Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Textile Arts/Archive 1

This archive page contains comments up to July 10, 2007.

Fundamental topics and portal
Before we can design a portal, we need to agree on which topics are fundamental to our project. Here's my thoughts on a basic list, please add items and comment. (I would think that anything on the fundamental list would also be "Top" importance by default).

Fundamental (top importance) topics

 * Sewing
 * Knitting
 * Weaving
 * Embroidery
 * Needlework
 * Textile
 * Crochet
 * Lace (there's a defunct project on this with its own portal)
 * Yarn

What else is fundamental? (Someone agrees - all but two of these were already tagged as "top" importance when I went to check. Have so tagged the others.) - PKM 18:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've created the portal. Add to it as necessary. --Eyrian 20:32, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Looked at it and — you rock. Amazing work; William Morris is a great choice, and also dear to my heart for his work in furniture and calligraphy. Now I need to figure out how Portals work, since I've never really explored one before... Willow 02:15, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh good not just me. I did a "did you know" - and if anyone has a better idea for the featured image, change away! - PKM 04:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Would Spinning also be fundamental?--Alizera
 * I think so. --Eyrian 05:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree. Oh yes! - PKM 19:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Listing the portal
It appears we should list it in Portal/Directory. - PKM 04:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Defining importance
How shall we define TOP, HIGH, MID and LOW importance? Here's a suggestion - please comment:

Top: Fundamental topics like sewing, yarn

High: Types of embroidery or lace, or major subcategories, or important tools or concepts; for example Embroidery stitch, Sewing machine, loom, needlelace.
 * I would be interested in discussing whether these should also be Top, and High/Mid should both apply to the next category as editors choose. - PKM
 * I don't think so. The basic techniques are absolutely essential to people's understanding of the subject. Top should be reserved for things that encompass entire fields of the art. --Eyrian 20:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Mid: Styles or trends, tools, individual stitches: Button, warp (weaving), Point de Venise, Art needlework.

Low:Technical topics, such as only an expert would be likely to appreciate? I'm not sure what that'd cover here, though. Perhaps non-standard styles of weaving, highly decorative/complicated knitting stitches, farthingales, details of men's tailoring, that sort of thing? For example, twill weave might be of Mid importance, but an exotic and amazingly cool Jacquard from the 17th century might be "Low". What do you all think? Great work, BTW! :) Willow 02:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That's how I've been using it. For instance, coutil is a very esoteric and specific fabric. Looks like a lot of the less-common forms of lace get dumped in there as well. --Eyrian 02:15, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's how I've been using it, too. &mdash; DroEsperanto 16:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Looking over the assessments other people have done, I'm seeing a big disparity between how I would've assessed importance and how others are doing so. When I read the def'n of Low as "Subject is mainly of specialist interest", I think of things like specific stitch techniques and patterns—such as Ikat, Holbein stitch, Bobble (knitting), Berlin wool work).  If those are Mid then I'm hard-pressed to imagine what would actually be Low.  I also see a number of High-ranked pages that I would certainly expect to be lower (although not as often, and the Top ones I mostly much agree with).  So, I'd amend the listing as follows:


 * Top: Fundamental topics like sewing, yarn—the major categories of textile arts, and the tools and materials which are used in multiple such categories.


 * High: The largest subcategories of the fundamental categories, either as currently practiced (e.g. Fair Isle (technique), Cross-stitch) or of notable historical significance (not sure of examples here). Also, the main page on the history of each fundamental category (e.g. History of knitting).  Any tool that is sine qua non for a fundamental category (e.g. Knitting needle). Persons of great historical significance within an entire category (e.g. Elizabeth Zimmermann).


 * Mid: Any other subcats of the fundamentals (e.g. Double knitting, Bobbin lace), or overall textile categories that are nevertheless of mostly historic or academic interest (e.g. Nålebinding). Other tools commonly used (e.g. Knitting gauge, Thimble).  People specifically associated with a style (e.g. Marianne Kinzel for knitted lace).  Techniques and universal patterns that are well-known but perhaps not immediately relevant to someone learning about the art rather than how to do the art (e.g. English knitting).


 * I tagged Berlin wool work as Mid importance because of its historical significance, though no one does it today. I've been tagging "core" embroidery stitches like Chain stitch as High, although I see I tagged Buttonhole stitch as Mid which is probably inconsistent since it's fundamental in sewing, embroidery and lace-making.  I'm all for a consensus. - PKM 02:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Low: Tools that probably wouldn't deserve their own WP page unless someone rustles up some interesting historical variations or something (e.g. Stitch counter). Specific techniques that are uncommon enough that you would expect to see a sidebar explaining them to come with any pattern that used them (e.g. Picot stitch, Bobble (knitting)).  Regional styles that may be very distinctive but which aren't even well known to practitioners outside that region (e.g. Ikat).  Other people involved in the textile arts.


 * Sorry that so many of my examples are tied into knitting; that's just my main area of expertise here. I would like to see examples in other areas—people can often generalise from examples better than they can grok an abstract description. /blahedo (t) 21:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

A sort of short textile stub
Textile Museum is very close to me, even though I have never visited it. I gather it is very interesting. And the article here is so so short !--Filll 00:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey Filll, welcome to our new little home! Anything you'd like to add about the Textile Museum or any other topic would be great. :) Willow 02:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Maintaining the portal
I don't have much experience with portals - do the Category lists etc. get maintained by hand or is there a Trick I don't know about? - PKM 00:29, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems they need to be maintained by hand. I've tried to add the important ones. --Eyrian 01:22, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Portal selected biography
I picked William Morris, largely from convenience (he seemed to have a good article). If anyone else wants to replace him, I'd love to hear suggestions. --Eyrian 01:22, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * William Morris is perfect, thank you. - PKM 03:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Clothing
Are all articles on clothing and fashion design within the scope of this project? - PKM 17:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think they should be. Insofar as clothing requires textiles, some of the fringe articles should be shared, but adding clothing to the project might blow the scope wide open. It's important to remain focused on the articles that center around textiles and their production. --Eyrian 17:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with that, actually. I think the portal is shaping up nicely and we have a good-sized scope to work in.  At some point, I'd like to see a sister project on clothing and fashion design, but there are huge gaps there and big questions around categories and hierarchies. Willow, would you agree with that? - PKM 02:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I do notice that WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology has over 3800 articles in it! Perhaps we can make a daughter project once we get our fundamentals cleaned up? - PKM 23:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, a relatively new user, Tameeria, has been tagging hundreds of articles at WP:MCB, so that we have an embarrassment of riches over there right now; it's wonderful work! A lot of them, though, are on very specific molecules, which might be akin to us creating a page for every knitting stitch covered by Barbara G. Walker.


 * I'd originally intended to have both clothing/fashion and knitting/weaving/sewing/etc. under one Wikiproject, for two reasons. Mainly, I was worried about user attrition over time, and thought that one larger WikiProject might be easier to keep alive, rather than two smaller ones.  As a minor concern, I wasn't sure if there were enough active editors that would agree to commit to a WikiProject Clothing and Fashion Design; I probably needn't have worried on that score, though.  Build it and they will come — or at least we will. ;)


 * There might be a few boundary topics such as "topstitching", say, but both WikiProjects can cover them; the more the merrier! :)


 * I think it would be wonderful to have two sister WikiProjects, ideally coordinated with one another. Perhaps we should submit another proposal to the WikiProject Council?   Once it's approved, I'd be glad to set up the Mathbot to track the new project's assessments; he's my pal! ;) Willow 23:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That sounds great, though it means my attention will be further split! We need more bots. - PKM 23:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Since this was written, another team has started WikiProject Fashion, which will cover all aspects of clothing. The project is vast and in need of editors; if anyone can help please sign up! - PKM 17:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Organization
Willow - question on the project page: "Article Worklist" links to WikiProject Textile Arts/Organization which confuses me. And what would be the difference between "Article Worklist" and "Project tasks"? I have started populating the to-do list and started the Project Tasks page. - PKM 23:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The worklist was meant as a categorization of our assessed articles; see the MCB example. Properly, it should do directly to the Worklist sub-page.  But none of us are sure how the worklist bot works, so perhaps it's best to leave our worklist languish for the moment. ;) You're all doing great stuff; it's wonderful to see the project taking off. I have to run now, but I'll try to do some more late tonight. Ta ta, Willow 00:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Ha! Okay.  Have I created any pages by hand that should be created by bots?  Oops if so. - PKM 03:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration of the Month
I assume that this would start up some time soon, since it's nearing the end of the month. Is anyone up to the challenge of getting this organized? DroEsperanto 18:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. What's it to be? --Eyrian 19:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * How about yarn (which also covers "thread")? It's common to all textile arts, and might be relatively easy to improve.  What do others think? Willow 20:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yarn sounds like a great first COTM. It's something that all of us more-or-less have experience in, since, like you said, is common to all textile arts. We'd just have to make sure we keep out cruft in the form of links to places to buy yarn and stuff. :3 DroEsperanto 21:41, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me too. - PKM 23:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm in, too. --Eyrian 02:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going off to see my sister and her new baby for a week, but I'll collaborate on Yarn once I get back. Good luck and have fun!  Looking forward to working with you all, Willow 13:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey guys, it's July... are we still on Yarn, or are we picking a new one? Ornith 05:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Textile manufacturing terminology
This article seems to be an explosion of redefinitions. What should be done with it? --Eyrian 22:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I hadn't noticed that article before, but it's a little concerning to me; could the text be plagiarized from somewhere? We should check that somehow.  Otherwise, it seems like a good worklist for us. :) Willow 13:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the article is a list of terms, and it is so because of me. I found it shortly after I started editing, and wasn't sure what to do with it, only that something needed to be done. The terms included were ones that there were articles and stubs on, or other terms I know. The text mainly was copied over from articles or stubs, and I only actually wrote a small portion. I don't know what should be done with it- it has expanded a lot from what I originally had and is really very long, and most of the terms have an article of sorts now. Maybe if we could insure that each term has its own article, and that it is a good article, we wouldn't need it? Loggie 19:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Templates
I think it might be nice to have some navigation templates for textile arts articles. I've made a few before (barding and Elements of Medieval armor), and it'd be relatively straightforward to make more. What sorts of boxes would be useful? Techniques? Tools? --Eyrian 18:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I have created weaving and started linking it in. Comments and expansion welcome. - PKM 19:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not happy with the label "components" for textiles, yarn, warp, and weft. Has anyone got a better idea? - PKM 22:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Also made spinning - PKM 22:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * And fabric - PKM 19:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Knitting peer review
Hey, guys! I've requested a peer review for knitting here. I'd appreciate any feedback you guys have, so feel free to join in. – Dok(talk 16:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Did anything happen with this? - PKM 02:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC) SeeTalk:Knitting for results. - PKM 21:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Textile artists?
Hi, I am an overactive WP Films gnome, but have lived many years with an Austrian textile artist, who is also member of the Kunstlerhaus. I have done for her a bilingual (German-English) website, http://www.cc-textile-art.com and I could also make an article if I ever get a short break from Films. I just found your project by chance, so I wanted to ask you if your scope encompasses textile artists as well and if you think this artist passes notability criteria to have an article. Please, let me know. Hoverfish Talk 23:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I just noticed this is the to-do page, so please move this where it is more appropriate. Hoverfish Talk 23:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Clothing brands
Hello all, I'm from the sister WikiProject Fashion. I come to you to ask for your general opinion about a problem we have. There are several categories of clothing brands that could be considered as redundant, and as some concern clothing manufacturers and textile companies I wanted to have your opinion : I'm not doubting the relevance of each of these but I think we could find a better system to reduce the number of categories or at least improve their clarity, as it is now it's really not user friendly. Now, if you don't believe this is part of your scope of expertise, just tell me. Otherwise I'd like to have your opinion on what we could do to improve the categorization of clothing brands, I wouldn't want to modify stuff without your approval. I'll try to come up with a reasonable solution in the meantime.
 * Category:Clothing and textile companies
 * Category:Clothing brands
 * Category:Clothing manufacturers
 * Category:Clothing retailers

Thanks for your time! Thiste 15:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * If you're just looking for simplicity, all you need is Category: Clothing companies and Category: Textile companies. --Eyrian 17:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's almost ok as it is. I've made a couple of minor changes -
 * Category:Clothing brands added as a subcat of Category:Clothing and textile companies, in line with a similar structure used for Category:Shoe companies
 * Category:Shoe companies added as a subcat of Category:Clothing and textile companies.
 * If you can see a better way of doing it, be bold and change it. But why do you think it isn't user friendly? Bards 17:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to reorganise Category:Textiles
I have an urge to classify the 195 articles in Category:Textiles into a number of sub-categories. Any suggestions on how to do this would be welcome. eg. Category:Fabrics and Category:Weaves, and maybe a few others -? Bards 17:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Good plan! I have created weaving and will coordinate with your Category:Weaves. - PKM 19:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * How would this work as a hierarchy?
 * Textiles
 * Fibres (wool, silk, linen, etc.)
 * Yarn (yarn, rope, embroidery floss, etc.)
 * Fabrics (damask, satin, tartan, tweed, etc.)
 * Techniques (netting, spinning, weaving, knitting, tapestry, dyeing, etc.)


 * I'm not sure how we'd classify ikat or batik in this hierarchy. And many of these items would actually be subcategories (yarn, knitting, weaving) with their own navigation boxes.


 * Thoughts? - PKM 21:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi PKM :) Thanks for the reply, it's useful to have someone else on board!


 * I found an existing category for Category:Fibers elsewhere and linked it into Category:Textiles. It was already quite well organised, but I've moved around quite a few things to improve it. It sorts into synthetics, and various natural forms (animal hair, fiber plants, etc). I also created Category:Textile patterns to hold articles which are mainly superficial and often be printed onto plain fabrics, such as plaid and paisley.


 * Yarn looks useful, if there is enough to go into it. But there may be a lot of overlap with Fibres. I also like Techniques - but what to call it? Maybe "Textile production" or "Textile manufacture"?


 * Category:Fabrics would comprise the bulk of the articles, and I've been wondering how to divide them into subcategories. Category:Synthetic fabrics might be a good start. But I am dithering over the others - any ideas?


 * Bards 13:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd go for Synthetics as a subcat of fibers, but I am leery of organizing fabric that way. Challis can be made of wool, mohair, rayon, or a blend, but it's still characteristically challis.  Ditto muslin, percale, pique, tweed...tweed is traditionally a wool fabric, but there are silk tweeds, and wool-nylon-polyester blend tweeds.  OTOH, noil is always silk (I think - but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a blend out there calling itself noil).  And historical fabrics are worse.  We think of damask as linen, but there used to be wool damasks.


 * So I am not sure how to subcategorize fabric, beyond an instinct to do it by structure rather than fibre. We could lump brocade, damask, etc. into "figured fabrics" (meaning woven); "striped and checked" fabrics for gingham, tartan, ticking; chintz could be "printed fabrics" (but what about a poly-cotton blend printed with a tartan pattern? what about calico, which is usually thought of as printed in the US but used to be - and maybe still is - roughly the same as muslin in the UK?)


 * I think ultimately fabrics need to be organized by weaving method or structure. Maybe we might get away with a very few subcats:
 * woven-figured fabrics (damask, brocade)
 * basic woven fabrics (muslin, calico, monkscloth) but not "plain-woven" as that's a specific weave
 * non-woven fabrics (felt, pellon)
 * pile fabrics (velvet, velour, corduroy)
 * textured fabrics (pique, repp)


 * - PKM 16:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Those look good, but I might be inclined to simplify as follows. Bear in mind that you seem to be more of an expert on the subject than me, but once I get going I'll learn quickly ;) Various websites eg. here categorise all fabrics into 3 types: as woven, nonwoven and knitted. So,
 * Woven fabrics. No need to state "basic" or to distinguish it from "plain".
 * Nonwoven fabrics. Scores slightly more hits on google than the hyphenated word.
 * Figured fabrics - from definition here, mainly (only?) concerns wovens, and excludes printed. So no need to state "woven". It could be a subcat of "woven".
 * Pile fabrics should be a subcat of "woven" -?
 * Other subcats of "woven"?
 * Knitted fabrics. Knitted includes anything loose and stretchy made by interlocking parallel rows, rather than cross-weaving the yarn to hold it firmly in place. Eg. nets.
 * We could also introduce other misc useful categories, where articles may appear in one of the above, plus none or any of these: eg. Waterproof fabrics or Outdoor fabrics, Textured fabrics (as a misc, rather than a main, cat -?), and others -?
 * Bards 13:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. Let's start with your basic three, with "figured" and "pile" as subcats of "woven".  I'd also add "printed" as a subcat of "woven" for chintz if nothing else. - PKM 18:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've created another template fabric for this, but not started deploying yet. Feel free to tweak as needed. - PKM 19:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed! I like the 'fabric' template. Will begin reorganising soonish. Am quite busy at the moment, so it might not be properly under way until next week. Bards 22:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Me too, but I'll do what I can. - PKM 00:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I've started recategorizing and adding the template as I work on things. Much to do. P.S. I did everything in the template B-F, have to run now. Boy howdy, a lot of these articles on fabrics need work! See Burlap. - PKM 18:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I've started aswell. See below. Bards 19:57, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll follow behind and add missing fabrics to the template, but not tonight. (Anyone else can jump in and work on this as well.  I won't mind.) - PKM 03:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I have created and populated Category:Notions and its subcat Category:Textile closures. Initially using the lists in Sewing, but the job got bigger the more I looked, and I pulled in a lot of articles from Category:Fasteners and Category:Parts of clothing, both of which have become parent cats. There are probably more "notions" scattered around which could be added. Bards 17:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The Ever-Changing List of Doubtful Things
I aim to keep an ever-changing list here, of article & cats which need to be resolved. Feel free to edit the list, adding or subtracting your own notes. Bards 19:57, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Lace where should it go as a 'fabric'? NB: it also has a category, Category:Lace.


 * Taxonomy is hard! Okay, thinking: I would classify hand-made laces under needlwork rather than fabric.  But machine-made laces are different - most are woven and a (very) few are knitted.  (And some are embroidered on a ground fabric.) And we also have Net (textile) and bobbinet to classify.  They are all related.  I'd throw them into woven fabrics for now, but I'd like to hear from other folks on this. - PKM 21:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Chenille fabric : Chenille is both a specialty yarn and a fabric.  I don't think that chenille yarn is related at all to chenille fabric beyond being fuzzy, but I'd have to research that or defer to a yarn expert.  For now I have added chenille fabric to the fabric template. - PKM 02:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Brick stitch and Quillwork were both categorized as embroidery and I have included them that way in the template, but I wonder if they belong rather with beadwork and if beadwork is another subcategory of embroidery or its own thing one level up under needlework. Suggestions? - PKM 02:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Category:Beadwork might interest you. Maybe it needs to be linked into the Textiles hierarchy. Bards 13:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Quillwork does appear to be a form of embroidery, sometimes with beads added on top? - images. I think it should be in both "Beadwork" and "Embroidery", as it is a combination of them. Bards 14:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There's also a brick stitch that is a variant of satin stitch. Will add to article sometime. - PKM 19:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Have been adding to Category:Nonwoven fabrics, various flexible plastic sheets often used in the textile arts, such as scotchlite, PVC, latex, tyvek. I think they should be here somewhere. But not sure if they can be called 'fabrics'. Bards 16:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Fabric seems to be defined as a textile material. So, perhaps bonded fiber material like Tyvek might count, it is unlikely that latex and PVC would. --Eyrian 18:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed - they are not "textiles", nor "fabrics". I will leave them there until I can see how to link them up. On a similar theme, there is also Leather and Fur to think about. My plan is to have one category, or a few obviously related and linked categories, for anyone aiming to look at all flexible sheets from which clothing, linens, etc can be made. This includes all textiles, some plastics, animal hides, and perhaps others - maybe as one parent category. Bards 12:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Temporary list of substances in this group: Neoprene (wetsuits etc), Latex (rubber), PVC and Rubber (fetish, surgical, household). Other related articles include Scotchlite, Fake fur, animal hides Leather and Fur, tree barks Velours du Kasaï (the old form), Cedar bark textile and Tapa cloth. Not in this group: Tyvek (technical fabric; a treated woven).


 * Applique - Bards, I am not sure I'd categorize applique under "notions". I am thinking applique, patchwork, and quilting all belong together in a category (they are really intersecting sets), but I am not sure what to call it.  Ideas? - PKM 21:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The expanding list of ex-doubtful things
Mini discussions moved from the ever-changing list (above), due to being no longer doubtful.


 * Wondering about creating "Net fabrics", to include eg. Fishnet (material), Net (textile) (as yet unclassified), Bobbinet, Needlerun Net. These seem to be distinct and identifiable forms of fabric. But difficult decision because some are knitted and some are woven. Unsure whether to include highly open-weave fabrics with them. Bards 14:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I like that. Let's do it.  I'll update the template. - PKM 02:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Ikat, is it a Printed fabric or a Figured fabric? Bards 16:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Figured. There is no printing or after-painting. It is arranged and woven like other figured fabrics. --Eyrian 18:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Updated. Bards 09:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Considering making a category called "Technical fabrics", to hold high-performance, usually modern synthetic fabrics used in sportwear and sports goods. Such as Goretex, Smartwool, Silnylon, SympaTex and many others. I am not sure yet how to define the category, except that they seem to form a natural group and are commonly known as "technical fabrics". Today's technical fabric may be tomorrow's rayon bedsheet, so it may only be a transient grouping. Bards 14:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Also like this plan. - PKM 02:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Created Category:Technical fabrics and main article Technical fabric. The main article was promptly injured by a speedy-deletion tag, stuck on by an admin less than 2 minutes after I submitted the 1st draft, before I had finished editing it. The reasons for speedy are no longer valid, but you know what some admins are like. So it might disappear. Doh. (This is entertainment for all the family). Bards 14:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Added Technical and Netted fabrics sections to the template . Added some of the missing wovens, but there are tons (go Bards!), can't get them all tonight. - PKM 03:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice job, PKM (go PKM!) ;) Bards 12:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Wondering about linking in Category:Linens and Category:Clothing (and others) as a subcat of textiles. Or should it be the other way around; or some other structure? Bards 18:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Linens are textiles made from flax fibers. They should be subcat. Clothing isn't necessarily made from textiles, even though the vast majority are. It isn't a subcat. --Eyrian 18:51, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Category:Linens is defined in wiki as household fabrics such as towels, bed sheets, etc; this is different to the fabric Linen, from which they used to be made. Bards 22:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry. In that case, I'd still say that they're a subcat, as they refer to textiles. --Eyrian 07:09, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ok, "linens" is now a subcat of "textiles", but clothing isn't. Bards 08:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * (parallel reply to Eyrian). Is it wiki policy for each subcat to be a strict subset of the parent cat in every case? Perhaps I am imagining it, but I'm sure I've seen categories which rejoin the hierarchy as partial subsets of 2+ parent cats. Bards 22:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Certainly not policy. It might be a Manual of Style thing... I think they are generally supposed to be subsets. It makes sense from an informational point of view. Some things are the natural recurving together of disparate ideas that separated much up the chain, but when it's only partial? It seems to me that is asking for a different form of organization. One doesn't really think of clothing as a subset of textiles, do they? They're certainly made of them, but bridges are hardly subcategories of concrete and steel. --Eyrian 07:09, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ok, you are probably right. Bards 08:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Palampore is a dyed and hand-painted fabric. Does it fit in Category:Printed fabrics, or do we need another cat for eg. "Painted fabrics"? Bards 22:16, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh let's be thorough and make a cat for painted fabrics. Maybe someone will be inspired to do a survey article on them. - PKM 06:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ok, done. I've also put Chintz in there, as it can be painted or printed. Bards 08:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Chiffon (fabric) is described as "woven as a stretch-knit", but I can't find a good definition of this. Is it weaving, or knitting? Bards 17:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a poor definition. Chiffon is a balanced plain-woven sheer woven of alternate S- and Z-twist crepe (high-twist) yarns (per Kadolph, Textiles).  The twist in the crepe yarns puckers the fabric slightly in both directions after weaving, giving it some stretch. Categorize it as woven and I'll put it on my mental cleanup list (the list of fabric articles needing work is getting very very long). - PKM 06:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you could improve that article in a jiffy, by transcribing what you just wrote :o Bards 07:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Done with a few more tweaks. ;-) -PKM 21:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar
I made a barnstar for Textile Arts work, The Cross stitched barnstar, and presented it to User:PKM for her excellent contributions. I'd encourage others to award it to deserving individuals, as well. --Eyrian 04:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Any objections to listing this as the official project barnstar? --Eyrian 19:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No objections here!! - PKM 18:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

And I just awarded one to Bards for Taxonomy Above and Beyond the Call of Duty. - PKM 21:25, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've listed it on the Wikiproject awards page. If anyone here who actually cross-stitches wanted to take a photo of a genuine article, that'd be really incredible, but I think it looks nice as it is. --Eyrian 21:36, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I love the barnstar just like it is (and I had to look really close to be sure it wasn't embroidered). I have added it under "awards" in the Project Standards section on our project page (right column). - PKM 02:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * many thanks :) I've never had a barnstar before. Bards 14:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Knitting template
Help. I've started a knitting template knitting but I need help from someone who knows more about knitting than I do to put more links in the right groups. I expect this to be a big template, and I can make a bigger image if we need it. - PKM 17:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Well here are most of the knitting related links, and an attempt to arrange them. I think the 'techniques' section might want to be broken down into more than one section, and the 'random' section needs to be modified. Loggie 19:07, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Tools and Materials: Knitting needle, Yarn

Styles: Continental knitting vs. English knitting vs. Combined knitting. Weft knitting vs. Warp knitting. Circular vs. Flat.

Random: Basic knitted fabrics, Complete garment knitting machine, Fully fashioned knitting machine, gauge, History of knitting, Knitted fabric, Knitting abbreviations, Knitting machine, Selvage (knitting), Steek, Stocking frame

Stitches: Decrease, Dip stitch, elongated stitch, Increase, Plaited stitch, Yarn over

Techniques: Basketweave, Bead knitting, Bias knitting, Binding off, Bobble, Brioche knitting, Buttonhole, Cables, Casting on, Double knitting, Drop-stitch knitting, Entrelac, Faggoting, Fair Isle, Finger knitting, Gather, Grafting, Hemming, Intarsia, Lace, Medallion knitting, Picking up stitches, Pleat, Ribbing, Shadow knitting, Short row, Slip-stitch knitting, Spool knitting, Tuck, Uneven knitting, Weaving, Welting

Patterns: Aran, Argyle
 * Thanks, Loggie, very helpful. - PKM 20:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for making the templates- I like the organization they give. Loggie 21:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Glad you like them! I have reworked knitting based on your suggestions, and I pulled "machine knitting" into its own group.  As always, feel free to tweak the template to make more sense, but I think we could start using it now. I will put it on the main article knitting but that's it for me probably until the weekend. - PKM 03:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I just saw the first usage of the knitting template — it's fantastic! :D I'm sorry that I've been AWOL so long; there's lots of other things and people tugging at my sleeves.  I'll try to come back and at least tag my own articles.  Thanks again very much; it looks beautiful! :) Willow 22:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Welcome back, Willow! Glad you like the templates. This project has a frightening number of articles in it these days.  :-) - PKM 04:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Standardizing
User:Fred Bradstadt has updated weaving to use a more standard format. I've asked him if he can do the others to match, and we can adopt that look going forward. - PKM 17:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * And User:Fred Bradstadt and User:Eyrian have updated them, included lace_types - thanks all! - PKM 16:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Embroidery
We have an embroidery template now. I have made my best guess as to which styles are sufficiently mainstream to be categorized under "styles" and which should be under "historical and regional". Essentially, if it's in the Readers Digest Complete Guide to Needlework I am considering it mainstream, but I am open to suggestions. - PKM 21:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've added the nav box to all of the embroidery styles and stitches in the template. - PKM 00:51, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Fabric template crowding
To me, the "woven" section of the Fabric template is getting a bit crowded. Perhaps it could be subdivided a little? Bards, you seem to love that sort of thing... --Eyrian 07:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Any ideas for subdividing Wovens would be welcome. Bards 08:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we need to assess whether all of those articles meet the "notability" criteria (or ever will). Many of them are merest definitions.  I am thinking we might try to group like things chambray and oxford (cloth) under Shirting fabrics, with redirects, and then drop the individual fabrics from the template. We can also break out "figured fabrics" and "pile fabrics" to match the subcats. - PKM 18:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I broke out figured and pile wovens and added a second image. - PKM 19:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Sewing template
It's a mere shell sewing, but we can build it out. Sewing is more than a shell now, but still needs work. Brain is turning to mush. Please feel free to move things. - PKM 02:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Textile arts template
Textile arts, for top-level survey articles like needlework, and things like textile preservation, etc. - PKM 23:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Should I add a section "textile artists" or "artists and designers" (or "people"?) to this one, for folks active in more than one art (like William Morris)? - PKM 01:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Small templates and to-do's
This may be going overboard, but we have Textile museums and they are all linked in.

Still to do:
 * Dyeing (need to think about that one - every chemical dye?) Started dyeing
 * Tapestry (a small one, lots of work can be done in this category)
 * Crochet (a small one) Done and linked in: crochet

Are carpets and rugs within our purview? - PKM 01:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd say so. – DroEsperanto(talk 01:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Quilting etc.
New template Layered textiles for quilting, patchwork, applique, etc. Our quilting coverage needs lots of work. I am open to a better name for these overlapping crafts. - PKM 20:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Featured article
So, I notice that not a single article on our list is featured. That makes me a little sad. Therefore, I think we should all try and collaborate and get at least one up to the required standards. We should probably work on one from our articles of top importance. Anyone have any good ideas for which to pick? Perhaps, for morale, something that's maybe low-hanging fruit? --Eyrian 23:19, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Great idea. Having just added navboxes to 36 embroidery articles, I am a bit daunted by how much work we have to do on even the most basic topics (like running stitch).  But, to take a positive approach, may I suggest darning? - PKM 00:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I remember we had a collaboration of the month once for Yarn, because it was a topic we are all more-or-less familiar with. I think that might be a good idea. Although I could help something like darning, too, I suppose; copyediting and organization and citations and stuff. Alright, I'm going to just admit my bias on this subject and say that I would really like to see Knitting get to FA status (or at least GA). :) – DroEsperanto(talk 14:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll support that, but I can't help much, because I know little about it. - PKM 18:55, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I tagged textile preservation for our project yesterday, and it's on the homepage as a DYK today. I have invited the author, Fullera, who appears to be new, to join our merry band. - PKM 03:37, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Cochineal
I just tagged cochineal for our project, and it was previously a FA, so we have one by acquisition. - PKM 03:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested photos
In order to coordinate photos, I've created a category for TA articles needing photos. Please tag the talk page with, which will add the article to Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of textile arts materiel. --Eyrian 18:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks! - PKM 02:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration of the Month: Yarn Revisited
I've started some work on Yarn; there's lots of good commentary on what's needed in Talk:Yarn and I have added my two cents and started a to-do list there. - PKM 21:12, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This is fantastic. Thank you! On a related note (and this is for everyone), do you know of any good resource (preferably online) that could be cited in the article? I'm having trouble finding any, and I'd also like to be able to expand my knowledge of the topic of yarn in general before contributing extensively to the article. – DroEsperanto(talk 02:02, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll look for a good online source. The canonical textbook seems to be Kadolph, Sara J., ed.: Textiles, 10th edition, Pearson/Prentice-Hall, 2007, ISBN 0-13-118769-4, p. 63 (or any edition, really; they are available used all over the place).  This book is almost entirely focused on contemporary commercial manufacture with no sense of history, which I find very annoying. :-) - PKM 23:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a really good introduction to Yarn: http://www.madehow.com/Volume-3/Yarn.html - PKM 21:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice! Thanks a ton! – DroEsperanto(talk 03:49, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Dyeing
I've been looking over the articles on dyeing. Dye seems to focus (quite properly) on the chemical end of things, while Dyeing is about dyeing textiles. I think this is a useful distinction, but Dyeing skims past natural dyes (no mention of indigo or madder, even). It needs to be expanded, and I think we could use either natural dyes or history of dyeing, or both, when someone has time and the inclination. - PKM 03:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Bards, if you are looking for things to do (big grin), needs some organization - the subcats are good but lots of individual dyes are at the parent level not in their proper subcats. - PKM 03:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Plying
There's an outstanding merge suggestion for ply and plying since January. I suggest we merge the textile info and illustrations into plying (consistent with weaving, spinning, sewing) and perhaps make ply a disambiguation page. Comments welcome on the respective talk pages, or someone could just jump in and merge these puppies. - PKM 21:30, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Embroidery again
I've been doing some work with Embroidery, although I am staying away from the lead article embroidery for now. Just to keep everyone in the loop: PKM 22:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Created stub at embroidery thread and expanded Jacobean embroidery
 * Started clean up of embroidery stitch which still needs:
 * Reword the "how to" portions to be be more encyclopedic.
 * Remove some of the essay-like turns of phrase.
 * Building out detailed, illustrated articles on each class of stitches and linking them in as "main" references in embroidery stitch as they are written.
 * Done, more or less using a uniform structure, still need tweaks:
 * Backstitch
 * Buttonhole stitch
 * Chain stitch
 * Couching (embroidery) including laid work
 * Cross stitches (contrast with cross-stitch, see Talk:Cross stitches}
 * Satin stitch
 * To do:
 * Feather stitch (including fly stitch) Done. - PKM 22:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Knotted stitch Done. - PKM 22:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Build a library of stitch illustrations in the Commons in category:embroidery stitches - Well begun, but never finished! - PKM 22:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Add illustrations. We really need good photographs of stitches and techniques - there's not much in Flickr that's suitably licensed.

Looks like I picked a good time to jump in with Goldwork (embroidery). I think I've got the thread types and technique covered quite solidly, but could use some help with the historical end, and the or nue section badly wants a picture. We could also use a picture close-up enough to show the stitches. I think I have it linked in everywhere it really needs to be, but a double-check wouldn't hurt.

Would it be useful for me to create a picture of some shaded long-and-short stitch for Satin stitch? I've got a piece around I did, even if it's not necessarily the world's best stitching. Ornith 05:38, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Welcome, Ornith. Your article on goldwork (embroidery) is great! (And your timing is perfect - there was one redlink in couching (embroidery), for "metal thread", which I have now linked to your article.)  I've been trolling around the net trying to find the location and date on that goldwork-embroidered mantle (I agree with someone's blog post that it's almost certainly from a statue of the Virgin, based on the iconography, but Carolus takes photos all over Europe and rarely says much about them when he (?) uploads them).
 * Question, is or nue or or nué more common? I think I have seen both, but my French is abysmal.
 * Yes, a picture of shaded long-and-short stitch would be great.
 * I can add some more historical bits to the goldwork article; let me dig through my books.
 * At some point, I think Wikipedia needs a general article on ecclesiastical embroidery. Is that something you could start as a stub? - PKM 17:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Is this cope or nue? - PKM 23:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe the accented form is more correct, my bad, now fixed. I think that cope does indeed have or nué on the pope's robe, but it's a really bad shot for the purpose.
 * Let me talk to my boss about borrowing some of his books and maybe getting some images from him - I know he has some great or nué shots from a recent repair - and I'll see what I can do to start ecclesiastical embroidery (and the related page Beryl Dean) as more than a stub next week. In fact, I'll talk to my priest about taking pictures too - my church has some museum-quality historical stuff, especially things by Charles Eamer Kempe (I'm actually repairing a frontal he designed at work!).
 * I'll look into getting that shaded satin stitch picture up.
 * I think we were making those pages simultaneously... there wasn't a link to couching (embroidery) in the template when I started on goldwork (embroidery).
 * Good news: the welcome bot picked up goldwork (embroidery) as suitable for "did you know..." and someone commented on my talk page saying it's a good candidate. (I can't tell you how inordinately proud and happy it makes me that people feel this is a worthwhile article.) Anyone got a good idea for hook text so we can nominate it in the next couple days? Do we have control over "did you know..." on the project portal?Ornith 08:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I know how you feel about the bot picking up goldwork (embroidery) - it picked up cross stitches as well.
 * All your ideas for ecclesiastical embroidery sound terrific - thanks so much.
 * We have complete control of the DYK on our own portal - there's an edit link in the blue title bar of each section, on the right.
 * Hook suggestion: ...that passing, jaceron, purl and torsade are types of metal thread used in Goldwork embroidery?
 * I am just about to burn out on stitches, and will likely tackle Morris and Company textiles next, and a bio of J. H. Dearle. They did a lot of tapestry and embroidery for church use, as well as the stained glass that everyone knows about, so what we're working on may dovetail again.  My mini-vacation is almost over, so my output will be slowing down during the week. - PKM 17:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Also created straight stitch which I think completes the set except for adding world-wide examples and more illustrations. Whew! - PKM 20:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Submitted Goldwork (embroidery) for DYK with your hook suggestion. Should I put it on our portal?
 * Great work, PKM... you've done a ton! - Ornith 23:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Yes, by all means, update the portal - it's been sadly neglected. - PKM 17:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The portal has been updated with Goldwork (embroidery) and Couching (embroidery) - the latter of which is the top DYK on the main page!
 * I've got the or nué image I wanted from my boss and added it to the article, and will be getting books from him tomorrow. Still have to see about talking to my priest and make that satin stitch pic. - Ornith 00:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a terrific image - great work. -
 * And YIPPEEE on the DYK - may this project generate many, many more!PKM 00:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)