Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/24 task force/Images

Discussion is required to determine guidelines for our articles, how many images we will use in our articles, and related image issues. At the moment we do have an excess of images, I feel there needs to be a balance between no images and too many images. This will be a detailed discussion, and the results will likely be implemented into our future project Manual Of Style. All who have opinions are welcome. Steve Crossin  (contact)  12:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify my view here, I do think that we do have an excess of images in the project, however I do think that a balance can be met between too many images and no images. Steve Crossin   (contact)  12:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This entire endeavor strikes me as a bit silly. A local consensus of editors doesn't really have the sway to justify overriding the carefully brokered compromises at the non-free policy's talkpage with arbitrary criteria on their own walled garden of pages (assuming their final findings deviate from the global status quo, of course). I suggest that everybody jump over to WT:F and help engender a revisiting of the old discussions there. east. 718 at 15:15, July 6, 2008
 * East, we did discuss this on IRC, and I did mention that this was merely a first step. The project has never had a discussion on fair use images, and I think we should be able to at least discuss in our project space the issues we have with images. We have multiple issues and directly going to WT:F may be unnecessary. It's possible that amongst us, we could come to an arrangment that would already meet the WP:NFCC. We do require time to discuss this, so I'd respectfully ask that we be allowed to discuss project matters within project space, and that when we are seeking advice about fair use images, that we will go to the appropriate discussion page. This page isn't an attempt to impose a consensus above what is established at WT:F, more a place to discuss the project's views on this matter. Respectfully, -- Steve Crossin   (contact)  15:22, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi, East--could you explain your concern in more detail? The image you attempted to remove was actually quite significant, although it may not seem to be for someone who doesn't know the show.  The shot of the sink was the character's introductory scene, which was specifically praised in The New York Times as an example of why this character was the breakout figure of an Emmy-winning season.  If there are sitewide fair use conventions that aren't being followed strictly enough at this probject, please explain the ways that WikiProject 24 is at variance with that policy so it can become more compliant.  I ask that you move forward collaboratively with the editors of this project: Steve has a good sense of which images are the most relevant to the articles.  Durova Charge! 16:11, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As I was checking the veracity of the fair use rationales on 24 images for Steve, my concern was drawn to the fact that were often a number of unnecessary images being used in a single article to represent rather mundane events (in contravention of WP:FUC, points 3a and 8). As I do whenever I spot this, I removed several images from five articles and paid it no second thought -- I especially didn't expect it to be the catalyst for a big centralized discussion! :o I certainly don't know whether the 24 articles have a systematic problem with non-free criteria compliance, but am glad to see that investigation and if necessary, resolution, is the path this discussion is taking, rather than the "grab the pitchforks, we're beating the free culture fanboys back" mentality that is all too common (perhaps my cynicism betrays me...). Regarding the Martha Logan image of her being dunked in water, I know it is significant because Steve explained to me how it was. However, the article on her didn't have anything on the importance of the event, the nuances regarding makeup, etc. that was detailed in the NYT piece. Such commentary is necessary to justify the use of non-free media in a context outside of simple identification. east. 718 at 01:29, July 8, 2008
 * Thanks Durova. While I do think that some images probably don't meet criteria 8, I do know that every single image in the 24 WikiProject does have a correct non-free rationale (you told me so yourself, East). I don't want this to turn into a battle, but I do feel that our project deserves the courtesy that every other WikiProject receives. This project has been active since April, and has accomplished a lot since then. All we are asking is for time to discuss amongst the project our guidelines for how we will use images, and in what circumstances will non-free images be used. Once the project has discussed this, if necessary, it may be discussed at WT:F. The project makes no attempt to break copyright, however we do deserve the same right that every project has to be allowed to discuss project issues amongst us. This is an issue, so please, let us discuss it. Steve Crossin   (contact)  16:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The images I think should be limited to identifying the characters. Screenshots should be used to illustrated the structure of the show and little else. (real-time, split-screen etc) мirаgeinred سَراب ٭  (talk) 00:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to agree that some articles have went overboard with images. Aaron Pierce for example has way too many and only one of those pictures (where he's being tortured in season 5) is notable. SeanMooney (talk) 04:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, it's surprising to see so many people become involved. Yes, I share a few concerns about the extent of fair use images.  I thought that particular image of the sink was significant because of its importance in establishing character and in the New York Times analysis.  You're right; probably ought to be made explicit within the fair use rationale on the image page itself.  Regarding overall proportion of fair use images I'll defer to the en:wiki admins--we don't host fair use over on Commons.  Best regards,  Durova Charge! 04:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've never totally understood the argument that all images have to be free content. Sometimes, as with fictional characters, there is no way to get a free non-copyright picture because the character doesn't exist. We should use images to picture the character and also if there are times where something notable happens, for example, Logan being stabbed, then we should use that also.--Lan Di (talk) 04:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think there's no doubt it would be extremely hard to get free images for this TV show, in universe images and screenshots it would be impossible to get free images, for obvious reasons. I do think that at some point when writing our Manual Of Style something should be added about the use of images. Steve Crossin   (contact)  04:16, 11 July 2008 (UTC)