Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sumo/Archive 2 November 2008 - December 2012

Kuramae Kokugikan vs. Ryogoku Kokugikan
I was looking at the Japanese WikiSumo project and got to the point that the English language template was discussed and used (congratualtions!). However, the point was made that from 1958 until 1985 events were held at the Kuramae Kokugikan not the Ryōgoku Kokugikan. To have two very similar templates, one for wrestlers that wrestled only from 1958 until 1985 and only from 1985 until today, shouldn't be that big of a problem (or should it?). But, what about those wrestlers that wrestled both? I remember when we were putting the tables together and I didn't even think about it. Personally, I don't think their should be only one Kokugikan article to make up for this. And, now the current Ryōgoku Kokugikan explains some of that history. Are there any suggestions, or does it really matter? at this point? XinJeisan (talk) 02:57, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I hadn't even noticed that the links pointed to the specific venues, as it appears on first glance that link to Osaka, Nagoya, Tokyo and Fukuoka. Why not just change the link to Tokyo, or alternatively, make Kokugikan into a disambiguation page listing the different stadiums and link to that? Would save having to replace many bios with different templates which would be a bit of a pain (in my opinion). --Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:43, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I just made the disambiguation page. That is a great idea. XinJeisan (talk) 19:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * User:Dekimasu has changed the Kokugikan page back to an article, although more general than the previous article. I am not sure if I like this idea, but I was wondering if there were any ideas about this change here? XinJeisan (talk) 21:08, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There doesn't seem much point in doing that, as the new article doesn't really contain anything that wasn't in the two separate articles. A line that the word means "stadium of the national sport" could easily go on the dab page. Dekimasu mentioned a technical reason for changing it - " resolving unfixable dablinks" - I'm not quite sure what that means.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:39, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the issue is all the articles which link to Kokugikan rather than to the specific one being referred to in the article. There are many, many of these links, and it will require someone with knowledge of which one it's actually referring to to get them all changed appropriately. You can see the list of articles linking there here. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't really see any great advantage to going back to an article, but maybe I am not grasping the big picture (though I have read the exchange in Kokugikan's discussion page.) Perhaps we could have a few, "for the Kuramae Kokugikan click here" and "for the Rygoku Kokugikan click here" links at the beginning of the article, while retaining the information beneath it.  I have seen and also used this compromise for disambiguating when there is still info that needs to be in the body of the article. Dejima comes to mind.  I don't know if this is optimal, but I know I hate edit wars; they jaded me from a few other articles I used to edit.  I would like to avoid one on the sumo pages. FourTildes (talk) 21:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * As the article currently stands, it's short enough to read and comprehend within a minute or two, and the links are readily identifiable for those who want to go to a specific Kokugikan. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 22:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, we do know which kokugikan each link refers to, because the vast majority of those links come from the record template. If you see the template, we have tokyo linked to kokugikan. If the tournament is before 1985, it is refering to Kuramae. If the basho is 1985 and after, it is refering to Ryogoku. If you think of it in that way, that most people are coming from a link in the template trying to find out about where the basho was held, and instead come to a page that defines kokugikan, that is even more confusing. I don't think the page Kokugikan reflects how we have formatted most sumo pages, and it is repetitive. If linking to the dab page is a problem, I would rather modify the template to not link Tokyo to Kokugikan, but instead at the bottom of the template mention that until 1985, matches are were held at Kuramae, after 1985 at Ryogoku. This was seen as too much busy work to do before (see above) but, stylistically, if given the choice, that is what I would prefer. XinJeisan (talk) 06:55, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * According to this page, the Fukuoka Basho was held at the Fukuoka Sports center from 1957 until 1974, and then at the Kyudenkinen Taikan (Kyushu Electric Memorial Gym?) from 1975 until 1986, and then moved to its current location at the Fukuoka International Center. We probably should change the template so that the cities do not link to an individual location, because the locations change depending on the date. XinJeisan (talk) 15:44, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That may be the easiest solution. We could just link to Tokyo, Osaka and Fukuoka instead of the venues themselves.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry for having been away. I would be fine with reverting Kokugikan back to a disambiguation page if the links are changed to direct to the cities. The main problem for me was that a template should link users directly to an applicable article if it's going to have a link, and this one wasn't doing that. Links to dab pages are deprecated, and this template has been making them systematically. (Separately, I note that Sumo Hall now redirects to Kokugikan. If the argument is that the term doesn't handle a specific concept, that should probably be pointed elsewhere.) Dekimasu よ! 12:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I changed the links on the template, and gone through a sample of those pages that are linked to Kokugikan and I can't find one that has a link to Kokugikan except for the former template. Does anyone know when/how the what links to this page is updated? XinJeisan (talk) 14:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * They are supposed to be updated in real time, but when something is linked through a template, the page isn't updated until it is sent through the job queue. You can jump the job queue and get the link to drop off the list by making a null edit to the page, but it isn't really necessary. If all the links were through the template, they should be as good as fixed. Dekimasu よ! 00:16, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

profile pics with no article
Here is a list for future reference of profile pics (and some tourney tables) that I have put up for wrestlers that only have articles on Japanese wikipedia (and a few that don't have articles there yet either). This is so that if these rikishi ever do get articles (and I am not implying at all that any of them "yet" merit English articles) their tourney table templates and/or profile pics could be easily transferred to English wikipedia.

active:
 * Amūru 阿夢露光大
 * Asahisho 旭日松広太
 * Chiyoarashi []
 * Chiyonokuni 千代の国憲輝
 * Chiyotairyu 千代大龍秀政
 * Chiyozakura 千代桜右京
 * Hishōfuji 飛翔富士廣樹
 * Hitenryū 飛天龍貴信
 * Hokutokuni 北勝国英明
 * Homarefuji []
 * Ikioi 勢翔太
 * Kimikaze 皇風俊司
 * Kitaharima []
 * Kotoyūki 琴勇輝一巖
 * Kyokushūhō 旭秀鵬佑司
 * Masunoyama 舛ノ山大晴
 * Masuraumi 益荒海幸太
 * Nakanokuni 仲の国将
 * Nionoumi 鳰の湖真二
 * Ōiwato Yoshiyuki 大岩戸義之
 * Sotairyu 双大竜亮三
 * Shironoryu 城ノ龍康允
 * Tenkaihō 天鎧鵬貴由輝
 * Tokushinhō 徳真鵬元久
 * Tokushōryū []
 * Toyonokuni 豊乃國大地
 * Tsurugidake 剣武輝希
 * Yoshiazuma 芳東

retired:
 * Daitetsu 大徹忠晃
 * Daiyūbu 大勇武
 * Ganyū 巌雄謙治
 * Hoshihikari 保志光信一
 * Kirinowaka 霧の若太郎
 * Kotoinazuma 琴稲妻佳弘
 * Kyokunankai 旭南海
 * Kitaseumi 北瀬海弘光
 * Minatofuji 湊富士
 * Oginohana 小城ノ花昭和
 * Ōikari 大碇剛
 * Sakaizawa 境澤
 * Shirononami 白乃波
 * Wakatenrō 若天狼


 * This is really useful, thanks so much. I've also collected all your pictures together at the Commons in the article Professional sumo – let me know if I've missed any out.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:05, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Cheers for that :) FourTildes (talk) 17:04, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Two additions
The local cable company finally has Japanese TV, so it was the first basho in a two and a half years I could see live on TV. And, it was a good one to see!

I created the Yamamotoyama by translating some basic info from the Japanese article. He seemed too popular in this basho to not have an article.

Also, I created a template so an external link can be easily created to the official biography on goo. I'm sure someone can make it more elegant but it is at Template:Goo Sumo

XinJeisan (talk) 18:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the Yama article and the link template. Yamamoto's picture is especially nice, heh. FourTildes (talk) 19:45, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Playoffs
Shouldn't there be a way to acknowledge a playoff win on our tourney table templates? Or is there a code? I don't remember. I recorded Asa's win as 15-1 and User:ACSE changed it back to 14-1 (and he was probably correct in doing this as per sumo conventions). But, I am thinking if there is no way to record a playoff win (or loss) with a code then couldn't we record it with a 14-2, 15-1 etc. designation? I suppose the best way is to hope there is a code for recording a playoff yusho or maybe we can make one. I have no idea how to do this. I contacted User:Csernica (the user who originally designed a template for the origianl tourney tables) about another change I was considering, but he seems pretty busy with other endeavors these days. Any suggestions? FourTildes (talk) 19:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The Japanese wikipedia just puts a note explaining what happens. But, I don't think that is a good idea.  We could make a win via playoff a different color.  Or, we can add something like playoff win and playoff loss (PW or PL) at the bottom with the sansho/kimboshi. The second idea has merit because then you can also add that to the losing rikishi's section as well. XinJeisan (talk) 20:20, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Sumo Reference uses D for a playoff loss, which stands for "yusho-doten", eg 14-1D. I think we should keep the same colour for all yushos, whether they're won by a playoff or not, but we could maybe use a different colour for a playoff loss.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:05, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I have continued tweaking a system for recording playoffs. It now looks a little different (better I think) as I have tweaked the designation and the explanatory note. I moved ahead and started editing articles for two reasons - that is the best way to solicit a criticism of an idea, and because I started to doubt the efficacy of a color code for playoffs because that would mean a new color for a playoff win (which would make a playoff win seem like something less of a win maybe?) and presumably an alternate color?? for a playoff loss.  I think the way I have presented the "P" for playoff now looks very integrated into the existing template with the only drawback being that the explanatory note is outside the template parameters. Criticisms, as I said, are invited. FourTildes (talk) 21:03, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I was thinking we could keep the green for a playoff win as a yushjo is a yusho, whether by a playoff or not. But the P looks fine. If the explanatory note could be within the template it would look better (as well as saving effort) but it's not really a big deal.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

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2008 in sumo
This is the first in what (I hope) will be many articles on years in sumo. Any comments appreciated, and of course if anyone wants to create some more that would be great!--Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I've begun 2009 in sumo, which we can add to as time progresses.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Good Article nomination
I've nominated Asashōryū Akinori for Good Article status. It'll probably be a least a month before it's reviewed as there's always quite a backlog.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:51, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's passed, so we now have two GAs!--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Images of May 2009 Makuuchi wrestlers
Copied from the sumo talk page:

Images of all participants of the first day Makuuchi division of the May 2009 tournament are available for use in articles. See on Commons, or look for the image name based on the scheme of File:Sumo May09 Homasho.jpg (just replacing the rikishi name accordingly). -- Arcimboldo (talk) 11:04, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you SO MUCH! I skipped out of the basho this month, and didn't get any pics. Priceless! Thanks again.  FourTildes (talk) 11:49, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Some great pictures there. Hearty thanks from me as well.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Requested move
It's been suggested that Takashi Saito (sumo wrestler) be moved to a more general article on the Tokitsukaze beya scandal; discussion is here.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

'See below' in infoboxes
I started this discussion with FourTildes and would like to continue it here (started from my talk page User talk:YukataNinja) Yukata Ninja (talk) 04:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi. The "see below" addition to Asashoryu's inbox (and the inbox of many of other wrestlers if you've noticed) was an effort to try to attract more interest to the tournament tables we added way back, and also to simplify the updating of wrestlers' info by removing the redundancy of having to enter the current rank twice every tournament for people who are updating rikishi. But, I suppose, as you mentioned, it doesn't save any work in updating for Yokozuna (and less so Ozeki), so I decided not to dispute your revert (though the attempt to attract more attention to tournament tables is thwarted). I see your name is also on the list of "participants" on the wp:sumo page, and your continued assistance is appreciated with Asashoryu and hopefully beyond. FourTildes (talk) 11:16, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I have not been keeping up with the Sumo wikigroup, was this a decision to change all to use a see below format? I think it kind of defeats the purpose of info boxes which give valuable information in an easy to see way and place.  Directing the user to elsewhere in the article takes some of that away.  Also, the info box has a last updated info section to alert if data might be out of date.  I agree that having to update all the time might be tedious, maybe just listing the main rank name instead of name and number would be helpful.  Also, your edits were from an IP address, so I was unaware they were made by a project member. Yukata Ninja (talk) 04:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Should the info box have instead of current rank something like highest achieved rank? Would that make a difference? XinJeisan (talk) 06:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi again. Yes I did notice later that I forgot to log in for some of the wrestler's changes, which made the edit(s) look much more dubious. Sorry about that. The see below is only for Sekiwake and below whose rank changes tournament to tournament. This "see below" scheme is not done for Yokozuna and Ozeki, whose ranks do not change from tournament to tournament (which was due directly to your point about Asashoryu). It is also not done for Juryo and below wrestlers whose exact rank is not listed in their tournament tables for the time they are in the lower divisions. Two reasons are because it attracts attention to the somewhat newer tournament tables and also it avoids repeating the same information twice. But I will confess, that this was not my primary motivation. My primary motivation is because after an initial enthusiastic wave, no one else is updating either the info tables or the tournament tables except for I and User:Pawnkingthree, with occasional help here and there from User:ACSE. I, actually, agree with your sentiment, Yukata, but I was hoping to find a way to reduce the workload, as this information does not update itself. I wanted feedback before I did this, and I did ask PK3 before I went ahead. Admittedly I should have put my idea on this page instead of his talk page. PK3 suggested we could even take out rank/current rank itself from the infobox instead of putting in the "see below", but I decided I preferred to have it in. To make a long story short, I would be perfectly happy to go back and rv my own work if I knew that it wasn't going to be just PK3 and I next time around (a little over two weeks from now) updating the wrestlers' pages. I look forward to your feedback. Also, XinJeisan, there is already a "highest (achieved) rank in every infobox. FourTildes (talk) 21:33, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It wasn't until I read your comment again, Yukata, that I noticed that you suggested possibly only putting the rank title, which effectively removes the necessity to update current Maegashira. This is an interesting idea worth considering as a compromise, though it does nothing for Komusubi and Sekiwake who usually don't last long at said ranks. The idea of just putting the rank only for Juryo (with no number) and below in the infobox also occurs to me now that I see your suggestion. This would mean that Juryo and below's wresters' exact rank would no longer be listed on their respective pages, but it is something worth considering. FourTildes (talk) 21:56, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * As the original creator of the sumo infobox, User:YukataNinja's opinion is of course valuable and welcome, and I can see his point that the infobox should ideally be able to stand alone and not have to refer the reader to another part of the article. However, as User:FourTildes remarks, when there are only one or two of us updating it does become very time-consuming, and this is time that could be used to improve articles. In fact I recall this exact criticism being made over on the Sumo Forum when the Sumo WikiProject was being discussed. In this case, I thought it was a worthwhile labour-saving device. But if we get a couple more volunteers after the end of this basho it wouldn't be too much work to put the current rank back in, if that is the consensus.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with your consensus, I'm all for time saving, just wanted to make sure there is a standard. Yukata Ninja (talk) 00:36, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Japan sport task force
WikiProject Japan is looking to create a sport task force to help with the coverage of sport in Japan. If you are interested in participating, please go here and indicate your interest in helping out. Thanks! ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Useful reference for "fighting style" sections in bios
This article lists rikishi's favourite grips: Hakuho, Kotooshu, Kotomitsuki, Roho, Tokitenku, Tochiozan, Takamisakari, Kasugao, Hochiyama, Kitazakura, Shimotori, Goeido, Hakurozan Kaio, Tamanoshima, Futeno, Kisenosato, Kotoshogiku, Wakanosato.
 * Migi-yotsu specialists:
 * Hidari-yotsu specialists:

--Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

GAN backlog reduction - Sports and recreation
As you may know, we currently have 400 good article nominations, with a large number of them being in the sports and recreation section. As such, the waiting time for this is especially long, much longer than it should be. As a result of this, I am asking each sports-related WikiProject to review two or three of these nominations. If this is abided by, then the backlog should be cleared quite quickly. Some projects nominate a lot but don't review, or vice-versa, and following this should help to provide a balance and make the waiting time much smaller so that our articles can actually get reviewed! Wizardman 23:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

new way to handle current rank for lower wrestlers
First of all in my User:FourTildes/sandbox 2 I put the active wrestlers article back into separate divisions. The reason for this being is that I thought that for the Juryo and below wrestlers' individual articles' Infobox Current Rank listing we could put in a "see here" (ala the see below link already in place for Maegashira wrestlers) and the "here" in the "see here" would be linked to the division heading in the active wrestlers article. Again, this means we wouldn't have to update this info twice for both articles, the active wrestlers article might get more exposure, and b/c I think it's kind of keen. It would also mean that the sorting code that I devised for the active wrestler article could be made simpler as well, but that is a small plus. And of course, wrestlers moving in/out of divisions would have to be moved manually between the divisions, but that is only 2 or so a basho. Doable? FourTildes (talk) 22:12, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

kinboshi / gold stars
Hi. Back when we were establishing conventions for sumo terminology and the tourney tables were still knew, I believe it was I who was insistent about calling kinboshi "gold stars" to try to keep in the spirit of using terminology a layman can follow. In retrospect, this was overkill. I have never heard the word "gold star" used by anyone except when explaining the literal meaning to someone. The JSA site also uses "kinboshi" and if someone were to click on the term kinboshi he/she would see the article and the term's origin. Besides, "gold star" sounds like something a grade schooler gets for washing his hands with soap ( If there are no complaints, I plan to go thru the articles and the templates on sumo wiki and root out any "gold stars" in favor of "kinboshi". FourTildes (talk) 20:25, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fine by me, but I think within the infoboxes we should be consistent and use either the English or Japanese, not both. Therefore I think we should also change "Prizes" to "Sansho."--Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

shikona
Hi again. Once again, using JSA's site as the standard, I am considering changing references to "fighting name" as the English equivalent for "shikona" to "ring name" (which is what the JSA site uses). I am not thinking of changing all the references to "shikona" spread all over English wikipedia, because those references are usually linked to the corresponding article. If you have any objections, comments, feel free. FourTildes (talk) 21:17, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's sensible to go with what the JSA does, I think. "Ring name" is the more common term; it even has its own Wikipedia article. We should update the Conventions section of the WP:SUMO page once we've decided on everything.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:33, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Moriurara
Sumoforum thread, sounds like potential DYK material for someone who understands Japanese language sources ;) --Staberinde (talk) 18:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If there are sources out there I don't know why we can't have an article, even if he is only notable for losing. After all, we have Ichinoya who never made it out of sandanme but is notable for longevity.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:04, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I checked Japanese wiki and he doesn't have an article yet in either name incarnation. If he is that "famous" and notable I would think he would.  Not that we always have to follow jawiki's lead, we have beat them to the punch before.  Anyway, when I was looking for him on jawiki, the closest name, kanji-wise anyway, that popped up was 有森麗 who is an adult film regular.  I am sure this is not her birth name either. (FourTildes (talk) 22:07, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I notice that the equine original has an article here on the English Wikipedia...--Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:53, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

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Heya articles
Every time I'm browsing the stables articles I'm a little bit annoyed about the various inconsistencies that have crept in over time, and I think I've finally reached the point where I'm going to do something about it. :) However, before I go a-changing I'd like to see if there are any aspects that I'd rather leave alone lest they just get changed back by somebody else. Well, here goes:

- I'd like to change the header of the first section from "X-oyakata" to something like "Owner" to give it an actual category title, like the others already have. (If somebody has a better idea than "Owner", let me know...admittedly I'd just as well write "Shisho" if it wasn't for the English-first mandate.) Additional question: Since I have the data anyway - and nowadays it's also on Sumo Reference, of course - would it make sense to add the current owner's predecessor(s) as well? Some of the major stables already have this. I suspect only a minority of the former owners have their own rikishi pages, though.

- Real names: The worst listings are those found on some shisho names, e.g. "Ono Shigeru (given name) (former sekiwake Tamanofuji(ring name))" That's just unsightly. More generally I'm wondering exactly which stable members even need a real name listed...gyoji and yobidashi make sense because their "sumo name" is essentially just a given name and they look a bit anonymous if only that is listed. On oyakata and active rikishi I'm not so sure, but I guess I'll leave them in for them, too. (Thoughts?) At any rate I'm planning to rewrite the entries to something like "Owner: Kataonami Daizo (former sekiwake Tamanofuji, real name Shigeru Ono)" to reduce the clutter of brackets and stuff - BTW, is potentially having the phrase "real name" half a dozen times on each page (oyakata, gyoji, etc.) a bit overkill? I've thought about leaving it off and just listing the name, but that seems to be as confusing as the alternative is annoying.

- Pet peeve alert: Barring convincing arguments to dissuade me, the category "Toshiyori" is going to change to something like "Affiliated Oyakata". It's not technically wrong, but stables don't really own toshiyori in any meaningful sense, so it always grates a bit. And the proper equivalent to gyoji etc. as stable members is "oyakata" in the sense of "coach(es)". Maybe go with "Affiliated Coaches" or just "Coaches" instead of "Affiliated Oyakata"? I use the Japanese terms so often on the Sumo Forum that I've lost all sense for what ought to be anglicized and what doesn't...

- The lists of Famous/Notable/etc. former rikishi appear to be a bit haphazard right now, sometimes only listing yokozuna, sometimes everybody who ever reached makuuchi. (And sometimes rikishi from previous, defunct stables of the same name.) Admittedly that's partially due to the wildly differing levels of success between different stables, so I'm not sure what a good compromise would be. I'm inclined to list all makuuchi, but that's probably a bit long for stables such as Dewanoumi... Perhaps a subtle but consistent distinction between "notable" (all former makuuchi) and "famous" (arbitrarily restricted list of top rankers)?

- Wakaimonogashira and Sewanin are currently missing as stable personnel, so if there's no problem with it I'll be adding those.

- I'm probably forgetting something right now, so if there's anything else that really should be changed globally while I'm at it, let me know. Zeyes (talk) 00:38, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm supportive of pretty much all your suggestions. The inconsistencies are probably to do with the fact that the heya articles were created rather haphazardly and I haven't given them as much attention as I probably should have. A great deal were created by a User:Leveni (I think he did the whole of the Nishonoseki ichimon) who I don't think is around anymore, and the "Ono Shigeru (given name) (former sekiwake Tamanofuji(ring name))" thing was his style, which I agree isn't the neatest- it should be cleaned up.
 * I would say for oyakata and rikishi a real name probably isn't necessary, as they more than likely have their own article anyway but I agree for gyoji and yobidashi it's useful. I've only just started adding the latter two, and haven't got through every article yet - if you could add the wakaimonogashira and sewanin as well that would be great (I'd be very interested to know just how many former sekitori have those jobs these days).
 * Happy with Owner instead of X-Oyakata. It was always my intention to list all the previous owners but until the "kabu" section of Sumo Reference appeared that was impossible for me. Coaches instead of toshiyori is a good idea. On English vs Japanese terms, it says here we should lean toward the English, so maybe we should go all the way and put "referee" instead of gyoji and "usher" instead of yobidashi - those are the English equivalents that the NSK site uses.
 * I would suggest just an arbitrary pick of former wrestlers: those that we have articles for, and those who maybe we should have articles for. No need to list everyone who's ever made makuuchi.
 * Some other thoughts: I wonder if it's worth listing current juryo as well as current (or ex) makuuchi?
 * I've also been wondering what to do about articles such as Hanakago stable and Kise stable, where there is both a current incarnation and a relatively recent but defunct one. Should we leave them as they are and try to cover both, or should we split the articles into Hanakago stable (1992-) and Hanakago stable (1953-1985) or something like that?
 * Lastly, there are still a handful of active stables with no article: should we just create the last few?--Pawnkingthree (talk) 02:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Note to self: Learn more Wiki markup. :) Many thanks for the response.
 * I was going to go with e.g. "Gyoji" as the category name and something like "Kimura Taro (sandanme referee, real name Suchandsuch)" as the actual entries (similar to how it's already done, just rewritten a bit) and introduce the English terms that way. It's perhaps a bit repetitive though and I agree that one might as well use the English terms for the categories themselves. (In fact, perhaps I should just turn around the idea: "Referee" as category, then "Kimura Taro (sandanme gyoji, real name...) as the entry?) Slight problem: I'm not sure I can think of proper translations for wakaimonogashira and sewanin...maybe a catch-all category named "Assistants" and then specify each guy's actual position, e.g. "Kenryu (sewanin, former juryo)"? If so, we could add the two terms to the glossary page to provide a link target.
 * Yes they're not easy to sum up in one word are they, but "assistant" would be fine, I think, if it's in the glossary.
 * I forgot about one category yesterday, namely tokoyama/hairdressers. Unfortunately it doesn't look like there are any places to look up their romanized real names - except for some official heya websites perhaps - so I'd either have to guess or (more likely) leave the names off.
 * Expanding the section on active rikishi from all (ex-)makuuchi to all (ex-)juryo is fine with me. Even for the biggest stables that's still at most half a dozen or so in total, so it's not going to end up in prohibitively huge lists. Selected lists of notable former rikishi work for me, too; your criteria sound like a good guideline.
 * Defunct stables...I'm not sure. The ja.wiki articles occasionally include a small historical summary as part of the article on the current incarnation, but don't go beyond that. I'm pretty agnostic on the question of whether integrated or separate articles are the way to go; we surely don't have to follow the Japanese model anyway. I think there are relatively few stable articles that already have such information included right now - I'd be inclined to transfer it to the associated talk page while I do the clean up and then we can discuss the individual cases again afterwards. (Isegahama stable is another article that has turned into a bit of a confusing mishmash, in that case of course largely due to the very short turnaround time from old to new stable.)
 * Missing stable articles...sure, I'll just go ahead and create them, at least as a barebones framework. You never know which stables will rise to prominence anyway...until a few months ago Arashio-beya was arguably most known only for having a decent web presence and offering guided keiko tours through a travel agency, and now they have a rising star in Sokokurai on their hands. Zeyes (talk) 16:10, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds great. It seems like you're undertaking quite a lot here, so I'd be happy to pitch in if you wish.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:44, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah, one more thing - what's your position on linking through section titles, e.g. "Referees"? There'd be links to the respective pages anyway, it would otherwise just go into the first person's entry, e.g. Kimura Taro (sandanme gyoji). Zeyes (talk) 00:26, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Links in section headings should be avoided, according to the Manual of Style (see ACCESS). It's fine just to put it in the first person's entry.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:47, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, here's a preview with all data dumped onto one page: User:Zeyes/sandbox - notable former rikishi have yet to be added, mostly because my motivation reached a temporary low after a week of collecting and verifying data. :) (Though at least I've got another bunch of data fixes to submit for Sumo Reference after that...) Speaking of former wrestlers, any ingenious ideas how to handle duplications with former owners and current coaches? Just leave them in?
 * Most of the redlinks for owners and coaches will still get removed, though I'll probably leave a few that might be added soon (e.g. very recent rikishi such as Kinkaiyama and Yotsukasa, or current stable owners such as Tochitsukasa).
 * Empty sections are generally omitted, except for "Active wrestlers...", where "None" will be displayed if nobody's been raised to sekitori status. That could still be changed of course, if needed, i.e. more empty sections, or none at all.
 * The entries in each section are sorted by rank first...for some categories alphabetically may arguably be better, but I couldn't decide which those ought to be so I went with a standardized approach for now. Comments on this and everything else welcome! Zeyes (talk) 22:22, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I would list former owners under the current coaches section as well, if applicable. But notable former rikishi who are also coaches I would only list under coaches. I wouldn't worry about red links - I don't mind them myself, and anyone who's competed in juryo or above has reached the "full-time professional" status that notability guidelines such as WP:ATHLETE suggest, so in theory they could have a Wikipedia article some day (he says, optimistically). And ordering by rank seems sensible - that's the way I've done it when I've edited heya articles.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 03:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Whew, so one Olympics [sic], one shindeshi recruitment period and one pretty entertaining Haru basho later...guess the Easter weekend should make for a good opportunity to finally work out the Famous Rikishi sections and add everything to the stable pages. Anything else new around here? :) Zeyes (talk) 22:21, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think you've missed much - it's been pretty quiet around here to be honest:)--Pawnkingthree (talk) 02:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Sports Notability
There is discussion ongoing at Wikipedia_talk:BIO debating possible changes to the WP:ATHLETE notability guideline. As a result, some have suggested using WP:NSPORT as an eventual replacement for WP:ATHLETE. Editing has begun at WP:NSPORT, please participate to help refine the notability guideline for the sports covered by this wikiproject. —Joshua Scott (LiberalFascist) 03:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Gambling scandal - own article?
So far our coverage of the gambling scandal and its fallout has been confined to 2010 in sumo and individual biographies, but I'm thinking i'ts now a big enough topic to deserve its own article. The Japanese Wikipedia, of course, has one. Thoughts?--Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:43, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry PK3, just noticed your post here. Oh, I definitely think the gambling scandal deserves an article. It's significance cannot be discounted. If you want to put something together, I think it could/should be done. If you do, I can try to help some. I'd make an article myself if I didn't find the whole thing so darn depressing.. FourTildes (talk) 22:00, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Plus, we have an article on the Tokitsukaze stable hazing scandal, although it's rather short. I think I'll make a start on something like 2010 sumo gambling scandal when I have the time.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Sumo articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release
Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Sumo articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (&diams;) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 23:40, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Date of Highest Rank
I was checking through some of the individual rikishi pages, and I noticed an inconsistency in the highest rank data. I went through all of the yokozuna pages, and on 11 pages, the date of the highest rank was their first tournament at yokozuna, while on 54 pages, the date of the highest rank was the date of their PROMOTION to yokozuna (i.e. the previous tournament). There was also a page that was neither (Wakanohana III) and one which I wasn't sure about (Miyagiyama, not sure if he was promoted in January or February 1922).

This inconsistency also appears to be present on the Ozeki pages. I have only looked at the previous 29 Ozeki, and it seems like for all except the 3 most recent, the date of their highest rank is their Ozeki debut, while for Kotomitsuki, Harumafuji and Baruto, the date of their highest rank is their Ozeki promotion (i.e. 2 months before their Ozeki debut).

Has there been a discussion before on what date to list for the highest rank for Yokozuna and Ozeki rikishi? I could not find one. If not, I think the best idea would be to list the promotion date for Yokozuna, and the debut date for Ozeki (which seems to be the case for the majority of the pages). I'm going to be bold and make those changes now (to at least make the dates consistent), but if you think the convention should be different, please discuss. Gazzawhite (talk) 22:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There hasn't been a discussion before, no. I agree that we need to be consistent, so we should probably make a decision here one way or the other. Of course, the problem only arises with these two special ranks as they are announced early - with every other rank we have to wait for the banzuke to come out. I suggest that we go with what reliable sources say. Unfortunately, there is inconsistency at the Sumo Association website. For current rikishi, they appear to go for the banzuke date. For example, the date of Hakuho's ozeki promotion is given as May 2006, not March, and his yokozuna date is July 2007, not May. But in their Yokozuna Retrospective section, Chiyonofuji's yokozuna date is given as July 1981, whereas he wasn't listed on the banzuke until September. I would suggest going with the banzuke date, although that would mean quite a bit of laborious work changing our yokozuna articles.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Listing the date as the earliest banzuke date is probably the most consistent, and I think that is now the case for the Ozeki. For yokozuna however, the rank didn't appear on the banzuke before 1890. I think back then, they were still listed as Ozeki, but got to perform a special doyho-iri. We could probably list the first tournament after they were awarded a yokozuna license. It appears Tanikaze and Onogawa were awarded their licences in the same month as their first yokozuna tournament, not sure if that is the case for any others.
 * Thanks for suggesting that website, Pawnkingthree. It seems that of the yokozuna listed on that retrospective page, all have the promotion date listed (i.e. the date of their last Ozeki basho), except for Asahifuji (banzuke date instead), and Azumafuji (rikishi debut listed, clearly an error). I tried the Japanese version of the site but I can't read Japanese, so I used Google translate. It seems that on the Japanese version, Onokuni's date is listed as November 1987 (whereas it is listed as September 1987 on the English version), while for the other ones that I tried (and where Google translate worked), the date of the last Ozeki basho was listed. It's a pity that the official sumo website isn't consistent or even up-to-date in some places, even in the native language. Gazzawhite (talk) 00:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I hadn't considered the fact that early yokozuna weren't on the banzuke - thanks for pointing that out. In those cases I think we should list the date they were awarded the licence. Good to have you on board, Gazzawhite - new contributors to this project always welcome:)--Pawnkingthree (talk) 02:58, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

The date should definitely be the month of the basho in which they first appeared at their highest rank I think. I was wondering if some of the inconsistencies didn't have to do with 3rd and 2nd Ozeki and whether they made East or West (as East is slightly higher) but I haven't had time to look into it. Of course if that was the case, East or West etc would probably have been listed next to the rank. If there are inconsistencies that can be made verifiably consistent, we could do it. It doesn't have to be done all in one lump, but over time as we have time maybe. Starting from the most current wrestlers. I will have more time next week, and I will take a longer look. FourTildes (talk) 20:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

At the risk of making things even more complicated - I think current (but not necessarily historical) NSK practice is to consider neither the day of the announcement nor the basho as the debut moment, but the banzuke release day. It's not a Y/O example, but FWIW from the juryo ranks which also get announced early: Tsurugidake earned his sekitori debut following Aki basho this year, and his promotion was announced on Sep 29. Press articles at the time called him "the last sekitori of Musashigawa-beya", as the stable changed hands and was renamed to Fujishima-beya on Sep 30. However, the Kyushu basho Banzuke Topics at the official site included this blurb: "Tsurugidake is the first rikishi to make his Juryo Division debut out of Fujishima Beya since the present oyakata (former ozeki, Musoyama) reestablished the heya on September 30th, 2010", implying that the announcement and the heya status on Sep 29 didn't matter for record-keeping purposes. The use of the banzuke release day is also supported by the occasional "oldest/youngest to achieve something" list in those Banzuke Topics, for which ages are always calculated based on the banzuke release.

In any case, short of going with those exact dates (which are unlikely to even be available for older rikishi), listing the basho month as the debut date seems more faithful to current standards to me than using the announcement dates, of course with the above-mentioned exception of yokozuna not listed as such on the banzuke. Zeyes (talk) 21:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

March 2011 "banzuke"
How should we treat the "watered down ranking list" indicating where the sekitori would have been for the cancelled March tournament? (The list is available here.) Should we update our bios as normal, and just leave the scores blank or indicate somehow in the tournament tables that the basho never took place? Or should we just ignore it and wait until the next official banzuke (presumably in May)?--Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:36, 28 February 2011 (UTC)


 * while there won't be a tournament, this is their official ranking that determines pay and status, etc. So I would think bios should be updated as usual.  There probably should be a special indication stating the march basho has been canceled, though. XinJeisan (talk) 07:40, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to agree. I see that the Japanese Wikipedia has updated as normal, but added a footnote - this seems the simplest solution.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:38, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I tried to update the template. I got it to say "tournament cancelled" but can't figure out how to get rid of the record so at the moment it just says 0-0-0.  check it out and tell me what you think? XinJeisan (talk) 08:29, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * That's great - that's just what I tried (and failed) to do the other day. I wouldn't worry about the 0-0-0; it is an accurate reflection of the score, after all.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I hadn't chimed in yet. I have been quite busy, and will be for another week or so. Anyway, I agree on using the watered down list PK3 linked, as it was put out by the kyokai for just this purpose. I also agree with the way Xinjeisan has managed to reflect this on the table. Yes, 0-0-0 seems appropriate as the kyokai did put out a psuedo banzuke that nobody will fight in. No complaints. If any active wrestlers are left to "update" by this weekend, I will most likely get around to updating them. FourTildes (talk) 20:00, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Eliminating win/loss records from infobox
Their has been a suggestion to remove win/loss records from the infoboxes of active wrestlers. There are a number of reasons this might be a good idea:
 * 1. They are time consuming to update.
 * 2. The same information in the same format can be seen at a number of other sites.
 * 3. Often, helpful users come in and try to update the tourney tables, but invariably neglect the infoboxes, leaving it to regular users to sort thru each article to see what is left to update.

Any comments or opinions are welcome. If we did take out win/loss records it wouldn't need to be done until the November tournament, so there is plenty of time to hash it out. FourTildes (talk) 23:43, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * As, the originator of the suggest, I'm obviously in favour. We could of course delete the field from Template:Infobox sumo wrestler, but that would have the effect of removing the records from all biographies, even the retired rikishi. As my only objection is to the extra work to update, I think it's best if when we do the banzuke update for November we remove the field manually, and then we'll be done with it.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The November banzuke is now out, so last chance for any objections...--Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

more complete tourney tables
I have been toying with the idea and concept of expanding tourney tables for a some or even all active wrestlers. If we were to expand wrestlers' tables to show juryo or even lower records, it would seem natural to add Championships for those divisions for wrestlers that achieved them. I believe the way I have chosen to integrate them looks, well (ahem) integrated - you can see a good example of this in Baruto's table, which I expanded. I was influenced by a number of factors in doing this, not the least by jawiki, which ported our tourney table but actually uses the ability to render lower divisions in wrestlers' articles. I am not fond of the way(s) they chose to render championships though, and hope I have come with a better alternative. Feedback welcome. FourTildes (talk) 08:46, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It is high time we expanded the tourney tables, at least for the most high profile rikishi. I think keeping the grey background for the lower divisions is a good idea, to distinguish from makuuchi, so I agree it would look wrong to use the green boxes for lower division yusho. I guess using the word "champion" is fine; the only other alternative really would be "yusho" but as we're already using "P" for "playoff" we should try to avoid mixing Japanese and English terms.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Update tourney box
Can someone who knows what they're doing update the tourney box with the Shinjo division? SJ for short would be nice. Kaiketsu (talk) 04:37, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Kaiketsu's recent welcome contributions reminded me I had been thinking of adding makushita tsukedashi to the basho table. I have made that addition, which can be seen in Kaihō Ryōji's article. I don't like things being added without a way for a newbie to know what it means, so I linked it.  Though this would be the first link inside a basho box that we have, I would like some way to explain it.  It seems it is rare enough that a separate note in the bottom of every basho table seems overdone.  But I am willing to listen to opinions.  I was thinking the same could be done for banzukegai (as opposed to another color).  I saw some discussion of "shinjo" above.  This could be added with little trouble I think, though I would like to hear more discussion of what it is. I assume it is a precursor to maezumo?

While I am at it, I see Kaiketsu edited Takanonami's article to take out mulitiple P's for playoffs, deciding it was confusing. I am the one who edited playoffs into tourney tables originally, and that was the most reasonable way I thought to reflect the fact that some wrestlers had to go through a lot of playoffs. I don't think it looks that confusing, I rather like it, but I am willing to hear opinions. FourTildes (talk) 23:19, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I only just saw you posted here; I already replied on Kaiketsu's talk page. I agree with you that it's not really that confusing and I think it's an interesting addition.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:08, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

I see no dissent, so I am going to go foward with editing the basho template to put in Makushita Tsukedashi status into the appropriate rikishi's tables with a link. I will also do the same for banzukegai, with a link and probably change the color back. I will also add Shinjo, which I would like to link and will if I can. Thanks. FourTildes (talk) 02:24, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

So, I have linked the makushita tsukedashi "rank" and am in the process of updating rikishis' tables. I have also linked banzukegai and maezumo in the tables which you can see in many rikishis' table. I thought the link was better than changing the color which is a big change from the current color scheme. Shinjo is added, but as a rank rather than as a general category. I did it, because that is how the Japanese template handles it - though it was originally based on ours of course ;)

Ok, a couple of comments:

1. The MT-"rank" solution is perfect, no need to improve on it. Good going.

2. I've mailed a couple of knowledgeable sumo friends, but everyone seems mystified about the Shinjo division. Thinking of contacting the NSK, see if they respond. Could we use the same grey tone as the lower divisions?

3. Sorry about the BG-box going blue, I experimented a bit and forgot to change it back.

4. The multiple "P:s" was alright when only makuuchi was present in the tourney box. Now with the lower divisions, where playoffs can involve a lot of people, it just looks retarded and confusing if we add (for example) seven P:s for a makushita playoff. Besides, the plural indication (P=Playoff(s)) is already at the bottom of the box. Playoffs, involving multiple rikishi should be present in "xxxx (year) in sumo" instead or we can link individual basho results from the box itself.

5. I would like the pre-1957 boxes to look like the current post-1957 box, with the same properties, for style and continuity sake. That means we have to create (at least) three new boxes. Anyone up for that idea?


 * Box 1: 1909 - 1926
 * Box 2: 1927 - 1932
 * Box 3: 1933 - 1952

I might be wrong here, so please correct me.

6. The reason for my recent activity (in case you wonder) is a broken foot and the boredom that comes with sitting at home, doing nothing. I will be adding more rikishi articles, using the three straight makuuchi basho minimum as threshold. Right now I'm working at adding as many juryo yusho winners as possible. Kaiketsu (talk) 20:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Replies in order: 1. Great. :)

2. Yes, I would rather have the shinjo designation if there were a link to what it actually means/meant; hope we can clear that up. I hadn't noticed the box wasn't grey, will look into that.

3. In the end, the blue Banzukegai box got me moving on my ideas for some rank designations, so no sweat.

4. Your playoff observation is valid, though at this stage I did not find the multiple Ps that off-putting. As they have been there for some time with no argument, I would have preferred to discuss it before randomly removing Ps as we came across them. I am not overly attached to the multiple Ps though.

5. Though I was the one who originally started putting up wiki tables in the 1 year per row style, it was User:Csernica who took the design and made the template. PK3 and I have tweaked it enough to make changes here and there, but it would be a very steep learning curve to make all new tables. I have contacted Csernica before, but he seems pre-occupied with other things.

6. Sorry about your foot, but all the new additions are nice! I am having trouble keeping up with all your new rikishi articles. If you get time, would you mind also giving them an entry in List of past sumo wrestlers? All past wrestlers are listed there. PK3 and I have added some of the ones you made articles for recently, but have fallen behind. If you would rather concentrate your energy on other things, I don't mind adding them myself when I get around to it. FourTildes (talk) 23:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, Kaiketsu is going at such a blistering pace that it's difficult for me to keep up too. Here is a handy list of all the articles he's created, which we can use to add to the past wrestlers article. I'm putting them all on my watchlist and will start fleshing them out when I get a chance, as several of these guys appear in my old sumo books which can be used for references. Great work Kaiketsu, keep it up!--Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:17, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I added in the best definition I could find for shinjo (from Japanese wikipedia) into the glossary so the link should go somewhere now. I also added shinjo shusse hiro, which is related. FourTildes (talk) 00:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * To attempt to clarify the shinjo system a bit - it was sort of a second maezumo stage. New rikishi who posted sufficiently strong results in their maezumo appearances were scheduled to face jonokuchi rikishi as off-banzuke participants later in the same basho, and if their aggregate result from both maezumo and shinjo warranted it, they were allowed to make their banzuke debut right in jonidan instead of jonokuchi. I'm not clear on what "sufficiently strong maezumo results" entailed, but I'm assuming it meant the rikishi had to qualify for the first (ichiban) shinjo shusse presentation by achieving the necessary maezumo wins quickly enough (though the timing of that presentation in those days is also a mystery to me - probably not Day 8 as they do today). Zeyes (talk) 21:11, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Additional references
Going on from my comments in the previous section, I notice that Enazakura has already been slapped with an 'additional references required' tag. This is bound to happen with WP:BLP articles, but it shouldn't be a problem because I have biographical information on him and the following new or need-to-be created articles in my old book Giants of Sumo: Fujinoshin, Hananokuni , Hananoumi , Jingaku, Kinoarashi, Kitakachidoki, Kotoinazuma, Sasshunada, Toyonoumi and Wakasegawa. I'll dig it out and do additions when I can.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

List of past sumo wrestlers
I will add them, as soon as I'm done creating the past juryo champs. I'm gonna tidy up the "change-of-shikona" section a bit in the champions list as well. I hate to say this, but we ought to have some sort of shikona section of some sorts in every bio as well. A monumental task though... Kaiketsu (talk) 23:47, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Of course, no hurry on the past list. I have thought about a shikona change section in infoboxes etc. but I like to think of our wikipedia stuff as a complement to sites that have come along like sumoref.com, rather than a competing source of information, and anyone that interested in all of the shikona changes could get them there.  Always something to consider though. FourTildes (talk) 00:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I've started to add the articles I've created. Began at the top of the list and will work my way down. Kaiketsu (talk) 23:42, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

All articles are now in the past and present lists. Kaiketsu (talk) 22:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I've seen! What a workhorse you have been. You even beat me to the basho updates this time around. Hope you stick around a while. The amount of articles you've made/improved/tweaked in such a short time is almost mind-boggling.  Good work.  I've almost thought about making an Asahisho article just to make makuuchi complete - maybe we'll see how he does next basho. FourTildes (talk) 23:11, 5 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Now, don't overestimate my contributions, the articles aren't really articles, just a foundation to build on. Some overenthusiastic lover of horses nominated me for autopatrolled, and I rightly got rejected. So more skilled people than me have to fill in the blanks. I agree with you on Asahisho btw.


 * I've seen here and there that certain threads at sumoforum.net is used as a reference, that just isen't good enough. Sure, Kintamayama reads and translates the japanese press alright, but never cites any sources. It's better to link to the japanese paper itself, e.g. the "scandal" involving Ikazcuhi-oyakata. Kaiketsu (talk) 02:15, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with you but nothing on ex Kasugafuji has appeared in English outside of Sumo Forum and unfortunately I cannot read Japanese. If you or FourTildes could add a Japanese source that would be great.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:07, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Juryo champs and Tatsuhikari Kumagoro
I'm almost done with the champs that had their hatsu dohyo from 1952 and onwards. No point in digging futher back, unless we get new tourney boxes. I'm also proposing that we include Kimikaze and Ikioi, even though they don't meet the "three-basho-makuuchi-requirement" for promotion to article.

Tatsuhikari Kumagoro died of liver cancer in Feb. 2011 (so WikiJapan says, but without a source), but I haven't been able to find the exact date. You got any more info? Kaiketsu (talk) 16:04, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That seems unlikely to me – he′s still listed as alive on Sumo Reference. Also, I could find no report on his death in the Sumo Forum archives, and I doubt they would overlook an ex makuuchi man dying at such a young age. --Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:51, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I decided to add Ikioi och Kimikaze, they are "otherwise notable", since they are juryo champs. I also update the juryo champions list with the all the yusho winners from 1909 - 1957. I suck at the diacritics though, so please check carefully, I probably missed a lot. Kaiketsu (talk) 23:39, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The three basho rule is not a hard and fast one, its just a guide, so that′s fine. I seem to recall that it stemmed from a feeling that having to continuously update the records of rikishi like Daimanazuru and Ryuho who kept going for years in lower divisions after their 15 minutes of fame in makuuchi wasn′t a very productive use of our time, and that we shouldn′t give too many of these one basho wonders articles.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:51, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I myself was considering giving any juryo wrestler an article if he got the yusho, but got busy and never did it. Ikioi and Kimikaze are likely going to be around a while, so I think they are worth it. FourTildes (talk) 09:11, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

RfC on the use of flag icons for sportspeople
An RfC discussion about the MOS:FLAG restriction on the use of flag icons for sportspeople has been opened at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons. We invite all interested participants to provide their opinion here. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:50, 24 December 2012 (UTC)