Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sumo/Archive 4 January - December 2017

In Taiwan
Hey people. I'm currently in Taiwan and enjoying it thoroughly. I like updating the banzuke on wiki so much that I hoped to do it this morning at my hostel but more and more places don't have PCs since the age of smart phones. I will try at my next guest house tonight. Someone else can do it but if you don't mind waiting a day or two I'm happy to do it. FourTildes (talk) 02:02, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I think I covered everything up to now on my steam-driven Lancashire-built difference engine laptop.  Tigerboy1966  21:00, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that. Appreciated! FourTildes (talk) 03:14, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Kisenosato "In The News"
The Kisenosato article is a candidate to be linked on the main page in the "In The News" section but it needs more references – please help out if you can.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:19, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It's there now: special prize (wiki-shō) to Pawnkingthree for adding the references that ensured its place. I think the last two sumo articles to make the front page were the deaths of Kitanoumi and Chiyonofuji so its good to get a positive story up there.  Tigerboy1966  19:12, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Why thank you:-) Interesting to note that yokozuna promotions are regarded as automatically worthy of inclusion according to In the news/Recurring items - I wasn't aware of that.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

I just saw this, thanks for putting in the work. Looks good! FourTildes (talk) 12:05, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Kagayaki Taishi
Does anyone have this one in their sandbox? If not I'll get it done over the next few days. The big lad in the gold belt fulfills the criteria, and looks capable of being a makuuchi regular for a few years especially as he seems to have added a bit of variety to his flat-out power-shoving technique.  Tigerboy1966  21:26, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with you taking this one. Pawnkingthree (talk) 02:21, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Article posted. I couldn't work out all the Japanese wiki article. There seems to be a suggestion that he his related to Wajima Hiroshi but I can't be sure about that.  Tigerboy1966  20:14, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * He is a distant relative apparently. When he changed his shikona he also changed his given name to the same kanji as Wajima's given name, although it is read as Taishi rather than Hiroshi.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:30, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking about making one myself, he has certainly earned it even beyond the criteria. Shouldn't have let you beat me to him. Heh. His shikona also inspires me, it means something like to shine or sparkle, be glorious, and it's just one character which is rare. I'll check out your article. FourTildes (talk) 22:07, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The article about the train gives the meaning as glitter or luster, but it's written differently so I wasn't sure if it transferred to the wrestler. Looking at it again I think it's just that the train name is written in one of the phonetic scripts rather than kanji.  Tigerboy1966  09:27, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, writing something in hiragana especially is often done to give a name a simpler, more approachable feel. FourTildes (talk) 12:49, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Nishikigi
Got inspired, I am working on Nishikigi. FourTildes (talk) 08:32, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I added my patented Fighting Style section ;-) --Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:38, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Right. Thanks for that. I should give it a shot once. In exchange maybe I could con someone into doing the referencing work next time - I think I'd rather be in a prolonged edit war than do the referencing work. Heh. FourTildes (talk) 23:15, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * We could do with someone working on references - I realized when helping to get Kisenosato and Tokitenku ready for the front page that many of our sumo bios are lacking them.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:15, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Takakeisho
Now I'm moving on to Takakeisho, qualifies because of his juryo championship exception. FourTildes (talk) 02:19, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Tokitenku
I have nominated Tokitenkū as a recent death candidate at the In The News nominations page. There may be calls for the referencing of the article to be further improved. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 02:20, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I will add some references tomorrow. Pawnkingthree (talk) 02:30, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Well you see to have done most of the work :-) There are two "citation needed" tags though - for the claim that he was the first since Takanonami to have six straight make-koshi in a year, and first since 1988 to jump from maegashira 8 to komusubi. I've searched but I can find no English language refs for those. Perhaps Japanese ones exist?--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:31, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I was searching for Japanese sources yesterday but came up blank too. That he had six straight makekoshi and jumped from maegashira 8 to komusubi are simple facts that are easy to ascertain by looking at his record. The problem is the comparison to other wrestlers. I assume it has been copied from the Japanese wiki article at some stage. It may have been added there by someone who heard it mentioned on the television or discovered it from their own research. If we can't source it, then I think it should be removed. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 00:33, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I was doing some research myself on Sumo Reference and discovered through a query that the "maegashira 8 to komusubi" trivia is in fact a 10-5 at maegashira 8 to komusubi! Other rikishi have achieved such a leap since 1988 with better scores. I'm not sure if a Sumo Reference query would past muster as a reference and even if it did, it's hardly worth including. I'm fine with the removal and good to see Tokitenku on the front page. Thanks for making the nomination.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:16, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Article alerts
I have created an article alert subscription for the sumo project. If you add WikiProject Sumo/Article alerts to your watchlist, you can see notifications of any articles being nominated for deletion, GA, etc. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 05:57, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I have done so. Thank you for this.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:56, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I have also. Much appreciated Athomeinkobe. FourTildes (talk) 02:53, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Added.  Tigerboy1966  08:50, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Better late than never. Added. FourTildes (talk) 20:29, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Nakagawa stable
This newly formed stable (as of Jan 26th) already has an entry on the JSA site here but I wanted to ask opinions before creating a new article. It is basically a reincarnation of recently dissolved Kasugayama stable with a new head coach (the reasons behind it are a bit complicated but basically the previous head was kicked out for not being eligible to run a stable.) Should we re-name the existing article or treat it as a separate entity and start a new one?--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:20, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I am losing touch, hadn't heard about this. I am in a bit of a downturn in sumo interest recently (though I still love working on wikipedia). The way they handled it on the Jawiki is of course amending the old Nakagawa article with a pretense at some kind of continuity. My thinking is: many wrestlers retired - it's got a new head - the location has changed (I used the address someone added to jawiki yesterday, I even made sure it wasn't just lazy location editing from the old Nakagawa stable). So, it seems prudent that it be a new article, Nakagawa stable (2017), with a prominent link to its Kasugayama incarnation. FourTildes (talk) 23:42, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

It just occurred to me that part of your thinking might be there isn't a lot to write about beyond the bare figures if we leave all the Kasugayama history and happenings, references etc. to the old article. I guess the same purpose could be served using the same article with a new name. If that was your thinking I am not opposed to an article name change instead. Addendum: It appears it is in the Tokitsukaze ichimon FourTildes (talk) 23:46, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * My view is that it should be a new article. It's not like the Kise situation, where the same wrestlers and head coach went back. It's a new name, new head, a lot of the old wrestlers retired. Enough for a separate article.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:20, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

That was my first instinct. Another smaller argument for simply changing the name is less chance of a run in with the notability patrol - as it seems a lot of content would get left to Kasugayama stable and leave too little to put in the article. However, I am certainly not against a new Nakagawa article in principle. Either way, if someone is ready to start an article or change the current one so all heya are represented, go ahead. FourTildes (talk) 02:30, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
 * There is a separate article, distinct from Kasugayama stable on the Japanese Wikpedia here. That seems to be the way to go.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:45, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Amuuru Mitsuhiro
Wasn't sure if it would be missed if I asked on the article talk page - shouldn't that one be at Amūru Mitsuhiro? Zeyes (talk) 00:34, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

The diacritic is usually done when it is within one kanji. When it is an elongated vowel due to two consecutive kanji it is usually not used. Hidenoumi and Tokitsuumi are other examples. FourTildes (talk) 05:01, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
 * But that's not the case... 阿 = A, 夢 = mū, 露 = ru. The long vowel on the second kanji is a non-standard reading. (As is "ru" rather than "ro" for 露, really.) The ja.wiki article on him alludes to that, saying in a footnote that his shikona is often mistaken to be 'Amuro' アムロ. The kanji are also meant to reproduce the kana reading for the Amur River, which is アムール, not アムウル. Zeyes (talk) 09:36, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Sounds convincing to me. I knew the origin of his name, but not the information about a non-standard reading. Feel free to fix this. FourTildes (talk) 12:28, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Moved.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:23, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Kitanonada the Worthy
I know most of the focus here on sumo wiki of late is the current sport, but there are a few past rikishi that deserve article that have still been overlooked. Kitanonada is a great example. A very solid makuuchi career and he is way up on the all time kinboshi list. Anyone care to take a crack? Kitanonada stats
 * I put him in the "Articles Needed" section a while back. Ten kinboshi is definitely worthy. I'll give it a go.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:24, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I have made a start here. I have also managed to track down an obituary from Sumo World magazine which I'll use as a reference.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:59, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Excellent! Just checked it out and made a few changes (career format mostly). Thanks for that; it is now quite clear how in need of an article he was. It seems to me that if anyone is in a top 10 or so list of achievements deserves this recognition. And here is another one; Ohikari Any takers? :) FourTildes (talk) 22:51, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for converting the tourney table into pre-modern and modern versions. I just copied over from the Japanese article to save time but it looks much better in your format. --Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:50, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

I think you were pretty busy a while back, but I redid tourney table formats to better reflect changes in them over time and then went through and changed every past rikishi's tables appropriately; it took ages but I enjoyed it. I even gave tables to some rikishi who were never given them on jawiki. FourTildes (talk) 23:32, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I have created a couple more articles on past wrestlers, Kotonishiki Noboru (still a stub) and Wakanoyama.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

RFC on sports notability
An RFC has recently been started regarding a potential change to the notability guidelines for sportspeople. Please join in the conversation. Thank you. Primefac (talk) 23:09, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Takayasu family name
This article states that Takayasu is "the fourth ozeki since the Showa era (1926-1989) to use his real family name as his wrestling name". I can find Dejima Takeharu and Kōji Kitao (who didn't become Futahaguro until he was promoted to yokozuna). Anyone know the other one?  Tigerboy1966  07:55, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * That would be Wajima Hiroshi.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:20, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for spotting that.  Tigerboy1966  20:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

the new Naruto-beya
Just wondering if there are any opinions/preferences on how to handle the article for ex-Kotooshu's new Naruto-beya, because the current situation seems a bit awkward.

A) Put it at Naruto stable which currently redirects to Tagonoura stable (2013) and just leave a hatnote pointing to the older heya's article, or

B) keep the new article at Naruto stable (2017), change the Naruto stable redirect to point to that and do the hatnote thing, or

C) keep the new article at Naruto stable (2017), and turn Naruto stable into a dab page for both incarnations?

It's a bit of a different situation from most heya name re-uses since one of the stables in question no longer has its article at that name at all, but it's arguably still very well known under that name anyway (having used it for 25 years), so I'm not sure if the current stable has / will have enough primacy to deserve the plain name (option A), but on the other hand it's a bit strange that Naruto stable doesn't lead to the current incarnation at all. Zeyes (talk) 12:51, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * We had an issue when the Matsugane stable changed its name to Nishonoseki and there was a debate over whether the active stable or the historically prestigious but defunct one was the primary topic. The decision was made that the historical one was the primary, and that's what we've gone for since then for consistency's sake, with the "new" Isegahama stable (2007), Musashigawa stable (2013), Nishonoseki stable (2014), Asahiyama stable (2016) and Naruto stable (2017) having their founding or switch-over dates in the title and the older heya articles with the plain names. You'll notice that Musashigawa stable redirects to Fujishima stable (2010) in a similar way to Tagonoura stable (2013). Apparently per WP:TWODABS you're not supposed to have a dab page where there are only two articles and one can be identified as a primary one. But looking at your suggestions I think option B is the best. Currently we have both Naruto stable and Tagonoura stable redirecting to Tagonoura stable (2013), which doesn't seem right. It's definitely a problem that someone looking for Kotooshu's stable could be lead to an article (ie Tagonoura 2013) that doesn't mention it at all! I say let's redirect Naruto stable to Kotooshu's stable and leave a hatnote for anyone who was looking for Takanosato's heya. That would avoid the need for a page move which might led to a revert like what happened in the Nishonoseki case. --Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:57, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I didn't even realize the new stable has an article already until my suggestion/guess about its probable location didn't turn up as a redlink... (Hence the edit mess I left on here earlier.) What tripped me additionally is that the "current Naruto incarnation" link on the project page points to Tagonoura, which made me think there's no new article to link to yet. :) Anyway, I tend to agree with you about B being the probably best option. I do suspect though that we're going to be violating at least one Wiki guideline by having a solitary Naruto stable (xxxx) disambiguated page... Would it make sense to create Naruto stable (1989) as a redirect to Tagonoura (2013) or would that be silly because nobody's actually going to be searching for it by that name? Zeyes (talk) 18:40, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Just to add, the Naruto 1989 addition might also help with the handful of articles (such as Takanowaka) which currently link just to Naruto stable and assume that to be a redirect to Tagonoura. Obviously those could just be done as a piped Naruto stable link, but that veers a bit into WP:ASTONISH territory for me. Zeyes (talk) 18:45, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Naruto stable (1989) might not be searched very often but it's not totally implausible so I don't see the harm in creating it. Whether we do that or pipe the links in those handful of articles it would be a similar amount of work and wouldn't take too long. Incidentally I'm not totally convinced that using the year of founding is the best way to disambiguate but I can't think of a better alternative. Naruto stable (Kotooshu) and Naruto stable (Takanosato)? Perhaps best not go there...--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:32, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The "sumo way" of disambiguating stable names would probably be by kabu generation, making the old stable "Naruto stable (13th-14th generation)" and the new one "Naruto stable (15th generation)". I'm somewhat unconvinced that that would fly on Wikipedia though. :) As that little detour might indicate, I also don't really have any more practical ideas than doing it by years. The shikona option looks nice at first glance, but I feel it's liable to misinform a bit because stables aren't really talked about in terms of their shisho's old ring name, so it smacks of being an OR-ish classification style. Zeyes (talk) 02:17, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I definitely think Naruto stable should no longer link to former Naruto Tagonoura, there are lots of new people interested who would be confused by this, and Kotooshu Naruto oyakata is on social media getting the word out about his heya. I think that should definitely be changed. FourTildes (talk) 00:30, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
 * As there have been no objections I've gone ahead and made the change. I've also created the Naruto stable (1989) redirect.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:13, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Onosho
Has anyone started a sandbox article for Ōnoshō yet. If not I can get one up and posted this week. I know he is only in his second makuuchi tournament, but he has a special prize already and looks likely to be around for a long time. I dont much care for his attitude btw but if I was that good and 21 years old I might be a bit cocky.  Tigerboy1966  14:50, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

My sandbox article here User:Tigerboy1966/sandbox10.  Tigerboy1966  16:35, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
 * He's doing well in his second tournament and he's clearly notable. I haven't been working on him myself, so I have no objections.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:19, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Highlight jun-yusho in the "basho" template
I was thinking that it might be useful to also highlight jun-yusho in the basho templates on sumo wrestlers' pages. Currently we only highlight yusho as green boxes with a thick border. A couple of reasons I can think of for listing them:


 * They are considered significant for yokozuna promotion, e.g. why Kisenosato was promoted while having only one yusho.
 * They are listed on Sumo DB.
 * Jun-yusho is a massive achievement and helps easily visualize a wrestler's strength when browsing their basho record.

We could then display the basho with a yellow background color for example. Of course, it seems we are currently not passing this information into the template, so this would require going all the way back into the record to manually add the parameter for every rikishi... so I can understand if it's not an undertaking anyone is eager to start. Dada78641 (talk) 14:49, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
 * In principle I don't object to the idea. I agree with you that it will give a better idea of a wrestler's strength - Kisenosato's table would certainly look very different. But I'm a) not good at the technical stuff that would be required to change the template - and b) unwilling to commit to the workload until I have more of an idea as to how many articles would be involved. It would certainly be more than the yusho winners, because a tournament can have two or three joint-runners up. And we already display yusho-doten with the "P" symbol - would we have to scrap that and introduce two different colours to distinguish between yusho-doten and jun-yusho?--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:32, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * By and large, what PK3 said. It is a big step. I am not entirely sure of its usefulness to the average sumo enthusiast who comes to wikipedia; as interesting as it might be to us. Even now, if you know enough about sumo you can spot likely jun-yusho in the lead up to a rikishi's promotion to yokozuna for example. And there is the workload. It would take quite a long time. I have done a lot of grunt work for the sumo articles (usually the career tables) over the years after we reached a consensus (most often in cases where I came up with the idea, so I can't complain) and I feel I can speak from experience just what an undertaking it would be. I do appreciate people are still coming along with ideas, and I hope to see more of Dada's contributions to the sumo info on wiki. FourTildes (talk) 22:06, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
 * FWIW, 71 rikishi have scored a makuuchi jun-yusho since 1989. In addition, I would guess that nearly every article of a pre-1989 rikishi would be affected as anyone from back then who has actually been written up for an article was probably good enough to have a jun-yusho on their record. So at a guess...120 to 150 articles to check/change the tournament tables? Quite a workload indeed. Adjusting the template would probably significantly less of an issue. Speaking of which, I see there's a mysterious "UNYUSHO" parameter in the template which creates a large blue border for the basho results cell - is that used anywhere, and if not, what was it meant to be for? Is it a typo for "JUNYUSHO"? If so, the template already supports this change and only the table footer would have to be adjusted. Zeyes (talk) 02:21, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * After some further investigation, that (j)unyusho template code is probably unusable in its current form as it's written in the style ordinarily reserved for kyujo/suspended etc. tournaments, i.e. not really meant to apply to basho with results. However, the code that creates the green cells should be easily adapted to give some other colour for jun-yusho results; the only change that would need to be made in tournament tables is to put a "j" (or whatever) parameter in the same places that currently take the "y" parameters to create the green cells for yusho. So, the total effort required would be to compare a boatload of post-1909 rikishi articles to Sumo Reference and adjust for jun-yusho performances.
 * PS: Independent of what's going to come out of this jun-yusho discussion, I've extended Template:Sumo rank to make sandanme tsukedashi designations possible while I was looking at it anyway, since these will be necessary soon enough. Zeyes (talk) 03:06, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * It might be possible to automate this to some degree. Maybe even automate the edits. I'm not sure though. Wikipedia is notoriously difficult to edit programmatically. Here's a complete list of jun-yusho. We would go through them programmatically one by one, take the date (1909.06 for the first one), take the article source (Hitachiyama Taniemon) and, in this case, search for the second "basho" template, and add  to it. The two difficult issues are 1) finding the correct article for each rikishi, since Wikipedia uses macron vowels in the names and Sumo DB doesn't, and 2) accounting for the changes in how many basho there are per year. I might do some work on this when I have spare time, just to see if this is a feasible approach at all... Dada78641 (talk) 10:39, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I tried out the UNYUSHO parameter mentioned by Zeyes in my sandbox here. It's definitely not been used anywhere before. It's cumbersome to fill out for the reasons Zeye cites - it follows the "intai" formula and therefore I couldn't work out how to include the sansho in Kisenosato's first jun-yusho- but I just wanted to see how it looked. Using a "j" as we use the "y" now would be the way to go.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:26, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I ended up experimenting with a sandbox version of the Basho template yesterday to recreate the way the yusho=Y parameter is handled, and I've successfully extended it to accept J, so it should cooperate just as well with sansho etc. markup. Results preview here. One thing I was wondering a bit even just from that three-year example: Could that end up looking a bit "busy" for the big guns who have lots and lots of both yusho and jun-yusho?
 * FWIW, the P for playoffs listing style wouldn't be affected, IMHO. It would just work out as:
 * green box = outright yusho
 * green box + P-denoted record = yusho after playoff win
 * blue box + P-denoted record = jun-yusho after playoff loss (= yusho-doten)
 * blue box = regular jun-yusho
 * So I don't think anything beyond adding J parameters would need to be changed. Zeyes (talk) 23:29, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Looking at the sandbox version I'd just like to point out that the blue jumps off the screen rather more than the green: we don't want to make the runners-up more prominent than the winners do we?  Tigerboy1966  07:59, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree. We should change to a less prominent colour. Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:33, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

(outdent) Yeah, that's probably what contributed to my impression that it looks too busy, too. Yellow was suggested at the very start, but I think that would be even more extreme. Alternative proposal with a light brown background and various darker shades for the box (for ease, all taken from the named colours list - Wheat for the background, Tan/Peru/Sienna for the box): image. My preference would be for the middle version among those; enough of a colour difference between background and box, but also far enough from the intai-red (the Sienna brown frame in v3 veers close to that). That was just what first came to mind though, maybe there are superior choices. With red, green and gray taken, and blue and yellow too strong, I struggled a bit to come up with something. Zeyes (talk) 15:59, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * No opinions either way...? BTW, I'm volunteering to do the revising of the tournament tables if that's the hold-up. Need to hash out first if it's seen as a worthwhile change/addition to begin with, of course. Zeyes (talk) 06:46, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
 * My preference is actually for the first one. My problem with the other two is that the frame is too dark and therefore too similar to the yusho box. For me the first one is better because the jun-yusho fade more into the background, and the yusho, being more important, rightly stand out more. Pinging Kaiketsu to see if he has an opinion.  And thank you for volunteering! Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:26, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair point. As there doesn't seem to be any opposition to adding jun-yusho displays in principle, I'll go ahead and start doing that, and use the lightest colours for now. Those are easily changed if the consensus ends up favouring different colour tones in the end.
 * I'll drop a progress counter into the "articles that need attention" section of the project page. If anyone wants to claim parts of the workload, feel free to do that there. Zeyes (talk) 08:06, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

And done. Many thanks for the assistance, PK3. :) Zeyes (talk) 15:40, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Let's keep that progress counter there - it's useful to know which of those rikishi still need articles (Ōnosato is certainly a glaring omission).--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:50, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * As it happens, I've worked up a little something bigger for the needed articles section in between the jun-yusho grindwork. ;) Zeyes (talk) 16:10, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * That's great! Thanks.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:15, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Your comment about the jun-yusho guys prompted me to add a couple more...all 8 rikishi with multiple JY are now listed in the table. 6 of them are arguably notable for other stuff as well and were already on there. Zeyes (talk) 16:29, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Just for reference, if I didn't make any mistakes along the way, that list is exhaustive for rikishi with a 5+ silverware count, or 50+ makuuchi basho, or 40+ basho and active mainly before 1958. There are probably further noteworthy rikishi beyond these, especially among guys who ran stables afterwards (Tamanoumi Umekichi comes to mind), but tackling the kabu archives was a step too far at the moment. The current 30 should provide plenty of fodder for anyone interested in article creation anyway. Zeyes (talk) 16:33, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

(outdent) Well it looks like this idea went forward. I'm not sure I like it, but there it is. My biggest issue with it is appearance. Could someone go in and maybe take the border off the jun yusho? I don't like the way it clashes with the yusho border, and often supercedes it - which is especially noticeable on successful rikishi such as Hakuho. I have no idea how easy this would be, and maybe it wouldn't look better, but it might. FourTildes (talk) 10:34, 18 August 2017 (UTC)


 * So I went in and tried it out myself, and I definitely prefer this way, with no border on the junyusho - it doesn't clash or supercede the borders of the more prominent and important yusho. I thought that would be the easiest way for everyone to see it - by leaving it that way for now. If the consensus is that we don't like it, we can go back in and revert to borders. I will also go in and take the borders off the junyusho in the legend at the bottom. FourTildes (talk) 11:03, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * That looks much better. Earlier on in the discussion I mentioned that I wanted the jun-yusho to "fade into the background" more and your change addresses my concerns.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:37, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I had toyed with that approach as well, but I didn't really like it that much, largely because it can make things look very ambiguous, e.g. Hakuho in Haru 2014 where he's now got an entry that has the jun-yusho colour but is entirely surrounded by green borders like a yusho. The overlapping borders looked like a (minimally) better choice to me at the time. There's actually a very elegant solution out there that would move all borders inwards so they don't overlap each other anymore (by using a style property called "outline"), but unfortunately that one is not properly supported by Microsoft's rendering engine and would totally wreck the design on IE, Edge etc. In the absence of that option, I'm okay with no jun-yusho borders. :) (Of course, another possibility would be to scrap the borders on everything, not just jun-yusho...) Zeyes (talk) 18:26, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the border looks more official. It is used for retirement and yusho only I think? Nothing official about a junyusho. Having said that inward border is something I'd at least be willing to look at if it is ever doable. To be honest if we were going to record junyusho I'd've been happy with having Runner up written in bold below in the box as other lower level achievements are recorded - but the current brown is a compromise. FourTildes (talk) 02:28, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * That would clash with the sansho and kinboshi markers though, not to mention that those free text additions aren't well-supported by the template in the first place. Extending the hackish (mis)use of the template code that gets those text bits displayed would have only made the tournament tables even more messy to create than they already are. (I shudder at the fact that the playoff markers are using the yasumi fields...) The whole template arguably needs a cleanup/rewrite because it's been extended in several ways that it certainly wasn't meant to support originally, but there's no way I'm touching that because the various hacks have been used in so many tables by now that it would take weeks to fix those up. Adding that second background colour was basically trivial by comparison. Zeyes (talk) 03:43, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

(outdent) Right. The text option wouldn't work for makuuchi. I shuddered at first at all that brown (or whatever random color) over all the tables I've laboured over, but I noticed I'm getting used to it, and it is indeed easier to visualize how things went down in a tournament.FourTildes (talk) 04:21, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Discussion at NSPORTS
Hello all. In an effort to finally resolve the never-ending and annoying GNG v SSG issue, I've proposed a revision of the NSPORTS introduction. You are all invited to take part in the discussion. Thank you. Jack &#124; talk page 06:20, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Asanoyama
Does anyone have this one in sandbox? He looks v. likely to pick a special prize and a possible jun-yusho. He might even win the thing.  Tigerboy1966  11:47, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Jun-yusho in his debut would certainly make him notable enough for an article in my view. He's certainly doing a lot better than the other sandanme tsukedeshi, Yutakayama, who doesn't look like he can cut it in makuuchi.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:51, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Onosho image
Can we look out for a better usable image for the Onosho article. Most of the other articles have a picture of the wrestler at a basho, but Onosho (soon to be komusubi) is looking a bit scruffy in a training session.  Tigerboy1966  06:47, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Not really a question of "looking out" for one, more asking for one – 99% of our active wrestler images are provided by User:FourTildes. Maybe he can get a snap of Onosho next time he's at a tournament.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:04, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

I am sure I have a newer Ono pic in his dandy red mawashi. I also snapped that training session pic. I might be able to get something up pretty quick, since you asked. :) FourTildes (talk) 23:44, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Addendum: I took lots of pics at last basho of dohyo iri etc. but was not vigilant about getting individual rikishi pics. I may have something on my hard drive at home. FourTildes (talk) 23:49, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Add-addendum: Did look on my hard drive a few days ago. Have not been nearly as good about snapping new pics of rikishi - at one point I was way ahead of the curve on pics of up and comers, but I have fallen behind.  I'll be sure to get a pic of Onosho and probably some others next time I get a chance. FourTildes (talk) 05:28, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks FT. Some possible up-and-comers you could look out for -, , and .--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:29, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments and advice. I've bookmarked the sumo wrestlers page on commons. I see we have a Daiamami pic already which is useful as he's probably next up: he's a very big lad but we'll find out a lot more about his potential in November.  Tigerboy1966  07:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

With Onosho kyujo recently I haven't had a chance to get a pic. If he's back in May I'm sure I'll get one.FourTildes (talk) 05:03, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Harumafuji intai
If Harumafuji's resignation is accepted would his career record table show "Retired" in the box for Nov 2017 or Jan 2018?  Tigerboy1966  07:39, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The former. He will not be on the January 2018 banzuke as he retired just before the meeting to draw up the new rankings. Incidentally this is at In the news/Candidates now so any help with improving the article and adding sources would be much appreciated.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:29, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Honbasho Articles
Are there any articles about specific honbasho? Or are they not considered notable? I'd assume they would be and I'm just not looking in the right place, but figured I'd double check here. South Nashua (talk) 02:11, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Apologies for overlooking this until now. We have few sumo content creators right now, sadly, and no-one has created one yet. Myself I prefer to do “sumo year” articles and cover the six honbasho there, but I would have no objections to articles on individual basho - indeed I would welcome it. I don’t think notability would be a problem.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh great, South Nashua has been indefinitely blocked. Just my luck :( --Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:05, 28 January 2018 (UTC)