Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Avatar: The Last Airbender task force/archive1

Discussion on "content guidelines"
I'm pretty content with how the content guidelines are currently constructed, but there's always room for improvement. As of right now, they're all pretty much based on estalished Wikipedia policies/guidelines/essays, but we can get more specific to the show if need be, or include more Wikipedia info. Any ideas how to make these guidelines better? Prototime 05:49, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Speculations
Where exactly are we drawing the line on this? I realize all shipping is off but other small things are everywhere. Here are examples: YuYan Archers using Firebending Koh and Lu Ten's face Ty Lee looking like an airbender H2P 18:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

There is indeed numerous instances of this, unfortunately. These theories all violate official Wikipedia policy on having only verifiable information. One of the major ways this WikiProject can serve to better all articles related to the show is by removing these speculative statements and ensuring that they stay off the pages. Prototime 21:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Tense
Something which needs to be clarified is tense. Right now, it's very inconsistent. MOF 09:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think all articles should be written in present tense. I learned that all book reports and such should be written in present tense, since the work of literature/art still exists today.  So when describing any episode, it's always "Aang does" and not "Aang did."  I would use past tense only when describing a flashback in an episode, because that is deliberately an event in the past (from the current frame of reference).
 * The "History" sections for all character pages could possibly be written in present tense, too. I've helped to write Toph's history in present tense, since her story is mostly told in the present-time reference of the series.  I haven't read through Zuko's history yet; it makes sense to do his past tense, since a lot of it happened before the start of the series, but with more and more flashbacks being aired, you could possibly shift the frame of reference so that his history could be written in present tense (and not sound awkward).  --Crisu 15:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Reading in present tense is weird and always will be weird. And how do we know the events of the show didn't happen hundreds of years ago?H2P 21:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that at least things which happened before the first episode of the show need to be in past tense. As far as events which happen during the episodes go, I'm not so sure. We rather need to do away with these blow-by-blow synopses anyway. If we had a brief overview of the episode, rather than every little event, it would seem only natural to write in past tense. As it is now, however, either way can really be argued for or against. MOF 21:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, in line with Wikipedia's guidelines regarding writing articles about fiction, I tend to write everything almost exclusively in present tense. The rewrite of Zuko's history that I'm working on is also in present tense because I'm putting it in chronological order and thus changing the frame of reference to support present tense. This is because I agree with the sentiment that fiction exists in perpetual present tense, in other words, by virtue of the fact that it never happened, it's better referred to as if it is always in the process of happening since whenever someone new experiences the fiction, it is. Raceberry 17:07, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree; perpetual present tense is defined in the Wikipedia guidelines as the correct tense to use for works of fiction (and it makes sense intuitively since it really hasn't ever truly happened), and I feel we should stick with Wikipedia guidelines on the issue. Prototime 18:53, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Are we in agreement, then, that perpetual present tense should be included as a content guideline? Prototime 18:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

And in the beginning...
Hey folks, thanks for your interest in this WikiProject. The main WikiProject page still has a little way to go, but the most important sections (in my opinion, anyway) of the main WikiProject page are all ready up and I'd love to hear your thoughts on what we have so far and what we could potentially have in the future. What should our focus be? What would you like your involvement to be? Say anything... ideas, problems, questions, hate-messages (hah)... what do you think? Let's get a good discussion going! And don't forget to add yourself to the members list.

Oh, and if anyone would like to help complete the WikiProject main page (i.e., help create some templates for the WikiProject, create the /articles subpage, etc.), that'd be great too. :) Prototime 19:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm done with my exams as of Thursday. At which time I will probably be using the sandbox until I get a good hang of everything. But I have nothing better to do so when I figure out what to do I'll get to work H2P 05:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm glad to join! I think the first thing that needs to be done is to remove all of the cleanup tags from the Season One episodes (the hard way of course :) ).  The "adoption" idea will probably work wonders here.  I've actually started on the episode The Blue Spirit before this project began, and I still need to finish it up.   PCEevee   talk  01:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems things have really gotten rolling in my absence... excellent. Let's keep it up! Prototime 16:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Image for project banner?
Since the fair use policy prevents us from using any of the obvious ones, does anyone have any ideas for an image to use in the project banner template? Kirill Lokshin 00:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Could the four Chinese characters that appear between "Nickelodeon" and "Avatar" count as a logo?  They have appeared on all three shirts that are in the Nick shop.  It could be called synonymous with the title, but that's just a guess.  I'm not totally sure on that one.   PCEevee   talk  21:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Userbox
I just created a userbox for this, because I see Proto really likes to use them :-P. Feel free to tell me any changes you want done to it. Also, I got a message aobut licencing of the arrow head pic. Does anyone know how to do that? I don't want to read that whole page. H2P 04:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Skrew it, I just changed the picture


 * There, I went userbox happy. Spice up your page.  I'm going to bed. H2P 06:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The images are still fair-use, so having them in a template will bring the copyright police down on our heads rather quickly ;-) Kirill Lokshin 13:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've standardized the formatting on all the userboxes and made corresponding categories. Hope it all works out.  --Crisu 15:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok I'm confused by what you mean by the fair-use policy? If I got the images from wikipedia aren't they avaliable? H2P 19:44, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The long description is here; the short answer is that images that aren't public domain or available under a free license (things like TV sreenshots, in our case) can only be used in articles, not in templates or on user pages. Kirill Lokshin 19:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * So that means the two with screenshots are in trouble but the ones with the elements are open? H2P 20:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Basically. (Although I'm not entirely sure about the element images; while the image page says they've been released into the public domain, I'm not sure where they come from.  They do look a bit like cropped screenshots of some sort as well.) Kirill Lokshin 22:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The userboxes look great, H2P; well done!

When I get more time, I'll see if I can't find any eligible images. Prototime 16:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Q about The Blue Spirit episode
Would anybody mind looking at the The Blue Spirit article that I have been working on and review it in general? I just want to know where to go from here. PCEevee  talk  21:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Just needs some general neatness changes. You've got some loose sentences not with any paragraphs. Just as a quick glance it looks fine. Eban 21:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Tagging Article Ratings
Just curious as to who it is that rates these articles. Is it this project and we go off the guidelines set by Wiki, or is it someone else? H2P 13:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It's done by the project. I went through yesterday and tagged all the relevant articles I could find; but since I went through them rather rapidly, some of the ratings might be off, so feel free to adjust them as needed. Kirill Lokshin 13:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * This is a great idea to incorporate. Hopefully it'll give people a good sense of just how much work is involved to bring these pages up to par with the rest of Wikipedia. Prototime 16:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh it's not that much work. Just, you know, some where around 55 articles once we make our own.  But, you know, who needs a summer break anyway H2P 18:08, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Page Designs
I know there will be more page design questions, so lets group them Anyway, my question was about quote from the episodes. I plan on working on this after getting the creatures page list. I want to know what should be the minimum number of quotes per episode... and the maximum (I'm looking at you Bitter Work *shakes fist*) H2P 18:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The theoretical answer is that anything more than a handful of quotes (which should be worked into the text, rather than left sitting in a separate "Quotes" section) needs to be moved to WikiQuote. I'm not sure how practical doing this in the near future would be, though, considering how much of the material in those articles is just quotes.  Kirill Lokshin 18:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm gonna go ahead and put a max of 5 quotes that are actually meaningful to the the full story or quotes the help to define characters. H2P 01:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok before I go on a quote creating binge, should I? Should we have a seperate Quotes section or should we just build all quotes into the synopsis? H2P 07:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd try to work them into the synopsis (possibly using cquote for some of the more prominent ones). If/when the articles start getting proper referencing footnotes, additional quotes can be added there, as well. Kirill Lokshin 12:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Picture size: We need a standard for the Avatar info boxes. I'm seeing a range of numbers especially in newer episodes H2P 05:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm about to do something about that, but I'm not too sure which size to make them. I was think 285 since that's the max before it will stretch the infobox. redsparta 01:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * As long as it doesn't hinder the page, I think the bigger the better. We might also want to look into putting a few more pictures on the episode listings, similar to The Swamp's page design.H2P 05:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I just started work on that as well, although help is always appreciated. I have added (a) picture(s) to Avatar Roku (Winter Solstice, Part 2), The Blind Bandit, The Waterbending Master, as well as The Library (Avatar: The Last Airbender episode). --Redsparta 17:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Locations: I planned on starting up the Spirit World (Avatar: The Last Airbender) soon. I wanted to model it after the four nations pages, but they lack symmetry. I think we should tackle that idea and look into how we organize them. I know somewhere else we were debating how to organize the character pages to be symmetrical, so I think we need to do the same for the nations pages. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 08:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * what sorts of things would be included? is there a specific outline to follow? (unsigned)
 * Hey guys, I've gone ahead and started up a discussion about structural guidelines for the nations at the bottom of the page. –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 01:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

New Article
I went ahead and made a seperate page for Princess Azula, though I've not yet finished correcting all the existing links, nor have I removed her from the Major Characters page. Eban 21:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The Spirit World (Avatar: The Last Airbender) page is up and running. Needs a LOT of fixes and with school starting I just don't have the time to do right now, sorry. Feel free to add in your input. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 05:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Zuko's Age
Ok, I'm tired of the constant revision wars. I want proof of his age as said by the show. Numbers do not matter because while my sister and I are three years apart almost all year, there is a three month period where we are only two years apart. H2P 05:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The only proof we have is located in the first episode, when Iroh comments on Zuko's age being 16.  Thus, until something contradicts that, that's what the age should remain. Prototime 20:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The person who keeps changing the age back to 16 refuses to listen to reason and says that until we "prove" that he's 16 still, she won't stop. Raceberry 14:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But we don't have to prove anything, we're going off the information the show gives us. The show hasn't given us any age but 16 and we have no evidence that he would of had a birthday since. H2P 18:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I told her. Raceberry 19:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

What we know:
 * As of Avatar State, it's been 3 years since the Agni Kai.
 * The Storm and no other episode gives us info on the Agni Kai age.
 * Analogy: His birthday is October 1st. Let's just say he was 14 during the Agni Kai which took place on June 1st.  As of June 1st when the 3 year anniversary would come about, he'd still be 16 for another 4 months.
 * Nick has told us that he is 16 and we should only go off what we know.
 * Unfourtantly, basic math and common sense dosen't go well often here. until we get a citation, or some epidsodic proof, someone's gonna keep reverting. Pacific Coast Highway (blah • typa-typa) 23:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad this debate is now over with... Prototime 06:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Citations needed
I'm beginning to go through and add the Citation needed template to statements in articles needing it, since there are currently.... none, and it's really needed. I'd recommend everyone doing the same to any statement they come across that looks like it needs it. Prototime 01:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I gotta find those 2 min commercials about the bending styles and their influences. H2P 05:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Will this work? http://www.nicksplat.com/Whatsup/200508/31000118.html H2P 05:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Those two minute commercials are on Nick.com. They are:  waterbending, earthbending, firebending, airbending   PCEevee   talk  11:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Working on Zuko
Okay, I did a lot of work on Zuko. Most of it was in the Relationships (not Family) section. I pretty much tried to cite the major/significant interactions he has with each person in the context of how it relates to his specific relationship with them. Before I felt like they were mostly a mish-mash of relevant and irrelevant information, not terribly well-expressed and sometimes with what I felt to be very egregious omissions. I was pretty much trying to make each section adhere to its implied purpose: to elucidate on the nature of the particular relationship he has with each character. They could very possibly be further wikified and I tried to be as concise as possible without giving any relationships the shaft. Any thoughts are welcome since I more or less want to do the same thing in the Family section.

I also have my eye on his history which I have a real jones to put in chronological order since information revealed in season one (such as things from The Storm) has been fully integrated into that section, but information from season two (like things from Zuko Alone) seem much more tacked on. I just think it would be an easier read and better serve its purpose if it didn't jump around so much. Plus, the Personality section contains a lot of redundant information that honestly has nothing to do with his personality, really. Raceberry 19:15, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I haven't read the entire page, but I really like what you've done with the parts I have read, and I support your further efforts. Maybe we can make Zuko a model page for what this WikiProject is aiming for in article quality, once article quality is complete.  I'll be sure to offer some other comments when I have time to fully critique the article. Prototime 04:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Figuring out a style for the articles, so to speak, is what I was trying to do when I started working on it because I feel like having some uniformity and clarity of purpose with the character pages is a great starting place for upping their general quality. I'll probably be tackling the history and personality today. Raceberry 10:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Media information page?
Is it usual for television programs to have their own seperate "media information" pages? I haven't seen it for other series on Wiki, nor in the guidelines, though I may be missing something. It seems to me like most of the info on the page we have belongs on the main page, unless I'm in error about the standards held for this sort of thing. Prototime 04:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The main article was getting way too long, in my opinion, and I followed the example on Cardcaptor Sakura and Cardcaptor Sakura media information, where I first saw such a division. I guess I never double-checked the actual standards about the procedure.. but it seems a worthwhile split, since a "media" article can potentially contain a lot of relevant content.
 * Though I've read a discussion recently that argued how article length is becoming less important with the increasing use of broadband. Add in the Table of Contents for articles, and you have an easy navigation.  So.. if it's supposed to be merged back, then okay.  I just thought it'd be tidier this way.  x.x  --Crisu 05:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I was hoping someone could bring some further insight into this, but since not I guess I'll poke around a bit and see what I can find... it's not that I hate the idea or anything, it just struck me as a little bit odd since I hadn't really seen it used elsewhere (though obviously there is at least one example, and it does look pretty extensive--way too much info for a main page probably). I'll see what I can find! Prototime 05:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Organizationally, I think it makes sense to divide the article a bit. Heck, we could integrate every episode page and every character information into the main page, but it just becomes too heavy then. Sure, the page filesize isn't significant, but it's still clumsy and confusing. MOF 05:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Character quotes?
Character quotes have been added to the top of all of the character pages lately, but I'm not so sure that this fits encyclopedic entries. Any thoughts on this? Prototime 03:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think this ties in with my questions about quotes on the episode pages. Do we want these sites to look like magazine articles or as dictionary pages?  I say we make a Wikiquote page for Avatar and organize it by episode (still a limit of 5), and then remove all the quotes where they aren't necessary.H2P 05:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't hate the quotes at the top of all of the character pages/sections, but I do see how that feels more fansite-y than encyclopedic. I also agree with H2P that since Wikiquote does exist, there's no real reason to just list quotes on any Avatar-related pages unless they're embedded in the article. Raceberry 10:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've felt iffy about them, too. Yes, they're nice and decorative, but I agree that it makes them less encyclopedic.  I could suggest that they be moved to the middle of the article, but that wouldn't be a 100% fix either.  I support the Wikiquote thing, especially since everyone wants to add quotes to all the episode articles.  --Crisu 13:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There's making a page look pretty, and there's making a page look pretty and have information. I have no idea where those cquote thingies fall into. Pacific Coast Highway (blah • typa-typa) 15:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If we want both informative and.. uh.. "pretty".. perhaps an option would be to replace the quotes from the character with a descriptive quote about the character. As a poor example, Zuko's quote could be what Iroh says in The Chase: "His life has recently changed, and he's going through very difficult times. He's trying to figure out who he is, and he went away." That rather describes him quite well. Though I personally think no quote is the best option. MOF 10:08, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree. My thoughts are that despite potentially making pages look "pretty", quote shouldn't be included in encyclopedic entries in that manner; if nothing else, that's what Wikiquote is for.  Quotes seem to be everywhere on Avatar pages (particularly the episode summaries, unfortunately), but for a articles on an animated television series they should really be used sparingly, and they certainly aren't notable enough to be the opening of a page; in addition, their inclusion is based on someone's point of view. Prototime 05:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * So.. move to delete? Is it hard to start a Wikiquote page?  Then if anyone happens to throw in quotes, we'll easy ship them off to the appropriate place.  --Crisu 03:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, there already is a Wikiquote page: Avatar: The Last Airbender MOF 03:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi guys I didn't actually contribute any quotes, I just formatted the ones I found on the pages, I do like the way they look, and the way they instantly define a character so I vote to keep. No reason for us to avoid pleasing aesthetics while maintaining npov. --Basique 15:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I really do not believe that these quotes instantly define a character, for what quote should be included for a character is something that is subjective. For example, some people may think that the quote "The Boulder feels conflicted about fighting a young blind girl" defines the Boulder, "My aura has never been pinker!" defines Ty Lee, and "You must know the pain of losing a first born son... by sacrificing your own!" defines Fire Lord Azulon, but I certainly do not.  Now we could comb through every character's page and democratically decide on what quote "best" defines each character, but besides being impractical, that too is a subjective opinion (assuming a majority vote could even be reached for each character).  Thus, I see these quotes as point of view, and hence things that should be moved to Wikiquote. Prototime 16:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Move to Wikiquote; Pacific Coast Highway (blah • typa-typa) 03:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, didn't know the wikiquote thing was already up and running, I'll get started on moving all those tomorrow... er, today H2P 05:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll start helping in the moves as well. Prototime 18:42, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with removing most of the quotes, but the Iroh ones in the various nation's descriptions (taken, I believe, from the lesson he gave Zuko in Bitter Work) seem appropriate in my opinion, if perhaps requiring qualification. --Fyre2387 18:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Never mind, on a rethink, they'd be more trouble than they're worth.--Fyre2387 19:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah I didn't really want to remove them, that was my favorite scene out of the entire series so far. I did it because I removed the quotes everywhere else. I can't remember, but I think someone else already switched all pages to have a Wikiquote reference. After being on Wikiquote, I've decided not to touch that anymore, it would require minute by minute monitoring to protect from: Incorrect quoting, no much quoting, and unneccary quoting even after I posted a guideline in the talk section. It's things like that that make me wish editing was only allowed for registered members. H2P 20:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Character titles
I'd like to suggest that characters titles be removed from their names--for example, making "Prince Zuko" simply "Zuko", "Admiral Zhao" simply Zhao, etc. This is how many other fictional characters in other series and movies are handled on Wikipedia (i.e. Captain Jean-Luc Picard is a redirect to Jean-Luc Picard), and for a variety of reasons. Besides these titles not being an actual part of the character's names (even if they are commonly referred to it), in many cases their inclusion isn't consistent (i.e., if it's "Avatar Roku", shouldn't it also be "Avatar Aang"?"), it solves any problem concerning rank and promotion (i.e. no confusion over "Commander Zhao" and "Admiral Zhao"), and it in some cases it makes little sense to include them--for example, "Uncle Iroh" is only "Uncle" to Zuko and Azula. On a more minor note, doing so would also serve to make the Avatar template navigational box less wide. Prototime 18:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that this would be best. Especially since, as you've pointed out, it's inconsistent. Raceberry 06:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's pretty hard not to agree to this. MOF 05:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Very good; I will start the process of having the names changed shortly. Prototime 05:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Seems this slipped through the cracks…anyway, I’ve requested a few page moves lately, reminded me these had to be done. Mutiple moves can be requested at once, so that’s what I’ll do. Thought I’d run this here first, both because the discussion was a while ago and I want to make sure I’ve got all the pages. The moves I’m thinking of:


 * Princess Azula→Azula
 * Prince Zuko→Zuko
 * Uncle Iroh→Iroh

Far as I can tell, those are the only ones where the article name actually needs to be changed, any other such changes will be a matter of simple edits.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 05:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Azula's Age
There's now an idiotic editwar going as regards Azula's age. The creators supposedly said that she was "the same age as Sokka" last year at Comicon, based on which she's long-since been listed here as 15. Recently the official Nick site updated with bios for Azula, Mai, Ty Lee, and others and Azula's clearly stated that she is 14. People insist on changing it back to 15 despite documentation. I am getting vexed. Raceberry 04:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Join the club, Firebender has an edit war too. Though your's is taking top billing. -H2P
 * Edit wars... let's try to nip these in the bud before they get too inflamed. If nothing else, tag the page for article dispute, and see if we can't sort them out; when other people are brought to help remedy these debate, I doubt too many of them will deny the facts (which are what both of you are arguing in your respective edit wars). Prototime 06:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

"To-do list" usage
Since usage of the WikiProject's "To-do list" hasn't really skyrocketed, I thought that I should bring this up. There are numerous pages out there relating to the show that need to be fixed (or created), as we all know (or else we wouldn't be having this WikiProject, of course), and if utilized, the To-do list can be a powerful tool to help us in our pursuits because it makes clear to all WikiProject members what pages need work, and what work needs to be done on these pages. As such, I'd like to strongly encourage everyone to identify articles that need work and place them in the "Open Tasks" pane of the To-do list for all to see and hopefully take-up working on. I've gone ahead and moved the To-do list to the top of the WikiProject page to put greater emphasis on it and also make it more noticeable to everyone. (Also, it's fine if you remove the articles that are currently listed; those were mainly just up to be "fillers" to make everyone look good when I first created the WikiProject). The To-do list can be a great help to us; let's not pass it up! Prototime 06:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This is getting annoying. How are we supposed to make these pages better when we are constantly having to babysit them from idiots who keep adding speculation and pointless crap? No wonder Wiki gets knocked down for it's ability to let everyone edit.H2P 17:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

"Recently"?
I've noticed many articles have something along the lines of this, taken from Katara: "The two have been recently at odds with each other after Toph refused to help set up their campsites." Now, I'm of the mind that saying "recently" or some such referring to episodes that recently aired is inappropriate, but I thought I'd get a few opinions here before going through and removing all instances of it.--Fyre2387 18:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * How about we change it to "as of EPISODE". I do agree that the way it's currently worded it makes it sound like a news article rather than a reference. H2P 20:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Creatures
Ok guys, I'm finally gonna start work on the Avatar creatures. Now, per some other talk page, I'm only going to include creatures that don't exist in our world. Now all I gotta know is how you guys want me to organize them. Should it be by book and then by name like the Minor Characters page or does anyone else have an idea? H2P 05:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * About how many unique creatures are there? If not too many, then perhaps just an alphabetical listing.  Otherwise if there are as many of them as there are minor characters, then I'll vote for the book-then-name format.  --Crisu 13:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There are about one-two per episode H2P 19:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I say use an alphabetical listing. Many of the creatures reappear throughout the series, and it seems less useful to split up by the page via season-appearance. Prototime 19:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey guys, I have an update. I sent a message to AvatarSpirit asking if I could use the pictures and descriptions (baring my own rewording) of the unnatural creatures. Here is both my letter and their reply: "Hi How's that for an introduction? My name is Bryan, more notably known as HeirToPendragon pretty much anywhere on the web I go. Including over at wikipedia where I am one of the active members in the Avater: The Last Airbender WikiProject. Currently I am working on building a creatures page over there. However, I don't have 15.5+ hours to devote to cruising every episode of Avatar to find the obscure creatures unique to their world. So I was wondering if I could use your pictures and modified versions of your descriptions over on Wikipedia for these first 31 episodes (which will, undoubtably, be changed until they are unrecognizable). I can give your pictures complete referencing at the bottom of yet another Wikipedia page and cite your descriptions as a reference. I would still have to approve the use of these with the rest of the Wikiproject, but I would want the greenlight from you before suggesting it."

And their reply: "Bryan, Thanks for the email. After conferring with the rest of the staff, we're happy to give you the greenlight to use the creature profiles in the manner you describe below. Best of luck with the rest of the project. I see you guys everyday battling valiantly against ninja editors who insert crap and that can't be fun. I'm sure with the effort you're all putting in, though, the outcome will be an outstanding Wiki article. All the best, Chris (Acastus@ASN)"

Well the acknowledgement is nice of them :-) So now I need the greenlight from you guys. I realize we are having problems with plagarism, but I know to change the wording around and only use it as a backbone to a rewritten description. I will also use the same citation for AvatarSpirit as what is used on the main article. H2P 04:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This all sounds great to me. I'm not an expert in requests to include info from third parties in Wikipedia in this manner but I think that what you have done largely fulfills the requirements (Requesting copyright permission).  -You may want to make the GDFL terms a bit more clear to them, but, I doubt it should be a problem.  Sounds pretty good to me. –Prototime (talk • contribs) 05:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the page is currently up using only the information provided by AvatarSpirit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_creatures_of_Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender I put a list of what needs to be done on the talk page

Future episode information
The user, along with a slew of anonymous users, has recently been going through and making numerous page additions concerning plot information and title information for the next 4 episodes, namely on the pages for Secret of the Fire Nation, Part 1, Secret of the Fire Nation, Part 2, City of Walls and Secrets, List of Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes, and Earth Kingdom, and has created a new page for an apparantly new episode, Tales of Ba Sing Se. However, despite continually asking these users for references, and my best efforts searching for the source of this information on my own, I have found nothing that validates these additions. Can anyone confirm that all of this information is in fact true? Prototime 20:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC) EDIT: It actually wasn't Father's Wish who created "Tales of Ba Sing Se", but Xair.


 * Yeah it's starting to tick me off, but I'm tired of reverting it. I swear I'm abusing the 3RR rule atleast twice a day now. H2P 20:04, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And I just reached my limit on the Earth Kingdom page. H2P 20:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've posted on Father's Wish's talk page asking for his source. Until we have a source, though, the info is a clear violation of WP:Verifiability.--Fyre2387 21:50, 20 July 2006
 * I've also marked three of the upcoming articles with Template: unreferenced. I'd recommend we do this rather than delete unsourced info, at least until Father's Wish has a chance to reply to his talk page.--Fyre2387 22:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Although I did see an entry for Tales of Ba Sing Se on TV.com, the rest sounds like a bunch of speculation. --redsparta 21:56, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not too knowlegable on TV.com workings, but isn't that not a reliable source, as anyone can add information to it? Prototime 02:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure there's a few "editors" that get selected for shows, or so from what I've heard. I've seen some people on AvatarSpirit say that one of the editors for the Avatar: The Last Airbender page has a contact at Nick who supposedly passes along information to him, but right now I'm trying to take some of these titles like "Journey to Ba Sing Se" and "The Drill" with much caution until I see more sources. --redsparta 04:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The following link was added to the List of Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes (Page history) article and is the "proof" for all of these changes, according to 68.74.190.193 (who reffered to my page reverts as "vandalism" on the grounds of this link): "Episode Spoiler straight from Nick.com". But as you can see, that link actually points to a non-existant Distant Horizon forum post, not Nick.com. And after checking (again), I've found that no such spoilers exist on Nick.com anyway. This is really appearing to be vandalism. Prototime 04:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * He "fixed" the link, in that it now goes some where but not to Nick. Now while the pictures on these boards look authentic, I still say that the source is not viable enough to post episode titles and plots when all those could easily change. H2P 05:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with you, and so does WP:RS. The "fixed link" (which, for those of you who don't know, goes to http://distanthorizons.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=trash&action=display&thread=1153376556&page=1) goes to a forum post, which is not a reliable source. Unless he can present published evidence, none of that info belongs on Wikipedia.  Hopefully he'll choose to back down on this (soon). Prototime 06:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This stuff is somewhat interesting, but what ultimately seems to track back to a leak at Nick can't be considered reliable.--Fyre2387 16:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

In addition to a lot of page reverts lately, I've gone ahead and proposed Tales of Ba Sing Se (along with When there was you and me, see two sections below) for deletion. Though if someone removes the tag, which wouldn't surprise me we'll have to go through the lengthy, "controversial deletion" process, which would be unfortunate. Also, it's worth noting that recently did respond to Fyre2397's comment on his talk page, redsparta, though with additional unreliable sources. Prototime 23:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Damn it, an anonymous user, who is probably Father's Wish, has removed the proposed deletion tag from Tales of Ba Sing Se (though as of right now When there was you and me remains untouched). Looks like we'll have to do this the hard way. Prototime 15:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Can't say I'm suprised, though. Oh well, time to start drafting my comment for the debate, I guess...--Fyre2387 16:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Blast it, I've hit three reverts on List_of_Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender_episodes, could somebody else keep an eye on it?--Fyre2387 17:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * With pleasure. I've also written  a message on his talk page concerning the issues of the plagairized content as well as the content from Distant Horizon. Prototime 18:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This unregistered user keeps editing that crap onto the episode list, and, unfortunately, I'm still under the umbrella of 3RR for that article. He's been told it violates policy numerous times, but he's ignoring everyone...anyone know what we can really do here?--Fyre2387 02:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added a "Request for comment" section to the talk page and tagged the List of Avatar: The Last Airbender page with the dispute tag and several dubious templates in hopes of creating a discussion on the matter in the talk page and hopefully convincing Father's Wish/his unregistered persona to stop what they're doing. If this doesn't work, we can take it to mediation and later arbitration if necessary, as per Dispute.  We can also call him out on his own breaking of the 3RR rule; I've already warned him about this, so if he does it anymore, he can have his account temporarily suspended. I can tell that we're going to have to use every channel available to help end this mess. User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 03:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * ...and just removed all of these tags.  Great, now I've broken 3RR to restore them... I don't think it'll be a problem, since it was an act of vandalism to remove those tags, but I can't help but feel overwhelmingly frustrated that it's come to this. –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 04:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm with you...this is driving me nuts, we have to spend so much time policing Avatar articles we hardly get to actually add content.--Fyre2387 04:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Plagiarism
The following message from redsparta comes from Talk:List_of_minor_secondary_characters_of_Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender (hopefully me copying this message isn't plagiarism as well, lol):

"It has recently come to my attention that a bunch of the bios and the like were copied and pasted directly from Nick's new Avatar site by Father's Wish. The bulk of it were exact replicas with no more than one or two words changed, maybe a name. I recently went through and tediously changed as much as I could but I have a feeling it's going to stop anytime soon judging from the "Secret of the Fire Nation, Part 1", "Secret of the Fire Nation, Part 2", "City of Walls and Secrets" and episode list pages and the neglectation (is that even a word) of many warnings to stop and, as of now, no response from his talk page. I have seen the same act of plagiarism added to the Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation pages as well. --redsparta 10:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)"

I wanted to further bring this to everyone's attention. This plagairized info needs to be identified and removed. I just removed a ton of it from the Earth Kingdom page--more than half of the entire page was plagairized! Some of it was hidden in between non-plagiarized text as well, so this will require a somewhat-extensive review of the pages in question. I'm still not even sure I got it all off of the Earth Kingdom page. (Also, it's worth noting that recently did respond to Fyre2397's comment on his talk page, redsparta). Prototime 22:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I just realized, while I was going through User:Father's Wish's talk page my comment was not there, niether was it in the history. The only explanation I can think of is it must have gotten lost in the shuffle as I submitted it not long after I reverted and deleted as much as I could of the plagiarised text on "List of Avatar: The Last Airbender minor secondary characters" as, not long after that, I was having much trouble even getting some pages to load and some of my recent edits wouldn't show up until they were done upgrading the severs Thursday night. --Redsparta 22:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That sucks. Recently though, I posted a comment on his talk page myself concerning the massive plagairism and the Distant Horizon "source"; you can feel free to add any comments to mine, if you'd like. –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 05:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I really don't think he's listening to our polite objections anymore H2P 05:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

When there was you and me???
What in the world is this? It has an IMDB entry, but it seems to be totally manufactured...anyone have a clue what the story here is?--Fyre2387 22:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as I can gather from forum posts, it is only an IMBD entry, and nothing proves its existence. And pardon my french, but what the hell is going on here lately?! A slew of unverifiable information,tons of plagarized info from Nick.com, edit-wars spanning numerous pages... Prototime 22:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I've looked, and IMDB is, well, full of crap about future epsiodes of Avatar, to put it mildly. Someone submited a bunch of false epsiode entires, and they were approved, somehow. Everything after "City of Walls and Secrets" on this page: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0417299/episodes#year-2006 is, well, as I said, crap.--Fyre2387 22:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and proposed both this page and Tales of Ba Sing Se for deletion. If someone removes the tag from a page, which wouldn't surprise me we'll have to go through the lengthy, "controversial deletion" process, which would be unfortunate. Prototime 23:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hopefully this won't end up going through the votes for deletion process, although I have a sinking feeling it will. If it does, though, I'm fairly certain the community consensus would be to delete.--Fyre2387 03:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Source of recent controversies
As has been mentioned,, along with a slew of anonymous users (which are almost certainly him as well), has recently been going through and adding a massive amount of unverifiable information to Secret of the Fire Nation, Part 1, Secret of the Fire Nation, Part 2, City of Walls and Secrets, List of Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes, and Earth Kingdom, as well adding as a massive amount of plagairized information to List of Avatar: The Last Airbender minor secondary characters, Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation. In addition, two new episode articles have popped up, Tales of Ba Sing Se and When there was you and me, both of which originate (sfrom unreliable sources.  It's interesting to note that the creators of these two articles are both extremely new users, and have done little else;  created Tales of Ba Sing Se, and  created When there was you and me--check out their contributions pages to see what else they've done on Wikipedia, which is nothing.  Sound suspicious? I'm beginning to wonder if at least some of these accounts are owned by the same person.  Is there anyway this can be checked out? Prototime 23:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * So we've got some Sock accounts running around destroying our pages? Great. H2P 03:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I haven’t been able to keep proper track of these issues (only so many brushfires I can try and throw water on at once) but if they are doing Sock attacks, it can (and should) be reported here: Suspected_sock_puppets.--Fyre2387 03:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Gotta love the internets. But seriously, this whole adding original research (and like the When there was you and me nonsense, which smells a lot like someone's fanfic) needs to end. Have we tried protecting/semipreotecting pages yet, or it's not that bad? Pacific Coast Highway (blah • Closed Captioned) 03:57, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Firebender is semi-protected, but as far as I know its the only Avatar-realted article that is.--Fyre2387 04:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Your welcome :-P H2P 05:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe Aang's page is as well.--Redsparta 04:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's definetley getting to the point where more pages should have this. If the anonymous users (who are almost certainly  keep attacking pages like List of Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes, I'll be requesting semi-protection for some of the pages, and full protection if it comes to it.  This is becoming very tiredesome. (Also, in regards to the socks, I think we should probably wait and see if any further evidence surfaces; I'm not sure we have much of a case, yet). –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 04:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Your input is needed!
A couple of discussions have been starting with aims of (hopefully) ending some of the recent controversies plaguing the pages. It'd help greatly if you could add your input to these discussions: Thanks. –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 04:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Talk:List of Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes concerning the recent additions to the page and others with information sourced from a Distant Horizon forum post
 * Articles for deletion/Tales of Ba Sing Se: for the deletion of the article Tales of Ba Sing Se, which is based entirely on an IMDB entry

Just thought I'd tell you guys, I've reported the anon to the Administrators' noticeboard at Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. I've also noted your discussion here and that this is related to a larger mess. It's pretty clear that the user(s) are going against consensus, and probably violating policy. Hopefully things will get cleared up pretty soon. -- Ned Scott 07:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ned's notice has gotten a 24-hour ban on that IP; I updated the link. --Crisu 17:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Meh, his IP rotated, he's editing the article again. Totally ignoring the consensus on the talk page, unsurprisingly.--Fyre2387 17:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's safe to say that this is now an issue of vandalism via WP:V violation and being against an established consensus, as such I wouldn't worry about the 3RR when removing this guy's statements. Just be sure to note this discussion in your edit summary so admins can understand what's going on. Someone also might want to request temp. semi-protection for the list of eps, which will make it so that anons can't edit. -- Ned Scott 20:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd request the protection myself, but I gotta run back to work. Best of luck.-- Ned Scott 20:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Because the anonymous user has completely disregarded community consensus, I have requested that List of Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes be semi-protected; see Requests for page protection. And thanks for requesting this user get blocked for violating 3RR, Ned... hopefully, between all of this, it'll send a message to this user and we'll finally get some results. –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 22:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I really hope your protection thing works Proto. It's getting annoying having to babysit these pages. Oh and by the way I still need input on a question I posed about the creatures page (^) and I need help trying to figure out what copyright I have to give on the card pictures I posted on the Minor Characters page. H2P 22:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

w00t, we now have protection on the list of episodes. H2P 04:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's always good to make a step in the right direction. Hopefully this will all end soon. Pacific Coast Highway (blah • Closed Captioned) 04:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * hopefully this will help. --Redsparta 05:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * sigh. Now it turns out they created a new page titled "List of Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes2" and they changed link to the episodes list on the Template:Avatar page to there instead. I reverted it back but this is getting really old. --Redsparta 05:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * A number of anonymous users, and two new users have been doing this and vandalising the Secret of the Fire Nation, Part 2 and Tales of Ba Sing Se pages lately.... it doesn't require much to figure out who this is. I'm reporting sock-puppetry to Wikipedia; I'll have a link to the report soon. –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 05:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I wish you better results than I've been getting. --Redsparta 05:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually I'm just a low life reverting it every 5 mins or so, dont have time to check all the time. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.184.92 (talk • contribs) 01:49, 24 July 2006
 * I doubt me saying anything is going to work, but it'd really do both of us a lot of good if you'd just stop. –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 05:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Can't stop, must fight for truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.184.92 (talk • contribs) 02:01, 24 July 2006
 * At what cost? Losing your Father's Wish account and all the others, so that you'll never have the ability to contribute any other truth to Wikipedia in the future, just over this one instance? –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 06:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Lets hope this helps. -- Ned Scott 06:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

not really, im still fighting for the truth, you are the vandals for eliminating the truth and putting false information. Where did you get the episode title "Secrets of the Firenation Part 1"? Please ban those people that reported me because I'm absolutely innocent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 02:21, 24 July 2006 (talk • contribs) 68.74.184.92


 * You know what, I believe you when you say that the information is the truth, but you still broke the rules, and we didn't. If you don't want to play by the rules then go to another wiki. -- Ned Scott 06:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Wont give up until you guys admit you're wrong and I'm right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.117.57 (talk • contribs) 02:57, 24 July 2006
 * I don't need to sleep H2P 06:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

but i do seeya later — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.117.57 (talk • contribs) 03:00, 24 July 2006

Everyone's input is also needed on Templates_for_deletion.--Fyre2387 19:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This is pathetic...he's vandalizing the TfD vote, for God's sake...--Fyre2387 19:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the current insanity
 Please see and contribute to Suspected sock puppets/Father's Wish, if you'd like... –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 07:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if the admins just can't do much to block him because of the dynamic IP, or if they're not understanding that the user can easily evade blocks. Hopefully Prototime's evidence page will make things clear. -- Ned Scott 07:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I really hope so. Unfortunately, I must be off to bed... I hope that things will have greatly improved by the time I check this tomorrow. –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 07:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the main Avatar article is s-protected, so now he's comming after this very page. Cute, very cute.--Fyre2387 01:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Are talk pages eligible for s-protect? If not, we can still request to s-protect the Wikiproject page.  --Crisu 03:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * So, have we won? H2P 05:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd hope so. It's past 1:00 am here in New York, and I need to sleep. Pacific Coast Highway (blah • Closed Captioned) 05:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Rest easy my friend, it is my shift anyway. H2P 05:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I too really hope so, as I too am planning on heading to bed shortly, but as far as tomorrow goes--I'm not putting my guard down just yet. –Prototime (talk • contribs) 05:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Despite the user's claim to give up, he's still at it, creating new accounts and vandalizing pages. Not surprising. –Prototime (talk • contribs) 19:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

An abuse report has been filed, targetting the IPs of Father's Wish: Abuse reports. –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 22:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The case has been accepted; see Abuse reports/Father's Wish. –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 00:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Stopped
Yes, I have stopped already, so all the other vandals that aren't Chicago IP-based aren't me. 69.214.221.232 05:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Good to hear. –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 02:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion on "Structural Guidelines"
From the WikiProject main page:

---

Structural guidelines ''encompass guidelines for how information relating to the show is broken up and distributed by categories, articles, sections, and templates, as well as the format for all articles within a category and the format for all templates. These guidelines are detailed below; feel free to discuss them on the talk page.''

Format guidelines for the articles within the below categories are currenty under discussion:


 * Category:Avatar: The Last Airbender characters
 * Category:Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes
 * Category:Avatar: The Last Airbender nations

---

The aim of this discussion is to finalize a uniform page structure for all pages within their respective Avatar sub-categories. It'll require some reworking and rewriting of current page sections, and everyone's input is a necessity in making this decision. Let's start hammering these out.

Category:Avatar: The Last Airbender characters
Personally, I really like the work Raceberry did on the Prince Zuko page, and would love to see a similar format applied to all of the Avatar main character pages. The way the pages would be layed out would be like this:
 * History
 * Story
 * Book 1: Water
 * Book 2: Earth
 * Book 3: Fire (in the future, of course)
 * Personality
 * Family
 * "Family member A" (if relationship to family member is notable)
 * "Family member B" (if relationship to family member is notable)
 * (etc.)
 * Other (would denote any minor relationships with family members, if applicable)
 * Relationships
 * "Relationship A"
 * "Relationship B"
 * (etc.)
 * Other (would denote any minor relationships, if applicable)

There could also be some necessary exceptions, like maybe an "Avatar" section for the Aang's page, though maybe these things could be subsections as well. Also, I'm not really sure how to incorporate the "bending" sections that (only some) character pages currently have; maybe the "Personality" section could be renamed "Character", with two subsections: "Personality" and "xxxbending".

What are your thoughts on how these pages should be set up? Prototime 22:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well with all of the main characters being benders besides Sokka, why don't we just make a second catagory for bending information and just omit it from Sokka's page? H2P 05:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm good with that template. And would it also work to have a Bending section on Sokka's page but talk about how he doesn't have the ability (and instead put all of his "He's just as a capable as a warrior and engineer" stuff there)?  --Crisu 13:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * How about a more general section labeled “Abilities” where we can discuss bending (what they bend, how skilled they are at it, and so forth) when its applicable along with any other skills or abilities they may have, such as weapons they may be able to use, things like that. --Fyre2387 15:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds good to me. And for characters who have bending abilities as well as other notable abilities, i.e. Zuko's firebending abilitiy and his sword-fighting ability, this Abilities section could be further broken down into subsections. Prototime 19:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * If we're in agreement, then, I'll start integrating this new layout (and of course, I hope everyone else does the same!)

Category:Avatar: The Last Airbender nations
Here is what I suggest for the structure of pages in this category:


 * Geography
 * Culture (could merge content that's currently in "Appearance" sections into this section, as it really desribes the citizens, not the nation)
 * Government
 * Military
 * Army (if applicable)
 * Navy (if applicable)
 * Other (if applicable)
 * Locations
 * Cities
 * Landmarks
 * Other (if applicable)
 * Influences
 * Notable figures

Of course, this is just my suggestion. What are your thoughts? –User:Prototime (talk • contribs) 01:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Listing Avatars
Since as of late we’ve had some debate over how to list Avatars in pages for nations and bending types, I thought we ought to take the discussion here to come up with a solution, rather than continue edit warring. First, I’d like to apologize if any of my edit summaries came off rude, I’ve had something of a stressfully day and wasn’t, perhaps, as civil as I should have been. Nevertheless, we do need to come up with a solution.

Now, here’s what, in my opinion, would be the best way:

For the nation pages, only list an Avatar if they were from that nation. It seems to me this is the most accurate way to do it. For example, as a fully trained Avatar, Roku could, no doubt, do Airbending, Waterbending, and Earthbending. However, he was still a citizen of the Fire Nation, and not a Water Tribesmen, Air Nomad, or Earth Kingdom subject.

The bending arts pages are, however, less cut-and-dry. After all, it is true that Avatars can, by default, bend all elements. I do have a thought, though. From what (admittedly little) we’ve seen of Avatars, they seem to use their “native” elements the most. That makes sense, since that’s what they grew up learning (remember, under normal circumstances, one isn’t told he or she is the Avatar until their sixteenth birthday.) Remember, now, that these sections are labeled “Notable -benders”. I would make the argument that Roku, for example, would be notable as a Firebender certainly, but not really as an Earthbender.

Now, this is all just my opinions. Any input from anybody else would be great.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 23:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

For the nations I as just trying to save some editing since each a avatar from another nation is revealed we have to list him or her. So I was trying to sum up all air nomad avatars as just the avatar and all water tribe avatars as just the avatar (and so on and so forth) just to save some editing since there is probably over 20 avatars from each nation from what we have seen in the southern air temple.

And also for the bending all avatars are waterbenders, earthbenders, firebenders and airbenders even if they don't use their other bending abilities or only use their natural element most of the time —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Azraen (talk • contribs).

Secrets of the Fire Nation
http://www.animationinsider.net/article.php?articleID=1126

I e-mailed this guy and he assured me that Nick allowed him to see the show before hand:


 * "My name is Aaron H. Bynum, and I am the editor-in-chief/Content Administrator for AnimationInsider.net. We have been online since summer of 2003; publishing news and reviews information regarding the Eastern and Western animation industries.  None of the information we publish are rumors; we only publish news articles or review articles based on information derived from official materials (press releases & media kits, interviews, licensed domestic releases, &c).


 * I did receive official rights from Nickelodeon to review the content of AVATAR: THE LAST AIRBENDER, episodes #212 and #213; for all legal purposes. I apologize if you have come under scrutiny for searching for a means to validate the information you are receiving, with little to begin with.


 * Due to the fact that Episodes #212 and #213 will not officially air on Nickelodeon until September 15th, I have appropriately noted in and around my review article that said article contains spoilers"

Now, we've been having a lot of trouble recently with people posting "hacked" information about these episodes. This review is mostly point of view, but the facts are there and we should decide what to do with them. We could make a coming soon page, such as Harry Potter Book 7, or we could ignore it all together. But apparently we do now have titles: The Serpent's Path (which according to this guy's review sound like a sexual innuendo) and The Drill.

I consider this in no way a victory on the side of the sock puppets that harassed us, but I have a feeling we're gonna hear from them again. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 04:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Taking a Break
No offence to you guys, but I'm gonna take a break from updating for till atleast Tuesday. Our watched sites are going to explode due to the new episode and I don't want to deal with that stress of all the reverting. I'll nit pick randomly when I get bored but there is no way I'm gonna stay real active right now. We should get into a better flow as the two new episodes become old news. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 02:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

suggestion
should we give Mai and Ty Lee their own pages like Azula? Or are they still considered secondary characters? --Piemanmoo 09:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Depends, WP:FICT says "If an encyclopedic treatment of such a character causes the article on the work itself to become long, then that character can be given a separate article." If the amount of text is encyclopedic then yes, but if it's just long because someone wrote a lot of stuff, then no. Hope that helps. -- Ned Scott 09:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think "upgrading" them to primary characters would be necessary at this point. We really don't know enough about them to have a full article like that.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Tagging talk pages and assessing articles
Hi. If you still have work to do tagging talk pages and assessing articles, my AWB plugin might be of interest to you.

The plugin has two main modes of operation:
 * Tagging talk pages, great for high-speed tagging
 * Assessments mode, for reviewing articles (pictured)

As of the current version, WikiProjects with simple "generic" templates are supported by the plugin without the need for any special programatic support by me. I've had a look at your project's template and you seem to qualify.

For more information see:
 * About the plugin
 * About support for "generic" WikiProject templates
 * User guide
 * About AWB (AutoWikiBrowser)

Hope that helps. If you have any questions or find any bugs please let me know on the plugin's talk page. --Kingboyk 11:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Citations and episodes
Hello, everyone, since Avatar is going into it's third season, information on the characters grows and grows. There are almost no citations in the character articles, sooooo ... can't we make somehow make a citation so we know from which episode the info comes from? I think that would greatly reduce "wishful thinking" and assumptions, as articles tend to get undermined by this. Any suggestions? -- Plum couch Talk2Me 17:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If by wishful thinking you mean speculation, believe me that's pretty much all I do. I don't hardly ever add additions, I just keep the pages clean of speculation and nonsence while leaving additions as well as grammar changes up to the other various editors that come by. When you mean citation, however, I don't know what more we could do other than providing a link to the episode that the action happened, which normally we do (In Episode X, Character Y did this. or As seen in Episode A). Please explain a little further as too what it is you want us to do. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 19:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, just a minor, insignificant example: In the article Airbender, there it is mentioned (see Glider for that) that the Staff is handcrafted by the Monks. How do we know that? Aang tells us in the episode Bitter Work when Toph abuses his staff as a nutcracker. I added a reference (there is a template for episode references), so we know where the information comes. I personally think this is useful, since we can distinguish made-up information from genuine information. (Since it takes people one look into the appropriate episode/DVD/tape to verify the claim.) What do you think? Best regards, -- Plum couch Talk2Me 14:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd personally prefer in-prose citations whenever possible. Having a number (or even worse, a cite needed tag) after every other sentence disrupts the article and makes it harder to read, especially if you're using a screen reader or something similar.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 15:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't care *how* you cite, as long *as* you cite. I noticed that the main article was a "Featured article"-candidate, but got dismissed as it didn't cite. Also, several TV series articles (Lost or West Wing) that got featured use the way I cited episodes - and generally, I try to take featured articles of the same "genre" as role models. Also, I think by just including a number, instead of mentioning the name of the entire episode, it won't crowd an article so much. Best regards, -- Plum couch Talk2Me 12:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I redid the creature section, so that's my biggest load gone (aside from making the Spirit World page actually useful). Someone tell me exactly what to put (nowiki code) in order to site to another page and I'll get working on that.

“Notes” sections on episode articles
I’ve been looking through our articles on episodes, especially the more recent ones, and the “Notes” sections are getting really long. I’d like to get input about shrinking them a bit. My thinking is, these notes should be strictly about the episodes, not about locations, characters, creatures, and so on. All those things have their own pages. For example, City of Walls and Secrets has four notes describing Ba Sing Se in some way. Ideally, all that would be in the description of Ba Sing Se elsewhere (see the other section I’m making in this edit for that.)--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This is only getting worse. I'm going to start working backwards through the episodes removing stuff from notes that belongs somewhere else (and putting it there if it isn't already there.)--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 16:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been removing unneeded notes for a while now. People keep putting them back. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 22:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

New article: Ba Sing Se
With so many episodes set in Ba Sing Se (two already, and from the looks of things several more) we have a lot to say about it. I’m thinking it warrants an article of its own. Anyone object?--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 00:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * unless we've reached an Avatar limit on Wiki, the more pages the better. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 02:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * According to the Nick.com site (go to the site, then change Avatar2 to avatar for my source for this info) there will be 6 more episodes inside Ba Sing Se. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 03:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Just thinking, even if Appa's Lost Days are counted in h2p's episodes in Ba Sing Se, that means that their is still one episode left to happen there. (2 + 6 - 7 = 1) Cnriaczoy42 21:23, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I've started Ba Sing Se, and laid down a basic framework, but there's still much to be done. Its time I went to sleep now, but tomorrow I'll work on expanding it and change the entry on the Earth Kingdom page to a quick summary. Also, many links will need to be redirected.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 05:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Chinese characters
Yeah, they look cool, but I'm not sure all computers pick them up and because of that I question if they should be there. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 02:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Some of the Indian articles see (Shahrukh Khan or Akbar) have Persian, Urdu and Devanagari scripts. The template for Asian (or rather Chinese) actors has a place for the traditional Chinese (see Jackie Chan for example.) No one seems to bother and the Asian actor template is generally used. I don't see a reason for the Chinese characters to be deleted, since all the "real persons" have their names written out in Chinese, no matter if people can read it or not. Best regards, -- Plum couch Talk2Me 13:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Image citations
Wow, we have a problem here. If you go to the main Avatar article, you see the problems easily. Almost all the pictures (I uploaded the Iroh, Katara, and the new HD Map ones, they should be fine or atleast only need minor changes) need their citations changed with a fair use rational, screenshot copyright, and permission by the person(s) that captured it. I already know that all the creatures pictures need changes so that it's AvatarSpirit.net not .com and I've sent an e-mail to Firebender.net for permission but there are a lot of pictures that should be combed over as it is a requirement for feature article approval. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 14:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * As of now, all images on the minor secondary characters page have fair use rationales for that page. And it only took about 50 edits to do it. Also, I'd like to remind everybody to make sure that, when you upload an image, you categorize it into . A lot of the pictures I did today were not there.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 18:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Last night I fixed all the creatures images, something I had been putting off. A reminder that if you upload a creature image it would be nice to put that AvatarSpirit.net gave me permission to use them. They were upset in their last e-mail that pictures were being taken from their site without permission. I sent a recent e-mail to them in hopes to assure them that this topic is being worked on currently. As per Firebender.com, they are closing their site and the only way to contact the person is through their forum which I did not join yet. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 18:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Yo
You wanted help in the Spirit World article. You got it, bud. T.z0n3 23:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Project Directory
Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing WikiProject Council/Directory. These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages:
 * User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory,
 * User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2,
 * User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory,
 * User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory,
 * User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory,
 * User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
 * User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
 * User:Badbilltucker/Science directory

and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 21:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now put the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. B2T2 23:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Bender Templates
So, I'm new to this project, so please politely remind me if I make the occasional stupid mistake. Anyway, the Earthbender, Airbender, Waterbender, and Firebender pages all have drastically different page setups. I was wondering: is there any agreed-upon template for these? If there isn't, I suggest that we come up with one pronto, because currently the '-bender' pages are quite confusing. Sandmouse 15:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * OKay, since no one seems talkative right now, I'll propose one myself:

Anyone have any other suggestions? Sandmouse 02:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Origin & History (Badger-moles for earthbending, the moon for waterbending, etc.)
 * Fighting Style (The Martial Art it is based on)
 * Forms (i.e., for waterbending, there would be Northern, Southern, and Swamp styles)
 * Tecniques & Weapons (for Airbending, there would be the glider and the air scooter; for firebending, lightning would be here, as well as Zuko's flame-swords; one for waterbending would be healing, etc.)
 * Culture (Agni Kai for firebenders; that airball game Aang taught Sokka; the Earthbending game the kids were playing in Iroh's tale. Also would include Elemental Symbol)
 * Notable ___benders (self-explanatory; replace ___ with Earth, Fire, Water, or Air)

You guys might want to throw in some input on this...
A new proposal regarding some restrictions for fair use images has been put forth. Seeing as this proposal would, if passed, have a major effect on several Avatar-related articles, I figured some of you guys might want to give some input.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 19:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Members List
Getting kind of long, and most these people I never actually see edits from. Is there a way to prune it? H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 20:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we could put a message on the user talk pages of less active members, asking if they still wish to participate in the project. I agree something should be done, though, I've not seen edits from many on the list in a while, and it would be nice to have an accurate number of how many people we really have working on Avatar articles.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 20:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Fandom
Should there be an article on Avatar fandom? Richardkselby 20:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * To put it bluntly, No. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 23:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you give a reason, as there is an article on Harry Potter fandom? Richardkselby 00:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Reviewing that article (Harry Potter fandom), the Harry Potter stuff is a whole different league. All an Avatar one would really be is a shipping guide and a list of fansites.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 03:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

well, we could ass fanfiction and fanart and fanvids to here. The only differense is that Harry potter has that Harry and the potters band on there. Richardkselby 04:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I still really don't think its notable. I mean, if Wikipedia had fandom articles for every show made, it would just get absurd. Harry Potter is one of the most popular book series of all time. Avatar is nowhere near that.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 04:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

But Avatar is GOOD Richardkselby 02:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Stablepedia
Beginning cross-post.
 * See Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team. If you wish to comment, please comment there. ★ MESSED  ROCKER ★  23:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

''End cross-post. Please do not comment more in this section.''

Avatar Article
As many may know, somebody looking to find out about the show will want one article in front of them giving them a full description of why they should watch it. However, current fans who need more information on an epsiode or character will look for an individual article on the subject. Therefore, the main Avatar article ( Avatar: The Last Airbender ) should have a brief description of every character and epsiode, a full description of the shows creation, etc. (since it is a TV show article) and links to the seperate articles for every character, epsiode, etc. This may seem as if it has already been done but the main thing missing is the episodes in the main Avatar article. There is not even a list of the episodes, let alone a short description. In addition, Appa and Momo are rarely mentioned in the article even though they have a big role in the show. 71.247.34.36 15:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The episodes are fine with a separate article. It's pretty easy to click a link to find out. And Appa and Momo are mentioned frequently. Though they are not main characters. Appa even has his own article now. -Dylan0513 16:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Sub-skills for Airbending?
Does airbending have any sub-skills? No airbending sub-skills were shown in the series (possibly because Aang is the only airbender in it), so we have to assume that airbending does not have a sub-skill, and thus all that "each bending style has a sub-skill unique to their element" statements in other bending articles have to be removed. Sure, we know that the fire nation has electrokinesis, waterbenders have vitakinesis, earthbending has ferrokinesis, but until it is proven that airbending has a sub-skill, to say that each element has a unique sub-skill is purely speculative and should not be in Wikipedia. What do you guys think? - Stretchyrubberbands( Tell me how to overcome my stupidity) 17:28, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Season Finale Airs Today
Just a reminder to everyone. Too bad I'll be missing it because I have to stay at the office. Can someone please send me the episode? Or at least post it on Youtube? - Stretchyrubberbands( Tell me how to overcome my stupidity) 16:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * YouTube doesn't allow that anymore. Just torrent it. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 23:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't allow it anymore? But I just watched it on Youtube. If you were talking about the 10-minute limit, then the obvious way to get around it is to post it in several parts.Stretchyrubberbands( Tell me how to overcome my stupidity) 16:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Userboxes
Hey i saw all those userboxes that were on the site and well I did not quite fit with any of them so I made my own.

Not sure if anyone else would want to use it but if you do, be my guest. Tell me what you think.
 * I'm guessing that could be the template for the peace loving hippy non-bender :-P. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 03:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * meh mabey 8-) Phoenix741 03:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

NOTICE TO ALL EDITORS
From the comments that I have noticed that were being left recently by members of this project, I have noticed that some of the more prominent members of this project seem to be very harsh in their edit summaries when removing trivia or shipping, from aricles. Many of these editors are new and believe that the article needs this. PLease just post a nice aand friendly comment on their tlak page. If any non-avatar editor saw the attitude that was being sent to new people who believe they are trying to help, they would immediatley chastice us. Please read WP:GF, WP:CIV, and WP:EQ to see the standards for being nice on wikipedia. It's comments like the these that encourge people to either be vandals or not become frequent contributor. Cnriaczoy42 03:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I know I'm trying hard, but I have to at least say a little silly stuff to not go paranoid for everything. I usually state the reason it's being deleted somewhere in the description of the edit. -Dylan0513 03:44, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, the happy pills aren't working. Let's see, I've been warned of this I think 3 times now and yeah... it's probably not going to happen, especially when we have specific notes EVERYWHERE not to add shipping. As for the nonsence posts, they should know better. H2P (Yell at me for what I've done) 03:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand, it can be frustrating. But if we make trivia guidelines for our project, and post a link to them on either their talk page or the edit summary, you can stop these repeat offenders. And for shipping, redirect them to WP:8W and mention that it is not factual and verifiable. If you were just joining like them, I'm sure that you would not like to continue writing. Cnriaczoy42 21:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I try to be polite as I can, but really, when they just flat-out ignore comments/talk pages, I have little sympathy. Besides which, compared to these shippers when their toes get stepped on, we're downright polite. And honestly, if you think just showing a link to some polices/guidelines will stop many of these people, you’re kidding yourself.


 * Oh, and FYI: posting a section header in all caps really isn't needed.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 02:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)