Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sumo/Archive 1 June 2007- November 2008

Sumo

 * Description : This wikiproject would be dedicated to sourcing, standardizing, and improving articles related to Sumo. Sumo is becoming more and more international, so it is not necessarily only connected to Japan.  As it grows stronger in more countries, it is still seen as the traditional national sport of Japan, and there is a long history and culture related to sumo.  Many people on Wikipedia are interested in sumo, and interested in improving sumo on Wikipedia.

Many articles related to sumo wrestlers are not sourced or poorly sourced, such as Takanohana and Asashoryu. Historical sumo wrestlers such as Taiho or Akashi Shiganosuke are both poorly sourced and need to be expanded.

In addition to sumo wrestlers, there are also what is known as sumo heya, or stables, which are an integral part of the sumo system, and anyone with a passing interest in sumo will quickly want to know more about these stables. These articles in the english wikipedia must be improved.

There are also many general articles such as yokozuna, gyoji and the Japan Sumo Association directly related to sumo which could be improved and expanded with a unified look by a WikiProject related to Sumo. Sumo content in indirectly related articles such as Shinto and promotion and regulation could also be improved with a focused WikiProject.

Therefore, I feel it is neccessary for Sumo to have its own WikiProject. Please feel free to add any comments or suggestions.


 * Interested Wikipedians [please add your name]
 * 1) XinJeisan 16:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) TCC (talk) (contribs)
 * 3) -Jmh123 20:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC) There are currently 45 Wikipedia pages as well as 23 pages in 3 subcategories in Category:Sumo_wrestling.
 * 4) I would also like to see more sumo-related content on the Sports Current Events pages. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 21:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Long overdue! --Auximines 21:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) Pawnkingthree 08:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 7) I'm in. Kaiketsu 10:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 8) Malnova 15:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 9) Kotogoushu 10:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC) Going to start working on some missing pages in the coming weeks when I get some free time.
 * Comments
 * I suggest making this a task force of WikiProject Japan. Dekimasu よ! 02:15, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Why? Is WikiProject American football a task force of WikiProject United States? Sumo is now an international sport, and although its roots in Japanese culture are deep, the interest it attracts is far broader than Japanophiles. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought about this as well, but looking at the Sports Wikiprojects, in addition to WikiProject American football there is also American Football, there is WikiProject Gaelic Games. Also, I think if you look at the 8 people who have joined this project, most of them have been working hard to improve sumo here.  However, I don't have any experience with either a project or task force, so I don't think it is a bad idea to discuss it more.  For the moment, I can set up a temporary project page on my talk pages.  After some more discussion here, and a creation of some stuff on the temporary page, we can make a final decision.XinJeisan 18:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Various naming issues.
On naming heya: I really think we ought to call heya by their proper names; e.g. Naruto beya instead of Naruto stable; Kokonoe beya instead of Kokonoe stable, etc. For one thing, I have no idea why "heya" is translated "stable" in the first place; that's not what it means. It's also a usage I only seem to encounter in sources that don't know what they're talking about. Everywhere else, including goo Sumo, uses "heya". (Or "beya" in the case of my example, but I suppose in English it's a judgment call when to consider it part of a compound and when not.) The category should be renamed accordingly. Considering that anyone who doesn't know that word isn't going to have enough of a clue about any particular heya to search for it by name, I don't think this would impose any obstacles.

Second, I think Category:Sumo wrestling should be renamed to Category:Sumo. "Sumo wrestling" is a redundant expression, isn't it? It's like calling the martial art "Karate fighting" instead of just plain "Karate". TCC (talk) (contribs)


 * It seems most of the heya articles are started by User:Auximines so we should probably ask their reasoning. Whatever we decide, we just need to be consistant.  I usually side on the translation side, myselt: there is no reason to use a Japanese word in English when an English one will do. But, I would side on goo Sumo, since that info comes directly from the Sumo Kyokai, in this case as well. Finding out what the actual heya/stable's call themselves.Either it is heya or it is stable.
 * We also need to make sure articles are encyclopedic and not just dictionary definitions. Like toshiyori is just a translation of the word into english.  if that is all the information that can be attributed to it, it should be deleted, I think.XinJeisan 08:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Or taken up into a general article on the organization of the Nihon Sumo Kyokai. But I essentially agree with that last.


 * The trouble with "heya" is that it's a goofy translation. The word means "room", not "stable"; you'll only find it listed as "sumo stable" in references because it's so common, not because you'll ever find a horse kept in anything called a "heya". (That sense of "stable" is "umaya", if I read the hiragana correctly.) Perhaps I'm just being cynical, but I suspect that translation came about due to Eurpoeans' ideas about the character of sumotori as nothing but big animals. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Kanji: 部屋 -- Heya. 厩, or 廐, or 馬屋 -- stable or barn. TCC (talk) (contribs) 09:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's analyze the English usage instead of the Japanese. One definition of stable from dictionary.com is:"A: a number of people, usually in the same profession, who are employed, trained, or represented by the same company, agency, manager, etc.  B.	the establishment that trains or manages such a group of people: as in two boxers from the same stable."  In this context, the use of stable is perfect.  I am sure we have all heard the phrase "stable of talent" referring to the people at a certain agency etc. and I am sure this phrase comes from the above meaning.  Now, the use of "stable" in these contexts may sound somewhat archaic (though I found quite a few hits for "boxing stable" on Google), the term "heya" itself for an establishment that trains people for a sport or profession is also archaic as far as I have ever heard or read the word used in Japanese.  But that is what sumo is all about, protecting the archaic from the modern, all the way down to the top-knot that wrestlers still wear.   And besides, the term stable is well-known and used among English speaking fans of sumo (in addition to using the word heya) in Japan.  And I really do not think Japanese terms should be over used.
 * And while we are on this subject, sumo is indeed called "sumo wrestling" by people not very familiar with it. When I try to talk about my love of sumo when I am home in the states, my friends always check me with, "are we talking about sumo wrestling?"  But I think in the context of articles just sumo is fine, and that "sumo wrestling" could be redirected to just "sumo". Malnova 10:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I really don't think "heya" is over-use of Japanese. Over-use would be insisting on "sumotori" or "rikishi" instead of "sumo wrestler". And the English you're talking about isn't archaic in the least; it's slang. Old slang, but slang nonetheless. (It says "informal" right here: in the first dictionary listing given, not further down where you found the definition you gave earlier.) You can look in the phone book all day and never find a "stable" full of boxers. It's called a "gym". "Stable" is just fine for "heya" as slang, but an encyclopedia shouldn't present slang as if it was correct use any more than you'd say "boxing stable" when you meant "gym". (And if you go just a tad further down to the entry from the Online Etymology Dictionary, you find it also applies to prostitutes. I don't think we want to promote that kind of association.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 11:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I know very well it's "sumo wrestling" to people who know nothing about it. Again, we ought to be promoting correct use in our titles. TCC (talk) (contribs) 11:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the point you have made about "sumo" vs. "sumo wrestling" was the point I was stumblingly trying to make.

Stable appears to be an established term for a group of wrestlers who train together, according to many references I have found, not the least of which is wikipedia. Regardless, I completely missed your point the first time around that "heya" is the term that the Sumo Assocation uses. If this is the form they use, I think we should use it as well (which was my argument against the informal English and Japanese use of "aki, hatsu" etc. for the tournaments.) As long as we make redirects from "Naruto stable" etc. to the Heya articles, I don't see a problem with it. We might even mention that stable is an informal use in the articles.Malnova 12:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't have the pleasure of being in Japan for the moment, so I can't check, but what do the english announcers on NHK use. Rather than deciding for ourselves what the proper use is, we should use what is commonly used by the "official" sources. The official sources would be the kyokai and the NHK English announcers.  Whatever we decide on, we need a redirect from the other one, that is for sure.(sorry forgot to sign)XinJeisan 23:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Musashigawa uses both beya and stable on its English website but Sadogatake uses only stable. XinJeisan 23:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Fictional Sumo-sans
One thing we need to do is clean up the categories. They seem to be applied in a haphazard way. If Category:Fictional Sumo wrestlers is not proper, then it needs to be taken out of the sumo category all together. Are fictional baseball players under the baseball project or fictional martial artists covered in the martial arts project. Those are probably the best places to look. XinJeisan 08:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The project and the categories don't need to be organized along the same lines. It perhaps makes some sense for Category:Fictional sumo wrestlers to be a subcategory of Category:Sumo wrestlers, but writing about the latter is most likely not related so much to sumo as it would be to the fictional setting in which those characters are found; and in that case neither they nor their category should come under the scope of the project.


 * However, where the categories are badly arranged, we can certainly take it upon ourselves to fix that. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me XinJeisan 08:44, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

List of active sumo wrestlers
I've been going through this list trying to eliminate the red links. Kaiho, Toyozakura, Jumonji etc don't appear here because it only covers makuuchi rikishi. Is it worth expanding it to juryo wrestlers as well? Or just former makuuchi? Pawnkingthree 09:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we ought to cover anyone who's made makuuchi, and anyone in juryo (or even lower; I'm thinking of people like Ichinoya) who's been around long enough to achieve some kind of notability. It's not worth the trouble to write articles on rikishi who are only sekitori for a short time and then disappear, IMO. TCC (talk) (contribs) 11:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree with all of that. Who's going to be the first to write about "the world's oldest active rikishi" then? :) Pawnkingthree 11:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've added all the former makuuchi rikishi I can think of. We definitely need an article for Takanowaka-- he's a former sekiwake! Pawnkingthree 12:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. We should start with all the current Makuuchi wrestlers, because that is what newer fans will be interested in (and I guess Pawnking3 has already done this) and then move on to long time active rikishi who are former makuuchi (especially sanyaku). Getting some pictures that can be safely used for profiles as well is probably too much to ask. I do attend 2 or 3 days a year, but these days I can't be bothered to take pictures. Malnova 20:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia notability states for sports people that being in a professional league is enough. That would mean everyone in juryo should be considered notable.  But, instead of a list of active sumo wresters, shouldn't we just put up a banzuke for every basho.  Then people could see when rikishi are active or not depending on the time.  A list of active wrestlers needs to be updated every tourney anyways.  I found this off a user page.  He doesn't seem active anymore, but we should set up a template so wikipedia can have every banzuke up.  that is the only true way of showing if a wrestler is active or not.XinJeisan 23:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * As I mentioned on Malnova's talk page, about my having left the year links in the tourney box template: I was thinking that we might eventually want to provide year-by-year sets of basho results. (Other sports projects do this, for example 2006 NFL season, which has numerous subpages giving complete results by team.) It's natural to organize basho results in banzuke order if we're just giving final bout scores. (Unless we're being very ambitious, I don't know if we'll ever get to showing bout-by-bout results.) It would then be natural to link the years in the tourney box to the yearly results page as a cross-reference, instead of to the almanac pages like they do now. The yearly results would of course also link back to the individual rikishi's pages.


 * If we are ambitious enough to give individual results for each bout (winner, loser, kimarite), then we'd probably want to show them on one or more pages for each basho, depending on how many divisions we're covering. The cells in the tourney box could then be linked to the basho pages so a reader could "drill down" for more detail.


 * I am such a geek about all this shit.


 * I'll make the basho template up next then, after I finish the userbox and project page template. Both of these are fairly simple; it's the graphic that's giving me a bit of a headache. I'll probably incorporate the same subtemplate I used for the tourney box with appropriate tweaks, so the results can be given right along with the banzuke itself. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Term conventions
This is related to "naming conventions" but anyway... I think maybe Csernica brought this up, but there needs to be a consensus on how to use sumo-specific terms in sumo related articles. I have a tendency (that I really just noticed) to capitalize "titles" such as Makuuchi and Sekiwake. But many people don't and this does not seem the norm in sources outside wikipedia. I am thinking the easiest and most consistent method would be to italicise every sumo specific Japanese term, which seems to obtain in many other sources. This would include terms like rikishi, sekitori, basho etc., (which I think are overused anyway in sumo articles, but that is another issue.) Any thoughts? Malnova 20:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe the MOS wants foreign words not in common use to be italicized anyway. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I figured that might be a convention, and it is certainly underused on sumo articles.Malnova 20:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We didn't actually talk about capitalization. I note that both the glossary at SumoForum and the NSK site don't capitalize division or rank names, so we should probably follow suit. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

new tourney table ref
So, I have been on a quest to give every May banzuke Makuuchi wrestler a tourney table. It's quite easy with most of the guys left as they have only been there a few basho. Anway, how are we referencing with the new tables? In my version of the table I put a line below with the reference, what is a good format for the new, Csernica tables, do we think? I noticed that Kaio's references, for example, whatever they were, have disappeared. Malnova 06:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I hadn't thought of that. What I can do is add a parameter for the data source to Sumo record box start, and if present insert a containing it in the caption next to the wrestler's name. You'd have to add a Notes or References section then with with , in response to a concern raised by the late, great XinJeisan. The realname parameter still works for backward compatibility, but it's deprecated.
 * Added microformat vcard classes, as I said above. See WP:UF for details.
 * Added parameters,  , and   for a wrestler's blog, website, or email addresses. It's not too uncommon for sumo wrestlers to have at least one of these.
 * Eliminated a few blank lines that got inserted along with some optional parameters at some point in the past. It should look a bit tighter in some cases now.
 * Made  an optional parameter. It occurred to me that for articles on retired rikishi it makes much more sense to use   than to force the rank parameter to be added.
 * Unfortunately most rikishi now have a current rank of "N/A" (this seems to have affected the komusubi and maegashira ranked rikishi and lower, but not yokozuna to sekiwake). Pawnkingthree 09:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'll have to come up with some way to make that work better. They haven't implemented all the useful string functions that would make it simple. It should look OK now; it's just that for most cases it won't link to exactly the right place. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest (and I added this to the documentation) that we use birth date and age for living rikishi and birth date for deceased. The age would in that case appear in the date of death row, using death date and age. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I missed XinJeisan's points about birthname and real name distinction. Where can I find this?  I want to confirm some things.  The reason I ask is becuause I tried to update my very first rikishi, Tamarikido, and it turns out he is ethnic Korean (he is a Japanese born descendant of Korean immigrants from generations back who still has Korean citizenship and no Japanese citizenship).  He has a Korean name and a Japanese name on top of his shikona. Malnova 07:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * At Template talk:Sumo wrestler infobox.


 * Ooh! Asashoryu just beat Hakuho. Since Kisenosato beat Kotomitsuki earlier, that gives him the yusho. Whatever slump he's been in over the last couple of basho... He's ba-a-a-a-a-ack! (Kotomitsuki has ozeki promotion in the bag anyway, no doubt.)

and that should work just fine.
 * Anyway, a case like you have here is unusual enough that it's probably not worth the trouble to accommodate it. You can just put his two original names under "birth name", separated by a


 * I'm considering a set of parameters to include a rikishi's shikona history, for those cases where they change a few times. What do you think?


 * I forgot to mention earlier -- over the course of doing this I found it inconvenient to create links to the rank names, as seemed appropriate. So we now have a template sumo rank link to take care of that. For example, gives . It might simplify fixing those redirects for you. It also means that no matter how we rearrange those articles in the future we can always point all the links to where they should go. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Browser issues
Recently I have been going through some of the articles and changing the simple internal links markup, such as "ozeki" into more specific internal links that read "makuuchi#Ōzeki|ozeki" etc. I saw this as necessary because even though the "ozeki" article (for example) has a redirect to the specific section in makuuchi, it didn't seem to work completely, and markup that only read "ozeki" would lead to the makuuchi article, but not the section itself. However, I recently switched over to using Mac Firefox (easier to edit with) and discovered Firefox has no problem going to the specific section even if the original internal link only reads "ozeki". My problem appears to be (so far) Mac Safari specific. Right now, I have no access to Windows Explorer or Windows Firefox, etc. (because I'm currently on vacation from (cough) work) and was wondering what happens when a User clicks on a the simple markup for ozeki, sekiwake, makushita, jonokuchi et al. Could someone test whether various Windows browsers can go directly to a section? Here are two or three examples written out in simple markup, where do they go? - makushita sekiwake ozeki? Thanks for your time. Malnova 04:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Works fine in Firefox and IE on the PC. It may that Safari doesn't work well with how MediaWiki implements redirects to sections. I notice it appears to be two "clicks" -- you have to go "back" twice to get to where you were after such a redirect as if it first loads the page and then automatically clicks the link to take you to the section. Whatever is done to make this happen just might not play well in Safari. You might want to check redirects to sections in other contexts. For example WP:REDFLAG should take you to Reliable sources. TCC (talk) (contribs) 05:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks Csernica. I did try your two links and Safari took me to the page, but not the section for the first link markup and the second was fine; so it is a problem with Safari.  This is good to know.  I am not going to bother with using specific markup (a lot more trouble to do, and time consuming) if only Safari (discounting Opera and others) is the problem, as most Users are on IE or Firefox.  I did, at least, already change all of the internal links in sumo to be more specific, so that even a Safari user would get to the specified section. Malnova 05:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

away from home
Hey, thought I should mention that from very early August until very early September I will be away from home, without any real internet access（besides the occasional internet cafe). I should be back in business before the next basho though. Malnova 00:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No worries. I for one will still be around to keep things ticking over!:) Pawnkingthree 09:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Did you know
Not to blow my own trumpet or anything but the Asahikuni article was featured on the main page today as part of the the Did You Know? section. You never know, it might make a few more people aware of WikiProject Sumo. Pawnkingthree 09:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

As I often make comments on your page, you are on my edit list, so I happened to see that. Good for you. You certainly deserve the exposure for you tireless efforts here. Malnova 12:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Hear hear! TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of recognition
The sumo infobox template that Cserica started (based on a table style from earlier) has been emulated (and credited) on the Japanese Wikipedia Sumo Project. If you go to the their project page and their newly added template you can see it. So we are making a few waves even in Japanese. Kind of reminds me the fact that you can now find California rolls (an innovation of sushi chefs in the US) in sushi bars in Japan.Malnova 03:50, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't take any credit for it. It was created by YukataNinja, who is completely responsible for its present look. His last edit on it was actually less than a month ago. All I did was to monkey with it a little, and not entirely successfully. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Although at this point I can't help but notice that it really ought to be named Infobox sumo wrestler to conform to the usual standard for infoboxes. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Oops, I should pay more attention; or at least check first. Malnova 04:08, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Record Box
Other than the occasional minor change I'm just a lurker here due to time constraints so I don't know how much standing I have to criticize but, while trying to include the data is commendable, I find the use of the six-basho record box format for older rikishi such as Umegatani to be somewhat misleading, as both the months and locations usually don't match the post-1958 format that is reflected in the table headings, and there's also the visual implication that there "should" be six basho even during those days... Zeyes 04:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I started the tournament boxes as what I thought was an easy to digest way to follow a rikishi's career. It was not designed with anything but the current system in mind. I have not made any of these earlier tourney boxes, but I agree something should probably be done, as it can be misleading. We originally just used wiki markup to make the boxes, but now there is a template that runs things and I know little about what makes them tick. We might have to ask someone who knows more than us what they think can be done about this issue. Malnova 05:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Let's have some discussion about what we'd like to see and how it would be easiest to use. Uniformity of style comes naturally with templates, but ease of use needs to be a prime design consideration. There are a number of special cases to consider depending on how far back we're adding records: various periods when, for example, honbasho weren't held on anything like a regular basis or always during the same months even when they occurred the same number of times a year; the existence of haridashi as an official status, the pre-1927 situation, various times when the regular schedule could not be met, etc.


 * Perhaps a table like this one isn't the best format. The Sumo Reference gives a rikishi's record differently: (record for Kaio). I'm not suggesting we record the win-loss record for every bout like that does -- although we might want to allow for it -- but the 1 row per basho approach might work better. This would mean re-doing all the tables we have so far -- right now the template doesn't care which basho it's reporting; it just creates a new cell in the row. It'll be annoying to convert them all without some kind of script, and that's something I haven't had to do with Wikipedia yet. (Might be fun to learn though.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I do see Zeyes's point, but I don't believe it's a major problem. I for one like uniformity in articles, and while I agree that the template can be a little confusing, to me the tables look a lot better than the wiki markup ones (which are also much more time consuming to produce). Would it be sufficient just to add a line at the beginning saying "the Nayoga and Kyushu tournaments did not begin until..." or words to thst effect? Plus I don't think any locations are incorrect. They all took place in Tokyo in those days didn't they? Pawnkingthree 17:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * At base, they're all Wiki markup. You only use HTML in templates because of limitations in template syntax. But what do you think of changing the format of all the tables? TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we need to change the format of post 1958 basho records. I think the current system makes it easier to digest how the basho systems works and the individual wrestler's record. And having heard PK3's input, I also agree a simple disclaimer at the beginning of pre-1958 record could be enough, if indeed the basho locations listed are not incorrect. Showing them in this way, could also be an education for the casual reader that the system used to be different and more haphazard. A simple column system would not elucidate this difference any more efficiently. It seems to me that we could spend more time adding content than trying to reinvent the wheel again. ADDENDUM: Wouldn't it be easier to tweak the template (or make an alternate for pre-1958) so that it doesn't automatically list the location and and/or month? Malnova 03:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What I could do is to generalize the existing template. The default scheme would be for the modern arrangement, but someone who's entering older records would be able to customize it for the era in which they're working. The changes to do this would need to be made for only. Then it would be up to the editor to insert the right number of basho each year. Or there could in effect be a set of these templates where you'd need to pick the right one for the years you're recording. (Or both, which is easy enough.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It might also be worthwhile to come up with a way to show when a regularly scheduled basho had been skipped, as I think occasionally happened in the war years. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The only thing then is that some rikishi will end up with two tables -- those whose careers span a point where the number of honbasho in a year changes. TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, having first made all the changes, I see this is not going to work at all.

Let's take the rikishi that Zeyes was first telling us about as an example. He made his makuuchi debut in December, 1874 -- the Fuyu (winter) basho. In 1875 only one basho was held at all, in April, designated Natsu -- close to the start of summer on the traditional calendar that year? Then in 1876 there were basho in January (Haru) and April (Natsu). 1877 had three basho, January (Haru), June (Natsu), and December (Haru -- was this the next year on the trad. calendar?). In 1878 there was one basho in June (Natsu). For the rest of his career (1879-1885) there were reliably 2 basho each year, Haru and Natsu, but while Haru basho always fell in January, Natsu basho was only usually in May. It was in June in 1879 and 1882.

Now how the hell can a record like that fit into any kind of table where the basho are in columns without misleading the reader just as Zeyes is saying? I am wide open to specific ideas. TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Progress
Zeyes raised pointed, valid concerns. If no further discussion is forthcoming, I just may do something unilateral. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you saying that because of the problems of representing the historical yokozuna we will have to remove tables with columns from every rikishi, including the post-1958 ones? I think that would be a shame as I think the current template is superb-- much easier to read than the Kaio example from Sumo Reference that you gave. Pawnkingthree 12:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * We could use the style of table (not sure of the correct name for it) that I used for Tanikaze and Raiden for any rikishi where the template is inappropriate. Would take some time but I am willing to put the work in. Pawnkingthree 12:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that's exactly what I'm not saying. But we need to come up with a solution, and the one previously proposed isn't going to work.
 * Your table looks good -- it's more or less the same as format I suggested earlier -- but a consistent look would be better if we can come up with one. It may not be possible, but I would at least like to see it talked about. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are implying either, Csernica. If "something unilateral" is not removing current tables, than my second guess would be that you want to mess with the current basho recording system radically. I am clear on one thing, for the record: I don't think the post-1958 recording system we have developed should be messed with just because it doesn't fit with the hodgepodge of bashos they had before that. A column system like the one for Tanikaze for historical wrestlers seems to me to be a good compromise. If we had a template for that as well, that would be great. Malnova 19:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have three 5 page papers to write by Tuesday (US time) on Japanese domestic politics and foreign affairs so I don't want to become too involved, but I just wanted to come out of lurk status quickly to say I think the post 1958 tables look great, and that they should not be tampered with. In addition to looking great, many people spent a lot of time on those and that work should be respected as well.


 * I personally didn't even realize that there was a difference between the system between before and after 1958. To have a different set of tables for a radical change in the system doesn't seem to be too big of a problem, in my opnion.  In fact, it reinforces the fact that there is a difference between the tables of the two time periods.  That seems to be acceptable to me.


 * To keep some continuity, it might be a good idea to combine PK3's table but add the colors of the post-1958 system table -- like a green highlighted box for a yusho. i have no idea how to nor time to figure out how to write that kind of code, but that might be a good compromise between the two. XinJeisan 07:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Good to have you around again, XinJeisan, if only fleetingly :) I'm afraid I don't have the knowledge either to create such a template: I guess that would be down to you Csernica, if you're willing? Pawnkingthree 15:29, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

For the record, a re-designed table has now been put into Umegatani and other yokozuna articles, thanks to the efforts of User:FourTildes. Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Stables
Having spent quite some time on rikishi bios, I was thinking of moving on to stables. Do we want a page for every stable? We have about half now. I was thinking of going ahead and making stubs for all the rest of them, but are they all notable enough? Pawnkingthree 21:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, all significant wrestlers have articles, so really, all stables should as well. I think we should start with stables that have juryo or above wrestlers in them, so that links to the stable can be made in their articles.  I don't know where we could go for good stable source info though.  Malnova (talk) 21:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've made a start. I agree we should stick to sekitori stables for now. I do have some books as sources, although they are a little out of date. I see Isenoumi stable has already had a notability tag put on it, so I'd better flesh that one out a bit. Pawnkingthree (talk) 09:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Go Koto Go, Updates
I had to go see it myself. Got up at 5 and went to Ryogoku to get a non-reserved seat, bummed around the Akihabara/Ryogoku area for a while then came back to watch the 14th day. I was so afraid Oshu would choke and disappoint us all. I should have had more faith. He came thru. I would have booed his butt if he'd had another easy loss. I think he has the confidence to go all the way to Yokozuna now. We, the crowd were screaming so loud when he won that we could barely manage more than golf claps for the two yokozuna's bouts. Anyway, I am happy to help update all the wrestlers for tomorrow's ending of the tournament. It is a big task. Who is with me? Sign your name if you have time.
 * FourTildes (talk) 10:55, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC) As I wasn't around for the last basho I'll definitely pitch in. And I'm very envious of you!:)

Well, PK3, let's hash em out. How bout half of all of them right down the middle? I'll do the first half alphabetically of Makuuchi, Juryo and lower divisions, and you can do the last half alphabetically. Let me know if this is all right. FourTildes (talk) 09:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sure no problem; I'll take care of N-Z then. Pawnkingthree (talk) 09:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion
There needs to be a List of most sumo tournaments wins or smething like this. use for reference. Nergaal (talk) 15:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a good idea actually; perhaps Sumo records to also include most bouts, most wins etc. Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's now up and running at List of sumo records (I'll make the alternative titles redirects). Pawnkingthree (talk) 09:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Yusho
I'm wondering whether Yusho (I suppose Yūshō is technically correct!) can stand as an article in its own right. I've been doing a bit of research and it's actually very interesting how the system developed. Here's what I've come up with so far: Yusho is the tournament championship in sumo, awarded to the wrestler with the most wins. The concept of a prize for a wrestler's individual performance is a relatively recent one. It evolved gradually from wrestlers simply picking up cash thrown into the ring by spectators after winning exciting matches (common in the Edo period), to wrestlers being given trophies and prizes from private sponsors for performances over an entire tournament (beginning in the Meiji period). Trophies were at first given only for undefeated records, but since draws, no decisions and absences were all possible outcomes, several wrestlers could be eligible and it did not necessarily go to the man with the most wins. In January 1900, the Osaka Mainichi Shinbun newspaper announced it would give a prize of a kesho-mawashi decorative apron for either an undefeated record or for the fewest losses, and if there was a tie, the wrestler who had defeated the most high ranking opponents would win the prize. Champions were regularly designated from 1909, beginning with Takamiyama Torinosuke, and the official yusho championship system was formally recognised in 1926 by the newly formed Japan Sumo Association. Since 1947 a playoff system has been in place to determine the winner of the yusho if two or more wrestlers finish with an identical score. Until then, the yusho would go to whoever was the higher in rank as it was presumed they had faced better quality opposition, but this caused controversy in 1928, when ozeki Hitachiiwa Eitarō was chosen over Misugiiso despite the fact that one of his wins had come by default. There was similar criticism when new maegashira Chiyonoyama was denied a championship in November 1945, despite winning all his matches.

At the moment I've just put it here because I'm not sure whether to create a new article, keep it in the glossary, or bung it in List of sumo tournament winners. Thoughts? Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

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i like sumo wrestling because it is fun and fun —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.68.95.169 (talk) 01:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC)