Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Glee task force/Archive 4

Television episode task force and us
It turns out that when we set up the WikiProject Television/Glee task force template on episode talk pages, we haven't been properly filling in the Episode coverage fields. Or, rather, we've been including "|episode-coverage=yes", but not the importance field that goes with it, "|episode-coverage-importance=". We need to include that latter field, and add the importance level after that equal sign. As you'd expect, these range from Low to Top as all the others do, but the criteria are different. Here's what they give in WikiProject_Television/Episode_coverage:
 * Top-importance episodes have attained a status of significant importance not just to a single television series, but to the history of television or pop culture at large. Examples: "Job Switching" (I Love Lucy), "The Last Show" (Mary Tyler Moore Show)
 * High-importance episodes are very important or notable in the context of an individual series, and has gained recognition to general audiences outside of that series as well. Examples: "The Contest" (Seinfeld), "Made in America" (The Sopranos)
 * Mid-importance episodes may have particular significance in the context of an individual show, but has not necessarily gained significant importance outside of that series. Examples: "The One with Ross's Wedding" (Friends), "Scott Tenorman Must Die" (South Park)
 * Low-importance episodes are not of any particular importance, within the context of the series of the individual series or otherwise, but still satisfy Wikipedia's notability guidelines. Examples: "Ron and Tammy" (Parks and Recreation), "Lemon of Troy" (The Simpsons)

My thoughts:
 * We probably don't have any Top-importance episodes.
 * High-importance episodes would be "Pilot" and maybe "The Sue Sylvester Shuffle" because of its post-Super Bowl placement; the latter would be at least Mid. I'm wondering whether "Original Song" might qualify because of the kiss and/or the first original songs (one of which made Billboard Hot 100's top 10 and became a gold record), and possibly "The First Time" for a gay teen romance gaining a sexual component; both are at least firmly Mid as well.
 * All of the artist "tribute" episodes are at least Mid-importance, and maybe one or two might be High. I don't count either "Rumours" or "The Rocky Horror Glee Show" in these, but do "The Power of Madonna", "Britney/Brittany", and "Michael" as well. The two Lady Gaga-based episodes aren't quite tributes, but qualify as Mid for other reasons.
 * These episodes qualify as Mid-importance (though I have a feeling I'm not being inclusive enough):
 * Season 1: "Preggers", "Wheels", "Ballad", "Sectionals", "Hell-O", "Dream On", "Theatricality", "Journey to Regionals"
 * Season 2: "Duets", "Never Been Kissed", "The Substitute", "Silly Love Songs", "Sexy", "Original Song", "Born This Way", "Prom Queen", "New York"
 * Season 3: "Asian F", "The First Time", "Mash Off", "Yes/No"


 * The remainder are Low-importance.

I'm going to seed the episodes with my best guesses (listed above) once I post this, and I don't doubt that several will change after the discussion here. I've tried not to allow the Mid list to be skewed by episodes I liked, or by those I wasn't as impressed with. I'm expecting plenty of disagreement; the first season looks sparse to my eye. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Black or White
iTunes has a collection of ten songs called "Black or White". Should I create a stub for Black or White (Glee Cast album)? I believe this complies with naming conventions, though I am not sure if this particular collection would be considered an album or an EP. An article already exists for "Black or White" and "Black or White (Glee)" would imply the title of an episode rather than an album. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:52, 31 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Good find on Black or White. I would say, however, that it's too early to create a stub for two reasons: we should wait until we have some concrete information about this, especially whether it's an album or EP, because that could affect the name we use. Also, it seems extremely odd that there is no "Glee: The Music" at the front of the name; this has never been done before on soundtrack albums from the series. Are these the same ten songs that were planned for "Michael"? (Note that "I Want You Back" has been cut from the episode that will air tonight.) Might there be MJ music from Regionals in it? (They started recording the music for the episode, number 14, yesterday.) As for the name, assuming there is no "Glee: The Music" differentiator, I think you're headed in the right direction, but "album" may well not be the best word: perhaps "soundtrack".


 * My suggestion: when a press release is available for the album/EP with some official information, that's the time to create the stub. There's no rush, and if they've started releasing info to iTunes, gleethemusic.com ought to have something soon, probably once tonight's episode has aired. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Later: I wonder if this is a real thing, rather than an iTunes construct. Instead of being given independent album pricing, it's exactly the cost of ten singles, which is what's on the album, and it's the ten MJ songs that were supposed to be in the episode, including the subsequently cut "I Want You Back". Still, it could be a convenient way for people to order all ten songs in one swell foop, which may be why they created it. Given the sales of the singles—all now top 50, and most in the top 25—I'd expect to see "Black or White" combo on the iTunes album list, and it isn't there anywhere in the top 100. Another thing that could militate against this being a real Glee album is the lack of actual cover artwork; it's just using the standard episode season three dodgeball shot that's being used for each of the ten singles from the episode. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Thanks for the feedback. I am surprised an album, or at least an EP, was not released. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:29, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Y'know, I'm wondering whether that might have been part of the rights deal with the Jackson estate, that an episode-only album couldn't be released. Still, I expect that there will be a large chunk of songs from the episode on the Volume 8 soundtrack, which I'd imagine will cover the five winter episodes, "Yes/No" through Regionals (the last of which is now being filmed). I'm guessing at a February 21 release, the same day as the Regionals episode will be airing. After that, it's a long wait until April and the final eight of the season. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:48, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Mike Chang
The Mike Chang article has been updated since the end of season two. After Asian F, when there was major character development with him, there is probably a lot of sources out there that can be used to update it. I'm going to do my best to update it, but help would be appreciated. JDDJS (talk) 19:55, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

After looking at all of the other character pages, I realized that a lot of them really need to be updated. JDDJS (talk) 03:23, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, we haven't had as many editors from the task force active this season, so it's been a full load just keeping up with episodes. Usually, character pages have gotten updated on a need-to-fix basis, generally when someone edits a character page with recent events that then need to be edited for style or substance. It's the characters like Mike or Artie, with less of a fanbase, that aren't updated by non-task-force editors. I think it's great that you've started to tackle Mike, who is a character that has finally come into his own this season. I'll look back into my notes to see if there's anything more that can be gleaned for his musical performances in "Hold On to Sixteen" and "Michael". So far as I know, most storylines were up to date through the end of season two, though many of the other sections are still more heavily weighted toward season one, or even the first half of season one. In part, it's harder work to weed out old material—decide what's more or less important—than it is to write new.


 * Incidentally, I reverted your reflist change on the Kurt Hummel page from 30em back to 2. The vast majority of the Glee task force articles use reflist|2. I, personally, prefer that look to the narrower incarnations of 30em, but if there are strong reasons to prefer the width versus the number of columns, we could certainly consider a change. We have 162 actual articles, including stubs and lists, that would be affected. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:58, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I usually refer 2 over 30em but I thought that there were too many references on Kurt's page for two columns. However I don't care about it enough to argue it. I was surprised to find that some of the bigger characters' pages aren't up to date. For example, Finn's page has not been updated since Yes/No, and even then it was to include that he proposes and nothing about his father. I think that we should try to update all of the articles during the break. JDDJS (talk) 04:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey! Just wanted to jump in and add to the discussion. BlueMoonset brought this to my attention on Frickative's userpage. I've been absent on Wikipedia for the majority of Glee third season, but I'm going to jump in this week and try to work on some of the problems regarding the character pages (clean up, addition of citations, updating, etc. Basically an overall "Wikifying" to some of the new information). Hopefully, we can get the majority of the articles perfected soon. By the way, I just noticed Shannon Beiste is already a GA. Fantastic! That means we really only have eleven character pages to go (excluding the Characters of Glee page). HorrorFan121 (talk) 22:28, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Coverage needed for Glee pages
I'm going to be away from Wikipedia for a couple of weeks, scaling back tomorrow and disappearing Wednesday afternoon, which means we need other people to step up and monitor the articles that tend to get the most unsourced, unverifiable information: those of the back eight episodes that are active or becoming active ("Big Brother" has a DYK on the front page at the moment, and someone determined to put Quinn in a wheelchair without sourcing, and then with inadequate sourcing, and the same with the two songs that have no performer sourcing).

I hope some of you can give a little more time to this until my return; fortunately, the third season articles are protected against IPs and new (unconfirmed) accounts, which saves us from the worst of it. Also watch out for Glee (TV series), since it gets so many hits.

Thanks! We've been in a bit of a lull while Glee was off the air; I imagine things are going to pick up now that the last eight episodes are going to air over the next seven weeks. (Note: they started filming episode 20 in earnest today, and recording the music for episode 21, which is Nationals. And if Nationals is 21, I think that leaves 22 as Graduation...) BlueMoonset (talk) 03:15, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Portal?
Do project members have an interest in assembling a Portal page for Glee? See Portal:The Simpsons for an example of a featured portal. Portals take work to set up but, as far as I know, little management once established. This project certainly has enough material to showcase. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 19:44, 10 May 2012 (UTC)


 * It looks interesting and quite pretty, but unless you're interested in taking it on with minimal assistance, I don't think we have critical mass for something like that, although we do indeed have plenty of material. (Not, of course, to compare with The Simpsons.) It would be low on my list of priorities in terms of setup and maintenance.


 * It used to be we had several people working on various types of articles—episodes, characters, soundtrack albums, actors, etc.—to try to bring them to GA or FL or the like. Participation in the project is low these days. Right now, I'm basically it on the roster in terms of episode article development, JDDJS has been working on updating a few character articles, and some non-roster folks are contributing early information about episodes and songs and discography. At my current rate, it'll be June before I've worked through the episode backlog and can start to give attention to a more systematic update of character and season articles. Much as I hate to say it, I think this project is losing steam, rather like the show itself is losing viewership. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * My interest in the show dropped when Ryan and Brad became less involved. Perhaps I should hold off on starting the Portal. No doubt this project deserves a quality Portal when the time is right. (WikiProject Glee is one of those projects where I think every single article under its umbrella could actually reach Good or Featured status!) -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 20:19, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

NYADA
One of the articles, maybe Glee (season 3), should mention the New York Academy of the Dramatic Arts (NYADA) and document that it is a fictional institution; and New York Academy of the Dramatic Arts and NYADA should be redirects to that article. My guess is that many viewers wonder if it's a real institution and have probably turned to Wikipedia to find out about it.

Some useful refs: (is this a WP:RS?);  a RS, but does little other than mentioning the school as fictional); and  (not clear if it's a RS, and does little but mention the school as fictional).

Season 3 is the one that introduced NYADA, correct? That seems the likely article to point to. TJRC (talk) 20:42, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

The Dalton Academy Warblers
Hey, maybe we should add The Dalton Academy Warblers to the Template:Glee? I'm not quite sure where, but I think it would be usefull. -- Edgars2007  (talk/contribs) 05:55, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm very divided about this proposal. The Warblers article is an odd hybrid, because it's both a musical recording group and a fictional school group, and the article doesn't seem to know how to reconcile the two effectively. As such, it didn't seem appropriate to add it anywhere, especially not to a template, until it found its niche, assuming it didn't disappear first: since its infobox is mostly non-notable people/roles (much as I like Curt and Riker and Jon and Titus and Dominic, there's not a lot of reliable secondary source material about them), and the body is an odd amalgam of the album article and the production section from "The First Time", there's nothing there that doesn't already exist elsewhere. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:18, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Darren
Maybe somebody has something to say about history? -- Edgars2007  (talk/contribs) 18:49, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This looks like something that belongs on Talk:Darren Criss, since there is clear disagreement about what is appropriate or not for inclusion in the article. Wikipedia has many guidelines, especially as regards notability: a discussion is probably in order that includes reference to these. There's been a disappointing lack of edit summaries all around, from what I can see. Perhaps you should start there instead of here? BlueMoonset (talk) 19:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Shooting Star
Anyone willing to write a cohesive reception section for tomorrow's "Shooting Star" episode. It's clearly going to be a poignant episode. I'm willing but it would be my first time and some guidance, direction, and copy-editing would be appreciated. &mdash; Robin   (talk)  16:39, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

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Good topics?
Before I spend time creating Good topic templates for the other seasons of Glee (see above), can I ask if someone has already created them elsewhere? Don't want to duplicate work. I don't think project members have been promoting articles to Good status lately, unfortunately, but it might be nice to have the Good topic templates ready so we can see article ratings at-a-glance. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 17:01, 2 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Another Believer, they wouldn't have been created anywhere else. The reason they weren't created here is because none of the articles in the later seasons (fourth through sixth) had ever been improved beyond C-class, and there didn't seem much point in creating the lists when there weren't people interested in pursuing Good Article status. At this point, it doesn't seem likely that we well be getting any full-season Good Topics; even the first season isn't going to get there without the second and third albums be raised to GA status, and there just isn't interest there either. That said, if you want to create them here, I don't see any barrier to it, though we'll need to increase the minimum number of sections on this talk page to prevent everything else from being archived prematurely. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:43, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for confirming. We could always move the GT templates to the front of the page, too, in order to prevent archiving. BlueMoonset, I seem to recall you promoting articles to GA in the past. Have others who also used to promote articles left the project? --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 21:05, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Glee discography split
Members of this task force might be interested in a proposal I've started here. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:33, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

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Blatant bias to/against certain actors - very serious neutrality concern
I don't know much about Glee, I've been editing some of the actors articles since July, but I think this lack of knowledge is a benefit because I come to this view from an understanding of WP policy and with subject knowledge from merely reading RS. I think there is a massive case of bias/NPOV violation in the case of Dianna Agron and Cory Monteith. Editing Agron's article, I noticed there was only one review to source a negative statement of one song, so I searched for some more to find the critical consensus - only to discover that every other review was more positive! The song is from the episode Throwdown (Glee), and I am disgusted at that article. While many reviews are positive, none of these are mentioned, but the sole negative review is mentioned three times including in the lead and in the caption of an image of Agron - this seems to go beyond merely UNDUE and into ATTACK territory.

I went to the main Glee (TV series) article coincidentally to try and find sources for Naya Rivera and Agron's credits in the later seasons (unsourced there, by the way), and was shocked to find a wikivoice statement that there is "condemnation" of Monteith and Agron's singing. Again, this is sourced to a single review, no where near enough to support such a strong word! And some of the songs it lists - Monteith's "No Air", for example, I have found many supportive reviews for. So now I worry that this is a systemic issue, but not knowing enough and not wanting to spare time for discussion, I ignore it. Until today. I was adding some specific episode reviews to Agron's article for Ballad (Glee) and Big Brother (Glee), which I noticed consistently praised her so thought such lauding worth mention. I visited the "Ballad" article and was again shocked to see no mention of her or Monteith (also reasonably well-praised) in the reception section at all. It seems that when there isn't a single negative review to frame them poorly, they are omitted completely. Then I look to "Big Brother" and see that the coverage of Darren Criss's songs is celebratory but Agron's was "mixed"; I open the sources actually in the article, and there are ample negative reviews of Criss's songs from the same sources that have middling reviews of Agron used to portray her negatively, but these are not mentioned for Criss. I have serious neutrality concerns that these articles were written by someone with actor preferences that have clearly made it into the prose.

The fact that these articles, many of which are little more than a plot, cast list, and five reviews, all poorly-sourced, pretend to be good articles, is frankly insulting to readers (and of course those at the GA process); but it is made worse by what appears to be an editor vendetta against two actors (at least, imagine if I kept checking!...)

So I have now done some more checking. I just went to the "Pilot" article and note that it claims reviews are critical of Jessalyn Gilsig when they actually say she plays her awful character well; Agron is not mentioned in "Showmance" despite it being her first song; "Acafellas" frankly just insults the show rather than present an overview of critical commentary, which is perplexing, but more perplexing is that it uses a review praising Agron's voice in "Showmance" - obviously missing from that article - to help insult the rest of the show; "Journey" again fails to mention Agron despite much praise for her labor scene; looking further into the show, the problem persists: I remember "Mash Off" as an important Rivera episode (I'm also using the Glee fandom wiki articles for knowledge). At this article we have an image caption saying that Monteith and Rivera were praised, but this is Monteith's only mention (no source), while Rivera gets ample coverage. There is also a paragraph on a Hall & Oates mash off that fandom wiki says has lead vocals by Monteith and Agron; of course this is not mentioned, and while a majority of the reviews are positive it is the one calling it "an abomination" and "the worst" that leads off the paragraph. I can't be too critical, though, since in the next episode there is a paragraph on a Monteith song that starts by saying it was praised, but the wide range of reviews presented show it was much more polarizing. Of course, it then has an entire paragraph of quotations just insulting several characters, which doesn't seem appropriate.

Perhaps different editors, or just a poor grasp of how to write a critical reception section, is the issue then - but this has evidently introduced bias even if not intentional.

I know this page isn't trafficked much, but in case those who do know come along - or at least, editors with time - I don't even think this warrants discussion, there is clear bias running right through a lot of this project's articles, which needs purging. If I do get time, always hit and miss, I will address it myself, with one first aim being to take everything to GAR since it seems clear none qualify - if not because of bias, for the outdatedness, lack of coverage, and missing sources everywhere.
 * Kingsif (talk) 03:04, 8 February 2021 (UTC)