Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Systems/Archive 2

Category:WikiProject Systems - rename:
Shouldn't it be Category:WikiProject Systems rather than Category:WikiProjects Systems? Perhaps we should change this now if so. — Jonathan Bowen 02:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I moved everything over between the two categories above to match the standard naming convention. — Jonathan Bowen 02:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Good thinking, my mistake. I've tried to put the old category up for deletion - Mdd 11:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Complex systems - attempted rename:
For information, please note the attempt now to change the name of Category:Complex systems to Category:Complex systems (science). Do vote under Categories for discussion/Log/2007 April 19 if you wish! — Jonathan Bowen 02:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The renaming to Category:Complex systems science seemed like a reasonable alternative - Mdd 11:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This discussion had continued, here - Mdd 22:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

No decision yet
Untill this moment, no decision has been made by the Wikipedia administration regarding the renaming. I wonder if we can do something more here. I'm afraid we have been to busy with the Category:Systems to give this more consideration. - Mdd 19:35, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

A decision is made
A decision is at last made to rename the Category:Complex systems to Category:Complex systems theory. Should we do anything about this yet? If you (Jonathan) think it has a high priority, then we should do something about it this week? - Mdd 21:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Systems stubs - for deletion:
I have added a Category:Systems stubs category associated with. — Jonathan Bowen 02:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've seen that this Category:Systems stubs is put up for deletion. I've had I similair problem at the Dutch Wikipedia. The way to go here was, that you had to make a proposal first. And in a parent directory there should be a least twenty stubs to begin with. The situations in Holland is even more complicated. They don't like stubs at all and try to reduce them all the time. I hope this will help you a little - Mdd 11:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, yes, I have asked if a post hoc proposal can be initiated or if we have to wait now. A learning process on the procedure I guess! — Jonathan Bowen 17:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

A new categorie Systems stubs ??
Copy from the Category talk:WikiProject Systems:


 * The new template and cat are systemstheory-stub and . ~ Amalas rawr  =^_^=  16:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not quit clear what this means. Does this mean, that we have a own type of stubs now? If that's the case I gratulate you Jonathan for geting this on the road. - Mdd 19:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Systems appeal:
I'm trying for an appeal for Category:Systems — see - we can see what happens anyway, but do add to the discussion! — Jonathan Bowen 17:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I was not aware of that possibility. Am I right that you are the editor, who initiated this. The hole article Deletion review gave me some more information about what this is about. I wonder who can contribute here? and has I any change of succes?
 * In Holland I had a larger discussion with LimoWreck, who contacted User:Radiant! see, who unfortunately didn't react. I still wonder who this Radiant is, and what kind of hidden agenda he had making that decision.
 * Getting the Category:Systems back is not a top priority for me at this moment. I prefer to work around it. Explore new possibility. It's maybe a good thing you go straight ahead here. Last but not least... I rapported the category missing - Good luck - Mdd 22:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all the info. Do add you comment/vote under Deletion_review/Log/2007_April_20 anyway. I believe any Wikipedia editor can vote, and it is worth adding a comment if you believe that Wikipedia guidelines were not followed properly (as I do now having actually read the WP:OC overcategorization guidelines. See especially WP:OC which I think is what has been applied (although this was not made explicit in the Call for Deletion). It seems that it was a fine judgement because "keep" votes (actually the majority) concentrated on "usefulness" rather than Wikipedia guidelines/policy. — Jonathan Bowen 02:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Guideline Categorization mentions 'useful' eight times and guideline Overcategorization mentions 'useful' six times. Guidelines Categorization and Overcategorization support usefulness as a guideline reason to keep categories. Closing the debate by asserting that the Keep positions use WP:USEFUL page information to support their argument when no keep position referred to that page misinterprets the debate, which is a basis for overturning at DRV. -- Jreferee 17:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I suppose that this argument should be brought forward at the Deletion Review talk. Greetings - Mdd 22:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The appeal is closed
Sorry Jonathan. I guess we lost the appeal against the decision of the Wikipedia Administration to decide to delete the Category:Systems. It's becoming quiet a bureaucracy, with it's own bureaucratical lanquage: The deletion is endorsed, they say. I looked it up. In Holland this means bekrachtigd. Now I understand. I'm further under the impression that this admistration is aware of our discussion here. Maybe even watching over our shoulders, given their explaination by the decision :


 * Category:Systems – Deletion endorsed. (Of course, discussion of any different recreations is free to continue elsewhere.) – Xoloz 14:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I personaly don't regret this outcome. Like I said before  I am not so sure this a bad thing. Several people where under the impression that the last state of the :Category:Systems (before deletion) was a mess. I liked it a lot, but I also like the solution we are working on now. - Mdd 19:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

An alternative Category:Systems
I would like this talk about an alternative Category:Systems starts with an intention. (from ):

There are however difference kind of systems: And those two don't match. The object people talk about are meanly material things, with some complexity. Scientists speak about more general formal concepts. The objects they talk about are meanly idea's, or inmaterial sytems.
 * People in real life called objects systems, and still name objects a ...system because they have someting in common: some unkown quality sometimes called complexity. By putting the articles called ...systems in one category, we group articles about objects, that have that one quality in common... The category was intented to let people find about objects with that one same quality.
 * You have all the objects in the world, that people in society call systems, say A.
 * ... and you have the objects (systems) scientists talk about, say B.

Now the former category was about A and B. One alternative solution can be:


 * 1) One Category:Systems (in practice) about A
 * 2) One Category:Systems (in theory) about B
 * 3) One Category:Systems about A & B

In this situation the Category systems is back for categories and articles about systems in theory and practice. This looks like a theoretical solution. - Mdd 14:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * From a practical point of view - a category for "A" is trivial and not at all encyclopedic ("stuff that people call systems" is not an interesting field). The topic of "B" is not at all trivial and certainly encyclopedic as a scientific field. However, a category for "B" will almost certainly be used for "A" as well by well-meaning but misunderstanding editors. Note that people tend not to read description sections on cat pages. Thus, we either need a better name for it that is not as easily misunderstood, if possible, or we need a list article instead.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  15:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This proposal seems too abstract. It's really difficult to distinguish between A and B, and the average Wikipedia user would get confused.  Besides, as a scientist, I tend to think of systems in the same sense that I would as a layperson.  (Maybe I'm not the right kind of scientist.)  I also think that this is just going to lead to the creation of a category with things named "system".  It just does not look like it is going to work.  Dr. Submillimeter 15:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * See also discussion under User_talk:Jpbowen. Here is a suggestion for subcategories in a resurrected Category:Systems category as a starting point:


 * Category:Complex systems
 * Category:Conceptual systems
 * Category:Holism
 * Category:Information systems
 * Category:Physical systems
 * Category:Systems biology
 * Category:Systems engineering
 * Category:Systems theory


 * I think there should be a very few general high-level systems concepts as articles. What do you think? — Jonathan Bowen 16:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * On these high level categories, there needs to be an objective way to convey the membership criteria as well as an objective way to create subcategories. Expecting the title of the category to convey the membership criteria is not reasonable.  The membership criteria for Category:Systems can be set out in the lead paragraph to Category:Systems.  As for that lead paragraph category membership criteria, it needs to be objective.  Stating that the Category:Systems should meet your expert, personal understanding of systems is subjective and not the Wikipedia way.  Wikipedia process does not really address making categories objective as well as it addresses making articles objective. Category:Newspapers was a mess before we tied it to the information in the Newspaper article as the objective membership criteria.  It still might be a mess, but the Newspaper article provides definitions and framework from which points of agreement can be reached and objective criteria can arise. As the newspaper article changes per Wikipedia process, so will the category.  Category:Systems should be tied to the systems article as the objective membership criteria.  That way, those interested in this matter can discuss formulating Category:Systems by revising the systems article per the numerous Wikipedia processes governing articles.  Consensus already established the structure and definitions in the systems article so I don't believe that there needs to be additional consensus on creating a Category:Systems based on that systems article since the consensus already is there. -- Jreferee 17:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm beginning to see this issue as one of Naming conventions. System has multiple meanings. Is there one meaning of system that dominates over other meanings? If yes, then Category:Systems can be named "Category:Systems" and use that meaning as the membership criteria.  If no, then having a "Category:Systems" name may cause too much confusion and there should only be "Category:Systems (xxxxx)" names. -- Jreferee 17:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all. I made a first draft of the three possible categories: As you can see in the first category, the alternative of Jonathan Bowen is put into this solution. The three categories are not meant as the only solution but as opening for more alternative views. - Mdd 20:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Category Systems
 * 2) Category Systems (in practice)
 * 3) Category Systems (in theory)

Comments
Comment to Radiant: Thanks, in your lines I read two statements: And with A out of the way, there is no category for "A&B". Your right about the first thing. But this argument is truth for 99% of all the articles. Does any person finds from all the 1 Million articles more then 10.000 articles interesting. There is a general misunderstanding, that a gathering of systems are interesting for lots of people. How many articles in the category:science are interesting? Should we skip that? Two reasons for the creation of category A are: And with category A we also need a category A&B. - Mdd 21:14, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * ... (You think that) a category for "A" ..."Stuff that people call systems" is not an interesting field...
 * ... a category for "B" ... need a better name...
 * There a lot of things in life people call systems and Wikipedians may highlight this phenomenon: in articles, list and categories.
 * If you don't wikipedians will put them in category B and in a year or so we have the same problem as today.

Comment to Dr. Submillimeter: Thanks, the abstract proposal is now realized in a first draft. Would this work? Like all abstract categories, for example Category:Science, these things need maintenance with a WikiProject Systems could provide. - Mdd 21:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Comment to Jonathan Bowen: Thanks, the creation of high-level categories in the fields of systems, can only be based on generally accepted point of views. And this is as we know a mayor problem in the system science community. From the beginning in the 1950s there have been a jungle of systems-terms. A theortical problem in the Wikipedia is how to create a space, where different terms and point of views for the field, can be represented in an logical comprehesive way. I think that the solution, you're working on with a higher-level category Physical systems and Conceptual Systems, can exist within the solution of three categorie, and be part of it. The fact remains, that the set of systems can be divided by different criteria. I just stated in your talk page: So there we seem to have an alternative solution...? - Mdd 22:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In terms of the discussion in the WikiProject Systems Talk: Your solution looks like a category B called Category:Conceptual systems, who is a parent of category A, here called Category:Physical systems. Instead of my alternative with three categories... This looks like an alternative solution with two categories B (father) and A (child).

Comment to Jreferee: Thanks, you mention that an article Systems should explain the intention of a category Systems, and the term Systems has multiple meaning... the 37 definitions the Google source mentioned are, I'm affraid, only the beginning. In the Dutch wikipedia we looked at the meaning of systems in different fields: in music, philosophy, general science, systems theory and thermodynamics. I agree with you that if higher level categories are made, articles should also be created to explain these categories. I put that argument in my first draft, and named corresponing articles. The fact remains als Radiant already daid, names must or can be better... - Mdd 22:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems that systems can be broken down into scientific systems and non-scientific systems. Since only scientific systems may have a purpose on Wikipedia, perhaps the top level category should be called Category:Scientific systems. By using Category:Systems, it seems to put Wikipedia in the position of using original research to define systems and then expecting the rest of the world to conform their WP:RS information to Wikipedia's cagegorization. There a lot of things in life people call systems and Wikipedia is designed to be a follower of such actions and is not designed to lead these people into a better way. Also, if the experts disagree as to what system means and it is a major problem in the system science community, it may be improper to use Wikipedia's publication muscle in an attempt to resolve that disagreement. -- Jreferee 16:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll react to the first part later. Here about your concerns what a Category:Systems could add, and about defining systems. I think a high level Category:Systems itselve doesn't need an exact definition of systems. The Category:Systems can have two objectives:
 * To gather articles closely associated with the concept of systems (as Jonathan Bowen says)
 * To be the high level category for systems in theory and practice and closely related theory.
 * The definition problem starts the second level categories as I will discussed later - Mdd 21:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Category:Physical systems and Category:Conceptual systems is best as part of the initial breakdown of categories since these are accepted terms. The idea of systems appears in engineering, mathematics, philosophy, and the social sciences as well as the more traditional natural science subjects, so I don't think it is appropriate to use the term "scientific" at the top-level (speaking as an engineer, with an interest in mathematics and philosophy!). In any case the term "scientific system" is not a well-accepted term. For example, that is no existing article on this topic (as opposed to "system", "physical system" and "conceptual system" for example). Let's try to stick to accepted terms for names where possible.

See further discussion under User talk:Jpbowen. I would suggest a minimalist approach at the top level — e.g., with just system as an article and all other articles that appear to be diffused by members of the WikiProject Systems to one or more appropriate sub-categories. Let's try to keep the top-level uncontroversial through diffusion of articles/categories. But I think a simple top-level Category:Systems category is important as a root for the area. With members of this project keeping an eye on the top level to diffuse artcles, I don't think maintenance will be a significant problem in practice (cf. Category:Museums that I alread maintain like this). Here is a suggested (draft) introduction:


 * This category is for high-level categories associated with the concept of systems. Articles should be placed in sub-categories.

Let's keep it simple for a top-level Category:Systems category to obtain reasonable consensus at this level at least. What do people think? — Jonathan Bowen 17:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, here also I will react to the first and last part later. Here some things about the naming of new subcategories you proposed in your talk page and the definition problem...
 * But maybe first I have to stipulate, that I'm a not-native English speaker. I'm not able to express myselve in much detailed English. And I'm also not able to understand to much detailed terms. Second that I'm a Dutch Wikimediaan, and a guest at the English Wikipedia. The main reason why I mix myselve in these affair is, that I see this not as the Native English Wikipedia... but as the Universal Wikipedia, the example for all countries. This is the pleace where the standards are set.
 * Now Jonathan mentioned "physical system" and "conceptual system" as examples of well-accepted term. Google however only mentions the wikipedia definitions of these terms, see: and . There seems to be a problem here: Too many defitions of systems, too little of "physical system" and "conceptual system". - Mdd 22:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Jonathan Bowen, could you place your draft category on a temporary page and point all related discussions to that page? This would add some clarity to these discussions.


 * The division into physical and conceptual systems that Jonathan Bowen has developed seems to work the best. For example, it divides the galaxies (a type of gravitationally-bound system) from the astronomical coordinate systems.  The previous Category:Systems would have treated these things as equivalent.  Also, the terms "physical system" and "conceptual system" can probably be understood by the average (English-language) editor without needing to study the terms in depth.  (I understood without much difficulty.)  This means that the average Wikipedia editor will probably use these categories correctly.


 * Jreferee, could you explain how to proceed on this? If we all agree, do we just recreate the category from scratch?  (We should also probably link all of these discussions to the talk page of the new category.)


 * I would still like to read User:Radiant!'s opinion on Jonathan Bowen's proposal before proceeding to recreate the category. Dr. Submillimeter 22:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

"Physical system" is a well accepted term (1,110,000 Google hits for example) and mainly applies to systems in natural science and engineering. "Conceptual system" is also a standard term, if less used (181,000 Google hits for comparison), and applies more to systems in the social sciences, philosophy, mathematics, etc. (essentially non-physical systems). I think this is a major initial split that gets around a lot of the problems noted by Dr. Submillimeter. From my point of view, I would rather avoid controversy, at least at the higher levels of the hierarchy, so feel it is best to diffuse articles to lower levels to help with this. Dr. Submillimeter seems to be happy with the suggested categories at the top level, which I hope demonstrates a reasonable level of acceptability. I would much prefer to stick with accepted nomenclature where possible, rather than inventing Wikipedia-specific terms. Just my tuppennyworth!

My preference would be to recreate the category with just the categories I suggested, a brief introduction to indicate that articles should not be at the top-level, and just the system article itself at the top-level. I think it important that there is a top-level for the overall systems concept, but that things are categorised at a lower level in general. I will create a draft category as suggested. — Jonathan Bowen 22:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you. One of my specialities is categorization of science. And now I understand that you want to make a split in systems & sciences. With a little interpretation I get:
 * Physical systems and physical science
 * Conceptual systems and conceptual science
 * Shouldn't a split in two kind of systems & sciences be at least based on a normal split in sciences. - Mdd 23:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Summary: Four alternatives
From the former discussion I can destilate four alternatives: Please correct the above if I'm wrong. How do we go from here? - Mdd 22:42, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) One category about the systems scientists talk about. And stuff that people call systems is not an interesting field, so no high level category for them.
 * 2) High level Category Systems (draft) with subcategories Category Systems (in practice) (draft) and Category Systems (in theory) (draft)
 * 3) High level Category:Systems (draft) with subcategories Category:Conceptual systems (real) and Category:Physical systems (real)
 * 4) High level Category:Scientific systems and one subcategory  Category:Non-scientific systems


 * As requested by Dr. Submillimeter, I have put my suggested new Category:Systems category under User:Jpbowen/Draft - Category Systems. I guess this is #3 with additional categories from the four alternatives above. Comments welcome. — Jonathan Bowen 23:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, this gives a hole new perspective of your idea. - Mdd 23:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Glad this is helpful. Since Dr. Submillimeter seems to be agreeable to this, it may be a way forward. If so, we can start working on lower-level systems categorization. — Jonathan Bowen 23:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. It took a weeks to delete the Category:Systems. We shouldn't want to try to fix this in a minute. I for example have some serious questions about it. I think we should take some time (days(?) to think this over. There are some reasons for this. If we recreate this category and someone nominates it again for deletion... we must show we considered all option. I also would like to get response from Dr. Submillimeter, Jreferee, Radiant and maybe others. - Mdd 23:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think categories for stuff scientists talk about are generally useful. "Conceptual" and "Physical" systems would be better terms for that than "Systems (in practice)" and so forth. I wonder about the supercategory, though. If it just serves as placeholder for the conceptual and physical cats, it really isn't needed; the cats can just link to one another. I'm afraid that if we recreate it, it will once again become a cat for anything that has "system" in its name. Note that we already have Category:Systems theory, perhaps that can be used instead?  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  10:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I think the next comparising will takes away some part of your concerns. For the renaming argument I will create a new section - Mdd 11:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * (In response to Radiant!) I actually think that the category tree that Jonathan Bowen has derived would, to some degree, prevent Category:Systems from becoming a list of things called systems, especially since most other systems categories and articles are already located in subcategories. A diffuse tag may also help with preventing the category from being cluttered.  I do share some concerns about this category in the long term, but I will assume on good faith that Jonathan Bowen will be able to maintain this category.  Dr. Submillimeter 20:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

A comparising of alternatives
Now (the next day) I'm beginning to understand that the third alternative (of Jonathan Bowen) is more logical, than the second alternative (I suggested). They are based on different contrasts: There is a second different concerning the new high level Category: Systems. The 2th draft  puts categories and articles about the theory of systems with the formal systems in B. The 3th draft puts categories and articles about the theory of systems  in the high level category A&B itselve. - Mdd 11:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The 2th takes empirircal systems A and formal systems B as contrast
 * The 3th takes physical systems A and conceptual systems B as constrast

A high level Category Systems, Scientific systems or Systems theory
This question of renaming is brought up by Radiant and I hereby made this a new point of discussion. In this talk three names have been suggested now. Reactions (also from newcomers) are welcome here.- Mdd 11:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Can we just work with User:Jpbowen/Draft - Category Systems? Everyone else likes this proposal.  Dr. Submillimeter 20:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, except that it would be nice to give it a better title. Regardless of an explanation on the top of the cat page, a cat with an unclear title will me misused.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  08:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't have to remind you, that their is a mayor discussion right now initiated by you to rename Category:Complex systems to Category:Complex systems (theory). I don't like to have the same discusion soon about: We should at least make a list of arguments, why we think both option are out of the question. And ... I don't have the impression Radiant allready agrees. And ... last. This is not a democracy, where the mayority rules. We ... or I want to reach a concensus here. A situation where nowbody has mayor problems with the new situation - Mdd 20:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * renaming the new Category:Systems to something like Category: Systems (theory)
 * ... or merge the new Category:Systems with Category:Systems theory.


 * OK. Could you show a draft of what you are proposing?  Dr. Submillimeter 08:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Dr. Submillimeter for giving me this opportunity, and  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  for making his request (sorry I misted it earlier), and Jonathan Bowen for making a head start. I'll get back about this tomorrow. - Mdd 23:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I like Category:Systems as a name because it is simple and high-level. I think there is enough momentum behind this with the launch is a Systems project to ensure that the high-level contents remain simple. And I think other names are likely to be more controversial because they will have some sort of bias. In any case, if we restart with a new slimmed down systems category and there do prove to be problems in the future, it is still possible to propose a rename, but I do think we should give it is a little time first. The problem before was that the Category:Systems was just drifting rudderless. I don't think that is the case now! Is it possible to just recreate the category with the proposed sub-categories? What is the procedure in the case of recently removed categories that have had a makeover? I don't want to treat on anyone's toes! — Jonathan Bowen 14:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm quite willing to give it a try provided somebody is willing to look at Category:Systems with some regularity to make sure its content matches with its purpose.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  07:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

On the request of Dr. Submillimeter a draft proposal is made for further discussion about a new Category:Systems. As you can see, I have called it an Audit (an evaluation of an organization, system, process, project or product). - Mdd 11:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Audit of a new Category:Systems
This audit started 27 April 2007, and its targets are: In contrast to earlier discussion, this audit will go in different directions at the same time. Herefore a lay out of the entire audit structure is made at one's. After this, every participant can add new items, comments on these discussion-items, correct the final advice... and comment under the remaining items (again in chronological order). Good luck..!?
 * 1) not merely investigate the proposal for a new Category:Systems but also
 * 2) to evaluate the most important circumstances, moves and motives with let to this proposal,
 * 3) to investigate underlaying problems, and
 * 4) to come up with an final advice or plan of action.

What (major) events led to this proposal?
There are some more or less important stages lead to this proposal:


 * 1) Sept 2005: The old Category:Systems started and grew uncensored to its latest form, see (back up)
 * 2) 11 April 2007: The category was nominated for deletion, and an discussion about this started, see
 * 3) 20 April 2007: This WikiProject Systems is initiated to better organize the information about systems on the Wikipedia
 * 4) 20 April 2007: An appeal against the decision to delete the category: systems started a new discussion, see
 * 5) 21 April 2007: A search for a copromise and alternative solution started here  and continued here
 * 6) 26-27 April 2007: The participants of the latest discussion agreed to created a new Category:Systems. This audit started as experiment to think this over one's more.

Why did the old Category:Systems grew so large?
A thing I still wonder is, why the old Category:Systems grew so large in articles, while there where so many subcategories to put these articles in? Was it just a lack of control? Could we learn from an answer here? And could we do a little experiment just cleaning the articles in that category? - Mdd 13:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * In general that is because many editors use a category as its title indicates, rather than as the category is meant. To layman, anything that has "system" in the name is arguably a system.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  14:03, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, besides maintaince a template can be made (like the cybernetic template) which gives editors a little more direction with the categorisation. But this is of cause not an answer to the question. - Mdd 14:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think this was partly because there was not an obvious hierarchy for diffusion of articles. I hope the Category:Physical systems and Category:Conceptual systems categories (and others) are a start for this. It was also partly because nobody was keeping a particular eye on it. I believe these problems can be solved with the Systems project underway and a start for a hierarchy. — Jonathan Bowen 18:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Is the systems concept still that important?
You might wonder, why we should ask this question at all? I brought this in with the following prelimanary (jump to) conclusions:

Thinking this hole history over, I came to the suspicion, that the problems we are dealing with here are larger than just reïnstating a Category:Systems. It's my impression that the article system isn't completely accurate. This could undermine all discussion, about what the category stystems could mean and collect. - Mdd 14:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In practice the term systems is immens populair. Lot's of things are called a system.
 * In practice this term has multiple meaning, which are not represented in the lastest article systems. An extra article System (disambiguation) is an option.
 * In the field of systems theories the systems concept is important, but other concepts are important as well like: complexity, adaptivity, distribution... The systems term remains more the common term.


 * Yes, it is still important in my opinion! We should modify the system article if necessary. — Jonathan Bowen 18:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Should we want to group everything called a system?
I think, that developing a more specific list of things called a system, we can bring new light to this question. - Mdd 14:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Only things that are semantically "systems" (as considered by some field of study) should be included somewhere in the hierarchy. For example, if a pop group used the word "system" in their name, it would not be appropriate. — Jonathan Bowen 18:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Should we name the highest category systems?
In science the discussion in the fields around systems theory about systems have been going on for mare that 50 years now. In the field of systems theories the systems concept is important, but other concepts are important as well like:
 * Complexity in the study field of Complex Systems
 * Adaptivity in the study field of Complex adaptive systems
 * Distribution in recent research aroud distributed systems

It's my impression that the systems term remains more the common term, while much research is in fact aroudn complexity, adaptation, distribution etc... The quetsion is, if it's suitable to put all these related reseach under the one term systems. - Mdd 14:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

PS. Shouldn't we create an other article instead of the article systems right now?


 * I think this is the least contentious name. All others have some sort of bias. — Jonathan Bowen 18:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there a better name for the category?
Under this item I like to ask  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt; 's question again, if we can't give the category a better title? We should a least make a list of titles possible? - Mdd 14:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * As above, I think others will show some bias or other. — Jonathan Bowen 18:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Can the new form be an example for other countries?
I've been looking at the category:systems in the other European countries and found some differences... and strange things, that the category doesn't exist in Germany and seems to be deleted in Spain... but nowhere such a wild grow? Of cause I can speak best for the Dutch situation. I'll bring forward some details later? - Mdd 14:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I hope we can be an exemplar! — Jonathan Bowen 18:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

How is the procedure to recreate a recent deleted category?
This question was brought up by Jonathan Bowen. As far a I know: Pleace somebody correct me if I'm wrong. There is however a moral obligation bring some improvements. Mdd 14:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There are no special procedure to recreate a recent deleted category (please correct me if I'm wrong). Everybody can restart it any minute.


 * I would like to know this too. Is there a Wikipedia procedure or can we just go ahead? Pointers by seasoned Wikipedians welcome! — Jonathan Bowen 18:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The helpdesk gave the following respons :
 * Use WP:DRV, just like with articles. - Mgm|(talk) 20:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Final audit advice / plan of action
From the points discusted (...with some jump to conclusion) we can come up with: Last but not least, we should thank each for each effort to bring this to a good ending. This final advice can be signed by everybody who agrees or hasn't got insurmountable problems with this:
 * 1) In practice the term systems is immens populair. Lot's of things are called a system.
 * 2) In practice this term has multiple meaning, which are not represented in the lastest article systems. An extra article System (disambiguation) is an option.
 * 3) In the field of systems theories the systems concept is important, but other concepts are important as well like: complexity, adaptivity, distribution... The systems term remains more the common term.
 * 4) A template can be made like the cybernetic template to give a model of the new solution
 * 5) It's not to be expected, that the new outcome here is automatically an example for other countries.
 * 6) There are no special procedure to recreate a recent deleted category (please correct me if I'm wrong). Everybody can restart it any minute.

Remaining items:
The above audit proposal can look like a lot of talking about a thing we already agree about. Creating this form however brought me the idea, that this for could be used in the future to investigate other bigger problems in the field of systems. For example the growing systems theory article... or the returning initiative to merge systems theory with cybernetics. The above form... even with the preliminary jump to conclusion... is the draft I have come up with. I hope it's going to be a workable form.- Mdd 12:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see, have I said enough for the moment. I hope this will get this common audit started. Good luck - Mdd 14:51, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all your input. I think getting the systems category back in a new form would act as a good focus anyway. — Jonathan Bowen 18:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm beginning to fear that I've been to ambiguous with my (top-down) approach of this audit. The idea of an audit is maybe a good idea. But auditing a situation which isn't even in pleace yet... I guess that's just to complicated. Getting the category back right now seems like a good idea to me. Then we can also start working bottum-up... and solve the problems on the way. Maybe we just skipp this audit, and get some real work done. There is also lot's to be done to get the project organization and technique running. I still believe all of the questions I've asked above are worth looking at and solving. But maybe we could solve them one at a time. Thanks for the efforts - Mdd 19:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

A go ahead for the new Category:Systems
Note from WP:DRV:

Do we have enough consensus to use User:Jpbowen/Draft - Category Systems as a starting point for a new systems category (Mdd)? Dr. Submillimeter seems to be agreeable so if you are too, I think we could go ahead. I can do this if you like, if you give your agreement. Best wishes, Jonathan Bowen 20:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)


 * To repeate the statement from  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  from above (from: A high level Category Systems, Scientific systems or Systems theory):
 * I'm quite willing to give it a try provided somebody is willing to look at Category:Systems with some regularity to make sure its content matches with its purpose.  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  07:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm under the impression that  &gt; R a d i a n t &lt;  also agrees under his condition.
 * Together with Jonathan Bowen as members of the WikiProject Systems I would like to take the task upon me to look at Category:Systems with some regularity to make sure its content matches with its purpose. I do think we have enough consensus now to use User:Jpbowen/Draft - Category Systems as a starting point for a new systems category. I'll like to give Jonathan Bowen the honor to recreate the new category. - Mdd 22:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have recreated the restructured Category:Systems category as discussed here (thank you for the honour Mdd!) and I too promise to keep an eye on the new systems category as part of this project. Currently I have just put the new category just under Category:Structure since most of the other categories previously included are now more appropriate for sub-categories. — Jonathan Bowen 00:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Good work. As you can see I've already put some templates on these categories. We can discused these details later. I'll call a day, today. Good night. - Mdd 00:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Clarification of the new Category:Systems

 * This talk item is a result of the past discussions:
 * An alternative Category:Systems
 * Audit of a new Category:Systems,
 * A go ahead for the new Category:Systems,


 * which are now archived in The WikiProject Systems Archive.

The new category lead to an (indirect) critical note, see and this made me thinking... I realized, that the new solution we came up with here is still hidden in the past discussions. Maybe we should explain this solution in short. So this is what I'm going to do. Last edited - Mdd 21:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll edit the lastest announcement, and put some words in it about this
 * I'll give a short reaction on the WikiProject Physics talk, because I was the one pointing Paddy Leahy in this direction. There I'll like to explain the new situation to come from my perspective.
 * ... But a more structural solution is on the way, with the design of a Template:Systems. I'll make this a new discussion item here, see.

Renaming the Category:Systems theory researchers to Category:Systems Scientists
Hi, I've been thinking for some time now about rename the Category:Systems theory researchers to Category:Systems Scientists. Before I start this procedure, I would first like to ask everybody interested for their opinions about this? - Mdd 14:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

About the related Category:Cellular automatists
On a related note, would it make sense to make Category:Cellular automatists into a subcategory of whichever of these two names ends up being used? However, not all people in that category are systems theory researchers (it includes e.g. some artists). —David Eppstein 16:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think Category:Cellular automatists could fit into the Category:Systems theory researchers if some part of the scientists mention do work in the field of complex systems. Maybe you can judge this? But if you like, I can look into it. - Mdd 23:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It does include people like Christopher Langton and Melanie Mitchell who are I think bona fide systems theory researchers, but also a lot of others who aren't. So I'm still unsure. —David Eppstein 06:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * From the people mentioned in the category, I yesterday traced Brosl Hasslacher, Norman Packard and Stephen Wolfram as chaos theorists. I put the new category:Chaos theorists under Category:Systems theory researchers, so they are now formely systems theory researchers.
 * I think an important first question here is how to define a systems theory researcher and a systems scientist? There are different options here:
 * ... a narrow definition is people related to General Systems Theory
 * ... and a broad definition is people related to all different forms of systems theory
 * The theory and practice will give us little to hold on to. We have to make our own choice here. Maybe this choice is also related to whole category structure. For example there is the option for:
 * ... a more narrow Category:General systems scientists in the Category:Systems theory
 * ... a more broad Category:Systems scientists in the Category:Systems
 * In this new situation the category Category:Cellular automatists can be placed directly in the Category:Systems scientists. Do you think that this would be an possible/acceptable solution? - Mdd 09:46, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, they're not all even scientists — the category includes also some artists who use cellular automata in their art. But, if you interpret "systems scientist" as someone who does systems science, and cellular automata as a part of systems science, then it makes sense. —David Eppstein 15:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If you keep having doubts, maybe it's for the best not to put the hole category into the Category:Systems scientists. An alternative is to put some scientists individualy in systems category. Just like I put some of them in the category:Chaos theorists. Would this suit you? - Mdd 21:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, that would work. —David Eppstein 21:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, let's do that. I won't put that category into the old and new Category:Systems scientists. - Mdd 21:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I found a listing of complex systems scientists in the Santa Fe Institute article. I guess with that list I can start an Category:Complex systems scientists. In this new category I can put some cellular automatists as well!? - Mdd 00:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

An alternative: A Category:Systems scientists and a Category:General systems scientists
In the last discussion an alternative soultions has grown for the initial problem: Instead of just renaming, first a top category will be created. This looks like a good alternative - Mdd 21:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) A new Category:Systems scientists in the Category:Systems
 * 2) And renaming the current Category:systems theory researchers to a new Category:General systems scientists.

Renaming the Category:Systems theory researchers to Category:Systems scientists
Hi, I've been thinking for some time now about rename the Category:Systems theory researchers to Category:Systems scientists. Before I start this procedure, I would first like to ask everybody interested for their opinions about this? - Mdd 14:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

About the related Category:Cellular automatists
On a related note, would it make sense to make Category:Cellular automatists into a subcategory of whichever of these two names ends up being used? However, not all people in that category are systems theory researchers (it includes e.g. some artists). —David Eppstein 16:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think Category:Cellular automatists could fit into the Category:Systems theory researchers if some part of the scientists mention do work in the field of complex systems. Maybe you can judge this? But if you like, I can look into it. - Mdd 23:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It does include people like Christopher Langton and Melanie Mitchell who are I think bona fide systems theory researchers, but also a lot of others who aren't. So I'm still unsure. —David Eppstein 06:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * From the people mentioned in the category, I yesterday traced Brosl Hasslacher, Norman Packard and Stephen Wolfram as chaos theorists. I put the new category:Chaos theorists under Category:Systems theory researchers, so they are now formely systems theory researchers.
 * I think an important first question here is how to define a systems theory researcher and a systems scientist? There are different options here:
 * ... a narrow definition is people related to General Systems Theory
 * ... and a broad definition is people related to all different forms of systems theory
 * The theory and practice will give us little to hold on to. We have to make our own choice here. Maybe this choice is also related to whole category structure. For example there is the option for:
 * ... a more narrow Category:General systems scientists in the Category:Systems theory
 * ... a more broad Category:Systems scientists in the Category:Systems
 * In this new situation the category Category:Cellular automatists can be placed directly in the Category:Systems scientists. Do you think that this would be an possible/acceptable solution? - Mdd 09:46, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, they're not all even scientists — the category includes also some artists who use cellular automata in their art. But, if you interpret "systems scientist" as someone who does systems science, and cellular automata as a part of systems science, then it makes sense. —David Eppstein 15:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If you keep having doubts, maybe it's for the best not to put the hole category into the Category:Systems scientists. An alternative is to put some scientists individualy in systems category. Just like I put some of them in the category:Chaos theorists. Would this suit you? - Mdd 21:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, that would work. —David Eppstein 21:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, let's do that. I won't put that category into the old and new Category:Systems scientists. - Mdd 21:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I found a listing of complex systems scientists in the Santa Fe Institute article. I guess with that list I can start an Category:Complex systems scientists. In this new category I can put some cellular automatists as well!? - Mdd 00:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

An alternative: A Category:Systems scientists and a Category:General systems scientists
In the last discussion an alternative soultions has grown for the initial problem: Instead of just renaming, first a top category will be created. This looks like a good alternative - Mdd 21:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) A new Category:Systems scientists in the Category:Systems
 * 2) And renaming the current Category:systems theory researchers to a new Category:General systems scientists.

New systems science categories
In the past month I have made three new kind of categories: These three categories where placed under the Category:systems... For me this was a good solution for the moment and the near further. - Mdd 18:18, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Category:Systems scientists, with the existing Category:Systems theory researchers and Category:Cyberneticists and the new Category:Chaos theorists, Category:Systems engineers and Category:Complex systems scientists.
 * Category:Systems science literature with the existing Category:Systems theory books and the new Category:Systems journals
 * Category:Systems science organisations

A new Category:Systems science
Now Jonathan Bowen has today created a new top category Category:Systems science, and has gathered here all the categories about the theory of systems. Now I have further removed some categorization in the categories systems engineering, systems biology, systems theory etc. to avoid that categories are placed in parent and child categories. - Mdd 19:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

One question remains. With the new Category:Systems science the Category:Systems science literature becomes kind of unnecessary, partly because Jonathan has already put the Category:Systems journals in the Category:Systems science. One solution here is delete the Category:Systems science literature and to put its little content in the Category:Systems science. - Mdd 19:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the Category:Systems science literature category still serves a useful purpose allowing expansion for the future, so I would leave it. — Jonathan Bowen 11:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks this feedback and for putting the Category:Systems science literature in the Category:Scientific literature. I have now seen there that such a category is a sort of wikipedia standaard: All kinds of disciplines have such a category nowadays. - Mdd 12:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

New systems categories - II

 * This dialogue is copied here from User talk:Jpbowen

Thanks for creating the systems science category. Maybe you can give a short response on the question I have asked about this on the WikiProject Systems talkpage - Mdd 10:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have responded under Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Systems. I think the Category:Systems science literature category still serves a useful purpose allowing expansion for the future, so I would leave it. Thanks for the further updates. — Jonathan Bowen 11:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This further update leaves the Category:Systems rather useless. I wonder want you are thinking of that? - Mdd 12:49, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally I would leave Category:Systems engineering and Category:Systems theory at the top level. As an engineer, there is more to engineering that just science. I certainly don't think the top level is useless, it is a good high-level container for all aspects of systems. — Jonathan Bowen 13:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The Category:Systems engineering and Category:Systems theory also in the Category:systems is acceptable. By creating a Category:Systems I personally think you have created a new top level category beside the category:systems. A loop between the two categories is necessary. - Mdd 14:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Category loops are not allowed on Wikipedia. (It will get deleted by someone eventually if created.) Of course the ordering of categories is open to debate. But I think the Category:Systems category is the best high-level contain for all things to do with systems because of the simplicity of the name. Adding "science" (for instance) limits the area to scientific aspects (which is fine as a particular category under systems). I hope this is helpful (and convincing!). Best wishes, Jonathan Bowen 14:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree more and less that categories with "science" added should limits the area to scientific aspects and to the subjects the sciences are about. After creating an Category:Systems science the most logical place for the Category:Systems engineering and Category:Systems theory is in that category. This categories shouldn't also be in the parent and child category because of Wikipedia rules. And easy solution here seems to me to put the category:systems under the category:systems science or even easier to delete it. - Mdd 14:41, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree with this since I think the Category:Systems should include non-(hard) scientific aspects (e.g., economics, law, philosophy, politics, sociology, etc., as under Category:Conceptual systems) and also fits well under the Category:Structure category. Would you include also these under (just) systems science - I don't think it would be appropriate. If we had to delete one I would delete Category:Systems science but I don't see a good reason to delete either. (Indeed I can see good reasons to have it with the additional categories that you have created.) Systems in general are interdisciplinary, not just scientific. I hope this convinces you that there is more to systems than systems science. Best wishes, Jonathan Bowen 14:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In the past three months I made about 3000 edits just in this field, so I think I know something about this. - Mdd 15:14, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There is not doubt of that. I personally see this a bit like "museums" vs. "science museums", "literature" vs. "scientific literature", etc. You can have a category in one category and a parent category if the circumstances warrant it. For example, engineering is largely scientific, but includes other aspects, so I think warrants being under "systems" and "systems science" (for example). Do shoot down the argument above if you disagree! I am assuming you see it differently, but do say more explicitly why if this is the case and where you think the non-scientific aspects should live without an overall systems category. — Jonathan Bowen 15:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Marcel, I just checked and cycles are discouraged but allowed in certain circumstances — see Categorization. It could be argued that this is one of those circumstances — so do re-add "systems" under "systems science" if you feel strongly about this! — Jonathan Bowen 15:37, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

(Re)organizing Wikipedia's coverage on Systems and Systems science
Like I said in the past three months I made about a lot of edits in this field, and these edits mainly concerned:
 * 1) Getting this WikiProject started
 * 2) Setting an example with cooperation around Systems engineering (with a lot of help)
 * 3) Setting examples; creating new lists, uploading pictures, writing a new type of articles (Debora Hammond, Ralph Gerard)
 * 4) Wikifying some articles here and there
 * 5) Initiating some reorganization: creating new categories, renaming articles, proposing new article structure systems theory, enlarging the scope of this WikiProject (from "systems" to "systems and systems science").

Of all these activities the reorganization can be the most controversial. Hereby it's inevitable that I project some of my own ideals. Now this ideal is that the coverage of systems and systems science is open to students and scholars of most levels... and that this coverage fits the own Wikipedia standards.

Now I have the strong idea the the current Category:Systems doesn't fit these standards. In a way this category is the heart of all the coverage on systems. But in the current state it doesn't work: It's a poor beginning (little subcategories and articles) and a dead end (no higher level categories). I think there are no WikiProjects that have such a poor category to work with. In this top I think more reorganization is necessary to make the category a beating heart of all the coverage. If people agree or not agree, please say so? - Mdd 13:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally I wouldn't take quite such a pessimistic view. I think some of the categories at the top-level could be re-added (e.g., Category:Systems biology). There is Category:Structure as a parent category and there are similar high-level parent categories for other high-level system categories. For a better systems entry, I think setting up a Systems Portal would be a better route. Alternatively (or as well), perhaps you should develop the Category:Systems science category further along the lines you are considering and leave the existing Category:Systems category as a high-level category. What do you think? — Jonathan Bowen 16:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

In stead of starting a discussion, I started analysing the articles about systems in the wikipedia, and how they can be grouped: see WikiProject Systems/List of systems. I summarized the results under Category talk:Systems.

Based on this analysis I restructured the systems categories. Now the category:systems gives at once an overview of most important existing types of systems. Hereby the categories conceptual, physical and social systems are reduced to a more realistic size.

I think that this new situation is more realistic and avoids some of the overcategorization. Now a Systems Portal is for me still far away. There is still a lot to clearify, there are many articles that need attention, and most of the other articles are just a start. I personaly would like to put my effort in improving the articles first. I hope you like the changes I made. If not pleace let me know? - Mdd 23:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)