Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sumo/Archive 3 January 2013 - December 2016

sumoforum .de
I have just come to the realization that since SumoRef changed to the German URL, all of the links for wrestlers' sumo tables go nowhere. This should be fixed. I am however wary whether they plan to go back to the original or another server at some point? Any info on this? I decided to post a question about it on the Sumo Forum as well. FourTildes 08:59, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I've changed the URL from .com to .de for all rikishi on the active list + some all of the yokozuna. I'll hold on for a while and see where they go with it. Kaiketsu (talk) 18:26, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Kaiketsu, thanks for taking a proactive approach. It is appreciated. I agree, we can can hold on and see where they go with it. FourTildes 12:12, 28 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Every sumotori's article (at least those I could get my hands on) now has the .de URL. Kaiketsu (talk) 01:28, 26 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Having most (if not all of them) on my watchlist, I saw your progress through all the articles, as well with the categories. Thanks for doing all that. I myself recently did a massive switchover of my own (though yours must have taken even longer).  I'll know who to talk to next time I think another massive overhaul is in order. Zeyes' start on the sumo stable re-formatting might be an interesting place to start. FourTildes 01:53, 26 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the addtion of the categories was long overdue. Thought about doing them during my last stint here, but never got around. All 47 prefectures are now covered + the jr. san'yaku rikishi. Kaiketsu (talk) 00:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Portal:Sports is up for featured portal consideration
This is a courtesy message to inform the members of this project that I have nominated Portal:Sports for featured portal status. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Sports. The featured portal criteria are at Featured portal criteria. Please feel free to weigh in.  S ven M anguard  Wha?  18:39, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Hō'ō Tomomichi
(Also posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan) Hi. I'm looking for help with Hō'ō Tomomichi. The Japanese Wikipedia claims that he died two months ago but that claim was added by an anonymous editor and is unreferenced so it's possibly bogus. Since I don't understand Japanese and can't even write Google queries in the Japanese writing system, it's very difficult for me to look for sources and I'm hoping someone from this project can help out. Thanks, Pichpich (talk) 14:18, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I haven't seen any news coverage indicating that at all, and Japanese places in which this would likely be discussed also haven't mentioned anything as far as I can see. The edit on ja.wiki claims the March issue of the Sumo magazine as the source (which came out a week or so ago), but it would be highly unusual to see the death of such a high-profile wrestler mentioned in a monthly mag but not in the daily press (at the very least right after the monthly broke the story if there was one). Zeyes (talk) 22:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * A user has just listed Ho-o as deceased and provided this as a reference. Is it reliable?--Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Heya articles again
For some reason I got the urge to work again on the heya article improvements (standardization, really) I attempted three years ago but never ended up implementing except for the sandbox dump; I've now updated my data set and redone the Arashio stable article as a prototype. Any comments will be appreciated. Two questions that have come up:
 * I've settled on Owner/ActiveWrestlers/FormerWrestlers/Coaches/Assistants/Referees/Ushers/Hairdressers as the section order, under the theory that most people are probably interested in the wrestlers. Would the ex-wrestlers fit better elsewhere, though? They're the only non-current entries, after all, which might indicate putting them last, but that also seems to be out of whack with their actual importance.
 * The only section I'm planning to include even if it's empty is Active Wrestlers (as with Arashio), as the absence of any current sekitori is noteworthy in itself. However, would it make sense to leave in other empty sections as comment blocks for potential future edits? Or would that just bloat the articles unnecessarily? Zeyes (talk) 22:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the order you have settled on is good, with former wrestlers listed just after active ones. As for the second question, it might be a bit much to have many empty sections.  I sometimes put extraneous catgegories, etc as a back up in the Talk pages of articles for when I or someone else needs them later (as I do on the active wrestlers page).  Really if we wanted to fill them in it wouldn't be that much work as the sumo guides put out regularly have all the gyoji, tokoyama etc. listed as well. FourTildes 00:36, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Good to have you back, Zeyes! I agree, I think having a "none" section is fine for makuuchi rikishi but perhaps too much for other personnel. I was wondering if it might be worth trying to combine the coaches and ex-wrestler sections, as there may well be a fair agree of duplication with it not being uncommon for coaches to be former members of that particular stable. That's just a quick thought, I haven't looked closely to see how much of an issue it is.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:07, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I took a longer look at your Arashio prototype and I like the reorganization. Owner is preferable to oyakata because it is more accurate and also an English term for the layman. The same goes for gyoji.  I think the best term for juryo and higher is sekitori, but I think it would be best to wikilink it. Regardless, the effort is appreciated.  Let me know if any assistance I can give. FourTildes 12:45, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks for the feedback, guys. As for the duplication issue - I've gone around that by not having any so far. ;) Ex-rikishi of the stable who are listed elsewhere as coaches or (former) owners just aren't included under Notable Former Wrestlers. On the other hand, I'm aware that that makes that section header a bit misleading. Haven't really managed to find a satisfying solution. Different section title? A footnote? Outright combining the coaches with the ex-wrestlers runs into trouble with long-lived stables such as Dewanoumi where there are easily 10+ really famous former guys (all since retired and/or dead) to mention along with the half-dozen not-so-famous guys coaching right now.

Three years ago I was actually planning to have the ex-wrestlers below the current coaches (so you get an order of current rikishi -- former rikishi still there as coaches -- former rikishi not there any longer); maybe that's the ticket after all? Perhaps doing that and changing "Notable former wrestlers" to "Notable former stable members" would work... Hmm, still would imply the need to duplicate notable ex-members who are already listed as ex-owners.

Wikilinking sekitori in the section header is no problem, but I was dissuaded from that three years ago by reference to the MOS. Has that changed? Zeyes (talk) 16:20, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I've thrown together 5 different versions of the prospective Dewanoumi entry at User:Zeyes/sandbox2 - the first three only differ in their placement of the Coaches section in relation to Active/Former, #4 and 5 move the former rikishi down to the bottom. I'm actually thinking #4 is my favourite... Zeyes (talk) 17:07, 6 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Very nice way to present the options, thanks. My preference is Owner, Active, Former (stable member or wrestlers), Coaches, et al. I think anyone who came to look would be interested to see former wrestlers, especially if a heya is past it's prime. I can see the argument for listing first the people in other positions who are actually active, but I still think it would be better to have former wrestlers listed more prominently - I am willing to hear other opinions though. FourTildes 09:50, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I like no.3 best, with the priority given to wrestlers, but those who are actually currently involved with the stable listed first. On the subject of wikilinks in section headings, the MOS does indeed say, "Section headings should not themselves contain links; instead, a  or  template should be placed immediately after the heading." (see WP:LINKSTYLE)--Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:01, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The good news is, we all prefer versions that list the current sekitori right after the owner! Between #1 and #3 I'd also be inclined to pick the latter...that would leave the order as currently interesting rikishi (= sekitori), sort of recently interesting rikishi (= current coaches), older interesting rikishi (= ex-members). I've added a see-also hatnote to the #3 version if you want to take another look - you guys know better what's considered useful or needed on Wikipedia, so if that's the way to go I'll just add it to the generated output, just let me know. (Though excluding it for those stables like Arashio where sekitori is already linked in the prose part of the article, I suppose.) Zeyes (talk) 23:37, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I've now begun to update the heya articles, the first 10 (Arashio to Isenoumi) are done, including a newly created one on Chiganoura. I've ruthlessly trimmed or out-commented information that relates to previous incarnations of some stable names as it really doesn't belong there except in selected cases (Kasugayama may end up being one of those); the Kyokai generally doesn't treat X-beya #1 and X-beya #2 as having a shared history either, so it's IMHO inappropriate to do so on Wikipedia, no matter how good the narrative might be. Some of the removed stuff may be useful for additional articles on defunct stables down the road, especially the old Isegahama-beya. The Izutsu article just gave me a headache in trying to untangle and rewrite this old-stable-new-stable stuff, so that's where I've stopped for today.

On a separate issue: Some 11 of the stable articles retain the capitalization "Soandso Stable" instead of "Soandso stable" at their primary location, with the lower-case standard hosting only redirects. I'm vaguely annoyed by that, but I don't know if my annoyance is sufficient grounds for changing it. In any case it would appear to require admin intervention since the redirecting pages have edit histories (mostly just thanks to bots coming by, but still), and I'm somewhat wary of putting delete-and-move requests on 11 pages at once even if it's covered by speedy criterion G6. Thoughts? Zeyes (talk) 04:58, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's annoyed me for a long time too:) There was a long since departed user who created some heya articles and capitalised the second word, which is quite clearly wrong. As you say, it needs an admin to clear it up because the redirects have edit histories. I think it's about time it was done. We could make a request at Requested moves if we didn't want to go through all 11 articles.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and placed the required notice on the 11 pages. Copy-paste to the rescue. ;) Zeyes (talk) 04:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I really like the new format, Zeyes. I think the "See also" link to sekitori looks good. Thanks for all your hard work on this topic - well worth the three year wait :) On your "ruthless trimming", I do understand your removal of content when it comes to previous incarnations, but I wonder if you meant to remove those two tidbits at Isenoumi stable - the neighbourhood watch patrols and the no foreigners policy - as this was under a previous stablemaster but still the current incarnation. Or maybe Kitakachidoki does allow foreigners now? On the subject of Izutsu's complicated history, I remember a TV interview with the former Tsurugamine when Kirishma won his 1991 yusho, and he said it had been 60 years since there had been a yusho at Izutsu beya -"not since ozeki Toyokuni in 1930." So as far as he was concerned, he was part of the same line. Perhaps a bit misleading to imply a continuous existence, however!--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:46, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's great to have this. If one area of the sumo presence of en.wiki needed work and input it was the heya articles.  Looking good. Thanks for all the work. FourTildes 23:08, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I've removed the neighbourhood patrol thing because IMHO it's not encyclopedic knowledge. It might have looked like something noteworthy at the time it happened, but in the years since then the amount of "public goodwill" events done by sumotori that we hear about on Sumoforum has increased by an order of magnitude (as opposed to what's in the Japanese press, which is even more still), and I don't feel that something that is little more than a transient bit of trivia needs to be given (undue) weight by being included in Wikipedia.
 * The blurb about the stable's no-foreigner policy bit the dust because it wasn't referenced even for the previous shisho's reign, and given that most stables don't actually seem to see much continuity on shisho changes (often even having to move to a new location, as Isenoumi also did) I found it misleading to have this included as seemingly current information. Ex-Kitakachidoki has yet to recruit anybody since taking over a year and a half ago, so nothing can be read into the continuing lack of foreign deshi. I don't feel too strongly about that removal so feel free to revert, but I do think it needs to be made clear that this was a Fujinokawa policy at best, at least on current knowledge.
 * Heya histories involving "spiritual successors" are a real pain indeed. I've observed debates on Japanese fora trying to puzzle out which cases qualify as "re-establishments" depending on how much of a link there is between the old and the new stable, but they weren't terribly successful either - the continuum is just too wide, from e.g. Oshima-beya possibly resurfacing in a couple of years with most of the old hands still active, to Kasugayama-beya having one obvious link (the new shisho) but nobody else because seven years had passed, to the new Musashigawa-beya where there's also one obvious link (Maru) but the old heya entity is still extant itself, just under a different name. Best to go with what appears to be normal Kyokai policy (Kise-beya being the exception that proves the rule here), namely that "a stable" is everything that happens between founding and shutdown regardless of name changes, and everything that only happened to have the same name(s) at a different time is something else entirely, no matter what spiritual links there might be. (Caveat: This approach is almost certainly not applicable to pre-modern era stables, which as far as I can tell were often less permanent entities than today's, especially until 1870 or so when rikishi were still moving between the various "territories" pretty much at will.)
 * I do have the detailed "what's descended from what" information since 1927 from this excellent site and long-term I might try to get some articles going for some of the longer-lived stables from the past, but it's difficult to avoid becoming too OR-ish (something like this probably won't fly on WP). They have it easier on the Japanese Wikipedia because Sumo Magazine used to run heya history articles in the early 2000s so there at least are some concise secondary sources. I've never read the Sharnoff book - is there anything like heya timelines or something about how various stables are connected in there? (Other than obvious ichimon stuff.) Zeyes (talk) 00:23, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough on Isenoumi, I added it because it was an outside reference which the article badly needed then, but I can see it hasn't stood the test of time. Shanoff's book is by far the best sumo book I've ever read in English (not that there's a huge number to choose from, admittedly) but is now twenty years out of date. The section "The Ichimon and Heya" is twelve pages long and gives an ichimon by ichimon guide to all heya in existence in 1992, with obviously more detail given to the more prestigious and established heya, some getting a couple of paragraphs and others only a line or two. It's very good on the connections between each heya but it's all prose; there's no timeline as such and she's sometimes frustratingly vague or incomplete when it comes to dates and incarnations.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:22, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I've decided to limit myself to technical edits to the prose parts of the articles for now, as I'm finding that takes long enough and I'd really like to get the data parts up to speed before the next banzuke is out. So some of the more convoluted histories will stay unamended (at least by me) for now, but I'll try to get to that in a somewhat timely fashion in the end. Speaking of convoluted, if possible I'd like to know what exactly the Sharnoff book says about the Kimura Soshiro period of Kasugano stable / Kasugano-toshiyori; the article insinuates he'd run Kasugano-beya (or a Kasugano-beya) all the way from 1899-1925 (his time with the kabu), but that's almost definitely wrong in multiple ways. Zeyes (talk) 09:40, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Here's the relevant part of the entry for Kasugano:"Kasugano beya is believed to have been originally founded by a mid-eighteenth century sumotori named Kasugano Gunpachi. It was inactive for a number of decades, as there were no successors to it. In the Meiji period, a referee, Kimura Soshiro, became the stablemaster – a practice no longer allowed. Kimura adopted as his son Yokozuna Tochigiyama, who was permitted to leave Dewanoumi-Beya and become the eighth Kasugano Oyakata."

This is typical of most of the entries in the Sharnoff book - enough detail to get a general idea, but somewhat vague on exacts dates and incomplete on successions.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:22, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. That makes it difficult to figure out if the Kimura Soshiro episode was mentioned because it was considered important, or just because it was unusual. The actual timeline as far as I'm able to piece it together is this:
 * Chibagatake becomes Kasugano[6] and creates Kasugano-beya by branchout from Tamagaki while still active
 * Chibagatake dies in July 1899 (some sources say 1900...darn era conversions), his nephew and adopted son Kimura Soshiro leaves Tamagaki to take over the stable as Kasugano[7] while still active as gyoji
 * Soshiro fights in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904/05
 * Soshiro returns from the war with injuries, quits his gyoji duties and becomes involved with emergent Dewanoumi-beya (Kasugano-beya almost definitely dead by this time, probably even by the war episode already)
 * Soshiro adopts Tochigiyama, starts collecting deshi who idolize Tochigiyama and (according to this summary) "starts running Kasugano-beya" with these deshi from 1919.
 * The problem with that is that even the now-defunct official Kasugano homepage claimed existence only from 1925 with Tochigiyama at the helm. And the ja.wiki Kasugano article simply doesn't say anything about pre-1925. Hard to say if this means the 1919 stable was closed again before 1925 and then reopened by Tochigiyama, or if perhaps "Kasugano-beya 1919" was more a concept (a training group of sorts within the huge Dewanoumi-beya of those days) than an actual entity. In any case, the Soshiro-led Kasugano-beya of ~1899 onward seemingly didn't amount to much, and wasn't founded by him (which is what Sharnoff kind of insinuates). Zeyes (talk) 00:36, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Tamakairiki
I'm finally back to finalizing the heya article redos - deciding who qualifies as a notable former rikishi has quickly turned into a more time-consuming task than all the rest... In any case, I stumbled upon Tamakairiki in the process, currently written up solely for his brief MMA career under his real name, which got him a deletion nomination a few months ago that seems to have passed by unnoticed around here. He's notable at 8 M / 24 J basho and reasonably recent, anybody feel like giving his article the basic works? Zeyes (talk) 00:21, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I can give it a go. I have already pasted in his sumo tournament record.  I can add more later, but I am fighting for access to the computer with my son.  It seems the deletion has been put off for now, so I will add more soon. Let me know if you want any assistance on the heya articles. FourTildes 07:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes I missed that deletion discussion. Nice to see that WP:NSUMO, which I wrote, was seemingly crucial to the article's survival :) Also amusing that several of the participants in that discussion couldn't possibly conceive of a way of summarising a rikishi's career stats in a concise, easy to read table - clearly they've never seen any of our tourney tables! --Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:13, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Definite MMA tunnel vision in that deletion discussion. :) Zeyes (talk) 01:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I just added him to the past rikishi list as well. If you ever spot a straggler, please put them on the list. FourTildes (talk) 20:44, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Syllabic n
I got it into my head a while ago that use of n' was deprecated on Wikipedia after seeing a sumo article (I forget which one) that had been moved to the non-apostrophe version by somebody seemingly competent with an edit comment of "not needed" or somesuch. But looking at WP:MOS-JA it appears current policy is to do use n' where appropriate, and that leaves me wondering what to do with articles such as Kōbō Kenichi. Many articles for affected rikishi of old do have the apostrophe already, but for the newer ones it's a mishmash at best, with the majority seemingly without the apostrophe, not sure whether by design or by oversight. (I was surprised to come across Hokuten'yū the other day, a rare counter-example.) So, to ' or not to '? Zeyes (talk) 09:27, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I am in the 'needed' camp on the apostrophe. If MOS-JA says this, we should follow it. I doubt it really helps someone unfamiliar with the language to pronounce it any better than they would have, but for the sake of completeness.. FourTildes 12:30, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

tournament champions
I have been thinking for some time now that "list of sumo tournament champions" is a more apt name than "list of sumo tournament winners" for our two yusho list articles. Many wiki articles for other sports I have seen use the words champion instead of winner. I think champion is an especially apt word for sumo where regardless of what many wrestlers might say, many/most are just hoping for a kachi-koshi, and are certainly winners in many ways if they get the all important kachi-koshi. I realize it could be overkill at this late stage, but really all it takes is an article/talk move and a redirect. It was actually seeing all the categorizing and reference fixing that Kaiketsu has been doing that inspired me to finally post here and see if people are okay with this. FourTildes 20:07, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no strong views either way, but if champion is used more often throughout the encyclopedia then we should probably follow suit.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I know, I'm crazy - I went and changed everything over in one massive session. I could've been happy with redirects and avoiding double redirects, but no, I changed all the links. FourTildes 08:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, we've all had massive tweaking sessions – nothing crazy about that!--Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

pre 1958 tourney tables
Way back when after the tourney table template was made many here argued against the existing template's efficacy for accurately displaying records for pre-1958 wrestlers. I recently discovered that the jawiki versions of our tourney table templates now also have templates for 3 basho a year and 4 basho a year tables (for systems before 1958). I recently ported them over to enwiki which was easy (and to be honest, now that I see how easy it is, it would be quite easy to make a 2 basho a year template from scratch as well). So if we ever felt like giving pre-1958 wrestlers more accurate tables, these could be used, and with little effort.

There's more however: Because no one system pre-1958 prevailed for all that long, most wrestlers with any longevity have careers that spanned between systems. One way to show this is to use more than one template under the Career Record heading, using the 3,4 and 6 basho a year templates to mark changes in the basho system over a wrestlers' career. If that is too cumbersome and we want one table, there have to be *empty* bashos. Before, when we only had the post-1958 template we would simply mark this by leaving a basho parameter empty, thereby rendering an X in the table. Besides the fact that an X was originally supposed to be used only to mark bashos in the year before a wrestler began his career/top division career, it is also never clear to the average person what this X means for these bashos. For a good example of this see Asashio_Tarō_III. However, I realized recently, it is actually quite easy to use very simple markup to designate these unheld bashos another way. The only existing template example is one I did for Toyokuni Fukuma. The unheld bashos are marked *Not held* until later in his career when the 4 basho system came into place. How does this look? Does the repetitious *Not held* look overdone? Is there another word or abbreviation or symbol or color or something that could have the same effect? Or does it look all right like it is? Or is is better to use more than one template under each Career heading to show system changes over a rikish's career?

Sorry I got so long-winded. To put it shortly: We can now do pre-1958 basho years more accurately if we wanted, and how about having unheld bashos read *not held* as per the example? FourTildes (talk) 14:37, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Luverly! Good job FT, I'll start with the overhaul this week. Kaiketsu (talk) 23:48, 27 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, looking forward to it. I will do some work myself.  Tell me if you think we need a two basho a year template, which should be easy to make.  If you noticed the links to the templates for the new 3 and 4 basho a year tables are listed in the main article on this page FourTildes (talk) 03:08, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I decided to make a 2 basho a year template, and gave the wrestler Tamatsubaki Kentaro a table. He was the Mainoumi of the Hitachiyama era, and seemed like a pretty interesting guy. The table looks a little too elongated and I tried tweaking the percentages to get the best look I could.  I thought draw and holds looked better the way I did it than I have seen in previous tables, but that is a personal opinion of course. Take a look when you have time. FourTildes (talk) 21:08, 29 May 2013 (UTC)


 * My modifications have evolved quite quickly and I am on a roll. There are now several tourney templates for a number of year spans.  I have also regularized a way to show draws and holds.  You can check most any wrestler from the early 1900s to see how I have done it.  I think it looks much cleaner this way.  Also, I just got to the first wrestler, Tachiyama who had pre-1909 "championships".  Though it is nice to show pre-1909 wrestlers' achievements, I have never been happy with showing it as a green box - even with an explanatory note - because there was no concept of the best record being a championship until this time.  I have decided to try a compromise which can be seen on Tachiyama's page for his first two "yusho".  I think this is the way to go, but I want to know what people think before I go too far with it, as most of the wrestlers left will (mostly yusho winners) will have to be included in this system. FourTildes (talk) 05:34, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I have decided to add an "Osaka record" template for Osaka wrestlers from before 1927, see Miyagiyama if you like. I am also considering making an alternate "end box" with all the sansho, playoffs removed, as a lot of it is redundant for early sumo and Osaka sumo as well. FourTildes (talk) 08:20, 12 June 2013 (UTC)


 * After trying out Tachiayama and a few Osaka sumo wrestlers, I am not sure if I am happy with the Best Record system as is. A compromise could be showing it as a yusho in green but with a big bold "Unofficial" under it, and  also recorded separately in the infobox (as I have done with Tachiyama).  Let me know what we think. FourTildes (talk) 01:49, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I have decided to move forward with the system of a green box but with Unofficial written in the box with an explanatory note on the bottom and Unofficial championships recorded as such in the infobox. Again, please look at Tachiyama for an example. FourTildes (talk) 05:59, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Seems a good compromise to me. We don′t want to overload with too many colours, I think green for championship and red for retired is enough.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I waited for definite feedback on the blue (or whatever color) for un-championships because I knew what a big change it was. In that interim I also started to see it as overkill, so if people are happy with the *Unofficial*, let's just keep it that way. FourTildes (talk) 20:52, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

unofficial yusho color change?
I have surprised even myself with the reformatting I am doing. There are new tables for different sets of years, a new draw, hold and "not recorded" designation and I have just added 2 different explanatory boxes to account for no playoffs and sansho in earlier records and to explain things like draws and holds. As I wrote above, I tried the green box with Unofficial written below it for pre-1909 basho. I am pretty happy with the look but... I also decided to try tweaking the template to show a different color pre-1909 basho instead of the words Unofficial. It's blue and you can see an example of what it would look like with the wrestler Tachiyama here User:FourTildes/sandbox 1. It would require another version of the explanatory box at the bottom but I could whip that up. What do you say? I'll try not to cry too much if nobody likes this new color idea for older basho. I am not particularly attached to the color blue by the way. I toyed with the idea of yellow but it seemed too, er, cowardly. FourTildes (talk) 03:46, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

years in sumo link
The years in sumo links are great in the template, but four years after the years in sumo articles were begun (and largely continued) by PK3, there are very few new years in sumo articles for "older years". This leaves a lot of red links (the majority really). So I am going to make an alternate "sumo record year" template for years that have a corresponding "year in" article. The others will have either a link to the generic year or more likely no link. However, to do this smoothly, two parallel template will exist while I switch linked years over. People with a lot of active wrestlers in their watchlist will notice, which is why I decided to give you the heads up here. In future, if you make a new wrestler article and you want a certain year to link, you will should use Sumo record year start link, if you don't (for an older year) than use the original template. Cheers. FourTildes (talk) 23:12, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Done. Years that don't have a year in sumo article now have no link (or red link) and ones that do still link to the "years" in articles. I could have left earlier years with a generic link to a year as Csernica had it, but I think that was back in the day when there was more of a propensity to link everything which is frowned up on these days. I don't really think it is of much use anyway to have the links go to generic year articles that have nothing to do with sumo. Repeating: When making new wrestler articles and you want the years in their tables to link to the "year in" articles, use Sumo record year start link. Use the original template Sumo record year start if you don't want the year to link. FourTildes (talk) 12:22, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
 * OK that seems fine. I wasn't sure any change was necessary at first, as I have no aversion to red links, but I agree that we shouldn't link to generic years unless there's a very good reason.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:24, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I remember you didn't mind red links so much, indeed I found them preferable to generic year links. I guess so many red links (or all in older rikishi pages) started to bug me. If you would like a red link for maybe a few of the more recent years that don't yet have "years in sumo" articles (to remind us and others that it would be nice to have one) that is easy enough - just change an individual year template to for example and voila, red link. :) FourTildes (talk) 20:47, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

more makuuchi champions
I gave a one hit makuuchi champion wonder Tokitsuyama an article. Now you have to go back to 1945 to find a wrestler on the makuuchi yusho list who doesn't have an article. I thought I would post this here, because if I didn't likely noone who notice. :) FourTildes (talk) 23:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice one. Interesting that he won 15–0 as a maegashira – they′d never let that happen these days!--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I saw your edit; I noticed I had his age if he were still alive in there, and I was sure I went in and fixed it. Ah well. It also gave me a chance to notice I had his second (failed) yusho run playoff opponent wrong. Tokitsuyama lost to Chiyonoyama, not Yoshibayama. Yama yama yama. :) FourTildes (talk) 23:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Added another, Bishūyama, a 1945 makuuchi champion. I thought it might be overkill, but there were a lot of interesting anecdotes, so he's got an article.  Please peruse it at your leisure. :) FourTildes (talk) 23:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Saganohana is up. Again, many interesting anecdotes; like he defeated 4 yokozuna in one tournament while only getting a 7-8 record, and the number of sumo giants his stable produced under his management. Enjoy. FourTildes (talk) 00:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * And now Dewaminato I is up, the man famous or infamous for pulling off a zensho-yusho from maegashira 17 in the tournament where Futabayama's consecutive win record was broken. A few interesting anecdotes as well.  Now you have to go back to 1933, and an older sumo tournament system, to find a red rikishi link. Something tells me I am done for awhile, but I've said that before. :) FourTildes (talk) 00:38, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

New JSA website
On 1 August 2013 the Sumo Association moved its website to here. Unfortunately that means that all the rikishi profiles in the External Links section of our bios are now broken. Any volunteers to go through and fix them all? :) --Pawnkingthree (talk) 00:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Well don't all talk at once:) I had the idea of trying to update the Goo Sumo template, so at least the articles that use that template (which is by no means all of them) should update automatically. If that works, I'll go through the remaining and do so manually.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, template Goo Sumo is dead
and whole http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/ homepage is dead too :-( Maiō T. (talk) 14:07, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have attempted to update the Goo Sumo template to reflect the JSA's new site. I am no expert in such things but let's see if it works.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:56, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The fix appears to have worked, but unfortunately there are not nearly as many rikishi with the template as I thought, just these, in fact. But better than nothing. I'll make a start on the rest.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:16, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Chiyootori
Now has an article. I say this as it might be missed if I don't mention it somewhere. The rule is 3 makuuchi tournaments for an article, which I sometimes even extend to 3 consecutive, winning tournaments just to decrease the chances of having a wrestler fall largely off the radar again. But, though Otori has had 3 non-consecutive tournaments, the last two have been impressive and the fact that he jumped up to M5 and still pulled off a 9-6. Hopefully a pic will be coming soon. FourTildes (talk) 04:40, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

And now Takanoiwa is up. This will be his third consecutive tournament and he had a convincing 10-5 record in March so... FourTildes (talk) 00:18, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Goo and sumo reference
I was going back through past sumo wrestler articles in an effort to help switch over External links etc. over to the goo sumo template, a very large task in itself, when I also made the discovery that there are still hundreds if not thousands of http://sumodb.sumogames.com (old sumo reference site) dead links hiding in articles as opposed to http://sumodb.sumogames.DE links (the one that currently is running). Even the likes of Asashoryu and Takanohana were littered with them. Some help finding and changing both the goo template and the .com to .de links would be great. Perhaps there is a tool for doing this more quickly? This is of course hoping they don't switch back to .com again at some point in the future, but right now hundreds of links across the sumo pages still go nowhere. FourTildes (talk) 21:15, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I take it back, it looks like Kaiketsu went through and changed a lot of .com to .de However, there are still a lot lurking out there. I simply did a search for http://sumodb.sumogames.com and that's how I found them. FourTildes (talk) 06:38, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, I eradicated them all. We are officially sumogames.com free. FourTildes (talk) 05:44, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Ichinojo
Ichinojō Takashi is up. He is just making too many waves (ripples) in sumo right now not to have an article. Enjoy. Surprisingly we even beat a Mongolian language article to the punch (but of course not a Japanese one). He is apparently quite vocal about how good he thinks he is and high he is aiming, but I left that out. FourTildes (talk) 12:36, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Only three tournaments in his entire career, but I agree he's already made an impact. I'm sure there are sources out there (even if they're Japanese language only right now) if anyone complains.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:21, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

another
Aaand Terunofuji is up. I couldn't really put him off any longer. He has risen through the ranks quite quickly and he also won the second division. Most importantly he's been in the top division for three consecutive winning tournaments, and he did very well in the end of each of those tournaments. Enjoy. edit: whoops I guess he has only had 2 tournaments, but both very impressive. Reading about his success, he was made for an article. FourTildes (talk) 05:45, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

List of stables
So, I got inspired and reworked the List of sumo stables. My original motivation was because a lot of wrestlers who had retired were still in the table. So I thought why not change them to "past and present wrestlers" so it would never be outdated? Then I thought it would be good to add in some other past well-known wrestlers. Then I thought it could have an extra information section, and before you know it, I had changed things a lot. I took out the "head coach" column and put the more well-known or interesting head coaches in the info section. I think it has a more interesting look and read this way, but I will leave it to your judgement. FourTildes (talk) 11:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

heya articles
So I went temporarily insane and went through and tried to systemize the way the heya articles are constructed. This was done to some extent a while back, but there was a lot of inconsistency. I would start to change one thing the way I thought most heya articles had it, and then as I got through I would realize another way of doing it was more prevalent, etc. It seemed an exercise in futility but eventually I ironed out most inconsistencies, even the ones that I created myself while doing it. So PLEASE, if you add information to a heya article or make a new one, follow the other articles closely, using the same headings, and the same way to present the information for heya members past and present. Also, please use diacritics, italics and or wikilinks when using terms like jūryō makushita yobidashi etc. This is wikipedia, not the sumo database, and there are conventions to follow. :) FourTildes (talk) 13:55, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

by the way, there is still info that could be added. For example, some heya don't have the year spans on the different owners of the stables (which by the way should be listed BEFORE their names, and the owners should be listed in descending order from earlier to later ending with the present one (it was both ways and I had to settle on one). Also what jobs toshiyori etc. have in their heya or the kyokai is only listed for some heya articles.  Again, please follow the format of other articles closely if you add such info. FourTildes (talk) 14:00, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

p.s. I also anchored the rankings on the List of yokozuna page so now a yokozuna can be listed as something like Kakuryū, the 71st yokozuna and the link will go to that yokozuna's rank in the list article. FourTildes (talk) 14:04, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Living people on EN wiki who are dead on other wikis
The following individuals who are in the scope of this project are showing to be alive on the English wiki, but deceased on another language wiki:


 * Kanenohana Takeo: ja:没年不明
 * Tatsuhikari Kumagoro: ja:2011年没

Please help to find reliable sources to confirm if these individuals are alive or dead, or correct any mis-categorization on the relevant foreign-language article(s). Please see WP:LIVINGDEAD for more info and raise any issues on the talkpage. Thanks.  Lugnuts  Dick Laurent is dead 09:00, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I checked both out. The second I found a death date and changed the enwiki accordingly. The first one, Kanenohana, has the death date listed as unknown in Japanese. If its unknown in Japanese it will be impossible to find a conclusive date in English. FourTildes (talk) 10:23, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
 * FourTildes could you add a reference for Tatsuhikari? A user has requested one.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:24, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. FourTildes (talk) 19:35, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I really don't think that sikyo.net qualifies as a reliable source, absent other information. Notably, Tatsuhikari's ja.wiki article carries a missing-ref tag to this day. Zeyes (talk) 12:31, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Updating rikishi articles
All except the most popular (read Hakuho) or newest makuuchi wrestlers (read Endō) had fallen behind in their career bios (the wiki text not the infobox). I have been going through and updating them. I realized that there should be an easy way to record that career bio info has been updated. So in the infobox I changed the update tag a bit. It is supposed to reflect the infobox and career bio AND I suppose, the tourney table. So, when you update the tourney box or the infobox, please also take a look at the career section and update it if it looks like it needs it, then change the update date that is in the infobox. FourTildes (talk) 06:45, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal
Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Sadanoumi
Sadanoumi has been in makuuchi 3 tournaments with the last one being a kachikoshi, so he has earned an article; check it out if you have time. ~ ~ ~ ~ (talk) 12:53, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * That link actually goes to the current rikishi's father - I'll make a disambiguation page.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:25, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Amuru
Though he doesn't have the requisite 3 tourneys in makuuchi, he is notable for being the only ethnic Russian currently in pro sumo, and with all this guy has been through with injuries and the comeback he has made, no one deserves an article more than him on the cusp of his promotion to the top division. ~ ~ ~ ~ (talk) 10:18, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!


Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Nishonoseki stable
There is a requested move discussion at Nishonoseki stable. This sort of thing is probably going to come up again as there are other examples of stables being "revived" that have little or no connection to the old one other than the name, and therefore deserve separate articles, but then the question becomes which one is one "primary" over the other, as apparently having a disambiguation page for just two articles is frowned upon.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 02:33, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

First attempts
I am not a sumo expert (horse-racing is my AoE) but I have updated the Terunofuji atricle and would appreciate it if someone here could take a look and make sure I haven't done anything daft.  Tigerboy1966  13:25, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me - thanks for your interest! It's always good to have some help updating the bios after tournaments. I just made a couple of minor MOS tweaks - we normally italicize sumo jargon.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. We don't have as many hands around here as we used to, and your contributions are appreciated. Feel free to take a crack at updates, etc. FourTildes (talk) 20:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the advice. I will try to chip in when things are quiet on the horse racing front.  Tigerboy1966  20:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I have added the win/loss records for the latest basho and also done an update on Terunofuji. Using my horse racing method: facts + quote + ref.  Tigerboy1966  13:37, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. Terunofuji is clearly one to watch. I have updated the ex-makuuchi guys so everyone should be done for this basho.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:08, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

RFC on the Manual of style for Japan-related articles
Please come participate in the discussion on changing Romanization in the Japan-related manual of style. Thanks! ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 17:20, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

New article?
I notice that there are two new wrestlers in the top division (Seirō & Hidenoumi) who do not have articles yet. Does anyone have these under construction. If not, I am happy to have a crack at one or both of them.  Tigerboy1966  12:11, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * started a draft of Hidenoumi Takuya.  Tigerboy1966  12:58, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Posted Hidenoumi Takuya. That's only the second of 1174 articles I have created that wasn't horse racing related, so there are probably lots of problems with it so please take a look.  Tigerboy1966  13:55, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't see any problems at all:) All I did was a couple of very minor style edits and I also added his profile from the official Japan Sumo Association website as an external link, which I think is useful.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:35, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I also posted Seirō Takeshi who would be doing rather well in Nagoya if he didn't keep losing to jūryō wrestlers!  Tigerboy1966  20:26, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Mitakeumi Hisashi
Looks likely to be promoted to the top division in September after winning juryo this time. I have a rudimentary sandbox article started. Does anyone have an image?  Tigerboy1966  18:41, 26 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I do have an image for when the time comes for an article. Sorry, I was off on holiday for a month and didn't notice your question until now. FourTildes (talk) 19:47, 13 September 2015 (UTC)


 * No rush as he is still in juryo this time. I'm still learning and have noticed that winning the second division does not mean automatic promotion.  Tigerboy1966  05:59, 14 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Still a good one to have on the backburner. I'd make a good bet he will be a makuuchi regular before long. FourTildes (talk) 11:51, 14 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed, he has done well again in juryo in Sept (11-3 with a day to go), including a win in a makuuchi try-out.  Tigerboy1966  11:21, 26 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I think it could be created now as his rise to the top division is one of the fastest ever, which seems notable.  Tigerboy1966  20:04, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Masunoyama - references needed
Masunoyama Tomoharu - the stuff about his heatlh problems, shortage of breath etc - has ben removed from the article for WP:BLP reasons. It is one of the more notable things about him so it would be nice if that could be sourced and put back. I have searched in vain for English sources so if someone familiar with Japanese could have a go that would be great.Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:30, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

A few news blurbs that I have found say he finally got his heart fully checked recently and he doesn't have any heart disease... I suppose that could be included. FourTildes (talk) 12:00, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That would be useful. Maybe something about how he needs to keep his matches short due to his shortness of breath as well.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:59, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Kitanoumi Toshimitsu
Is anyone familiar with the process on nominating articles for the "recent deaths" section on the main page?  Tigerboy1966  20:36, 20 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, not familiar. It seems a good idea though. FourTildes (talk) 09:33, 21 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Well, he's up there on the main page now. Nothing to do with me.  Tigerboy1966  13:08, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Shodai Naoya
Could someone please check if the Nov 2015 jūryo winner should be Shodai or Shōdai?  Tigerboy1966  08:35, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Dohyo-iri
It seems a bit odd that we don't have a stand-alone article on the dohyo-iri (it's redirected to the glossary) but we do have tachimochi and tsuyuharai - two articles that are virtually identical. Maybe they could be combined into one article and renamed Dohyoi-iri?--Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:27, 26 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Most definitely. Maybe we could even add a little more info. FourTildes (talk) 07:16, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

List of Ōzeki
I wonder if you think this article could be created along the lines of List of yokozuna. I could certainly have a crack at it, perhaps posting the article with the ones since Nayoroiwa Shizuo and then developing it backwards.  Tigerboy1966  19:15, 3 March 2016 (UTC)


 * I considered a list of that nature myself in the past; somehow it eventually evolved into the career tables we have in the articles now. I am not against it in principle. It would be a long list. You could make it shorter by only putting those that never made yokozuna (not that you have to go that way).  The easiest way to start would be, I think, to take the past wrestler's list and pare it down, and then add in new information. If you don't mind, as it will be quite a list once it's finished, let's see what a few other contributors think over the next few days. FourTildes (talk) 20:56, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the advice. Just to make it clear, I should have said that I wasn't intending to include those who made it to yokozuna. I would explain this in the preamble to the list if and when the article is posted.  Tigerboy1966  22:07, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Would still be a long list, even without the yokozuna. But I'm fine with starting at Nayoroiwa. Down the road we could always split the article up it gets too unwieldy.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:30, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I've got a list going back to Nayoroiwa here User:Tigerboy1966/sandbox12 but I have hit a redlink roadblock with Shionoumi Unemon. According to this site he reached the rank twice between 1947 and 1951 but he does not have an article on WP. Can anyone point me in the right direction?  Tigerboy1966   15:33, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
 * We don't have an article on him! We should though - I didn't realize we have a post-war ozeki missing! The Japanese article is here for reference.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:21, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, I've put up the article List of ōzeki. It only goes back to 1943 at the moment. Please help to improve it.  Tigerboy1966  12:53, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Final scores for March
I have a question. The jūryō wrestlers Ōsunaarashi (13-1) and Seirō (8-6) have been matched against top division opponents on day 15. Obviously a win will count as a win, but would a defeat count as a defeat? I think I read that defeats in a higher division don't count against a wrestler, but wouldn't that leave them with only 14 bouts? Can someone please clarify this?  Tigerboy1966  09:15, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
 * It counts. You may be thinking of when a makushita level wrestler who has already completed his seven bouts fights an extra eighth bout to make up the numbers for juryo, which does happen occasionally. It that case a win would help that wrestler's promotion chances but a defeat wouldn't hurt them. But when it's one of the wrestler's 15 (or 7) regular matches, even if it's against an opponent from a higher division, it's treated exactly the same as normal, win or lose--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:12, 28 March 2016 (UTC).
 * Thanks for clearing that one up.  Tigerboy1966  20:16, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Retired/dismissed wrestlers not listed on banzuke
I have tried to clean up the tourney tables of four dismissed wrestlers (Wakakirin, Wakanoho, Roho and Hakurozan) and one who suddenly became a stablemaster (Tokitsuumi). As I understand it from checking Sumo Reference, Tokitsuumi, Wakakirin, and Wakanoho were NOT listed on the banzuke following their departures, and there was a blank space where there names would have been, but Roho and Hakurozan were. However, in our tourney tables we had the Russian brothers as "DISMISSED" with no ranking listed, and the other three with their ranks still listed. I think it should be the other way around and have changed it accordingly. If anyone disagrees, feel free to revert and we'll have a discussion. (On a related note, we also had Futahaguro listed as "Dismissed" with no ranking but this is definitely incorrect; he was technically not dismissed or expelled but allowed to retire so he could keep his retirement pay and bonuses; and he was on the January 1988 banzuke.)--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:05, 19 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I missed this note previously - but I agree and thank you for cleaning up the tables. FourTildes (talk) 00:55, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Daishomaru article
Hi, Daishomaru is the closest rikishi to reaching the criteria for his own article on enWiki, so I am going to start one for him in my Sandbox (wishful thinking maybe?). So please don't start your own so that no time/effort is needlessly used up for the same article. Thanks. FourTildes (talk) 00:55, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

I jumped the gun, he actually has one more kachikoshi to meet the criteria, but the article is ready, and I may very well be on vacation if/when he meets the criteria, so I put it up early. Thanks. FourTildes (talk) 09:51, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

JSA website changed
The Japan Sumo Association's website has undergone an upgrade. The new url is here. I have updated the template Goo Sumo so the links to the wrestler profiles on the bio pages should hopefully be fixed, but there may well be other broken links around.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:40, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I have fixed all the links to the JSA's Sumo Beya Guide on the individual stable articles. (I also removed the stub tags as I went along as I think all of the mare at least Start class.)--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:32, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Daieishō Hayato
Looks like he meets the criteria for an article now as he is scheduled to contest his sixth tournament in makuuchi. Does anyone have a sandbox article under way? If not I'll get one started.  Tigerboy1966  19:58, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Hadn't checked to see that coming. He just squeaked in at M16 eh? Hopefully he can get his KK and manages to stay in. I don't have an article in my Sandbox - I'd venture that no one else does either. Why don't you give it a day, and if no one chimes in have at it. Thanks for your efforts in general and your conscientiousness. FourTildes (talk) 21:23, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm going to sandbox it. He hasn't exactly set the sumo world alight but he's only 22 so he's likely to be around for a good few years. My big weakness is that I don't know any Japanese (apart from Sumo terms, so I have to rely on Eng Lang sources.  Tigerboy1966  12:25, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Done. Sort of basic start article. And of course google translate is useless on Japanese (as I know from my horse racing articles). The lad did something athletic in high school but I haven't a clue what it was!  Tigerboy1966  15:19, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The linked article says he helped his high school finish second in the team event at the national inter-high tournament. I have added that and other details to the article. His Japanese wiki bio also says he finished 3rd in the individual event at the inter-high, plus the school finished second again at the National Sports Festival of Japan. But being the Japanese wiki, it is of course unsourced so I haven't added it. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 01:59, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * P.S. This article would qualify for an appearance in the Did You Know section of the main page. Would you like me to make the nomination? AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 02:45, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I have nothing against it being nominated for DYK, but most any sumo wrestler's bio contains the same kind of information about their pre-pro life. FourTildes (talk) 04:16, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Personally I think DYK is good because it draws attention to one sumo article, which will then lead to people reading other articles also. I can't remember there being any sumo DYKs before. The fact that every wrestler's early life is similar may not be interesting for people like ourselves who have read every article. But those who know nothing about the sport may find it interesting. A couple of potential facts about Daieisho that could be used include being the 14th former student of his high school coach to reach sekitori. Or there's a quote of him saying he wants to wrestle like Chiyotaikai. Using that is a way to get two names appearing on the front page at once. "Did you know that Daieisho wants to thrust like Chiyotaikai?" That's the kind of line they love there; leaving the reader to wonder what sort of thrusting is being discussed. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 05:49, 31 August 2016 (UTC)


 * All good points. Thanks for elaborating. :)  FourTildes (talk) 11:09, 31 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The only time sumo has got on the front page recently has been in the "recent deaths" section. I more or less gave up on DYK a couple of years ago when I was accused of "gaming" the system: basically another editor (flatteringly) kept nominating my horse racing articles which bypassed the QPQ convention. I'm happy to give it a go and as pointed out above, the more obscure and puzzling (and slightly rude) the hook souds the better. Something like the previous suggestion or maybe "DYK that... Daieisho would rather push and thrust than grip the belt" would be fine. Apologies, I grew up reading Finbarr Saunders.  Tigerboy1966  12:03, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * We've had a couple of DYKs in the past - Itai's match-fixing allegations and Asahikuni commuting to tournaments from hospital - but it's been a while so a new one is always welcome!--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:08, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The nomination is here. Thanks for the links Pawnkingthree, I hadn't seen either of those articles before. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 05:09, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Shimpan
I apologise for the late notification, but a while ago I started a discussion regarding the correct title for shimpan at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan. Participants here may wish to comment over there. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 00:50, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Sumo lists moved from user into article space
An editor recently moved two lists, List of non-Japanese sumo wrestlers and List of sumo elders, from "user space" into the main "article space". The sumo elders list is mine and is nowhere near ready, mainly because it's a long (and frankly tedious) task to list all 105 of them. I was intending to finish it at my own pace but this editor has, I feel, jumped the jun. The foreigners list is, I think, a valid idea but it is a decade old and its creator has not worked on it for a long time. It's already attracting attention now that it's in main space. Is there any enthusiasm for improving one or both of these articles or should they just be moved back to user space?--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:08, 19 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. I made some comments about the non-Japanese article in the Talk there. As for the Elders list, I see this very much as PK3's call. He has had that list percolating in his sandbox for some time, and it is his choice if and when it goes live. FourTildes (talk) 23:26, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I've been working on it and it's pretty much complete now I think - check it out.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:59, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Unusual shikona
Just finished updating the stats/results for September. I noticed that the juryo winner Daiki, seems to be using his given name as his shikona. He's not due for an article just yet but I was wondering how unusual that is. Or maybe I'm just getting confused by Japanese names again.  Tigerboy1966  09:00, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It used to be very unusual for a sekitori – traditionally they start out just using their own name and get a shikona when he get promoted to juryo. There were always one or two exceptions: Wajima and Hasegawa for example. But it seems to be bit of a trend this days for more of them to stick with their own names: I can think of Endo, Takayasu and Shōdai who are all the top division right now and I'm sure there's others.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:11, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The odd thing here though is that Endo, Takayasu et al use their family names but Daiki is pretty clearly the guy's given name: it's like Smith, Jones, Rubinstein and err... Bob.  Tigerboy1966  19:46, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see what you mean. No, I haven't come across that before.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:26, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The explanation is in his Japanese article. Unfortunately web-based translations are so poor that I still can't understand it. The Japanese original is here if someone would like to translate it – 四股名は同名の年寄名跡があるため本名のままとすることはできず、初土俵時より大輝 明道となった. 明道という名前は、自身の父親と埼玉栄高校相撲部監督の名前から1字ずつ取ったものである--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:11, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Based on both that sentence plus the source it links to, he could not use his real surname Nakamura when he entered mae-sumo in March 2015 because it was being used as a toshiyori name by Kotonishiki. So he used his given name Daiki. His adopted given name Akimichi is made up of one character from his father's name (明, probably read as Akira) and one from his high school coach's name (山田道紀, Michinori Yamada). AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 00:54, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for explaining this.  Tigerboy1966  05:28, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Most rikishi who have a family name already used, just add a Yama or the like onto the shikona, i.e. Nakamurayama. Daiki took another approach. I wouldn't be surprised if he sticks with it for some time, as PK3 mentioned that is a recent trend, keeping one's actual name; and a name like Daiki sticks out quite a bit. FourTildes (talk) 20:45, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * And after sorting all that out, it's now been announced he will henceforth be known as Hokutofuji - a combination of Hokutoumi and Kitanofuji.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:24, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I just noticed that someone created the article back on November 11 - we all seem to have missed that one. Could do with some work - it's a very brief stub.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:43, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I did notice it, but it broke our rule and it was a stub so I chose to ignore it until Hokutofuji actually earned his article. Probably the laziest approach I guess. :) FourTildes (talk) 20:10, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes he has only three basho as a sekitori so far, so it is too early really. I might add a tourney table, but unfortunately there's no image available yet.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:35, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll put a table in.  Tigerboy1966  21:02, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Table added. I also put in the "see also", "categories" and a talkpage. I don't think we should worry about this wrestler disappearing from view any time soon: he looks like a very solid maegahira with sanyaku potential. Any more popped up? This is what happen when a sport gets popular!  Tigerboy1966  21:33, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have added the Fighting Style section, and some brief career details. I haven't noticed any others pop up yet. We should keep an eye out for Chiyoo and Sato, as they will be making their makuuchi debuts in January. If those red links turn blue, we will know someone has jumped in! --Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:52, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Nishikigi Tetsuya article
You guys have probably spotted this already but Nishikigi has two winning records in makuuchi so he should get an article if he gets to 8 wins at M6 in November. Images at the ready?  Tigerboy1966  20:01, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes there is an image available here.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:20, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Fell well short with a 4-11 in November, so he will have to wait I guess.... he will be back towards the bottom of makuuchi in January.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, but down at M13 or M14 he should be able to get the KK next time around. And Chiyoshoma Fujio should be up for an article soon after two winning records in his first two basho in makuuchi.  Tigerboy1966  22:11, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Ishiura Masakatsu
..is now up, created by new WP:SUMO participant User:Popapop2 (welcome!). I think he comes under the exception to the "three kachi-koshi in makuuchi" creation rule, because of the publicity his ten bout winning streak in his debut has created.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:40, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * also because he got the special prize, so fair enough.  Tigerboy1966  22:06, 29 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The primary reason for the rule is because articles are often started by enthusiastic newcomers to sumo fandom who often disappear afterward and leave us to update the articles they create even though these rikishi often drop to juryo or even lower and into obscurity. However, we do have TigerBoy and a few others, who have been consistently participating and have stuck around a while.  I don't mind loosening the rules a bit if we have a number of consistent contributors. :)  Can I ask, TigerBoy, if Popapop2 added him/herself to the WP:Sumo list or did you?  I am hoping he/she sticks around. FourTildes (talk) 02:33, 30 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I added myself! I hope to stay around! Popapop2 (talk) 6:54, 30 November (UTC)

One reason I say this is I'd like to bagsy Chiyonoshoma's article if I may? FourTildes (talk) 03:20, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello all! Thanks for the welcome! I added myself to the WP:Sumo list! I hope to help where I can. I miss over the "three kachi-koshi in makuuchi" creation rule before I created his article. But I figured that he gained a lot of popularity and his ten straight wins. Plus the fighting spirit prize. Popapop2 (talk) 6:54, 30 November (UTC)


 * Regarding FourTildes' comment above. It is a very good idea to post here if you have started working on an article, as it stops duplication. It can be a bit frustrating to spend hours working on a sandbox article and then find that someone else has posted an article on the same topic.  Tigerboy1966  08:56, 30 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I see, I will definitely do that in the future. I'm a bit new to editing wikipedia, so I don't know all the ins and outs of it all, and new of course new to the WP. Popapop2 (talk) 15:40, 30 November (UTC)

New rikishi article criteria
Ok, after discussing it a bit we think: with the number of active contributors currently, it is time for a rikishi article criteria update. I've already changed it on the this project's main page. Now a rikishi needs only FIVE makuuchi tournaments or TWO kachikoshi tournaments for an article. A notable exception can be made without asking for consensus for juryo yusho winners. Any other arguments for notability please kindly ask for consensus on this talk page - though I think a streak of 10 makuuchi wins in a debut for Ishiura would have passed muster, especially as the article is well done. :)

With this change, several rikishi are eligible, off the top of my head: Nishikigi, Chiyonoshoma, Hokutofuji (yes started by someone as a stub), and Sato.

So, of you are interested in making an article for a specific rikishi please state so here now, and in the future, to avoid any work being wasted. It would definitely be preferable if the articles had a pic for a rikishi - I likely have some I took recently on my hard drive (not positive though). I will look soon when I find time.

Again, I don't think we should get too carried away - current active contributors as far as I know are: FourTildes, PK3, TigerBoy, less active but long term Kaiketsu, and Popapop2. Still not that many. When sumo on wiki was really picking up around 2006-2007, we made many articles and conventions and gave ourselves a lot of work to do - and not after terribly long it melted down to me and PK3, so let's try to keep it manageable as we move forward. FourTildes (talk) 23:09, 30 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I looked at my pics and found an image of Chiyoshoma. I uploaded his pic and put it in his Japanese article. I had nothing I could find for Sato or Daiki/Hokutofuji.  This proves I have been very lazy about taking pictures of late. I'll be sure to get those two next chance I get. FourTildes (talk) 13:40, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Tigerboy1966 and I have expanded on Hokutofuji. I know he mentioned Nishikigi, and you wanted to do Chiyoshoma (great you have an image!), so I will hold off on doing any more for now.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:48, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you :) Yes, I am going to claim Chiyoshoma and start working on an article in my sandbox. As I said, I will try to get some pics in January. FourTildes (talk) 00:15, 2 December 2016 (UTC)