America continues to work to bring the benefits of our programs to as many children, families and communities as possible. "While we offer a number of programs that serve all youth, Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting are specifically designed to meet the needs of boys. For more than 100 years, the Boy Scouts of America, along with schools, youth sports and other youth organizations, have ultimately deferred to the information on an individual's birth certificate to determine eligibility for our single-gender programs. However, that approach is no longer sufficient as communities and state laws are interpreting gender identity differently, and these laws vary widely from state to state. "Starting today, we will accept and register youth in the Cub and Boy Scout programs based on the gender identity indicated on the application. Our organization's local councils will help find units that can provide for the best interest of the child. "The BSA is committed to identifying program options that will help us truly serve the whole family, and this is an area that we will continue to thoughtfully evaluate to bring the benefits of Scouting to the greatest number of youth possible - all while remaining true to our core values, outlined in the Scout Oath and Law." As one of America's largest youth-serving organizations, the Boy Scouts of America continues to work to bring the benefits of our programs to as many children, families and communities as possible. Thank you for your steady support of Scouting. Together we will continue to accomplish great things for the youth in our communities." So, when will BSA admit girls? It's past time-every decent country has done so. It can't be near the hurdle this must have been.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:20, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * They already do, in the Venturing Program.Naraht (talk) 13:49, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Not at all the same, and not in line with other countries. In 1999 at the World Scout Conference in Durban, South Africa, Resolution 4/99 was adopted by the Conference on Gender Balance in Scouting, urging all National Scout Organizations to adopt gender balance programs. Bahrain, Barbados, Botswana, Kuwait, Lesotho, Liberia, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Swaziland, United Arab Emirates, Yemen, and BSA.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 08:45, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * That's the complete list?Naraht (talk) 14:47, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

I'll bet that it doesn't happen for a long time. Mostly because it would take a huge effort and a lot of work and so would need about 90% buy-in to tackle that.  North8000  (talk) 13:27, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


 * To end speculations on WOSM's policy: Policy on Girls and boys, women and men within the Scout movement. --jergen (talk) 16:56, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
 * From that very source: "As a result of that evolution, the Constitution of WOSM, in 1977, defined Scouting as a movement for “young people” without any distinction of gender; since that date, Scouting has addressed itself equally to females and males, at all levels of the Movement." Abel (talk) 16:23, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Seems very unfair to assume that all girls scouts want to join the Boy Scouts of America. Abel (talk) 16:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think that anyone is. Naraht (talk) 16:34, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Recent changes to Scouts Canada
The recent changes to Scouts Canada give me a feeling of advertising. Part of it may be useful, but sentences like "Scouts Canada is in the process of actively increasing its membership nation-wide." are clearly POV (and contrafactual). All edits were made by User:Idholness - a new user who seems very concentrated on SC.

Before rolling back the article I'd like to have a second/third/... opinion on this. --jergen (talk) 08:04, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Advertising? No. Not my thing. Definitely more contextual in expanding on the facts. The sentence quoted above originally spoke to doubling membership by 2014; we're at the end of 2016 and that "doubling" of membership did not take place. Ergo I softened the context. I wasn't aware earlier this week that it is preferred to do a pile of edits all at once in one major change, versus multiple minor ones. I can understand that in the sense of Configuration Management systems where you checkout a file, make a pile of changes, then check it back in. Does that clarify things? Idholness (talk) 14:20, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I try not to touch that article if I don't have to, as it has historically been guarded by bitey trolls. Looking at it, Jergen's version reads cleaner.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:13, 9 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Looks like copy and pasting plagiarism from an older version of the Scouts Canada By-law, Policies, and Procedures. Abel (talk) 16:52, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Recent move of Federación de Scouts de España
Federación de Scouts-Exploradores de España (ASDE) was recently moved to Federación de Scouts de España. I'd like to move the article back to "Federación de Scouts-Exploradores de España" since this seems to be the legal name of the organization - unless we can get hold of their by-laws stating the opposite. Or should the article be renamed to "ASDE - Scouts de España" which is the branding?

Further input on this question is welcome. Please feel free to discuss on Talk:Federación de Scouts de España. --jergen (talk) 12:08, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Trail Life USA
A new editor is removing Scouting from this article claiming copyright infringement-please advise--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:35, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I also left a message at the editor's talk page. If the editor ceases these actions, then we can let it be. Otherwise, WP:ANEW is the place to go. — Jkudlick &#x2693; t &#x2693; c &#x2693; s 11:49, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I have changed "Scouting organization" to "non-aligned Scouting organization". Perhaps that will less trigger overly protecting people. --Egel Reaction? 08:51, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

dynamic IP 1.129....
This editor switches IPs several times a day, and edits a lot of Scout articles. Some are okay, some are questionable. I reverted the one on WOSM member countries as OR, can someone look at his edit on WOSM?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:04, 31 March 2017 (UTC)


 * See Talk:World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement

*sigh*
Please have a look at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style ...--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 01:29, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Id4abel is being contentious and deliberately obtuse by bloating and tagbombing WikiProject Scouting/MOS. I have reverted to the last clean edit and will be monitoring the situation.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:15, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I have listed it at Requests_for_page_protection--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:27, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Note to other editors-Id4abel is a troll who has been shot down by 6 other editors regarding just such Scouting nitpicking. Please ignore the troll.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:38, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Fresh trolling at Template talk:Scoutorg BSA :( --Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 20:29, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

FYI Northern Tier
It looks like someone knowledgeable on the topic but less so on Wikipedia worked on it. Inadevertantly cause a problem (setting the image up for deletion) which I undid.

File:Northern_Tier_National_High_Adventure_Bases.png

User_talk:Gadget850

Northern Tier National High Adventure Bases

User talk:Northern Tier

 North8000  (talk) 01:42, 11 April 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not the editor who originally tried to put up the new logo so I'm not sure what mistakes they made, but I just uploaded the newest logo that supersedes the previous one.  Deflagro   Contribs/Talk 03:07, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the effort, but I think you made it worse. Now both logos are slated for deletion. Ideally it should be uploaded as a new image. Or from this point, undoing the overwrite.   But giving them what they are asking for would at least save the new one.   Sincerely,  North8000  (talk) 13:08, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Admittedly it's been a little bit since I have worked on logos, but I thought (and have done so multiple times) that the procedure for uploading a new logo was to upload it as the same file and then the old version would get deleted. Since it supersedes the old logo it was to keep it all on one file history as in essence both versions are the same logo even though the actual visuals had changed. The old logo should be deleted anyway as there is not a reason for the historical logo (per Logos). I can't find specifics in the guides about new versions of logos, but that it is the way I've previously done it for Scouting articles. I did neglect to include the source rational so I updated that aspect of it.  Deflagro   Contribs/Talk 16:00, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Asked for clarification on how to handle the logo. Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions  Deflagro   Contribs/Talk 16:17, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your efforts. I wasn't purporting to know any official procedure. Wikipedia always make fair use images into a big struggle and I also noticed that they are completely different.   So pragmatically speaking, having the old one in place while the new one is fighting its way through the gauntlet/hazing might be better. Thanks for your efforts.  North8000  (talk) 17:30, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Popular pages report
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Princess Mako of Akishino
Fumihito, Prince Akishino and Princess Mako participated in the Agoonoree on August 12, 2016. She has also participated in other Scouting activities, but the way her article is written, it's hard to tie that in. Suggestions?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 09:46, 2 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Just to note that we have an Agoonoree article. Alansplodge (talk) 22:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

increase/decrease in membership?
Should we add increase/decrease in membership to the infobox parameters, like they use for elections? (▲, ) Most countries are on the rise, but Canada, New Zealand... regrettably, today I had to add Scout_Association_of_Japan... usually updates the numbers, what do you think?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 08:42, 12 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't do it. The data are not very reliable, even in Western countries with regular updates, where numbers tend to be a matter of PR: the bigger, the better.
 * WOSM's last accessible census dates fom 2014, but the national numbers are partially much older, going back to the 1980s (Yemen, Comoros, Dominica, Morocco). WAGGGS' data are generally newer, but spread also over at least one decade. And there aren't any data for everybody else, neither WFIS nor WOIS nor UISGE nor ... --jergen (talk) 10:56, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Next Secretary General Announced
"I'm confident Scouting continues to hold a solution for youth development in the 21st century. I look forward to working with World Scouting team to expand the Movement and deepen its social impact, while continuing to create a better future for children and young people.” - Ahmad Alhendawi

We are pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. Alhendawi as our next Secretary General, the youngest in the history of our organisation.

We look forward to welcoming him back to the #Scouts family next year! Read more about his work and life in https://www.scout.org/nextsgannouncement

FYI USA LDS and older scout BSA programs
FYI: Got this from our top council officials: "On May 11, 2017, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints announced it will no longer utilize the Venturing and Varsity Scout programs of the Boy Scouts of America, effective January 1, 2018. The Church made this change to best address the specific needs of young men beyond the age of 14 in their educational programs. It is our understanding that the Varsity and Venturing programs will be replaced by programs and activities run by the Church." ......."The Church remains committed to using the Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs."  North8000  (talk)

"The Indonesian government has suspended support for the Boy Scouts movement after its chairman expressed support for Hizb-ut Tahrir, the banned pro-Islamic caliphate group".
Not so good news for Indonesian Scouts perhaps. According to WOSM, of the current 28 million Scouts worldwide, 21 million of them are in Indonesia, due to Scouting being a compulsory, in-school program for youth.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:59, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/indonesian-boy-scout-leader-called-for-sharia-law/news-story/889feb92be1eefc9f06412fb6387363a Indonesian Boy Scout leader called for sharia law

The Indonesian government has suspended support for the Boy Scouts movement after its chairman expressed support for Hizb-ut Tahrir, the banned pro-Islamic caliphate group.

Youth and Sports Minister Imam Nahrawi said yesterday ­financial assistance for the Scouts movement, known as Pramuka, had been suspended pending clarification from its chairman Adhyaksa Dault, a former sports minister, over his presence at a Hizb-ut Tahrir rally in 2013.

“The bottom line is: all civic, youth and student organisations, managed by anti-Pancasila officials will not receive financial support by us,” the minister said, referring to the Indonesian state ideology.

Indonesian President Joko Widodo enacted a regulation this month that allows the government to disband all civic bodies deemed to be anti-Pancasila.

The new authority was swiftly exercised last week, when the government disbanded Hizb-ut Tahrir in a move seen as calculated to stem the momentum of an Islamist opposition force ahead of the 2019 election.

The Indonesian chapter of Hizb-ut Tahrir is part of an international organisation committed to removing all governments in the Muslim world in favour of a pan-Islamic theocracy. In Indonesia, it is estimated to have up to 3.5 million members.

Hizb ut-Tahir is banned in many countries, including Germany, China and Egypt.

The group vowed to challenge the ban in the Constitutional Court, Indonesia’s highest judicial authority.

Mr Adhyaksa, a minister under president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, admitted he attended the 2013 rally and gave an interview to a Hizb-ut Tahrir videographer. Footage of the interview has gone viral since the Islamist group was disbanded.

“I came as an invitee, not as a member or a sympathiser,” he told The Australian. “As a religious nationalist, I support every religious movement aimed at building youths’ spirituality. If I am invited, I will come. It is heartless to accuse me of being anti-Pancasila just because I came to a Hizb ut-Tahrir event.

“I have written a letter to Mr Imam Nahrawi. I hope to see him personally and explain myself as well as ask for his apology. Check my resume. Check my life’s work. I was a student activist, I became a minister for five years. If anyone wants to change Pancasila I will be at the frontline fighting them.”

But the video showed Mr ­Adhyaksa expressing support for Islamic theocracy to be implemented in Indonesia.

“Caliphate is the teaching of the Prophet. If God is willing, with or without our help, the caliphate will rise. Our ways may be different but our goal is the same. That is why I’m here,” he told the interviewer at the rally while holding and waving a Hizb-ut Tahrir flag. “We keep making small changes. We have to make big changes. World order must be changed. We must impose sharia.”

Asked if he supported Hizb-ut Tahrir’s goal of a caliphate in Indonesia, Mr Adhyaksa responded: “Of course I do. I wouldn’t have come if I disagree. Allahu akbar (God is great).”

the search box on my watchlist isn't working
Most common search strings work, and I can type in words I see on the screen and see them light up. But my most common search string, "scout" automatically turns red, although I have myself made 3 edits on my watchlist to Scouting topics in the last 72 hours. What's afoot?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:57, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

24th World Scout Jamboree
How would you folks feel about submitting this one for page protection to admins? Two years off and it is already getting promotionally fluffed. #'Murica. --Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:32, 22 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, that happened once. It should be sufficent to contact the contributor, who seems to be part of the Jamboree team. If that doesn't work, a direct contact with the Jamboree mamangement team could help; that was quite succesfull concerning unlicensed image usage on the website of the World Scout Moot 2017. --jergen (talk) 09:23, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

new edits to WOSM
Is https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement&curid=104809&diff=799698508&oldid=799697539 a real thing or a vanity edit?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:38, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Could be real, see https://www.scout.org/governance for the organizational structure. Says one member of the WSF board.Naraht (talk) 19:27, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Good news for once!
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/scouts-enjoys-comeback-as-parents-want-kids-off-devices/news-story/271bd8f9f3bd9dcf5f26a5c17388d781 Scouts enjoys comeback as parents want kids off devices--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 00:13, 16 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Clicking Kintetsubuffalo's link took me to a paywall, but doing a Google search for "Scouts Australia news" brought up a readable version. I'm sure there's a technical explanation. Curious that the figure they use is "recruitments" rather than an increase in the total number of members (perhaps there isn't one). Alansplodge (talk) 08:53, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Now girls can be Boy Scouts of America!
On October 11, 2017, the BSA announced that girls would be allowed to become Cub Scouts, starting in 2018, and that in 2019, a separate program for older girls will be available, enabling girls to earn the rank of Eagle Scout.

This is a welcome and needed step that should have happened 35 years ago. This is way more monumental than previous changes. Now American girls have a viable alternative!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 01:45, 12 October 2017 (UTC)


 * As someone who worked hard in the 1960s to get UK Scouting to admit girls at all levels, running several activities where Boy Scouts and Girls Guides worked together, I offer my congratulations to the BSA, but like in other respects they are bit slow to change. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  02:14, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I've been saying for years to anyone who will listen that GSUSA, among others, has blocked BSA from being coed.
 * http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-boy-scouts-girls-20171011-story.html
 * "The Girl Scouts of the USA, which is separate from and independent of the Boy Scouts, has been the primary scouting alternative for girls, and claims a membership of 1.8 million.
 * More recently, a rift has emerged between the two groups.
 * In August, Kathy Hopinkah Hannan, the president of the Girl Scouts, sent a letter to the Boy Scouts of America accusing the group of carrying out a “covert campaign to recruit girls into programs” in the hopes of bolstering declining membership. Hannan wrote that it was “reckless” and shortsighted in “thinking that running a program specifically tailored to boys can simply be translated to girls.”
 * On Wednesday, officials from the Girl Scouts did not immediately respond to a request for comment. However, the organization issued a statement that implicitly challenged the Boy Scouts’ decision without mentioning it.
 * “The need for female leadership has never been clearer or more urgent than it is today — and only Girl Scouts has the expertise to give girls and young women the tools they need for success,” the statement says. “We’re committed to preparing the next generation of women leaders, and we’re here to stay.”
 * One individual close to the Girl Scouts, who requested anonymity to speak freely about the group’s concerns, said that it believes the policy shift by the Boy Scouts is an effort to increase a membership that has declined by nearly a third since 2000."--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:37, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I am not surprised. Talks to merge Scouts and Guides in UK failed because the Guides wanted to continue a program restricted to girls. The Scouts went on to recruit girls, first into the older age sectiosn and later into the younger sections just like BSA is doing.-- Bduke   (Discussion)  06:21, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * My sister says "Aren’t most other countries with Scouts already co-ed? With Girl Guides as an all-girl alternative. Sounds like we’re moving in the right direction, wish this was available 30 years ago! I’ve seen the comments from GSUSA crying about this - sounds like they’re worried they’ll lose membership. Gee, why would they be worried if they’re so great? Been reading message boards and so many other women’s experiences echo mine: boring Girl Scout troop, didn’t do interesting things, watched our brothers go to Philmont, jamborees, and summer camps with independence and longed to join Boy Scouts. If this takes away from GSUSA then it’s their fault. They don’t have any sort of lock on “...the expertise to give girls and young women the tools they need for success...” I got plenty of that through Civil Air Patrol and I was never made to feel different or lesser because I was a girl. It was a very egalitarian organization. And girls can get Eagle Scout!! It’s such a lie that the GSUSA Gold Award is ‘equivalent’ to Eagle Scout. No one outside of college admissions has ever heard of the Gold Award. So happy about this change."--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:54, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * But they are still called ボーイスカウト bōisukauto in Japan, which is weird. So I do wonder what they will call the US org.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 16:37, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The same in Suriname, the coed Scout organisation is named "Boy Scouts van Suriname". --Egel Reaction? 10:37, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Best reactions I've seen-

--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 09:56, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * "GSUSA has their own issues, that aren't as well publicized or known. Frankly, if they weren't selling cookies every year, they'd probably be broke."
 * "In Australia they all do the same activities together and are just Scouts (or Cub Scouts in this case). Some of my best patrol leaders have been the girls, sshhh, don't tell the boys that!"
 * "Portugal both genders since 1976, they sleep separate, but they work together!"
 * "In Sweden we have Scouts.... gender not specified. All Scouts are held to the same promise and laws. No segregation. A Scout, is a Scout, is a Scout."
 * "I'm from the United States and I'm an Eagle Scout and so are my 2 boys. I've been the Scoutmaster of Troop 263 in Half Moon Bay, California since 2008. I started the Police Explorer program at the Foster City police Department 20 years ago. It was coed. I was the Director of the San Mateo County Law Enforcement Explorer Academy for 5 years and that was 20 years ago. Staff and students were coed. I served as the Assistant Course Director for the last 3 years for the National Youth Leadership Course. Staff and students were coed. From my perspective, those little devious girls have been in Scouting for the last 20 friggen years! Who knew? Bottom line for me, I chose those girls to be in positions of authority because they had a better grasp on supervision and management then the boys at the same age. So, what we are talking about is an evolution versus a revolution of ideas. I had the opportunity to serve at the 2015 World Jamboree in Japan. 30,000 Scouts from 162 different countries. I'm from the United States and it doesn't pass my observation that at least 161 countries allow girls in their Scouting programs at all ages. The United States did not. We are in the business of helping our youth. As such, I am gender neutral. I can't tell you the number of women who have told me that they wished the Boy Scouts would have allowed their daughters to be Scouts because we have a better program then the Girl Scouts. Not my words, theirs. So, at long last, we will have girls in the Boy Scout system. Oh my God, what does that mean? From my experience over the last 20 years, you need to have an adult female on over-night events. Ooooh-scary. I don't want to trivialize the issue as we are talking about 100+ years of tradition. But at the same time, we are in the business of helping youth. I for one, don't care what gender they are."

Cool. Things will get really complicated if they work to go fully co-ed on the "Boy Scouts" part of Boy Scouts. It will be interesting to watch this evolve.  North8000  (talk) 13:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Youth organizations in the United States+WPMOS
This article is a mess-I see several of our intrepid members have tried to clean out this rat's nest from time to time. I did a little pruning today, but it needs monitoring.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:13, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I've restored the capitalization section of Scouting WPMOS, which is meant for pedantic users just like this. "When Scout, Scouting, Boy Scout, Girl Scout, Guide and Scouting-related award names, progression levels, age sections, other language equivalents (i.e. Second Class, Varsity Scout, Eagle Scout, Bronze Wolf) are used in articles in the context of the Scouting Movement, they are considered proper nouns and are always capitalized..."

The Duke of Edinburgh's Award?
I thought this was something UK Scouts could earn, but no mention of it...--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 08:13, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
 * They can earn it, but so can any youth. It is not a Scouting award, although Scouting, like other youth organisations, helps young people to earn it. -- Bduke   (Discussion)  08:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Although the 2001 revision of the training programme was specifically designed so that it could be run in tandem with the DoE scheme. I'll try to find some sources. Alansplodge (talk) 15:59, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Aha! It is mentioned at The Scout Association: "The final three awards, The Chief Scout's Platinum and Diamond Awards and the Queen's Scout Award are available in the Explorer Scout and Scout Network sections. The awards mirror the requirements of The Duke of Edinburgh's Award at Bronze, Silver and Gold level respectively... allowing a participant to achieve both the DofE and the Scout award at the same time". I have additionally added a brief para at The Scout Association. Alansplodge (talk) 16:36, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Ukraine issues
Recently, several users have been editing multiple Ukraine Scout articles, claiming that Plast has dropped out of the national coalition NSO, but citing no sources. Can we confirm this somehow? , any thoughts?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 05:53, 15 December 2017 (UTC)


 * is the relevant article, not Plast.
 * The Ukrainian Plast organization recently held a seminary on international Scouting, including work within WAGGGS (!) and WOSM . The website promotes participation in upcoming international Scouting events - all events are WAGGGS-/WOSM-only. If you look closely, you will find some people with the World Scout Emblem on some of the pictures.
 * The 2014 membership data for Ukraine is strange since it shows 1,195 members in WOSM plus 3,345 other members - there is no other NSO with more non-Scouting members than Scouts.
 * As far as I could find out, Plast is still cooperating with NOSU. --jergen (talk) 09:29, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I linked Plast just because that is the org claimed to have bowed out. But there is no recent activity on that article, so I was suspicious...--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:02, 15 December 2017 (UTC)