Wikipedia talk:WikiProject South Africa/Archive 3

Identifying Balmoral
Hi all,

I've recently been working on Charles Blackader, a British Army officer who was the commander of a camp at "Balmoral" in 1901. There's no entry for Balmoral on the disambiguation page, but I've tracked it down to a railway station and small town between Pretoria and eMalahleni\Witbank. I was going to put in a redlink, but I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what to call it.

OpenStreetMap gives two locations next to each other; one (a place) is listed as in Mpumalanga, and one (the station) is given as in Gauteng. The location is very close to the border, but looks like it's in Mpumalanga - see here

Would Balmoral, Mpumalanga be the correct title for a redlink here? Andrew Gray (talk) 11:32, 4 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Offical NGI maps confirm that Balmoral (village, station and associated colliery) lies on the Mpumalanga side of the border. Balmoral, Mpumalanga would indeed be the correct disambiguation. - htonl (talk) 12:24, 4 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Excellent, thanks. I'll correct OSM as well ;-) Andrew Gray (talk) 12:26, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

South African rank templates up for deletion
FYI, several RSA military rank templates are up for deletion, see Templates for discussion/Log/2013 January 8 -- 76.65.128.43 (talk) 04:40, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The issue is the use of non free images which is strictly verboten. We have replaced the templates on the relevant pages with tables which are also technically verboten but has been allowed in these cases. Gbawden (talk) 06:24, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Possible Census 2011 errors
According to this article in today's news, there may be some errors in the latest census data. HelenOnline (talk) 09:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Here is a news article from November last year in which Stats SA denied the errors. It now transpires that the critics had good reason. HelenOnline (talk) 09:48, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of some Boer War categories
Category:First Boer War weapons and Category:Second Boer War weapons are proposed for deletion at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_February_11. DexDor (talk) 07:12, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of the "Members of the Cape Town City Council" Wikipedia article
For the below discussion, please refer to the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_Cape_Town_City_Council

This article is very out of date. It lists council members from 2007 and subcouncil charipersons from 2009. The high turnover of people in these positions makes it unfeasible to maintain the page, and the existing "Subcouncils of the City of Cape Town" article provides links to the City of Cape Town's official website which contains an updated list. The article serves no practical function and I therefore propose that it be deleted.

Please refer to http://www.capetown.gov.za/en/subcouncils/Pages/Home.aspx and http://www.capetown.gov.za/en/CouncilOnline/Pages/ViewCouncillors.aspx?FirstSurnameInRange=A&LastSurnameInRange=A for comparison. 41.208.10.82 (talk) 12:33, 11 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The formal deletion request is at Articles for deletion/Members of the Cape Town City Council. - htonl (talk) 14:00, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Travel
With Wikivoyage now being part of the wikimedia family there is a whole new area to explore and contribute to. If you enjoy travel or know of some lovely places in South Africa to visit, feel free to pop over there hand help improve the South African articles --NJR_ZA (talk) 08:59, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

South African Republic (1914–1915) and the Maritz Rebellion
I'd be interested in the project's thoughts on my comment at Talk:South African Republic (1914–1915). - htonl (talk) 17:54, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Charlize Theron
As a Native American, I am very sensitive to issues of nationalism and cultural appropriation. It really irks me when Americans try to "claim" a subject who already has a strong national self-identification, simply because they have been naturalized as an American citizen recently without giving up their original citizenship. What's currently going on at Charlize Theron is an example of this. I've done quite a few searches, and I cannot anywhere find that she has ever even said "I am an American", while it is easy to source her saying "I am a South African". However, one editor in particular insists on reducing the description of her nationality to "South African-born American". I'd certainly be offended if I were a notable Mi'kmaq tribal member being described as a "Mi'kmaq-born American". Are you blokes going to do anything about this? Yworo (talk) 18:15, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Opinions wanted on a move request
I'd like to get some input from other SA editors on Talk:Cape Colony. - htonl (talk) 13:00, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

incorrect information, repeated.
This needs to be corrected: "In October 2001, a 9-month-old named Tshepang was raped by an HIV-positive man and had to undergo surgery in Cape Town.[26] In 2001, another 9-month-old infant was reportedly gang raped by six men, aged between 24 and 66. The infant required extensive reconstructive surgery in Kimberley, Northern Cape.[27]" These are not two separate cases, but the same case. The gang-rape by six men was moreover an unproven allegation. It turned out that another man - just one - had raped the child. The 6 men were acquitted after DNA evidence and an eyewitness absolved them.  www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/baby-tshepang-town-still-confronts-devils-1.229875#.UUHThjc5igs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.228.82.58 (talk) 13:57, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * In which article did you find this? Thanks. - htonl (talk) 14:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Google says Sexual violence in South Africa. HelenOnline (talk) 15:00, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I have made the requested correction. HelenOnline (talk) 19:21, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Reeva Portrait.jpg
file:Reeva Portrait.jpg has been nominated for deletion -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 05:19, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * and now renominated for deletion -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 23:24, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

WP South Africa in the Signpost
The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject South Africa for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. –Mabeenot (talk) 06:42, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Template colours
Hi, I would appreciate some input on this template (colour wise). See talk discussion. Are these colours standard for SA templates? HelenOnline (talk) 09:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Ethnic groups in SA
If we don't consider white an ethnic group, this article and the other SA population group articles need some serious cleaning up. HelenOnline (talk) 12:35, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Indeed, race is only one component of ethnicity, which is a cultural group descriptor. Other factors are language and group affiliation. Take for example the breakup of Yugoslavia, all the people involved were white but they were of different ethnicities such as Bosnian, Serb, Croat, etc. they didn't engage in "Ethnic cleansing" because of the colour of their skins!
 * In South African terms someone like Mandela is racially Black, linguistically Xhosa and his ethnic group is Thembu, although sometimes all Xhosa-speaking groups are lumped together under the Xhosa label. White South Africans are definitely not a single ethnic group, there are Afrikaners, Anglo Africans, Greeks, Portuguese, Germans, etc.
 * The template Ethnic groups in South Africa does a reasonable job of sorting it all out. There is also Category:Ethnic groups in South Africa wich gives an indication of how complex the subject is. Roger (talk) 13:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Xhosa speakers needed to save Xhosa Wikipedia
The Wikipedia in Xhosa has been proposed for closure. You may be interested to comment. πr2 (t • c) 00:03, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Persistent promotional linkspam and copyvio at Kagiso
Please keep a beady eye on Kagiso for promotional edits apparently orignating from people involved with a local tourism and business marketing website. The editors involved (some are currently under blocks) also use their user and/or talk pages to promote the website - often with large copyvios. Roger (talk) 08:06, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * It's starting up again!, please don't make me fight this alone - the people involved probably already think I'm the meanest SOB on WP. Roger (talk) 08:29, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It's on my watchlist as well, I'll try to keep an eye out. - htonl (talk) 10:45, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Added to my watchlist. HelenOnline (talk) 11:01, 6 April 2013 (UTC)


 * FWIW I have submitted an SPI case. Helen (talk) 13:29, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Please help with a new draft article about the Cape Town Jazz Festival
I've started a draft for the Cape Town International Jazz Festival, interested editors are welcome to participate. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:52, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The article is now "live" at Cape Town International Jazz Festival thanks to a major contribution by User:Aleksandar Bulovic'. Interested editors are welcome to have a go at improving it. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:42, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Please help me!
Hey there, I have created an article for the Economy of Gauteng and need help with it, please see the talk page here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Economy_of_Gauteng. Also, I'd like to be a part of wikiproject South Africa, I've created three articles relating to South Africa (the articles for RAMFest, Kongos and Economy of Gauteng) and I've done work on tons of South African-related articles such as F.W. de Klerk's page, Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment's page, Serbia–South Africa relations' page, Oppikoppi's page, Splashy Fen's page, Spccer City's page and Cape Town Stadium's page, just to name a few. I'm also usually one of the first (and often the only) contributors to add South Africa's international reaction to major global events, such as North Korea's recent Nuclear test and the death of Hugo Chavez. I'm proudly South African and would love to work with wikiproject South Africa to bring South African articles up to a global standard. Thanks! Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 11:08, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Aleksandar. It looks good, but not my area of interest or expertise sorry. I don't think you need special permission to join WPSA, just add your name to WikiProject South Africa/Participants and watch this page. Helen (talk) 11:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Welcome on board! Thanks for all the work you did on Cape Town International Jazz Festival, you basically wrote the whole thing while I was away from home for a couple of days. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:35, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem, glad to help where I can! :)
 * I still need help with the Economy of Gauteng article though but I am more than willing to help in other articles too, just ask me on my talk page! At the moment, I am really busy with the Damelin article, so if anybody can help there too, that would be great. :) Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 18:09, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

South african news papers
Beeld Raport Die Burger Die Volksblad — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.212.194.244 (talk) 05:17, 18 April 2013 (UTC)


 * What about them? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:30, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think maybe s/he was trying to communicate that these newspapers (All of which are Afrikaans to my knowledge) lack articles on Wikipedia? Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 18:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Although I have been wrong before, here are articles for Volksblad, Die Beeld and Die Burger... Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 10:55, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Gauteng Article
Hey, I've been doing (and will continue to be doing) extensive work on the Gauteng article but I need somebody to help with a few of the sections. I've added a lot of citations to the article and removed, reworded and added a lot of content. The Etymology, History, Law and Government, Climate, Cities, Towns and Municipalities, Economy, Transport, Education and Sport and Recreation sections are all sections I have either created or heavily modified. However, I do need help with some of these sections: Geography, Demographics, Transport, Conservation and Sport and Recreation. If anybody can help me out with them, that would be awesome because I feel that as on of the greatest regions in Africa (and maybe even in the Southern hemisphere) that this article deserves a lot more attention. If you can help me in any way, please feel free to either edit the article (and update me on changes) or contact me on my talk page. Thanks! Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 10:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent work, article looks real good now. Will see if I can add to the missing pieces --NJR_ZA (talk) 15:26, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Looking good! htonl is the go-to editor for demographics - drop a note on his talk page. It would be great to see the rest of the provinces get similar overhauls. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:37, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Article improvement drive
I'd like to propose that we engage in a concerted effort to improve the article Gift of the Givers. It is a high profile humanitarian organisation with a very poor out of date article missing large chunks of information. Just expanding the list of relief missions they have done would already be a vast improvement. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:00, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I will compile information during the week and see if I can't add anything to this article over the weekend. :) Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 15:19, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Couldn't find too much information, but I did manage to find some information regarding their involvement in Malawian Flood relief efforts and in humanitarian aid to people afflicted by the civil war happening in Syria right now, hope it helps somewhat! Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 16:59, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Iron Brew
I created a bare stub of an article here Iron Brew. The product is so ubiquitous it surely warrants an article??? However, there is a real paucity of information: What the hell is "Iron Brew" flavour??? What is its history? Coca-cola say they've made it since 1975, but was it originally a local product that they bought the rights too? I assume Coca-cola never copyrighted the name here as there are so many knock-offs. Garble (talk) 19:56, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

This mentions an earlier origin: http://www.jewishgen.org/safrica/newsletter/sa-sig-nl-2006-12.pdf. Hardly much of a source though. Garble (talk) 20:00, 10 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Iron Brew is really not South African at all, there is a lot more to that name. See Irn-Bru and the Barr website. I suspect however that a careful search of old text will reveal medicinal preparations named Iron Brew that even predate that --NJR_ZA (talk) 18:01, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure the Iron Brew made in South Africa (now by Coca Cola but AFAIK (can't find a source) originally made independently) and the Scottish Irn Bru are the same thing. The colour for one is completely different. That's why Coca-cola only sells it in Southern Africa. Garble (talk) 11:29, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

BTW this vintage poster says 1972 not 1975. Helen (talk) 11:36, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Information
Hi everybody! I'm very interested in knowing more about South African culture and history. Could someone please advice me a book or an author to begin with or a must? Thank you for your help! --Simoncik84 (talk) 12:22, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know if there is such a book, and the answer will depend who you ask. I can only speak from a white perspective as I grew up during apartheid. This ad pretty much says it all (not that I am personally into three of the four items mentioned). Hope that helps! Helen (talk) 13:35, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * For some books on South African history try the internet archive . For more recent history you will want to look at books that cover the border war, apartheid and post apartheid. History prior to European settlement have very little written records (and those that do exist are from outside South Africa), so details are sparse.
 * As for culture, South Africa is one of the most diverse countries in the world; there is no one culture that describes all South Africans. Our languages alone shows the extend of this diversity; there are 11 official languages and a dozen or so more unofficial. Most outsiders see culture divided along racial lines, but even that is not the whole story; there are large cultural differences within racial groups. Due to the diversity, culture is also fast changing and one must define the words culture and tradition carefully; a good example of this is a simple google image search for "cultural xhosa clothes" or "cultural sotho clothes" . This will return images with lots of textiles and the familiar person wrapped in a blanket that most people will immediately recognize as culturally belonging to South Africa, but most people will also omit to ask "where did the blankets and textiles come from?" That culture like many others in South Africa has only been in existence for two to three hundred years. --NJR_ZA (talk) 18:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you NJR_ZA and Helen! I'm becoming aware of the multi-cultural environment of South Africa, which interests me the most. I've also begun to study Afrikaans, using my basic knowledge of Dutch. My search aims particularly to gather some information about the mixed culture created by the Boers, who seem to me the only case in Africa in which Europeans have become a "white african tribe". Is this really true? I'm reading a book by Hosea Jaffe, is this a good book according to you? --Simoncik84 (talk) 10:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Can't really comment on the quality of the book or author as I've never heard of them, but if you consider that Afrikaans is the only European language to have been developed outside of Europe, I guess you could say that Afrikaners truly are the only white Africans. However, we do have tightly knit communities of European origin here: particularly Portuguese and Greek, but there is also a fair amount of Italians, Germans and eastern European people (of which I am one). The Dutch had a huge impact on African culture here, namely on Afrikaners (or Boers) and Cape Coloureds, who speak Afrikaans in many instances. Also, as a result of Apartheid, lots of black Africans are capable of communicating in Afrikaans and to my knowledge, many African languages have words that are borrowed from Afrikaans. Happy researching! Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 20:44, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * FWIW I know older black and Indian South Africans in Gauteng who can speak Afrikaans but not English. It depends on the geographical area. Helen (talk) 10:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Helen, hvala Aleksandar :) I think I'll begin with the book I mentioned by Hosea Jaffe, that seems to be quite interesting. Thank you for your help! --Simoncik84 (talk) 17:53, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Need help from an Admin who understands Afrikaans
Please excuse the "abuse" of this page but I have no idea where else to turn. In short I am being harassed in Afrikaans by a new editor with a clear right-wing agenda. Reporting the matter through "the usual channels" won't help because the vast majority of admins won't be able to understand any of it. Thanks Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:11, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not an admin, but had a look at your talk page history. I suggest you don't revert his/her edits, but just let me know when a new message appear. I can then translate this to English for English speaking admins to deal with.
 * I don't believe the person's first language is Afrikaans; there are unusual grammatical errors, not the kind an Afrikaans speaker will normally make.
 * Ek weet jy is 'n Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging kommando terug in 1991 - Tense is wrong, this should read jy was 'n
 * Ek onthou dat jy by die vergaderings in Newcastle, Natal. - Sentence is not complete, should be something like Ek onthou jy was by... or ...in Newcastle, Natal was.
 * Dit nie ontken nie. - Incomplete, should be something like Moet dit nie ontken nie.
 * Same is true for the content of his/her userpage:
 * My naam is Spekkommissie en ek gaan Wikipedia artikels te verander, die waarheid te sê vir een keer is not grammatically correct Afrikaans. It is the kind of thing Google translate will produce. A 5 year old won't make those mistakes.
 * --NJR_ZA (talk) 16:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll undelete the posts on my talk page. Having an uninvolved translator is helpful, better than me doing it myself. Please also take a look at his other edits elsewhere for the sake of the "complete picture". Yes I agree the Afrikaans is clearly unidiomatic. It goes without saying that there isn't a shred of truth in any of the allegations made about me. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Translated. I know you could have done this yourself, but in a situation like this it is better to get a 3rd party to do so. --NJR_ZA (talk) 17:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The matter is resolved, the editor involved has been indef blocked. Thanks for your assistance. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Excellent --NJR_ZA (talk) 19:30, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Does this WikiProject have a watchlist?
If so where is it? Thanks in advance, XOttawahitech (talk) 19:40, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * This should do as a watchlist, --NJR_ZA (talk) 20:31, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks User:NJR ZA, I have added this watchlist to your Wikiroject page. I hope this can be useful for others. XOttawahitech (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks great thanks! Will it still work when toolserver is fully migrated into WMF's own servers? AIUI there are a huge pile of tools and other links that have to be changed as toolserver is retired. See Future of Toolserver for the details. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:29, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I was not aware of toolserver's imminent demise. Will have to look into that. This current watchlist also have some problems, most notably it won't include pages tagged with such as Talk:Operation Excite/Hilti. --NJR_ZA (talk) 15:15, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Greetings!
My name is CE, and I just signed up for Wikiproject South Africa. I thought I would just introduce myself (if this is the right page to do so, Idk if it is), as I would like to get to know, and collaborate with, other WP users who are interested in South Africa. As I find ZA fascinating, I would love to talk with users who are actually from South Africa, especially ones who are old enough to remember the Apartheid era. Thanks! Cheers. CarringtonEnglish *ring!*  01:54, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Welcome CE. --NJR_ZA (talk) 05:26, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Welcome, CE! Glad to have you on board. :) Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 18:44, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Local news FYI
Please let me know if there is a better place for me to post this:
 * Helen (talk) 11:43, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Great find! Maybe the WP:Signpost would be interested a story about it, the "Suggestions" page is here. -- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:57, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Roger, I have added it to Press coverage 2013 for now. Helen (talk) 12:32, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Category:1906 establishments in South Africa
There is currently a proposal to rename Category:1906 establishments in South Africa that I felt might be of interest to the people involved in this project. There are also some similar CfD proposals. On the other hand there is also a current proposal to rename Category:1906 establishments in Cape Colony and similar categories that might be of interest to those connected with this project.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:29, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Proposed move of Anglo-African to British in Africa
See Talk:Anglo-African. Helen (talk) 10:26, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Census 2011 Community Profiles
Hi, does anyone know whether and how to access to access 2011 population data for specific places, and then how to import them into Wikipedia? We are still using 2001 Community Profiles. According to Stats SA, Community Profiles were to be available from "06 November 2012 (place names available March 2013)". I have tried to figure it out myself to no avail. I thought I should ask here in case anyone is more clued up than me about this (highly likely). Helen Online  07:24, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * The data has been released, supposedly, but nobody seems to actually have a copy of it. - htonl (talk) 11:43, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Database is at Superweb (linked from STATSSA website). Follow Geography, Persons & Services, drill down and select the region(s) you are interested in and click apply. You won't find figures by town name, lowest level is ward in local municipality. Data match what was released in official reports, i.e. if you select all provinces it totals up to a population of 51 770 560 for all of South Africa; that is also the figure that was published in the official reports --NJR_ZA (talk) 19:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Ja, I was talking about the main-place and sub-place data which is not on SuperWeb. I think I'm going to have to order a CD from StatsSA. - htonl (talk) 20:02, 19 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I don't mind paying for the data (within reason) if someone can figure out where to get it from and how to use it. Please let me know. Helen  Online  10:08, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Call for Volunteers for Wiki Loves Monuments South Africa 2013
This is a call for grass roots volunteers for this year's Wiki Loves Montument South Africa photographic competition run by Wikimedia ZA. The South African component of the international Wiki Loves Monuments competition that challenges editors and members of the public to take photographs of monuments during the month of September to be donated to the commons. If you are interested in helping out in organising and running a treasure hunt (to photograph monuments) and/or an upload marathon in your community then please sign up today on Metawiki or leave me a message. --Discott (talk) 21:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Support the bid for Cape Town to host Wikimania 2015
Wikimedia ZA is currently canvassing for support for Cape Town to host Wikimania 2015. For us to put together a strong bid we need your support and help. If you would like to pledge your support for Cape Town to host Wikimania in 2015 then please sign up on the proposal page here. If you are interested in volunteering or helping out in anyway to organise this event then please contact me and/or say so on the signup list.--Discott (talk) 21:55, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

British diaspora in Africa (was Anglo-African)
I am pretty much done cleaning up British diaspora in Africa if anyone wants to give it a look over. I will probably tackle White South African and Afrikaner at some stage but I need a break from these articles now (and have some other WP commitments to catch up on). Helen Online  07:20, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Just 35 days till the start of WLM 2013
2013 will be the second year that South Africa participates in Wiki Loves Monuments.

If you want to get involved, see the following links
 * Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in South Africa
 * The Official website
 * On Facebook

and join the WMZA Mailing list for discussions and up to date information. --NJR_ZA (talk) 05:51, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I plan to take some photos for Stellenbosch where I live (although I am a bit overwhelmed at how many monuments haven't been photographed yet). I am not much of a photographer but I am here. Helen  Online  06:54, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Does not matter if there are 5 or 500 missing photos, it all starts by taking the first one. Hope you got a good one. Prizes for the 2013 competition has not been announced yet, but if it is run the same as last year then there will be prizes for the national competition and the winners will go through for the global competition. --NJR_ZA (talk) 19:02, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * It's okay but it wasn't easy as the house was in a narrow street and I couldn't get it all in one shot (kept two angles). I'm not entering to win anything, just for fun and to improve WP. I did recruit a friend who is a serious photographer. Helen  Online  20:06, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * That's great news Helen. As part of WLM 2013 competition I am planning to organise a treasure hunt and mini upload marathon in Stellenbosch on Sunday the 8th September.   I would like to know if you would be interested in joining us or, even better for us in the organising team :-), if you would be interested in helping us organise the event?--Discott (talk) 12:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

National DNA Database of South Africa (NDDSA)
This is just a heads up to let you know that I have started a draft article on the NDDSA along the lines of articles for other national DNA databases. It is hoped that Cabinet will approve the draft DNA Bill that has been before Parliament since 2008 tomorrow, which would lead to a significant increase in DNA forensic testing in SA. I am not ready to publish it yet, as I got sidetracked cleaning up a very neglected related murder article (not done with that one yet either) and working on various other articles. I would like to use it for a DYK too, so would rather not publish it before it's ready for that. I don't expect anyone to edit it, but any other input is welcome. Helen (talk) 11:16, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * GCIS update in case anyone is interested: "Cabinet approved the introduction of the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Bill to Parliament. This Bill paves the way to regulate and promote the use of DNA in combatting crime, taking into account constitutional requirements. The use of DNA evidence holds the potential to alleviate blockages in the criminal justice system. Maximising the use of DNA evidence promotes fairness, confidence, and certainty in the administration of our laws." Helen  Online  09:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Update in case anyone is interested, the DNA Bill has been adopted by Parliament and if/when enacted "criminals or suspected criminals would be compelled to provide police with a DNA sample. The samples would then be destroyed, but the DNA profiles would be stored on a database." Helen  Online  09:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Census incorrect ?
It says that approximately 800 000 White South Africans have emigrated since apartheid was abolished. I query this due to one fact. In my group of South African friends in the USA, which amounts to about 30 people. Not one of them officially emigrated from South Africa, and they all hold USA passports. Hence the figure being very distorted. I would put it at a couple of million. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.244.143.18 (talk) 15:17, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Invite to Wikimedia ZA AGM and Wiki Loves Monuments launch
I want to officially extend an invitation to everyone on this portal to attend this year's Wikimedia ZA AGM. I also want to invite everyone to the launch of this year's Wiki Loves Monuments photographic competition which will happen on the same date (but different times) at the same place. Both events will take place on the 1st September 2013 at the Prestwich Place Memorial, corner of Buitengracht St and Riebeek St, Cape Town, Western Cape. The AGM will take place from 10:00. The launch of Wiki Loves Monuments will happen a couple hours after the AGM at 15:30 for 16:00. Thanks, --Discott (talk) 19:27, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Johannesburg Article
Hey all, I have been doing a bit of work on the Johannesburg article and I just want to ask whether or not it makes sense to flag a section as poorly cited if it has a main article? Here is the section to which I am explicitly referring. It is technically an uncited section, but it has a main article which has enough citations to make it valid, so is it okay to remove that flag or should I try and add citations to the section? Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 19:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you improve the section? I think the tone is not very good. Nikswerdhond (talk) 13:22, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Ethnic groups in South Africa
Do we really need another article about Ethnic groups in South Africa when the ones we already have desperately need attention? This seems like unconstructive content forking to me. I am also not happy with the use of the word race, as stated on the talk page. Helen Online  07:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I also question the use of race and racial in Demographics of South Africa . Helen  Online  07:13, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. Ethnic groups in South Africa contains two large sections with the heading Demographics comprising almost 50% of the article. These sections are outdated and duplicates information already available and up to date in Demographics of South Africa. Furthermore, Ethnic groups in South Africa does very little to address Ethnic groups at all; it addresses Black, White, Indian, i.e. addressing racial groups rather than ethnic groups. I would suggest a merge or a complete rewrite of Ethnic groups in South Africa --NJR_ZA (talk) 07:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The 'ethnic groups' article adds no new content, it was separated from the Demographics article because racial facts and statistics were overwhelming it, and leaving little about non-racial demographics. I would advise against merging it back.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 08:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Population figures from the 2011 census (possibly)
The small-area level data from the 2011 Census are said to be now available through this iPad-only app. I have no way to access it to verify it in person, but from this newsletter (page 4) it seems to be useful stuff, which we could use to update the demographic figures in hundreds of articles.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 22:20, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I don't have an iAnything sorry. Helen  Online  06:54, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I emailed Stats SA on Monday to ask how to obtain a copy of the main- and subplace data and am still waiting for a reply. - htonl (talk) 08:34, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to hear that, Htonl. I used the contact form of Stats SA to ask them if they were going to release the main place stats on the internet a couple of weeks ago, but I'm still waiting for an answer. Hopefully you will get a reply soon.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 18:11, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I am sitting in the Stats SA offices right now as they burn a copy of the data to DVD for me! Soon we will see what it looks like. - htonl (talk) 10:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Right, I have the data. When I get home this afternoon I'll start working to get a new version of the website up with the new data. - htonl (talk) 12:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Wonderful, thank you. Helen  Online  14:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Countries and territories bordering the Indian Ocean
has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 11:19, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

SACU
has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 02:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

New photos for wikipedia articles
Wiki Loves monuments is progressing well and there are already 143 new photos available that can be used on wikipedia articles.

commons:Category:Images from Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in South Africa

--NJR_ZA (talk) 09:27, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

List of heritage sites in Stellenbosch
FYI I am going to try clean up List of heritage sites in Stellenbosch seeing as WLM 2013 has launched and I live in Stellenbosch. Some of the descriptions are incomplete and need copy-editing, and I am not sure where the text is supposed to come from. The first property is also listed under both Stellenbosch and Paarl. Normally I would just be bold but I want to avoid stepping on toes and wanted to know if there is any logic behind the current content. Helen Online  11:16, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the origional text on those were provided from the SAHRA database. Copy-editing is definately in order. --NJR_ZA (talk) 09:24, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I can now see where the text has been copied from (badly), but I am now also concerned about copyvio. I don't think the SAHRA CC licence per its website is adequate for Wikipedia purposes and the text hasn't even been attributed as far as I can tell. I added a ref and an external SAHRA link to the Stellenbosch article, but not to attribute text. I don't see the point cleaning up the text if it is copyvio and liable for deletion anyway. Helen  Online  13:51, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * CC-BY-SA is a good enough license for Wikipedia. (The primary Wikipedia license is CC-BY-SA-3.0 but CC-BY-SA-2.5-ZA is compatible with it.) That being said, if the descriptions of the monuments were gazetted (as they must have been in terms of section 25(5) or 25(6) of the National Heritage Resources Act, for example) then they fall within the exemption of section 12(8)(a) of the Copyright Act: "No copyright shall subsist in official texts of a legislative, administrative or legal nature...". - htonl (talk) 14:26, 3 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your prompt reply htonl! Helen  Online  14:36, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Announcement - my Census 2011 website is live
Hi folks, my website with data from the 2011 census has now gone live at http://census2011.adrianfrith.com/. The interface is exactly the same as the one for the 2001 data. When I have the time I plan to add to each page a list of the smaller geographies that make up the geography in question - for example, listing the main places in a municipality, or the sub places in a main place. - htonl (talk) 22:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Addendum - tomorrow I will try to update the metadata templates so that Infobox South African town can work with the new data. - htonl (talk) 22:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much htonl. Helen  Online  07:47, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

As promised, each page now has a table of the component smaller geographies, and "breadcrumb" links at the top that link back to higher levels of geography. - htonl (talk) 14:32, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You're amazing as always Adrian, you're so getting a barnstar for this!--eh bien mon prince (talk) 19:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Infobox South African town 2011 is now available to replace Infobox South African town. All the functionality should be the same; all you have to change to update an article is the template name and the census code. If anyone is looking for an example of usage, Underlying lk has already started converting articles to the new template. - htonl (talk) 22:11, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm using a 'cleanup' template (Template:Infobox South African town 2011/cleanup) to help with maintenance, but mostly the task is just to replace the old census code with the new one. The codes can all be found by searching here.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That cleanup template is really nifty! Nice work. - htonl (talk) 23:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * We should be careful when we use the town names from the census, as there are dozens of typos. Postmasburg for example, in the census it became Postmansburg.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 14:24, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There are 130 transclusions left, but most of those can't be replaced by the 2011 town template because they're subplaces.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 08:04, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll work on setting up the subplace template this weekend. - htonl (talk) 08:24, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Infobox South African subplace 2011 is ready now. - htonl (talk) 10:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I hate to say this, but language and race stats for subplaces may need to go: "Parser profiling data: CPU time usage	8.553 seconds Real time usage 8.647 seconds". It's really that slow, at least for me.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 12:48, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I leave it up to you if you think it would be better to remove the race and/or language stats. In any case this whole system of incorporating data through metadata templates (which is not really optimal) should ultimately be replaced by the use of Wikidata. - htonl (talk) 13:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There is a possible compromise, we could substitute race and language figures, rather than transcluding them. They would be still included in the article, but they would not be fetched from the meta-template each time. See Park Rynie for an example of this.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 13:29, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * All articles are now using Template:Infobox South African town 2011. The old templates have been nominated for deletion, the discussion is here. (@User:Htonl)--eh bien mon prince (talk) 15:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Wonderful, thank you both! Helen  Online  15:22, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

 * Thank you Roger! But to be honest 99.9% of the credit goes to Adrian (htonl), if it wasn't for him and all the work he did on his website we would not have any census data at all, not even the old one!--eh bien mon prince (talk) 11:52, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Postal codes
I see the postal codes are being added automatically now and any manual ones I added before are causing duplication (I think I only did this for Kayamandi and Jamestown, Western Cape). I have deleted the manual codes from Kayamandi but I see the Jamestown WC article is picking up the postal code for Jamestown, Eastern Cape which is incorrect. It is actually listed under Webersvallei which is an alternative name for Jamestown WC, possibly used for certain official purposes to distinguish it from the other Jamestown. 20:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If you set  to the street code and   to the box code, it will override any automatic filling of postal codes. (At least, it should if I am reading the code correctly; I didn't implement that bit.) - htonl (talk) 20:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks htonl, fixed Jamestown WC. I also removed some manual codes from Stellenbosch yesterday which were causing duplication (I don't think I added them). Helen  Online  06:41, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Heritage Day initiative
Via WLM ZA on Facebook:
 * Helen Online  14:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I have noticed some related activity and discovered a project page. A little heads up for the regular contributors here would have been nice. Helen  Online  10:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you, starting a similar initiative without notifying the WikiProject is kind of self-defeating.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 01:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Another article in today's Daily Maverick:  Helen  Online  13:14, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Another article in yesterday's Business Day:  Helen  Online  06:51, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Article Assessment
Hello all, I have been doing extensive work on the pages for Parks Tau, Johannesburg, Gauteng, University of Johannesburg and Damelin and feel that they need to be re-evaluated in terms of their quality and importance some time in the next couple of weeks, so I don't know who I'm supposed to ask to do that, but they're all part of WikiProject South Africa, so this seems as appropriate a place to start as any. =] Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 00:44, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You can access up to C class yourself, for B class it is generally a good idea to get other editors involved and get a consensus that it actually qualifies. For GA, A and FA you will need to follow the nomination processes. You can find the assessment criteria at WikiProject_South_Africa/Assessment.

I have reassessed
 * Damelin as C-Class
 * Parks Tau as Start-Class (and added Biography of Living Person template). I don't think it is complete enough for C-Status yet.
 * Gauteng is definitely beyond Start-Class and I have changed it to C-Class.
 * Johannesburg is still C-Class and will need a lot of work, specifically on references, before it can be considered for B-Class

--NJR_ZA (talk) 16:46, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much! :) Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 15:13, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Requests for assistance
I'm looking for some volunteers to help update List of heritage sites in South Africa, specifically the lists of Provincial Heritage Sites, with photos. Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 contributed almost 5000 new photos that can be used to update these lists. The photos are located at Commons:Category:Images from Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in South Africa or you can work from Commons:List of heritage sites in South Africa --NJR_ZA (talk) 07:19, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

New draft
As a consequence of the discussion at Talk:Afrikaner (involving Roland Postma, htonl, HelenOnline and myself) I began a draft article at User:Dodger67/Sandbox/Afrikaner identity politics. I'd like to invite interested editors to please feel free to contribute to the construction of the article. If some feel it is innapropriate for a collective effort to take place in User space I'd be happy to move the draft to a shared sandbox here at the WikiProject. Please note there is already some discussion of ideas for the article at User talk:Dodger67/Sandbox/Afrikaner identity politics. I'm busy with university exams this month so unfortunately I won't be as active as usual here on WP. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:46, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Wiki South Africa Twitter Page
I've notice, I'm new to this digital dimension, that there is currently no Twitter Account dedicated to this profound, dedicated collective of editors in strengthening collaboration, cooperation & communication among this form on other platforms, such as that of twitter.

I've thus far, come across a twitter account dedicated for the continent as a whole, but not for the sovereign Republic of South Africa. I therefore took the liberty in establishing a twitter account found here. Any member of Wiki Project South Africa can be an administrator or follower. The user name is @wikisouthafrica and the password will be given if this form approves of this initiative.

Otherwise, if he or she, thinks this idea is nullified and has no relevancy nor importance to the integrity or well being of this form, please let me know, and I will happily take it down. If not, do add ideas on how we use this twitter account to progress the aims and objective of this form. If you visit the page, you can see it has already accumulate a few followers, around a mere 214 to be exact.

So please state, if this is a good idea or not. . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roland Postma (talk • contribs) 03:52, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I need to think about it, but I would say upfront be careful about representing it as an official Wikipedia account (wikipedia.org website is an official website, and the logo which I am not familiar with appears to give it an official look). I wouldn't want to be part of anything that does not clearly represent exactly who operates it. Helen  Online  10:25, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, I need to be careful in making such consequential errors in a transparent environment such as the digital sphere. This twitter account, as I've stated non - ambiguously, accessibility is open to anyone within this form. Thus, it is open to be edited, if another being, have gone wrong by misrepresenting an organisation through obvious ambiguity. I apologies for such error, and I appreciate HelenOnline for pointing it out.


 * It will be idealistic, if this account, can be operated by the profound likes of yourself HelenOnline in - order to strengthen collaboration, cooperation & communication among this form on other platforms, such as that of twitter. Do think about it, if it foresees to be that this initiative does not have any relevancy nor importance to this form, it will be removed. Furthermore, the icon you have pointed out is my own design & copyright, which I've constructed for this little, mere initiative. It can be changed, it only needs "other" users to take appropriate steps.


 * I repeat, I will take it down if it is not approve in the coming days. The twitter account can be found here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roland Postma (talk • contribs) 11:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * For the last time Roland, please sign your posts. I'm not sure anyone watching this talk page has the authority to approve anything in an official capacity. Please don't try ingratiate yourself with me, it is distasteful. I don't intend to operate such a twitter account, and don't want to be misrepresented there. Helen  Online  12:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Your responds, which frankly could have been a no without the incivility. Nonetheless, I will take appropriate action of deleting the account, as clearly if the likes of yourself disapproves it is quite obvious how the rest of the community will respond. Please reread my comments, as I had not intention whatsoever to "ingratiate" your character. I only hoped to widen the representation and leverage of this community. I'm quite new you see and I only had the intention of integrating myself into community that lacks both sufficient representation and participation, plus wanting to help to change the dire situation this organ of wikipedia is facing here on my native continent.


 * I had no intention to provoke HelenOnline whatsoever. Rest assure, the account is by now already deleted. Hendrik Biebouw (talk) 13:50, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

List expansion: List of museums in South Africa
List of museums in South Africa, this list is far from complete and should be easy to expand. The page also needs co-ordinated and images. Nathan121212 (talk) 17:42, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Input on "Separate articles for Royal Observatory Cape and South African Astronomical Observatory?"
We have a question at the Teahouse about whether there should be one article or two for this issue, can any Capetowners drop in and weigh in? See: Teahouse/Questions MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:59, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

AfC submission
Would you have a look at this submission? Thanks! FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 20:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The title is incorrect - the actual Mandara Plateau mosaic is an entirely different ecoregion in West Africa. It looks to me like the author "reused" an old sandbox instead of creating a fresh page from scratch - this resulted in the title confusion. I have just fixed it. Roger (Dodger67) (talk)

Removal of sections on articles of political nature
Hey all, I recently did some editing for the Parks Tau page in which I included a section called "Controversy". Based on Wikipedia's guidelines regarding libellous content, it was removed by a non-registered user. However, the entire section is factual and heavily referenced. Can I please get somebody else's input on the matter as to whether or not A) The removal of this section is justified and B) Whether or not I should revert that edit. Just for interest's sake, I've noticed that the articles for Boris Johnson (Mayor of London), Rob Ford (Mayor of Toronto), Sergey Sobyanin (Mayor of Moscow) and even Patricia de Lille (Mayor of Cape Town) all have sections relating to controversies with which they were involved. Thanks! Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 21:28, 19 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I have reverted the unexplained deletion of referenced content. --NJR_ZA (talk) 09:04, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

42 Squadron SAAF
I have just published this article 42 Squadron SAAF and I am trying to improve it by adding more info and sources. Can anybody confirm that 42 Sqn participated in the Border War? I always thought they were involved but I cannot find a single mention of this in reliable online sources or on google books, any assistance would be appreciated. Nathan121212 (talk) 13:11, 8 November 2013 (UTC)


 * You should look for books by people such as Steenkamp or Heitman. I have a few but don't have access until Monday. Iirc one of the squadron's pilots was awarded the Honoris Crux for taking out an Angolan anti-aircraft gun with a smoke rocket normally used to mark targets for bombers or attack jets. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 20:16, 8 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Found a reference to Bosboks flown in Angola by 42 Squadron - p.145 & 165 The South African Air Force at War. Martin Louw and Stefaan Bouwer. Chris van Rensburg Publications. 1995 ISBN 0 86846 084 2. The event Roger described occurred during Operation Protea though I can find no reference to the squadron the pilot belongs though he is mentioned on p179 of the same publication.Paul (Conlinp) (talk) 07:57, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Paul, so if I add
 * See your talk page. Paul (Conlinp) (talk) 16:30, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Border War
42 Squadron and their Bosboks were deployed to Angola in the 70s to the 80s to serve as artillery spotters and target markers using smoke rockets. Will this be correct or do I need more sources, I don't know what the book says so this is just a guess. Can you give more info? Nathan121212 (talk) 12:50, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Silver Falcons userbox
For any fans of the Silver Falcons just add to your user page and you will get this userbox  It's one of the first userboxes I have made. Nathan121212 (talk) 18:28, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

2011 Municipality Results Rural South Africa
Some might remember me from before with my unethical edits.

However, that's long gone now. As of now, I've started to fixing a hole found in various municipalities throughout rural South Africa. The pages exist nevertheless. However, the elections results of the 2011 municipality elections doesn't. I've just finished doing my first constructive, accurate, point of view free edit of a wikipedia page in relation to my native country. My first edit can be found at the Ndlambe Local Municipality located in rural Eastern Cape. Can someone with experience, check if the edit was indeed done properly and complete, with accordance to the norms and rules of Wikipedia. The edit was in relation to result to the 2011 elections.

I'll we be lurking Wikipedia for municipalities that lack these type of results. Thus, those pages are uncompleted informatively.

Moreover, I would highly appreciate if anyone can point me towards municipalities who requires an edit of this sort. Do contact me on my page if needed possible, or here.

For now,

A fellow African. Hendrik Biebouw (talk) 13:31, 20 November 2013 (UTC)


 * It looks good. My only suggestion for change is that you should use the "Ward + PR" vote count rather than the "Ward + PR + DC 40%" vote count, since the Ward + PR votes are what actually affect the council of the local municipality. (The DC 40% vote count will of course be shown on the article for the district municipality.) That's what I've done in the articles where I've added election results for local municipalities. - htonl (talk) 14:42, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, in addition: if there's a case where you have "1 other parties", you might as well just name that party. - htonl (talk) 14:47, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

National Forensic DNA Database of South Africa
National Forensic DNA Database of South Africa has been published. I will give it a thorough review before I submit a DYK nomination. Timing is tricky. The Bill has not been assented to yet (any day), but there is a DYK backlog and I would like the DYK to come out around when it is promulgated. Helen Online  05:23, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

List of Afrikaans singers
If anyone would like to share their views, about List of Afrikaans singers, I'd appreciate the input.

At present, this list has a lot of red links. I spent a lot of time pruning the list so that only "notable" artists appear there. Of course, many anonymous users want to add the names of minor artists who have no Wikipedia articles. Do you think it would be better just to delete all of the red links, regardless of whether or not the person is a major recording artist?

I see some value in keeping red links (for people who are trying to discover Afrikaans music), but I also don't want to see the list abused for promotional purposes, and I think having a blanket no-red-links policy might help. I doubt that this article qualifies for semi-protection. –Ringbang (talk) 17:26, 23 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I think removing all red-links would be appropriate for an article like that. It is supported by the Write the article first policy - you can point people to that to explain the removal of red links, if you want to. - htonl (talk) 17:47, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, htonl. I read WP:WTAF, and it addresses this situation perfectly. I'll delete the red links. –Ringbang (talk) 22:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Union Defence Force (South Africa)
I have just changed the Union Defence Force (South Africa) page from a redirect to South African Defence Force to a very brief stub. Please help to expand it. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:39, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

English exonyms for place names
English_exonyms. Can someone check this please. Mainly to make sure it is up to date with any recent name changes. But also for sourcing where controversial. See also article Talk. Many thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Article for Deletion: Death of Nelson Mandela.
Hey, all. As you all know, our dear leader Nelson Mandela passed away this weekend, and as such, there is an article for his death and funeral, currently being nominated for deletion. I urge you to go to this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Death_of_Nelson_Mandela and give your comments regarding whether or not the article should be deleted and what kind of steps need to be taken to ensure that if it is kept, that the article is of a good composition. This article also needs a rating on its quality scale and its importance scale as there is no rating at the moment for either of those criteria. Aleksandar Bulovic&#39; (talk) 13:22, 8 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Thankfully common sense prevailed and the consensus was keep. I have included some information pertaining to the funeral and got it moved to Death and state funeral of Nelson Mandela with a view to following the format of Death and state funeral of Ronald Reagan. Anyone who has time to expand it would be appreciated. - Reallynca (talk) 23:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Why delete it? I don't understand why we would delete something so important. Nikswerdhond (talk) 13:01, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The reasons are presented in the nomination for deletion. Helen  Online  14:29, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Xhosa/Zulu speakers
I would appreciate it if fluent Xhosa/Zulu speakers could check that the SA multilingual signs on Commons are correctly categorised. I am particularly concerned that Xhosa signs may be categorised as Zulu signs or vice versa (as they are similar languages). Helen Online  11:07, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Robben Island images
FYI I have uploaded over 100 new Robben Island images on Commons. I also added subcategories for various specific sites. Robben Island Museum covers the whole island and some other sites such as Nelson Mandela Gateway at the V&A Waterfront and the old Robben Island Embarkation Building on Jetty 1 (a separate heritage site) which are now included under the Robben Island Ferry subcategory. I wasn't aware there was a separate exhibition site on Jetty 1 so I will have to go back sometime for that. I have also been trying for a very long time to get access to Madiba House at Drakenstein prison without success. I have been told to call back late January 2014 and if it is still closed to the public I will ask if I can just take a photo of the house exterior. Helen Online  14:34, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

List of political parties in South Africa needs spring-cleaning
We need to verify that the listed parties are all still registered as political parties with the IEC. I suspect that more than a few of the ones currently listed as "not represented in parliament" no longer exist. In any case all of the entries need to have either an article or a proper reference in the case of redlinks. Checking each party name against the IEC website is a time consuming process so I would really appreciate some help. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:14, 3 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Roger I am interested in the general election and will do what I can in due course (but trying not to overcommit myself to preserve my sanity). A final list of registered parties and candidates contesting the election should be published in the Government Gazette around March so I will keep an eye out for that. Helen  Online  09:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC)


 * In case you missed this in today's news:

Cape Town bid for Wikimania 2015
Hello everyone. I am currently putting together a bid for Cape Town to host Wikimania in 2015. If you would like to see Cape Town get the bid please show your support for it by adding your name in the "Supporters" section at our bid page. Many thanks and all the best for 2014!--Discott (talk) 15:01, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Book - The Last Hot Battle of the Cold War by Peter Polack
Congratulations to Nick (NJR ZA). The author of the above book used one of his pictures from Wikimedia in the publication - attributed to NJR ZA. Its on page 91 and is a picture of a Bosbok aircraft at a SAAF museum in Port Elizabeth. Good to see a member of WikiProject South Africa being acknowledged.Conlinp (talk) 08:09, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks for letting us know. Helen  Online  08:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Might as well provide the bibliographic details: . It looks like it might be a useful source for the Milhist editors. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:00, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Bushmen
I have proposed a move/renaming from Bushmen to San people following a clean up and expansion of Bushmen. Please participate in the discussion so we can resolve this long-standing name issue. Helen Online  07:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

SA PD template
Heads up: I created PD-South-Africa-exempt based on the corresponding Commons template for as there was no equivalent here (without really meaning to, as I thought there already was one except it wasn't here). I tend to find Wikimedia information via Google and this time it got me horribly confused working across both Wikipedia and Commons templates at the same time without realizing it. I also added the template to File copyright tags/Public domain. If anyone here is more clued up than I am about such things, I would appreciate a look over what I have done. Helen Online  11:16, 15 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Helen, it is fine to have that template on en, but it is better to tag documents that qualify with Template:Copy to Wikimedia Commons as they should rather be moved to Commons --NJR_ZA (talk) 16:45, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks Nick, I normally upload to Commons as a default but someone else uploaded this one here. I have since also uploaded it to Commons but was nervous they might delete it so removed the Now Commons tag from it. It has a photo on it. I will bear that in mind for future uploads though. Helen  Online  17:13, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I have added some documentation to PD-South-Africa-exempt, hope it helps. Helen  Online  14:30, 18 December 2013 (UTC)


 * This file was deleted on Commons while images like this one go unnoticed here. The moral of the story is, if there is any doubt about copyright, it is less likely to be deleted here. Helen  Online  09:01, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

commons deletion request for a whole lot of files
Who can give some assistance here? Are any of these files under the wrong licence? Are any of them copyright violations? --Slashme (talk) 09:44, 25 December 2013 (UTC) commons:Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_in_Category:PD-South-Africa-exempt


 * If they accept my interpretation that the files fall under exempt "official texts", we may need to ensure the relevant GG details (number, date) are added to all the file descriptions. If they delete the files from Commons, we may need to upload the coats of arms here under fair use. I will save the images in case we need to do that. Helen  Online  09:58, 25 December 2013 (UTC)


 * All files have been deleted on Commons. I will upload them here under fair use when I have the time. Helen  Online  09:10, 31 January 2014 (UTC)


 * htonl has uploaded at least two coats of arms and I have uploaded the rest of the provinces' arms and Parliament's arms. I have a few left to go of other sorts. I have run into a bit of a problem with the seal of the President of South Africa. The Commons file was the work of several editors, the first of which has been blocked from here indefinitely, so I have a sourcing problem. The image also doesn't look that close to the one in the offical pdf source I found. Can someone less technologically challenged than me please help me to extract the graphic out of it? (I only know how to print the screen and use MS Paint to get a jpg file and that probably won't be good enough.) Helen  Online  08:11, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I can do it when I have the chance. - htonl (talk) 08:22, 4 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for doing that htonl, I think they are all uploaded here now (I am not worrying about other projects). Helen  Online  15:22, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Objectivity And Neutrality
The problem I have with this undertaking, is that (white) South Africans are not the best suited to relay South African history. Again and again, when you read a wikipedia article about South Africa, of the Bantu migration, you get the same old Apartheid propaganda masquerading as history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venda_people#History "The Venda are originally from the Congo and the East African Rift, migrating across the Limpopo river during the Bantu expansion.[3] [4]

Sorry, but is this official history, or is this 'Africans came to South Africa after the Europeans' re-writing of history to suit Apartheid, and legitimise the presence of Europeans in South Africa?

This is accompanied by a photograph about which we are assured represents:

"Venda woman singing about a successful trip to collect stinkbugs."

Then, the photograph that accompanies the 'independent homeland of Transkei' looks like it was made by the South African ministry of tourism - green, rolling hills, thinly peppered with small villages. Until of course 90% of the population was supposed to live there, and similar small areas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ciskei2.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid#Homeland_system

Then, there is the issue of the Bantu Migration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_migration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_migration#Rise_of_the_Zulu_Empire_.2818th.E2.80.9319th_centuries.29

" By the time Great Zimbabwe had ceased being the capital of a large trading empire, Bantu peoples had completed their colonization of southern Africa, with only the western and northern areas of the Cape not dominated by them.[citation needed] "

This is 'pure' apartheid history, being passed of as (unsourced, of course) history on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrSativa (talk • contribs) 17:53, 26 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The only way to address such problems with Wikipedia articles is for more people to get involved editing Wikipedia in line with Wikipedia policy. You/we are Wikipedia, it is not somebody else's problem or responsibility to fix it. Please address specific issues at the relevant articles. Unsourced content added by any editor may be tagged, challenged on the article talk page or removed (ideally with an edit summary explaining why). Helen  Online  08:11, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe the Apartheid era involved some attempts at rewriting history, but the Bantu expansion is well evidenced. Sometimes it's tempting to assume that various nonwhite people around the world lived the same lifestyle in the same place for an eternity before white colonists arrived, but it's rarely a good assumption. Nikswerdhond (talk) 22:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * MrSativa, how do you know the article was written by white South Africans? Do you know the editors real identities, or is it because you disagree with the content? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikswerdhond (talk • contribs) 12:15, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm black and most of what i know about the True African history is oral history passed of course from my grand father, I'm trying to say that as much as we can source the so called truth, the fact is, it might not be the true events that took place because the sourced information itself might have been written by someone who heard it from their grandfather (reminds me of the history i was learning at school about the heroic deeds of a gentleman by the name of Jan van Riebeeck and the stories i heard about the same guy from my grandfather, completely different). however I want to agree with Helen  Online  the more we spread the word about the participation on Wikipedia the more we have a neutral voice and end this monopoly of ideas Bobbyshabangu (talk) 11:16, 07 February 2014 (UTC),

Feedback request: VisualEditor special character inserter
The developers are working towards offering mw:VisualEditor to all users at about 50 Wikipedias that have complex language requirements, like Afrikaans. Many editors at these Wikipedias depend on being able to insert special characters to be able to write articles.

A special character inserter tool is available in VisualEditor now. They would like to know what you think about this tool, especially if you speak languages other than English. To try the tool, please:
 * If you haven't already opted-in, then opt-in to VisualEditor by going to Special:Preferences and choosing "". Save your preferences.
 * Edit any article or your user page in VisualEditor. See the mw:Help:VisualEditor/User guide for information on how to use VisualEditor.

To let the developers know what you think, please leave them a message with your comments and the language(s) that you tested at the feedback thread on Mediawiki.org or here at the English Wikipedia at VisualEditor/Feedback. It is really important that the developers hear from as many editors as possible. Thank you, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 00:03, 23 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi Whatamidoing (WMF), my focus is especially on the indigenous African Languages and my focus is siSwati (one of the South African Official Language) since I'm active there, the the feedback thread on Mediawiki.org has made it very easy for me to edit as many articles as i can because it's not only quick but it's also very much user friendly and thus far i really can't complain Bobbyshabangu (talk) 10:27, 07 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your note!
 * Have you met Anna yet? She is working with several African communities.  Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:19, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Category:History museums in South Africa
This category has a lot of duplication with Category:Museums in South Africa. Do we need this extra category? Gbawden (talk) 08:38, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Well it does help distinguish history museums from other types such as science or art museums. The articles in Category:Museums in South Africa should, as far as possible be diffused into the relevant subcategories. The parent category should contain only articles that cannot be allocated to any of the subcategories. The category tree is a bit of a mess, I will have a go at sorting it out this afternoon. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:59, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Climate of South Africa
The article Climate of South Africa, which we have rated as "Top importance", is a pathetic mess. Parts of it are good, but the basic problem is that it has far too few parts. The lead talks about the Western Cape Mediteranean zone and the subtropical eastern zone - then there is a miserable little list that simply names a few of the country's climates zones, then a brief section on the Highveld climate and a climate chart of the Free State. The majority of the wide variety of climate zones in the country are not covered at all. I propose that this embarrassing "article" be moved to Draft-space - Draft:Climate of South Africa - where we can do some serious work on it before again exposing it to the entire world in mainspace. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:52, 12 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Moving it out of main space will probably see it getting even less attention that it gets now. Probably better to just go ahead and start improving it in place. --NJR_ZA (talk) 17:47, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

John Eppel
What about John Eppel who was born in Lydenburg, south Africa? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.221.242.137 (talk) 16:59, 12 February 2014 (UTC)


 * What about him? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:29, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Census figures on Wikidata
Thanks to the efforts of Wikidata user ValterVB, the populations for all the 278 South African municipalities from the 2011 census have been imported to Wikidata, and can be retrieved on any edition of Wikipedia by using a Lua script or through the parser function  on the appropriate page. You can see an example of this on this special page, while this is the corresponding Wikidata item from which the figures are fetched. since IIRC you were interested in the concept.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 01:17, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to User Study
Would you be interested in participating in a user study? We are a team at University of Washington studying methods for finding collaborators within a Wikipedia community. We are looking for volunteers to evaluate a new visualization tool. All you need to do is to prepare for your laptop/desktop, web camera, and speaker for video communication with Google Hangout. We will provide you with a Amazon gift card in appreciation of your time and participation. For more information about this study, please visit our wiki page (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Finding_a_Collaborator). If you would like to participate in our user study, please send me a message at Wkmaster (talk) 13:40, 8 March 2014 (UTC).

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Jackie Quinn
Dear editors: The above old Afc submission is soon to be deleted as a stale draft. Is this a notable topic, and should the article be kept and improved instead? &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 00:20, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Help needed
My nemisis is tagging images for deletion again - the first is File:Danie Theron Medal.jpg. Can someone please help me understand what needs to be done to keep these? I have uploaded a lot of medal images and really don't want to have to upload them again Gbawden (talk) 10:28, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
 * @Gbawden You need to provide two copyright statements, one for the medal itself and another for the website where you got the image of the medal. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:29, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * @Roger - so 2 Fair Use rationales? Gbawden (talk) 13:04, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, I understand from the deletion discussion you need a free (not fair use) licence from the photographer. Helen  Online  13:25, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Afrikaner identity politics
I have moved a draft from my sandbox to Draft-space, I don't have enough time to do the topic justice by myself. Please feel free to help write Draft:Afrikaner identity politics. -- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:34, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Anybody? Please... Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:58, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I would love to but have no knowledge of the subject Gbawden (talk) 11:51, 21 March 2014 (UTC)