Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spain/Archive 5

Concerns re neutrality of category of "Spain"
I would like to raise some concerns about the neutrality of the category of "Spain" and "Spanish" in light of cultural/national pluralism on the Iberian peninsula. The Spanish nation is relatively recent and its sovereignty is contested. Nothing and no one before the 15th century can be accurately attributed to Spain and many members of autonomous communities today either do not consider themselves Spanish at all or only as a secondary or administrative designation. "Iberian" is a more neutral designation, referring to a geographic scope rather than the projects of nationalism, whether by the Spanish state or members of autonomous communities. Recapitulating the project of the Franco dictatorship to unify Spain under Castilian norms (in his case by cultural genocide) serves the political agenda of the Partido Popular and is therefore not impartial. "Iberian" recognizes the plural ways of life within the borders of modern Spain without privileging one group over another. For example, one in five citizens of Spain speak an Iberian mother tongue other than Castilian. Thus there is no such thing as "the Spanish language" but rather Castilian, Catalan, Euskara, Galician, Aragonese, Aranese, etc. as Iberian languages (which of course includes Portuguese). "Spain" and "Spanish" should be used to refer to aspects of the nation state, citizenship, etc, but not to cultural practices. Sangderuc (talk) 00:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)Sangderuc


 * However recent the Spanish "nation" may be, the Spanish empire or kingdom dates from the years of the Reconquista, or possibly earlier (i.e. the Visigothic kingdoms preceding Muslim rule). The question is -- at what point did some, if not all, begin to see Iberia as a region that had a common cultural or political heritage and destiny? IMHO, this point clearly passed more than 1,000 years ago. Spain is not defined by simple geography, as is Iberia. Spain is a tradition dating back to Pelayo (an Asturian!); Spain is an empire that ruled much of the Americas; Spain is, if not in your opinion a going concern, at least a historical fact. Independence-minded people in specific Spanish regions share one thing in common with Franco and his ilk: the mistaken belief that "Spanish" and "Castilian" are synonyms. They are not. The latter is a subset of the former, and the former implies pluralism, just like "British" and "German" and "Italian" do. One does not have to believe in centralized government, Castilian superiority or "cultural genocide" to acknowledge that the various peoples of the Iberian Peninsula, excepting (sometimes) Portugal, are, despite their individual identities, tied together by cultural and historical threads stronger than those that bind them to the rest of Europe, or to the world at large; and the generally accepted term for those cultural and political bands is "Spain". ``` W i k i W i s t a h ``` 01:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Request for assistance: hare coursing
The article hare coursing includes the following at hare coursing:
 * "According to the UK Government's Burns Inquiry[9], open coursing (UK style) takes place in Spain and park coursing (Irish style) takes place in Portugal. Coursing also takes place in Pakistan. Hare coursing is illegal in most other European countries.[17]"

Can anyone in this wikiproject find any sources describing the existence, notability or debate of hare coursing in Spain? (perhaps better known as hunting hares with galgos not guns). Thank you. MikeHobday (talk) 11:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Emery Molyneux: Translation of non-English terms
Help would be much appreciated in translating the following book title appearing in the article which is not in English:


 * "Islas estas descubrio Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa por la corona de Castilla y Leon desde el año 1568 llamolas Islas de Jesus aurque vulgarmente las llaman Islas de Salomon". Is "These islands claimed by Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa for the crown of Castile and León from the year 1568 are the Jesus Islands, commonly called the Solomon Islands" an accurate translation?

Please respond on the article's talk page. Thanks very much! &mdash; Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 04:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Bachillerato
Hi all -- I'm translating an article from the Spanish Wikipedia and I'm trying to figure out which page to link the concept of Bachillerato. The Spanish wiki page's interwiki link goes to the Baccalaureate disambiguation page. Is there a page that covers the specifics of the Bachillerato and what it entails? I read over the article on the European Baccalaureate for EU member states, but it doesn't seem to be right. -- Mûĸĸâĸûĸâĸû 07:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Problems with Ataúlfo Argenta
I just came across this article which is definitely not in compliance with verifiability. It is full of original research and the repetition of rumours verging on slander. It has been the subject of persistent attempts by the single purpose account Tilleadh to revert the removal of the unsourced, unverifiable, and potentially biased information. The subject died 50 years ago (although his son is still alive). It could use some expert attention. Many thanks. Voceditenore (talk) 12:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

List of political and geographic subdivisions by total area
Hi, I'd appreciates some help in adding the Provinces of Spain to this list. Cheers! bd2412 T 21:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Latin Europe
Hello ! There is a vote going on at Latin Europe that might interest you. Please everyone, do come and give your opinion and votes. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 20:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

National Library of Catalonia
The short article about the National Library of Catalonia was created after Biblioteca de Catalunya, which already existed. The two articles should be merged, but which one should remain -- A or B?
 * A -- Biblioteca de Catalunya --> National Library of Catalonia?
 * B -- National Library of Catalonia --> Biblioteca de Catalunya?

If there is no objection, the resulting choice will likely become A -- and the Catalan-entitled article will be folded into National Library of Catalonia at the end of April. Are there any objections? --Tenmei (talk) 14:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Prince of Bourbon
Hello Wikiproject Spain. I recently found the above article through the wikification drive. It looks to me suspiciously like original research, or even a hoax, but as I am not that familiar with the Spanish Monarchy I'd rather leave it to someone who is to review. Regards, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 13:34, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Question on scope
Would John McCaa be considered in the scope of this project? Basketball 110  14:51, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Spanish help on Gyromitra esculenta
This text has been in the article on Gyromitra esculenta:


 * In some countries such as Spain, especially in the eastern Pyrenees, they are traditionally considered a delicacy, and many people report consuming them for many years with no ill effects. Despite this, all false morels are listed as hazardous in official mushroom lists published by the Catalan Government in Spain.

It would be great to get some sourcing, clarification or correction. Any help on the matter much appreciated. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:25, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Template:Catalan language
''Cross-posting to Village pump (assistance), Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spain, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catalan-speaking Countries

Template:Catalan language has been tagged for speedy deletion, using a template that (as I understand it) is supposed to indicate what should be used instead; no template is indicated to be used instead. I had some back and forth with User:MZMcBride, who tagged it, but I'm afraid that all that revealed is that he and I aren't seeing eye-to-eye.

I haven't been working in Catalan language and culture lately, but this template was once quite heavily used. We created it because there were articles where Catalan-speaking world was arguably too extensive. Not to put too fine a point on it, Spanish nationalists objected (reasonably, I think) to articles about topics like phonology linking (via that template) to articles about Catalan government agencies, Christmas traditions, etc.. I suspect that what has happened over time someone (probably a Catalan nationalist) has put Catalan-speaking world back on the contentious articles, and that the template that is now proposed for deletion might be more appropriate on those articles.

But, since he doesn't even say what template he considers to be an acceptable substitute, I feel like I'm wrestling with a fog. Perhaps someone else can do a better job of sorting this out. - Jmabel | Talk 19:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Rate

 * Could somebody rate this page - Giourkas Seitaridis. The-Real-ZEUS (talk) 02:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like pretty obvious "start" class, but has little to do with Spain. The fact that a Greek footballer plays for Atleti doesn't really make him a Spanish topic. - Jmabel | Talk 17:28, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Requesting assistance on Lope de Vega article
Greetings, members of WikiProject Spain! I'm putting out a request for any interested members of the Spain, Theatre, and/or Biography (Arts and Entertainment) Projects to provide some assistance with the article on Lope de Vega. The tone of the much of the text still seems to be from the 1911 Britannica; I believe the article could benefit from the incorporation of material from some additional references, along with the documentation of those references on the article page. "Lope" is definitely a notable figure, with articles listed at 29 "Other Language" interwikis, as of 6 April 2008, and listed as a Featured-Article on Spanish Wikipedia. There should be no shortage of references available :)

I'm requesting assistance at this time, because another editor recently (in my opinion mistakenly and/or inappropriately) deleted much of the article text as being in violation of Verifiability; I believe this should not have happened, and as of 6 April have restored the deleted text; but the occurence does underscore the fact that the article could use some updating and improved referencing; hopefully by a collaboration of editors.

Thanks, Lini (talk) 02:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Article assessment: Diaz
The WikiProject Spain banner on Talk:Diaz shows null values for article assessment. The article has changed substantially and I would encourage your revisiting this banner and providing assessment values for it. Thanks. --User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 09:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Establishing notability of two spanish articles - Celia en el mundo and Cristina Cruz Mínguez and Celia en el colegio
Anyone familiar with any of this material and can source it or otherwise comment on its notability? I am not familiar with much of spanish culture...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Lavandeira
An article on a Spanish subject, Lavandeira, has been listed for deletion. I have included in this nomination the articles Vermella and A Viridiña. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Lavandeira. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? JohnCD (talk) 16:32, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Update - articles deleted at the author's request. JohnCD (talk) 21:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Satyr
Have you replaced User:SatyrTN's User:SatyrBot? We at WP:CHICAGO are looking for a replacement since he is no longer active. Please respond at my talk page.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

War of the Spanish Succession
Is up for Featured Article Review. Please take a look and see if you are interested in helping it come up to current standards. Thank you. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 01:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup
Currently, 1595 articles assigned to this project, or 10.1%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 2008-06-18.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 12:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
 * The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
 * The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
 * A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot  ( Disable )  20:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Need etymology assistance
Can we get some help regarding an etymology question at Talk:Andrés Quintana Roo? Thank you, Badagnani (talk) 23:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Los Valdecolmenas
I found a block of Spanish text in Los Valdecolmenas so I tried to translate it. My Spanish isn't terrific, but I think now it is more understandable to the non-Spanish speaker. Could someone please check my translation and let me know how I did?--omnipotence407 (talk) 11:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Panzer I Article A-Class Review
The A-Class Review for Panzer I has been reopened. Your comments are welcomed! JonCatalán (talk) 00:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Malpaís
Malpaís (landform) is a stub; please help to expand it. --Una Smith (talk) 22:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Panzer I going through FAC
The article Panzer I is currently going through a featured article candidacy. Your comments are welcomed, and your support as well! Thanks! JonCatalán (talk) 04:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Missing Spanish politicians
Hi I've created a list of missing politicians at WikiProject Spain/Missing politicians. I have howwver started a few but its probably more sensible to start them in sections rather than stubbing the whole lot in one go. Could anybody please help expand some of these articles by translating from Spanish wikipedia and help with starting the missing ones thanks:


 * Gerardo Abad Conde (expanded earlier)
 * Buenaventura Abarzuza Ferrer
 * Fernando Abril Martorell
 * Fátima Aburto Baselga
 * Manuel Ángel Aguilar Belda
 * Rosa Aguilar
 * Alberto Aguilera
 * Manuel Aguirre de Tejada
 * Pedro Agustín Girón
 * Elías Ahúja y Andría
 * Santiago Alba Bonifaz
 * Víctor Alba
 * José Luis Albareda y Sezde
 * Juan Manuel Albendea Pabón
 * Cristina Alberdi
 * Vicente Albero
 * José María Albiñana
 * Núria Albó
 * Gil Álvarez de Albornoz
 * Felipe Alcaraz
 * Alberto Alcocer y Ribacoba
 * Alejandro Agag
 * Jesús Alique
 * Luis Almarcha Hernández
 * Joaquín Almunia
 * Gabriel Alomar
 * Demetrio Alonso Castrillo
 * Eduardo Alonso Colmenares
 * Alonso III Fonseca
 * Manuel Alonso Martínez
 * Alejandro Alonso Núñez
 * José Antonio Alonso
 * Juan Alvarado y del Saz


 * Amador Álvarez
 * Vicente Álvarez Areces
 * Saturnino Álvarez Bugallal
 * José María Álvarez Mendizábal
 * Florentino Álvarez Mesa
 * Horacio Álvarez Mesa
 * Ramón Álvarez Valdés
 * Julio Álvarez del Vayo
 * Fernando Álvarez de Miranda
 * José Álvarez de Toledo y Acuña
 * Pedro Álvarez de Toledo y Colonna
 * Eloísa Álvarez
 * Ismael Álvarez
 * Magdalena Álvarez
 * Melquíades Álvarez
 * Diego de Alvear y Ponce de León
 * Óscar Alzaga
 * Andrés Amado Reygondaud
 * Ángeles Amador
 * Pascual Amat
 * Mario Amilivia
 * Emilio Amuedo
 * Ana Rosa Migoya de Diego
 * Iñaki Anasagasti


 * Rafael Andrade Navarrete
 * Josep Andreu Domingo
 * Etelvina Andreu
 * Antonio Carpio Quintero
 * Antonio Flores de Lemus
 * Antonio Landeta y Álvarez-Valdés
 * Graciano Antuña
 * Jesús Aparicio-Bernal
 * Francisco Aparicio y Ruiz
 * Antonio Aparisi Guijarro
 * Pedro Antonio de Aragón
 * Carlos Aragonés
 * Elviro Aranda Álvarez
 * Conde de Aranda
 * Luis Araquistáin
 * Eugenio Arbones
 * Pere Ardiaca
 * José María de Areilza
 * Javier Arenas
 * Manuel Argüelles Argüelles
 * Miguel Arias Cañete
 * Gabriel Arias-Salgado
 * Francisco Arias Solís
 * Diego Arias de Miranda
 * Rafael Arias-Salgado
 * Juan Armada y Losada
 * Luis Armiñán Pérez
 * Jordi Arquer (expanded earlier)

♦ Dr. Blofeld ♦      "Talk"? 12:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've been working along similar lines recently. Can I ask that you or others make sure that you add the appropriate categories e.g. Category:Members of the Congress of Deputies (Spain) and also that for MPs you link to the appropriate electoral district [] rather than the province. Thanks, Valenciano (talk) 15:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

A-class review for AMX-30E now open!
An A-class review for the article AMX-30E has been opened. Any and all editors are invited to participate! Thank you! JonCatalán (talk) 06:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Spanish Laws
I've noticed there seems to be a lack of articles covering topics in Spanish law. I've just done a fair bit of work on the Historical Memory Law but perhaps other articles could be started on issues like Spanish Citizenship Law. Saluton (talk) 14:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Spain
Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:28, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

GA Reassessment of Trabancos River
Just a note to let the project know that Trabancos River has been placed on hold following its GA Sweeps Review, which can be found here. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Image needs replacement - Foz-Calanda
Hello all...

An image used in the article, specifically Image:Foz 1001.jpg, has a little bit of a licensing issue. The image was uploaded back when the rules around image uploading were less restrictive. It is presumed that the uploader was willing to license the picture under the GFDL license but was not clear in that regard. As such, the image, while not at risk of deletion, is likely not clearly licensed to allow for free use in any future use of this article. If anyone has an image that can replace this, or can go take one and upload it, it would be best.

You have your mission, take your camera and start clicking.--Jordan 1972 (talk) 00:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Tenerife
Hola! I seriously need as much help as possible at translating Tenerife. I came across it a minute ago and was shocked to see how poor and underdeveloped the article was, and then saw it on spanish wikipedia and had to do something about it. Please also let anybody you know who speaks spanish about it, it is a core article and should quite rightly have a full article. Anybody who sees this please consider contrubiting to the translation. Thanks. Blofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 23:26, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Spain-related articles needing geographical coordinates
Based on a search of Wikipedia's articles, I've found some Spain-related articles that I believe are about places, and could usefully have geographical coordinates added.

The articles in question are listed in Category:Spain articles missing geocoordinate data. At the time of writing, some examples included:
 * 1) European Northern Observatory
 * 2) Malejos
 * 3) Mugaritz
 * 4) Orexa
 * 5) Orio
 * 6) Santimamiñe
 * 7) Sierra Morena

...and there are many more, as well. At the time of posting this notice, there were 1221 articles in this category needing geographical coordinates.

Why add coordinates?
By adding coordinates, a Wikipedia reader can easily view the location on a street map, nautical chart, topographic map, by satellite photo, realtime weather map, and in many other ways. Coordinate data makes an article eventually appear in various services such as Google Maps' Wikipedia overlay, Google Earth, and Wikipedia's own internal map service. Coordinate data also helps readers looking for geographically-based data, such as locations near a reference point, or related information.

How can I do it?
The articles are all marked with coord missing tags, which need to be replaced with coord tags that contain the location's latitude/longitude coordinates; or you might be able to add coordinates to an existing infobox. You can find out how to do this at the Geocoding how-to for WikiProject members. Please let me know if this is useful, or if you have any questions! -- The Anome (talk) 09:15, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Spain articles needing geographic coordinates
Update: Spanish articles needing geocoords now have their own category.  articles in Category:Spain articles missing geocoordinate data do not have geographic coordinates. Coords are useful for making the article appear on Google Maps & many other mapping services; and they allow our users to click through to see the article subject location on a map. There's a short guide to on how to add geocodes to articles ... it really is very easy to do. I hope you'll take some time to ensure that Spain is as well represented as it can be on wikipedia by fixing up the listed articles. thanks --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Added WP:Spain template to Captain Alatriste
Wasn't sure where else to put this. The author is a part of this wikiproject and the characters of this series of book are all Spanish, with most of the action occurring in Spain. I figured it should be attached to this project. 166.122.98.137 (talk) 21:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

A-Class review for Revolt of the Comuneros.
An A-Class peer review has been opened for Revolt of the Comuneros. Any input would be appreciated; thanks. This article was originally based on a translation of a Spanish Wikipedia Featured Article, for what it's worth. Speaking of Spanish Wikipedia... I don't know how many translators are about here, but any help on moving the associated bio pages over to English Wikipedia would also be greatly appreciated. For example, compare Pedro Girón (currently a redlink) with Pedro Girón, or Francisco Maldonado with Francisco Maldonado. That's going to be a fair amount of work, and I haven't even really straightened out the list article yet. SnowFire (talk) 06:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Hernando de Soto
I need some help here to standardize usage in an article. When making subsequent references to the Spanish explorer Hernando de Soto, should he be refered to as De Soto, de Soto or simply Soto?

Thanks for your help. JodyBtalk 22:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Moscow Gold Translation
I have recently finished translation the article Moscow Gold from its (featured) version in Spanish. I added the article to WikiProject Spain - if there are any proofreaders available willing to work with the article, that would be great.--CarlosPatiño (talk) 07:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Manuel de Godoy de Bassano y Crowe
Just a heads up here: I found a new article created on 4 November 2008 by Fjmoralesroca with the rather convoluted title: Manuel de Godoy de Bassano y Crowe (*Paris, October 31, 1828 +April 14, 1896), 3rd Prince of Godoy of Bassano, 3rd Count of Castillo Fiel. It consisted solely of random, unformatted, unreferenced text and appears to refer to the same person as the subject of Manuel de Godoy di Bassano y Crowe, 3rd Prince of Godoy of Bassano. I redirected it to the pre-existing article and copied the text of the new one to Talk:Manuel de Godoy di Bassano y Crowe, 3rd Prince of Godoy of Bassano in case it might prove useful to those trying to expand the article. I also put the WPBiography (WikiProject Royalty) and WikiProject Spain banners on it. Note that the same user has also recently heavily edited an article about the father of the subject: Manuel de Godoy di Bassano y Tudó, 2nd Prince of Godoy of Bassano. I've also put the project banners on that. Voceditenore (talk) 07:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Spanish surname policy discussion
A discussion is under way here on how to style Spanish surnames after the lead sentence of biographies. The outcome is likely to become Wikipedia policy. Interested editors are invited to comment. Unconventional (talk) 16:25, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Bartolomé Esteban Murillo
On Talk:Museo del Prado I came across this question about Bartolomé Esteban Murillo. I have no answer but I replied with some wikilinks and that I would post a note here, in case anyone has more information. The questioner was asking about the history of the painting Image:La Inmaculada de Soult, 1678, Bartolomé E. Murillo.jpg. -84user (talk) 19:27, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Special Branch?
I'm working on a biography of a Spaniard, and a source keeps referring to the a "Special Branch" that would have existed during the Second Spanish Republic, but I can't find what organization (some kind of police force) this was, and what it's Spanish name was, or how to link to it. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate a note on my talk page as I don't have time to watch this page. Thanks, Murderbike (talk) 22:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Gosh, one more question, sources keep referring to a place called Alto Llobregat in addition to Baix Llobregat, but I can't figure where it would be. Murderbike (talk) 02:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

submarines General Sanjuro and General Mola
Archimede class submarine and Spanish submarine C-3 contradict each other, the first says that Archimede was renamed General Sanjuro and Torricelli was renamed General Mola, whilst the latter says that Archimede was renamed General Mola and Torricelli was renamed General Sanjuro. This contradiction requires attention. 76.66.195.190 (talk) 11:29, 26 December 2008 (UTC)