Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Systems/Archive 7

The assessment of categories and articles - May 2007
A start is made with the assement of categories and articles in the field of Systems. From this information a bot every day updates the article statistic shown on the WikiProject Systems page.

The rating of quality and importance
The rating of quality are made according to general assesment rules. The importance rating however is made from the WikiProject Systems point of view. So this important rating is relative. It tells about the importance the article has in the field of Systems. This rating in fact tells about the place the article or category has in the global structure in Systems, Systems theories and Systems scientists.

For further questions ask here, or ask directly to Mdd 21:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The relation between chaos theory, systems and systems theory - June 2007

 * This talk originaly started on the Talk:Chaos theory page

The importance rate of this article ((chaos theory)) for the WikiProject Systems has been uprated from high to top allready two weeks ago on 10 June 2007. I could have referted it because importance rates are set by the WikiProjects themselves and these rates have a particular objective meaning: The importance rate is not about the objective importance of the article, but of the relative difference from the article to the hart of the WikiProject. Now formaly the hart of the WikiProject Systems is in a way the category:systems. The items in this category get a top-importance, the items in the first subcategories are of high-importance.

Instead of referting this I kept wondering about the relation between chaos theory and systems and systems theory. Is or isn't chaos theory in the first place about chaos and not about systems. And aren't systems in the first place about organization and not about chaos? I know a bit more about systems theory, a little about chaos theory but even less about the role of systems and systems theory in chaos theory. Can somebody explain this to me? - Mdd 19:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I can't really answer the question, and would encourage others to do so, because it is an interesting and important question, but I should make some comments about changing the ratings.
 * First of all, I shouldn't have changed the systems theory importance rating, because this is the importance of the article for WikiProject Systems, and I don't know how that project assigns these ratings. Please change it back to "High" if you think it is appropriate: different projects can of course have different ratings for the same article.
 * Second, some background. At the Mathematics WikiProject, we are finding that too many articles are getting Mid and High importance ratings compared to Top and Low. In particular, this makes it harder to prioritise which Stub and Start-Class articles at the top end most need expansion. So we have been trying to improve the situation, and have developed more detailed importance criteria to help us.
 * Third, my changes here. I uprated the Mathematics importance from High to Top (by the above reasoning). Now, WikiProject physics is rather inactive right now, and I figured this article is at least as important in physics as maths, so uprated the physics importance too. Then I went a bit far by thinking "Well, if it is top for maths and physics, it probably is for systems too"!
 * Fourth, a comment. From what you have said, I understand that WikiProject Systems assesses importance in an absolute sense, i.e., only the main items in Category:Systems can hope to be top priority and so on. We discussed this quite a lot at the mathematics project, and have come to the conclusion that:
 * it is more helpful to assess the importance of an article within context rather than in absolute terms
 * Wikipedia 1.0 actually recommends this approach.
 * Now I am very impressed that your response to my mistake was not to revert it, but to think about it and raise such interesting questions. Maybe you might want to take some of the maths project thoughts on importance ratings back to WikiProject Systems and initiate a debate. All the best, anyway. Geometry guy 20:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

More about assessment of articles
I moved the above discussion here, because it offers some interesting thoughts about the assessment of articles. First of all thanks Geometry guy for your explaination and some explaination of how the WikiProject Mathematics works. I can imagine that those problems are much bigger at Mathematics, not at the least because the WikiProject Mathematics holds about is ten times more article then our WikiProject. And I can image that this brings the needs a more detailled assement. I however also experienced some things you mentioned about little top and low priority articles. To be through... I've been very carefull with the top-priority articles. And I avoid assessing articles to a low priority, because I think that the name low priority is demotivating. I wish they think of a better name for it.

I also experienced, that rating articles is not as easy as it seems. You need a clear set of rules to make it make any sence. I made an announcements about it on 1 may 2007, see. Here I explained the rating of importance a little different then above:


 * The rating of importance is an other story. You can rate the articles from None, Low, Mid, High to Top. This rating is however made from a WikiProject Systems point of view. So this important rating is relative. It tells about the importance the article has in the field of Systems. In fact, this rating tells about the place the article or category has in the global structure in field of Systems, Systems theories and Systems scientists.

For the moment this works for me... This is however not a rule, but more a kind of guideline. With the WikiProject just starting, assessment remains interesting but is also one of the least of our problems. The reason I started this talk in the first place was the opportunity the small incindent gave to look at these things in an other perspective. - Mdd 22:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * A few further comments from me.
 * You have made a good start! One of the best ways to assess articles is to compare them with other assessed articles, so starting up is the most difficult bit. It is quite good that one person has rated the first batch, because this means there should be some consistency: the "precedent" has been set.
 * I can see that there are very few low importance articles at the moment. I would not worry too much about this to start with, because of selection bias (i.e., the most important articles get rated first).
 * Assessing importance within the whole systems category is also fine to start with, but as the project grows, discrimination is lost between articles in more specialized subcategories.
 * At mathematics, we've tried to make it easier to rate articles as "low" in a couple of ways: first we have switched from using "low importance" to "low priority"; second, we've modified slightly the WP 1.0 importance criteria, so that the description of "low" is a bit more encouraging, and the description of "mid" is a bit stronger.
 * Keep up the good work! Geometry guy 13:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not sure that systems and systems theory can be said to have a role in chaos theory. I think it is rather the other way around; chaos theory has a role in systems and systems theory (from chaos emerges order and/or a system). In economics, notably, this is exposed through the concept of spontaneous order. See also Complex system which has some info, although probably not perfect. --Childhood&#39;s End 13:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Childhood&#39;s End, I copied your contribution to the Talk:Chaos theory page, and give an respons over there. I want to keep this talk item here specific about the assessment of articles. - Mdd 14:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

@Geometry guy. It's interesting what you say about switching from using "low importance" to "low priority". But I don't understand it. If I use the low-rate in the WikiProject Systems-template, for example Talk:Manufacturing Execution System: the template show low-importance and not low-priority. Now I found an example of what you mean at Talk:Infinite monkey theorem. This looks kind of nicer. Do you know if there is an easy way to change our template as well? - Mdd 14:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * This discussion is tempory proceeding on the WikiProject Systems talk page

Further Assessment of Systems science articles - May 2008
Jiuguang Wang has recently brought a lot of articles in the field of control theory under the scope of this WikiProject, by tagging them with the tag on the articles talkpage. In response I assessed these about 100 articles and made some wikification here and there.

Now I think some further assessment of Systems science articles is possible of: The first option means a few hunderd articles, the second a few thousand. I will begin with the first option and will leave the second option for the moment. -- Mdd (talk) 13:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) All articles within the different fields of systems science.
 * 2) All systems discribed in Wikipedia.


 * I started tagging all (related) articles in the:
 * Category:Cybernetics and Category:Systems theory
 * Category:Chaos theory and Category:Self-organization
 * Category:Dynamical systems and Category:Non-linear systems
 * And added about 260 extra articles. -- Mdd (talk) 21:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I continued with all (related) articles in the:
 * Category:Operations research
 * -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Systems Reassessment
The update of the WikiProject Systems article template will require and reassessment of all WikiProject Systems articles.

This reassessment can be related to the new "Overview of the field of Systems science".
 * All fields mentioned here can be assessed as top-importance
 * All subfields mentioned can be assessed as high-importance

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 20:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Further assessment and reassessment
I started some reassessment here and there to check if the new assessment system works. More structured assessment have been done in the following items:

I created a new
 * Category:Cat-Class Systems articles but the Category:Systems category pages already exits
 * Category:List-Class Systems articles

And I started assessing Systems lists from here. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 12:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Category:List-Class Systems articles
I assessed all (known to me) lists in the field of systems and systems science using the WikiProject Systems/List of systems.

As a result the Category:List-Class Systems articles now lists about 63 pages.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 15:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Updating the to a  with fields - May 2008
The current WikiProject Systems Assessment doens't make a difference in fields. Now I think this assessment can be updated with an extra "Field dimension", similair as the assessment in the WikiProject Mathematics, see here.

The fields that could be divided are: -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 11:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Chaos theory
 * Cybernetics
 * Control theory
 * Dynamical systems
 * Operations research
 * Scientific modeling
 * Systems biology
 * Systems ecology
 * Systems engineering
 * Systems psychology
 * Systems theory

A start
This change will require an update of the whole WikiProject assessment structure. As a start a created the Template:WP SYS 1.0 from the Template:WP MATH 1.0 as example.

Template:WP SYS 1.0

This template gives a first impression of all the new things to be done. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 12:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I continued with the mayor page:
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0


 * And with some other pages:
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Assessment
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Grading scheme
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Importance
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Fields
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Structure
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Sys rating
 * And a few dozend others.
 * There are maybe still a few dozend articles to go here.
 * -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 15:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

A new Sys rating template
I also started developing a new Sys rating template -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 13:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Further comments:

Still serious attention is needed in:
 * Template:Sys rating

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 15:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Structure
Today I tryed to complete the necessary WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Structure. The things still missing at the moment are:

Each of these pages, except for the Mathematicians page, has /Top, /High, /Mid, /Low and /Unassessed subpages which list the articles in that field with the given importance (or priority) rating.
 * Additional ratings fields
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Theorems and conjectures
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/History
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Mathematicians
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Vital articles


 * Articles by quality pages
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles


 * General templates used by the project
 * Template:Systems scientist data


 * Technical project templates
 * WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Mathematician row format

Now I think these pages are not really necessary to get the thing running. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Neural network related articles in WikiProject Systems - May 2008

 * The beginning here is copied from the User talk:Mdd page

Hi Marcel - I was reading artificial neural network and I noticed that none of the neural network related articles belong in a WikiProject - do you think it is appropriate to add them to WikiProject Systems? They would fall into intelligent control, naturally, but a lot of the topics under neural networks isn't particularly control-related (like the mathematics based optimization articles). --Jiuguang Wang (talk) 00:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for asking. With the further assessment of WikiProject Systems I recently ran into similair cases, for example the Category:Artificial intelligence and the Category:Ergonomics. Now you are talking about the articles in the Category:Neural networks, which I allready mentioned above as a category in the field of cybernetics. Now first some a few general things:


 * There is a general problem here where to draw the line or boundaries of the WikiProject Systems, the field of Systems science and all particulair fields of systems science, like control theory and cybernetics. Now there are a few guidelines:
 * All assessment is part of the Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment, and the Version 1.0 Editorial Team wants to assess all articles in Wikipedia.
 * The WikiProject Systems have to consider all related articles and categories.
 * The most effective way is to consider the categories one at the time, instead of articles.
 * When categories are not assessed yet, there are three things that can be done:
 * Bring them (partly) under the WikiProject Systems
 * Bring them (partly) under an other related WikiProject.
 * Initiated a WikiProject for that particulair field.
 * Now the third option is for the long run. What we can do is look at the related categories in the field of control theory, because you are (here) the expert in that field.


 * Now in the field of control theory there are a few categories to consider:
 * Category:Embedded systems - (not yet done or not at all)
 * Category:Automation - (not yet or not at all) - 110 articles and more
 * Category:Control devices - done (only some)
 * Category:Filter theory - (not yet/not at all/or only some) - 116 articles
 * Category:Neural networks - (not yet or not)


 * Now you have asked me if the artificial neural network related articles should be assessed to the WikiProject Systems? My answer is that we should consider the whole category. In return I want to ask you, if you think the above 5 categories should be assessed in the field of control theory of the WikiProject Systems or maybe in some other WikiProjects? -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 12:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * P.S. You must have noticed I reassessed a lot of articles in the field of control theory. As a result I raised the importance of almost all articles with one step, because of the introduction of the field of control theory!?


 * I'm rather conflicted at the moment. I definitely think artificial intelligence and computational intelligence should have a separate WikiProject (which include Category:Neural networks)...but that's a more long time goal, as you said. I'd have to think about the remaining four categories. --Jiuguang Wang (talk) 13:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Good thinking. As a start we can make artificial intelligence a separate field within the Wikiproject Systems. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Part of the new Assessment structure removed - June 2008
I removed the 144 titles from wikipedia and from your watchlist):

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 23:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class mathematics articles (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/defn (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class page format (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class page format linked (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class page format transcluded (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class subpage format (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class table row format (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class table row header (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/defn (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/defn (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/defn (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/FA-Class Systems articles (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/FA-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Field page format linked (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Field page format transcluded (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Field subpage format (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Fields (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Operations research (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Operations research/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Operations research/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Operations research/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Operations research/defn (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/defn (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Stub-Class Systems articles (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/defn (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/defn (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/defn (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/defn (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/defn (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table row format (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table row format/doc (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table row format long (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table row header (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table row header long (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Visualization (Talk)

Further Assessment of the fields of Systems science - May 2008
Around 15 May an initiative has started to reassess and further assess all articles in the ten different fields of systems science.

The field of chaos theory
I further assessed and reassessed (as far a I can se now) all articles in the field of chaos theory. I hereby assessed the folowing 5 categories:
 * Category:Chaos theory - done 27 articles
 * Category:Chaos theorists - done 21 articles
 * Category:Chaotic maps - done 28 articles
 * Category:Fractals - done 76 articles
 * Category:Chaotic maps - done 28 articles
 * Category:Fractal curves - done 15 articles

I didn't assess the folowing 3/4 categories, for different reasons:
 * Category:Images of fractals and Category:Elliptic function images: these should be moved to commons
 * Category:Non-linear systems: will be assessed under the field of Dynamical systems, because not all non-lineair systems are chaotic.
 * Category:Self-organization: will be assessed under the field of systems theory, because this concernes a general basic issue which is will be gathered under systems theory.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * In total
 * 195 articles have been tagged
 * -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The field of cybernetics
I reassessed most articles in the
 * Category:Cybernetics - done(101 articles (not all in the field of cybernetics))
 * Category:Cyberneticists - done (43 articles (not all in the field of cybernetics))
 * Category:Biocybernetics - done (9 articles)

Multiple articles in the category cybernetics are also categorised in the systems theory and control theory categories. Of those articles I will assessed the more general articles in thw field of systems theory, and the more technical and mathematical articles in field of control theory.

Now I am not so sure about the other subcategories.
 * Category:Artificial intelligence -- 31 subcategories, 143 articles
 * Category:Artificial intelligence researchers -- 130 articles


 * Category:Artificial life -- 40 articles
 * Category:Emergence -- 11 articles
 * Category:Evolutionary algorithms -- 74 articles
 * Category:Artificial life models -- 5 articles
 * Category:Researchers of artificial life -- 10 articles
 * Category:Virtual toys -- 77 articles
 * Category:Computational neuroscience -- 240 articles


 * Category:Control engineering -- see control theory
 * Category:Control theory -- see control theory

I don't think these categories could be seen as part of the field of cybernetics.
 * Category:Cyborgs - 310 articles, almost all (303) ficional cyborgs
 * Category:Emergence - 188 articles, almost all (177) emergent gameplay
 * Category:Neural networks
 * Category:Self-organization
 * Category:Semiotics
 * Category:Superorganisms

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 18:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * At the moment:
 * In total some 150 articles have been tagged.
 * Over one thousand articles in the other categories.
 * -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The field of control theory
I will continu with the field of control theory, with:
 * Category:Control theory - done (159 articles)
 * Category:Classical control - done (5 articles)


 * Category:Control engineering - done (28 articles)
 * Category:Applications of control engineering - done (8 articles)
 * Category:Power control - done (2 articles)
 * Category:Electrical power control - done (17 articles)
 * Category:Mechanical power control - done (some 12 out of 24)
 * Category:Temperature control - done (5 articles)
 * Category:Embedded systems - none
 * Category:Automation - (not yet or not at all) - 110 articles and more
 * Category:Control devices - done (some)


 * Category:Control theorists - done (50 articles)
 * Category:Filter theory (not yet/not at all/or only some) - 116 articles

In this field of control theory there is a split the more mathematical control theory and the more practical control engineering. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 13:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * At the moment in total:
 * Some 286 articles in the field of control theory have been tagged.
 * The category filter theory offers an other 116 articles
 * The category automation offers some 110 and more articles.
 * The question here is how far I should go. Now I have to take into consideration that the Version 1.0 Editorial Team wants to tag all articles. Since the category filter theory and category automation are in no other WikiProject three things can be done.
 * Bring them (partly) under the WikiProject Systems
 * Bring them (partly) under an other WikiProject, for example WikiProject Robotics
 * Start a new WikiProject Automation.
 * -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The field of dynamical systems
The structure of the field
 * Category:Dynamical systems - done (about 146 articles)
 * Category:Astronomical dynamical systems -- the field of astronomy
 * Category:Bifurcation theory - done (about 14 articles)
 * Category:Chaos theory -- the field of chaos theory
 * Category:Chaotic maps -- the field of chaos theory
 * Category:Control engineering -- the field of control theory
 * Category:Critical phenomena - the field of physics
 * Category:Phase changes - the field of physics and chemistry
 * Category:Renormalization group - the field of physics
 * Category:Electrodynamics - the field of physics
 * Category:Entropy - the field of physics
 * Category:Entropy and information - the field of information theory
 * Category:Ergodic theory - done (about 28 articles)
 * Category:Fixed points - the field of mathematics
 * Category:Hamiltonian mechanics - the field of physics
 * Category:Limit sets - done (about 18 articles)
 * Category:Non-equilibrium thermodynamics - the field of thermodynamics
 * Category:Non-linear systems - done (21 articles)
 * Category:Oscillation - done (4 articles)
 * Category:Random dynamical systems - done (5 articles)
 * Category:Self-organization - the field of systems theory
 * Category:Stability theory - done (12 articles)
 * Category:Thermodynamics - the field of thermodynamics
 * Category:Waves - the field of physics

This structure shows: -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The interdiscplinairy scope of dynamical systems between systems sciences and natural sciences
 * About 6 categories to assess: Dynamical systems, Bifurcation theory, Ergodic theory, Limit sets, Non-linear systems, Random dynamical systems & Stability theory
 * In total about 248 articles to assess in the field of dynamical systems.


 * First part done here -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Second part done -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The field of operations research
The structure of the field, seen from the category:operations research:


 * Category:Operations research -- done (88 articles)
 * Category:Constraint satisfaction -- 37 articles
 * Category:Decision theory -- 131 articles
 * Category:Decision trees -- 11 articles
 * Category:Probability theory -- field of mathematics: 7 subcategories + 274 articles
 * Category:Utility -- 22 articles
 * Category:Voting -- 6 articles
 * Category:Voting theory -- 35 articles
 * Category:Voting system criteria -- 21 articles
 * Category:Voting systems -- Field of voting systems: 14 subcategories + 54 articles
 * Category:Voting theorists -- 14 articles
 * Category:John von Neumann Theory Prize winners -- 17 articles
 * Category:Management science -- 3 articles
 * Category:Network flow -- 11 articles
 * Category:Operations researchers -- 54 articles
 * Category:Optimization -- field of mathematics: 7 subcategories + 140 articles
 * Category:Optimization algorithms -- 84 articles
 * Category:Combinatorial optimization -- 19 articles
 * Category:Computational complexity theory -- field of Computational complexity theory: 7 subcategories + 105 articles
 * Category:Dynamic programming -- 29 articles
 * Category:Evolutionary algorithms -- 27 articles
 * Category:Genetic algorithms -- 31 articles
 * Category:Genetic programming -- 13 articles
 * Category:Interactive evolutionary computation -- 3 articles
 * Category:Scheduling (computing) -- 11 articles
 * Category:Disk scheduling algorithms -- 9 articles
 * Category:Job scheduling -- 35 articles
 * Category:Scheduling algorithms -- 49 articles

Now in total, if we skipp the Then in total about 770 articles remain here.
 * field of Probability theory -- field of mathematics:
 * field of voting systems
 * field of Computational complexity theory

The question off cause is where to draw the line. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 19:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Overall
In total in the fields: In total about 967 articles now reassessed -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 00:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Chaos theory -- 195 articles
 * Cybernetics -- 150 articles
 * Control theory -- 286 articles
 * Dynamical systems -- about 248 articles
 * Operations research -- done about 88 out of 770
 * Scientific modeling
 * Systems biology
 * Systems ecology
 * Systems engineering
 * Systems psychology
 * Systems theory

Two or more fields
I wonder if there should be two or even more fields of systems science defined here: A problem here is, that there aren't any overview articles here (yet).
 * Computer systems theory around computersystems
 * Computational complexity theory -- a field of informatics
 * Information systems theory around the information systems article
 * Social systems theory around systems theory in the social sciences, see Category:Social systems.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC) - 17:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

New assessment structure with fields - July 2008
The assessment structure have been changed. Now 13 fields have been introduced, see Category:Systems articles by fields.
 * Chaos theory - 167 pages are in this category
 * Cybernetics - 107 pages are in this category
 * Control theory - 259 pages are in this category
 * Dynamical systems - 193 pages are in this category
 * Operations research - 118 pages are in this category
 * Scientific modeling - 6 pages are in this category
 * Systems - 50 pages are in this category
 * Systems biology - 4 pages are in this category
 * Systems ecology - 3 pages are in this category
 * Systems engineering - 8 pages are in this category
 * Systems psychology - 43 pages are in this category
 * Systems theory - 50 pages are in this category
 * Visualization - 45 pages are in this category

In total now 1053 articles with fields in the categories.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 11:37, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
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Is this project also about systems engineering? What is the distinction between systems engineering and systems science?
Many of the members of this project present themselves as into systems engineering. Should that subject be included in the project?

A find the two templates reflecting these two areas strange. In my world, systems engineering was developed within the electrical engineering tradition, while systems science has its origin in a more academic tradition, closer to social sciences and computer science. A large portion of the content mentioned in the "Systems and systems science" template is about what I would call systems engineering topics, such as signal processing, control systems and cybernetics. These are rather applied electrical engineering topics, but they are presented as "theoretical topics" in the template. On the other hand, they are missing in the Systems engineering template. Systems engineering is to my understanding also highly related to communication systems engineering, electronic system level design and computer engineering topics such as computer architecture. These are also missing, while non-engineering topics (business and management topics), which I would consider closer to systems science, are included.

Is it me or the templates that are confusing things?

Mange01 (talk) 21:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes. Systems engineering is included in this project. Almost two years ago after starting this project we also tried to start a WikiProject Systems Engineering Initiative, but this stayed an initiative. We did rewrite the System engineering article.


 * Now I don't share your concern that a large portion of the "Systems and systems science" is about systems engineering. The template lists about 70-80 items. I don't think that many really relate to systems engineering.


 * I also don't share your concern about the items missing in the systems engineering template:
 * communication systems engineering, this is just a redirect which would never be listed in a template
 * electronic system level design, this is also a redirect to just a stub article, hardly central to systems engineering
 * Now computer engineering and computer architecture are not listed, but software engineering and I think this is more related.


 * I am also not sure systems engineering and systems science have two different roots. If you for example read A. Wayne Wymore's Autobiographical Retrospectives, he is telling about the excitement about systems thinking end 1950s. In my perception the excitement about systems thinking and the General Systems movement triggered many of the development of the systems sciences. Systems engineering was be further developed within the electrical engineering tradition, but I don't think it developed independently. But if you have other sources about the history of both I would love to hear that. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Overview of the field of Systems science - April 2008
I added the following overview of systems science to the List of academic disciplines today. -- Mdd (talk) 12:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Systems science (version 0 (24.02.08))

 * Chaos theory
 * Complex systems
 * Complexity theory
 * Cybernetics
 * Biocybernetics
 * Engineering cybernetics
 * Management cybernetics
 * Medical cybernetics
 * New Cybernetics
 * Second-order cybernetics
 * Control theory
 * Affect control theory
 * Control engineering
 * Control systems
 * Dynamical systems
 * Perceptual control theory


 * Operations research
 * Systems biology
 * Computational systems biology
 * Synthetic biology
 * Systems immunology
 * Systems dynamics
 * Social dynamics
 * Systems ecology
 * Ecosystem ecology
 * Systems engineering
 * Biological systems engineering
 * Earth systems engineering and management
 * Enterprise systems engineering
 * Systems analysis


 * Systems psychology
 * Ergonomics
 * Family systems theory
 * Systemic therapy
 * Systems theory
 * Biochemical systems theory
 * Ecological systems theory
 * Developmental systems theory
 * General systems theory
 * Living systems theory
 * LTI system theory
 * Sociotechnical systems theory
 * Mathematical system theory
 * World-systems theory

Further comments
If any one have any more suggestions please let me know. -- Mdd (talk) 12:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

1: A separate Dynamical systems theory section
I think the overview (version 0) should be update with a separate Dynamical systems theory section. Now there are three options here:


 * A. A section called Dynamical systems theory
 * Dynamical systems theory
 * Dynamical systems


 * B. A section called Mathematical system theory.
 * Mathematical system theory
 * Dynamical systems
 * Dynamical systems theory

The problem here is that Mathematical system theory has no article of its own at the moment.


 * C. A section named Dynamical systems
 * Dynamical systems
 * Dynamical systems theory
 * Mathematical system theory

-- (Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC))

2: Complexity theory removed
Complexity theory could and or should be removed because I it is not a separate field. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 19:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

3: Systems dynamics located under Operations research
Systems dynamics and Social dynamics can be located under Operations research -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

4: (Two) more fields
Two more fields are suggested: The problem here is, that there aren't any overview articles here (yet). -- 20:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Information systems theory around the information systems article... or information systems science or computer systems theory..!?
 * Social systems theory around systems theory in the social scieces.

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