Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Thailand/Archives/2008

General notices

 * Wikipedia Commons is supposed to become a language-independent repository of copyright-free images. Photos which don't have any fitting article here yet can be uploaded there, for example to induce the creation of new articles. See Commons:Category:Thailand.
 * Please don't forget to add newly created articles to List of Thailand-related topics, which allows to monitor changes in the articles by simply checking
 * You may also want to monitor WikiProject Deletion sorting/Thailand for Thailand-related deletion discussions.

TAT to "improve" Thailand-articles here
Just noticed it on the FACT blog - the Tourism Authority of Thailand plans to edit articles about Thailand on Wikipedia and Wikitravel. While there are definitely a lot of articles in need of improving, this being done by a government agency is risky. So be VERY careful about POV edits, removal of criticism, etc. But try to do without biting them away, having them edit in accordance with our rules and style would be for our mutual interest. andy (talk) 09:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It seems like the first editors are already here, see the articles on Pathum Thani, Songkhla (where they even did not read that the article is about the town, not the province) and Phetchabun Province, where I had to do a lot of copyedit and deletion of duplications already. andy (talk) 12:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

You did great work, Andy. Should we try contact TAT directly about the issue? --PaePae | Talk 10:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I already sent an email to TAT yesterday, expressing my concern that editors without knowledge of the Wikipedia policies paid to put tourism-brochure texts would backfire into a publicity disaster, but also offering my help in getting TAT involved in a fruitful cooperation for our mutual interest. So far no reply yet :-( As I can only write in English it might help if someone can talk to them in Thai as well. andy (talk) 11:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Where did you send email to? It said to be from 'e-Marketing for Amazing Thailand 2008' campaign. I will contact them at amazingthailand@tat.or.th, writing one. --PaePae | Talk 04:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I saw this news as well, and was pretty concerned. I'm glad to see that others have noticed it, too, and are keeping a watchful eye. — WiseKwai 18:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your updated. I wonder if anyone taking care of Thai-related articles at wikitravel? I do not know any policy there. It would be good having someone familiar with wikitravel to deal with TAT together. --PaePae | Talk 04:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Response from born Distinction
I got a reply from born Distinction. They are a consultant company responsible for 'WIKI for Thailand Tourism' project. They said the project does not start making any modification with Wikipedia nor Wikitravel yet. So those edits should not be related to TAT.

However, I had addressed that these users might be a person from the project. They said it should be misunderstood among the participants. They will propose TAT to notice them about our concerns.


 * Special:Contributions/Yummyyok
 * Special:Contributions/Nakyim
 * Special:Contributions/Chakkapun


 * User:Borndistinction Special:Contributions/Borndistinction
 * Wikitravel: User:Borndistinction Special:Contributions/Borndistinction

They also provided schedule as below: As of now, phase 1-2-3 are in progress.
 * 1) By February 2008 - Found WIKI Working Committee.
 * 2) By February 2008 - Analyze and summarize what information to update and/or create.
 * 3) By May 2008 - Find and gather information.
 * 4) By July 2008 - Compile into draft version and upload to project's blog.
 * 5) By August 2008 - Verify draft for correctness and completeness. Modify and update into last version.
 * 6) By September 2008 - Publish on Wikipedia and Wikitravel.

WIKI Working Committee:
 * 1) Tourism Authority of Thailand.
 * 2) * Information technology office.
 * 3) * Information services division.
 * 4) * Public relation division.
 * 5) * TAT local offices around Thailand.
 * 6) * Some other TAT offices in Thailand.
 * 7) Tourism business associations and clubs all around Thailand.
 * 8) Education institutes.
 * 9) * Faculty of Tourism and Hospitality Industry, Rangsit University.
 * 10) * Faculty of Arts, Chulalongkorn University.
 * 11)  WIKIPedia User Experts.

They did sent invitation email to wiki experts writing about Thailand and got some feedbacks, almost foreigners. WIKI Mission for Thailand Tourism project will have an official press conference in March.

They are also inviting us to join the Working Committee for co-operation along the project. Anyone interested? --PaePae | Talk 08:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Announcement from TAT
Editions on WIKIPEDIA TAT has not started editing any article on WIKIPEDIA as yet whereas the articles about 3 provinces in Thailand, Pathumthani, Songkhla and Petchabun, are not edited by TAT.

Editions with the username borndistinction is just try to find out whether how it works but has not touched any content at all.

Editions on WIKITravel TAT has edited and created new content on few articles on WIKITravel already by consulting WIKITravel expert by proving them the authority and copyright of the content from TAT. --Borndistinction (talk) 08:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge with WikiProject Thai provinces
Yes I would strongly recommend mergin thai provinces with the main one  ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦       $1,000,000? 10:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If merging just means moving the project page to a subpage of the Thailand project - no problem with that, but I also don't see any real benefit of it. But that's not what I would call merge. But as most of the text on that project page is specific to the provinces, it won't fit into the Thailand project page. Besides, both the provinces and the districts make a nice separated subfield of this project, and with the new activity on the province articles by TAT (User:Borndistinction) a reactivation of the project with additional helpers would be possible. andy (talk) 20:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I just mean moving it to a sub page of the project  ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦       $1,000,000? 12:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Article tagging
Should Thailand articles currently tagged under WikiProject Southeast Asia be re-tagged under this project instead? It isn't clear to me whether this project is a subproject of WikiProject Southeast Asia itself, but if not, there would seem to be a great amount of overlapping scope.

If articles are transferred to this project, how should the quality and importance scales be treated? Is reassessment needed for all articles? - Paul_012 (talk) 14:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It's okay to leave in both. Badagnani (talk) 02:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

New userbox available
See WikiProject_Thailand. Badagnani (talk) 16:16, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Undiscussed page moves of Thai cities and provinces
See Special:Contributions/Borndistinction. Badagnani (talk) 11:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The guidelines at WikiProject Thai provinces have been there for quite some time. If no one else thinks they should be changed, these moves should be reverted. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)


 * In Thailand it is much more common to talk about the province than the city - so when someone just says "Nakhon Phanom" it usually means the province of that name, if meaning the town one says "Mueang Nakhon Phanom" (not to be confused with Amphoe Mueang, which is another different entity). Thus on Thai Wikipedia นครพนม is a redirect to the province; on the Dutch WP Nakhon Phanom is the disambiguation page. Those naming convention in the province project was formulated unilaterally by myself, and says nothing about the town, just the province, as that project was for the provinces only. And actually this move was discussed - by email between me and borndistinction, who is editing on behalf of the Tourism Authority to add more information into the province articles. andy (talk) 20:42, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Thailand in the Dutch Empire
Hello everyone! There is a discussion at Talk:Dutch Empire, because user Red4tribe has made a map of the Dutch Empire (Image:Dutch Empire 4.png) that includes significative parts of Thailand. Would you like to comment? Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 15:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Tom kha pladuk
The Tom kha pladuk article has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Archive of May 2008
I basically archived everything before 2008, since the page was hopelessly backlogged (some discussions haven't been resolved after 3 years). If anyone would like to revive a topic or request, please do so. --Paul_012 (talk) 15:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Draft Guidelines for Lists of companies by country - Feedback Requested
Within WikiProject Companies I am trying to establish guidelines for all Lists of companies by country, the implementation of which would hopefully ensure a minimum quality standard and level of consistency across all of these related but currently disparate articles. The ultimate goal is the improvement of these articles to Featured List status. As a WikiProject that currently has one of these lists within your scope, I would really appreciate your feedback! You can find the draft guidelines here. Thanks for your help as we look to build consensus and improve Wikipedia! - Richc80 (talk) 14:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Quick romanization request
I've been looking for an online tool to help me romanize the title of a Thai comics title. I found one but there seems to be some sort of encoding conflict and it's not working for me. I was hoping someone here might be able to recommend something? In the meantime, would anyone be willing to transliterate the following title for me? ตุลาการทมิฬ ฉบับพิเศษ I really appreciate it - thanks! -- hamu♥hamu ( TALK ) 20:27, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I use thai2english.com a lot - and sometimes thai-language.com is very useful. The first link transliterates your text as " dtòo laa gaan tá-mil chà-bàp pí-sèt". The second link transliterates as "dtoo(L)-laa(M)-gaan(M) tha(H)-min(M) cha(L)-bap(L) phi(H)-saeht(L)" PalawanOz (talk) 07:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for the links and your help! -- hamu♥hamu ( TALK ) 07:26, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * thai2english.com Dictionary page has added towards the bottom Generate Phonemic Transcription for Thai Text: t-l Enhanced, Phonemic Thai, IPA, RTGS, AUA, ALA-LC, or Bua Luang. Also, the bottom of every dictionary definition page has a link to submit a correction, comment, or addition. Pawyilee (talk) 07:51, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:THAI Tagging
An user Badagnani had placed a Bot request for Tagging articles WikiProject Thailand from Thai related categories. TinucherianBot have autotagged around 1204 new articles. Categories used can be found here .This is FYI --  TinuCherian  (Wanna Talk?) - 18:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
 * The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
 * The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
 * A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot  ( Disable )  21:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Public holidays in Thailand
Dunno if this is the write place for this; if not, tell me where to go. Public holidays in Thailand was re-written by me to add introductory text before the plain table that was there before; tweak that table which basically was correct; and add a new topic, Other national observances. Five days on the new table need attention:
 * January 25 Royal Thai Armed Forces Day.
 * February 14 Valentine Day as observed in Thailand.
 * August Thetsagarn Sart.
 * August Thetsagarn Jeen.
 * September Moon Festival (Buddhist), or Thetsagarn Wan wâi Prá Jahn, Thai: เทศกาลวันไหว้พระจันทร์ in case somebody knows a better translation.

Help! Pawyilee (talk) 09:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * From what I know, and comparing with the Thai Wikipedia:
 * The Royal Thai Armed Forces Day has been moved to 18 January since last year.
 * Thetsagarn Sart (RTGS Sat), is known as วันสารทไทย (Wan Sat Thai) to differentiate it from สารทจีน. I suggest moving the article to something with "Festival" or "Day" instead of "Thetsagarn" (e.g. Sart Festival).
 * วันสารทจีน (RTGS Sat Chin) (in the 7th Chinese lunar month) corresponds to Ghost Festival, and is different from เทศกาลกินเจ (RTGS Kin Che; in the 9th Chinese lunar month), which has the articles Vegetarian Festival and Nine Emperor Gods Festival. I don't think the term "Thetsagarn Jeen" exists.
 * Thetsagarn Wan wâi Prá Jahn corresponds to Mid-Autumn Festival.
 * For future reference, you might like to try searching the Thai Wikipedia and find corresponding inter-language links to determine English names of Thai words. --Paul_012 (talk) 04:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup
Currently, 2230 articles are assigned to this project, of which 406, or 18.2%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 2008-07-14.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place a template on your project page.

If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 16:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Table of contents
Wikipedia's page that serves as a table of contents for its Thailand content is the the List of basic Thailand topics.

It's not quite done, and needs you to refine and maintain it.

The Transhumanist 23:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

List of basic Thailand topics needs maps and pictures
This list has just been moved to article space from the basic topics lists WikiProject. It's useful enough to be in article space, but it still has some redlinks and missing topics, and it desperately needs maps and pictures.

It needs dedicated editors to look after it.

The Transhumanist 23:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

P.S.: please place it on your watchlist!

Need Thai
Need Thai at Lao Lom. Badagnani (talk) 16:31, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * If I am not totally wrong, Lao Lom are ลาวหล่ม, and the Lao Loum (Lao Lum) are ลาวลุ่ม. andy (talk) 11:01, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

People's Alliance for Democracy
People's Alliance for Democracy is going through an edit war. Heavens child, BasicallySo, and GoodHands, all users created at approximately the same time, have repeatedly reverted several edits and have refused to discuss the disagreements in the Talk page. Please have a look and see if you can make some 3rd party suggestions. Patiwat (talk) 06:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You may want to take a look at WP:SOCK and follow the guidelines there if you suspect multiple accounts by the same user are being used to influence the article. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Thailand
Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Hinduism in Thailand
Does anyone want to expand it to make it its own article? Right now it is only a small section in Hinduism_in_Southeast_Asia. Its surely deserves to be longer.--D-Boy (talk) 03:42, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

2008 Thai political crisis
that article is sorely in need of an update to the recent events. Wondering if someone can help in that regard? Lihaas (talk) 22:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Problem Pattern of Behavior
Just a heads up regarding a pattern of behavior that I saw with an anonymous IP user tonight- User:125.238.152.234 ran through a large number of Thai-related pages, particularly regarding mixed-ethnicity Thai celebrities and Thai people of Mon or Laotian heritage removing or blunting references to their non-Thai ethnic heritage. People from Category:Thai people of Mon descent and Category:Thai people of Mon descent along with various luk kreung celebrities seemed to be the main targets. --Clay Collier (talk) 07:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

FAR on Isan
nominated Isan for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Colchicum (talk) 22:52, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

FYI: New articles
A bot has been set up, which looks through the new Wikipedia articles and picks up those that are likely related to Thailand. The search results are available at User:AlexNewArtBot/ThailandSearchResult and are normally updated on a daily basis. Colchicum (talk) 01:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Province navboxes
I'm interested in creating navboxes for all of the provinces to make it easier to find relevant articles. I've made the first one, Template:Lopburi (see below). I hope to get some feedback/discussion to help develop a uniform style and layout, in order to minimize editing later on. Thanks.

--rikker (talk) 08:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A few more thoughts: this would supersede the "Amphoe of X" navbox currently in use only on Amphoe pages, and could be placed on all articles related to a given province. Right now I've kept it simple, but we might add separate sections in the navbox for temples, tourist sites, and so forth if there are enough articles, and especially as more are written. --rikker (talk) 09:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I like it. We have to discuss though which sections to add, because more than six or seven makes it a bit confusing? The first three are ok as well as the last two ones. I would replace "Royalty" with something else. I would not add "Sights", as we have a paragraph with "sights" in each article about province/amphoe..., where we can go into details. --hdamm (talk) 16:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it might be difficult to define a scope of inclusion for such navboxes. The districts and cities are directly related to the provinces, so no problem there, but other related topics might not be directly linked to a specific province. For example, Khao Yai National Park covers the area of four provinces, so for consistency we would need to include it in either all or none of the provinces' boxes, which would be problematic both ways. Selecting topics notably relevant to a province would also be very subjective, since a notable topic might be related to a province, yet the relationship may not be well-established in the minds of most. Somchai Wongsawat is not so much linked to Nakhon Si Thammarat as Thaksin Shinawatra is to Chiang Mai, which is still less than the link Banharn Silpa-archa has to Suphanburi, so drawing the line would be pretty difficult. --Paul_012 (talk) 13:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Sure, it's not going to be 100% tidy, but I don't think that requires scrapping the idea. Maybe a category for people, another for places, another for other. I don't think it has to be very clear cut, because for most provinces there's hardly a surplus of articles. Bangkok should be excluded from this anyhow, and then the more important provinces like Chiang Mai will need a little more attention. I'm more worried about coming up creating more articles than drawing the line about what to include in the navbox, personally. I think this would be a great tool, even if we err on the side of fewer links than creating a over-crowded navbox. --rikker (talk) 13:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Of course, it's a great idea and a potentially very useful navbox. Some further comments, though:
 * Why the green background for the title bar? (I think the default navbox colours should be fine)
 * Perhaps link the province article in the title bar, and free up the "Main article" line? But if we want to be rather generic in our reference to the name, maybe just change "Main article" to "Province". Inclusion of the provincial seals pretty much puts emphasis on the province, though.
 * I think "capital" could be changed to accommodate other cities, towns and perhaps large settlements.
 * I agree that "royalty" could be changed. It is hard to imagine a royal for every single province.
 * I'm not sure I find the neighbouring provinces group very useful, especially without a map. I would prefer a link to the province's geographical region, but those articles (apart from Isan are severely underdeveloped anyway.
 * --Paul_012 (talk) 14:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Politics of Thailand
Hey I've read the article and the section Thailand and Democracy after 1932 really needs some work. I know nothing about Thailand but I thought this would be a good place to request help. Thanks.Ltwin (talk) 21:06, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Open discussions
Please see discussions on the renaming of the articles History of Thailand (1768–1932), Thailand National Artist‎ and Thetsagan Sart. There is also discussion on the naming of Thai districts (amphoe) at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Thai districts‎. --Paul_012 (talk) 07:57, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Royal family virtually on the move
Hundreds of articles on Thai royals have been given funky new titles in the last couple of days by User:Monarchians. Check out the discussion here. Kauffner (talk) 14:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am outraged by the new titles too. The titles of articles are now too long and they do not help recognisability. If the names of Thai royalty are unambiguous, why don't we use only their names (not titles at all)? Surtsicna (talk) 19:57, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Updating the Manual of Style
Since the previous (dated) discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Thailand-related articles) had not achieved clear consensus even back then, and a few years have already passed (and presumably so have the circumstances changed), I would like to ask the parties involved to take a fresh look at this and re-state their opinions and reasons, citing the relevant Wikipedia guidelines where appropriate. Some may feel we are going through this again, but hopefully by starting anew we should be able to reach a consensus. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Since the Manual of Style concerns more than the naming of royalty articles, I'm taking the liberty to split the discussion. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Naming conventions for royalty and nobility
The current style is apparently designed to make articles names as short as possible, presumably to avoid bumping into technical barriers that no longer exist. Putting the given name first is a convention designed to make alphabetizing easier, another barrier technology has overcome. For the popes, the title comes first now, as in Pope Pius X. In other words, the trend is to follow usage in straight text as opposed to the style used in dead tree encyclopedia headings. So its high time to update the style here. For living royals, I suggest following the style used by the Thai English-language press. This would give us "Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn", "Princess Srirasmi", "Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn," and so forth. (The Thai press puts "His Royal Highness" or "HRH" before the title, but this is banned by Naming conventions (names and titles)). For historical figures, I propose following the style used by historians: "King Chulalongkorn," "Crown Prince Vajirunhis", etc. Kauffner (talk) 17:37, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think we should first and foremost keep in mind Use common names of persons and things. Although Naming conventions (common names) does state that names and titles are a main exception, the details listed on that page are only "intended for medieval and modern European and Muslim rulers and nobility", and we should avoid drawing unnecessary examples or references.


 * Personally I would prefer our usage to reflect that of contemporary scholarly works dealing with the subject, though I'm not sure how that can be established. Regarding the reasons for the difference in opinions regarding the matter, I feel that the highly-dividing "matter of respect" shouldn't be a big issue if we keep NPOV in mind. As for Kauffner's proposals, the main question should be whether or not including the titles is straying from common usage or being overly precise. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't know much about Thai nobility, but for the royals definetly add the titles to it, so it should be "Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn" for example, etc. and "Queen Sirikit of Thailand". Gryffindor  07:02, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

The Monarchians speak
Copied from User talk:Kauffner‎: Well first, I am sorry that I did anything you did not admire. Last night I and the office discussed about the name of the Thai Royalties until 11 pm. The objections we did were to complete the Thai Royal Family articles. We would like to complete all the member of the Siamese or Thai Royal Family, from the reign of Rama I to current Rama IX. I think I would like you to help us, too. At this moment we are editing the User page, so you will know who we are. And when I do anything wrong with the Thai Royal Article, you can tell me anytime you like. And I will discuss with you when I would like to edit or change anything about them. You can cooperate with us... The result of the meeting of changing the name of the Thai Royal Article in Wikipedia, the free evcyclopedia... We may cut the title Prince and Princess from the royalty who got the rank. Like Chitcharoen, Prince Narisara Nuvadtivongs, Kitiyakara Voraluksana, Prince of Chunthaburi, Bhanirangsi Savangvongse, Prince Bhanubandhu Vongsevoradej, etc. Because, they will be very long name in the article. And the name of the monarch of Thailand, I think we should write the name like the European monarch, like; Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, Margrethe II of Denmark, Maria I of Russia, Otto I of Austria, etc. So we can write like it in the Thai Monarchs, too. like; Bhumibol Adulyadej, Rama IX of Thailand, Chulalongkorn, Rama V of Siam, and still the name in it. How is your comment about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monarchians (talk • contribs) 08:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC) And the article name of the Crown Prince of Thailand. I think Maha Vajiralongkorn, Crown Prince of Thailand is the best name of the article, do you agree? And the name of the current members of the Thai Royal Family must have the title in the article. Like; Prince Dipangkorn Rasmijoti of Thailand, Princess Chulabhorn Walailuk of Thailand, etc. So it will be the same of the Royal Articles of the other Royal Family, like; Prince Christian of Denmark, Princess Isabella of Denmark, etc. Do you agree? And the royalty or nobility whose title Mom Chao, Mom Rajawongse, or Mom Luang. We should write the title in front of the name, too. e.g, Mom Chao Chatrichalerm Yukol, Mom Rajawongse Mannarumas Yukol, Mom Luang Sarali Kitiyakara... We would like to have your comment, too. Because this is the free encyclopedia, not the private... Hope to hear from you soon. Monarchians (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:41, 22 December 2008 (UTC).


 * The basic logic behind article naming on Wiki is that the names should reflect common English-language usage. For technical reasons, it is necessary for each name to be unique. So when the person has a very common name like "Otto" or "Elizabeth" some additional words are added to make the article name unique. This is why European royals get odd-looking article names with endings like "of Austria" and "of the United Kingdom". But there are no notable non-Thais with names like Bhumibol or Dipangkorn. "Of Thailand" is not part of their official titles, so I don't see any reason to put it in. For the crown prince, the Bangkok Post consistently refers to him as "Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn" and that is the style I'd like to follow. In any case, just "Vajiralongkorn" is the current style under Manual of Style (Thailand-related articles). This document needs to be revised before the article titles for individual royals can be changed. Kauffner (talk) 10:35, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The wiki style guide Naming conventions (people) states that names: "do not have additional qualifiers (such as "King")". The intention is to have short article names that have only the name itself, without any embellishments. I think we should adhere to that style, which is employed in the non-Thai part of wikipedia. &minus;woodstone (talk) 11:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia style like other encyclopedia style does not include the full ceremonial titles for each reference to a royal. The only reason why the article Elizabeth II is set at "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" is simply because there may be other Elizabeth's. Note there is no "Queen", or "Queen of United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and all the other commonwealth" or whatever her full title might be. And for the "Mom Chao" and other titles should be treated same as the "Sir" in England, mention it in the article, but not making it part of the article title. Simply check out the article title on King Bhumipol Adulyadej in Brittanica and other encyclopedias. So why should we be more royalist and sycophantic than that well-established encyclopedia - using this style does not mean any disrespect. Besides, the Thai government chose to block that article already anyway as even the moderate criticism well within our NPOV policy is considered lese majeste there...
 * Additionally, the "King Rama IX of Thailand" is simply wrong, as you can read in the article Rama (King of Thailand), as only Vajiravudh (Rama VI) actually used that title officially. andy (talk) 12:08, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What about Pope John Paul II? For British royals, there is Prince William of Wales and Sarah, Duchess of York, both of which follow formal British newspaper usage. Britannica doesn't put titles in front of the names because everything has to be alphabetized in the paper version. Kauffner (talk) 13:00, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Ummm... See WP:NCNT if you want to understand the conventions for western Royalty and Popes on Wikipedia. As is clear from that policy, "King" and "Queen" are normally omitted in the article titles for ruling monarchs, but lesser royalty often should have a title of nobility included in the article title. As best I understand it, these rules derive from the intersection of: a) historical usage b) a desire for consistency within Wikipedia c) WP:NAME. How this "precedent" all plays out in the context of Thai royalty, both current and historical is open to interpretation. I suspect that the historical kings and queens, such as Mongkut, are correctly titled, using the most common name in reliable sources. If I were going to delve into this issue for current persons, I would look at the styling of the name in such leading media as the New York Times and BBC reportage. Good luck. Studerby (talk) 21:09, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Dear. Kauffner... You said the Bangkok Post write only Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn. I see iy. But it is because Bangkok Post is the local newspaper of the Kingdom of Thailand. The editor write Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn because the Thai people and the foreigner always know that he is the Crown Prince of Thailand, not the other's. So it may be right if we name the article as Maha Vajiralongkorn, Crown Prince of Thailand. Because the people around the world will know that he is the Crown Prince of Thailand. And besides the people around the world does not have the Bangkok Post to read...

For example, The Sun, the local newspaper in England, write the name of Prince Chalres only as Prince Charles. Not Charles, Prince of Wales. Because the people in England always know that he is the prince of the UK, and the heir apparent to the British Throne, too. But in the article in Wikipedia, they name as Charles, Prince of Wales. So they would like all the people in the world who enter Prince Charles' article will know that he is the prince of the UK...

And the title Mom Chao, Mom Rajawongse, and Mom Luang are the title which the royalties has got since they were born. And the title Sir, or Lady or Dame are the title which given to the people by the sovereign. The Thai Royal Family is different from the other Royal or Imperial Families.

Monarchians (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:01, 22 December 2008 (UTC).


 * I think Monarchians may be right, because the people in Wikipedia are not all thai. I, thai people, want the people around the world know deeply about Thai Royal Family, to know about the Thai Royal titles are so complicated. This Royal Family is very different from the others. Our projects has just start a few days ago. To create the articles of every members of the Thai Royal Family. So we hope you will help us complete our project, we hope we would get your comment and cooperation, too.


 * Nice to meet you all, K. LPSK (will create the user page soon)
 * Technology department, Secretary office, Bureau of the Royal Household, Kingdom of Thailand —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.174.98.234 (talk) 16:34, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That is all very well, and I believe contributions from the Bureau of the Royal Household would be greatly appreciated, provided that they adhere to Wikipedia's policies. The point of this discussion, however, is the proper naming of articles on Thai royals. What Andy said above is that the reason Prince Christian of Denmark is at that title is because there are eleven Prince Christians and many more Christians, so the Prince... of Denmark is necessary to avoid confusion with other princes and persons of the same name. There is only one person named Vajiralongkorn, however, so there is no similar need, and the same applies to most Thai royals. I think this means we should refer back to establishing the most common name in English, and settling whether a brief descriptive title is appropriate at all.


 * Loose translation of the above: ประเด็นที่คุณ Andy กล่าวถึงข้างต้นคือเหตุผลที่ต้องใช้ชื่อบทความ Prince Christian of Denmark เพราะมีเจ้าชายที่ชื่อคริสเตียนถึงสิบเอ็ดพระองค์ จึงจำเป็นต้องมีชื่อประเทศต่อท้ายเพื่อแก้ความกำกวม ไม่ให้ชื่อบทความซ้ำกัน แต่เหตุผลไม่ใช่เพื่อบอกพระนามเต็มไว้ในชื่อบทความแต่อย่างใด (สังเกตได้ว่าไม่มี "Count of Monpezat" อยู่ในชื่อบทความ) เพราะพระนามเต็มย่อมจะได้รับการกล่าวถึงในเนื้อความของบทความนั้น ๆ อยู่แล้ว ทั้งนี้ไม่มีราชนิกูลของประเทศอื่นใดที่จะมีพระนามวชิราลงกรณ์ เราจึงไม่ต้องกลัวว่าชื่อบทความจะซ้ำกัน และไม่มีเหตุผลที่จะต้องใช้ชื่อประเทศกำกับ ทั้งนี้นโยบายการตั้งชื่อบทความของวิกิพีเดียจะใช้ชื่อที่ถูกใช้งานมากที่สุดในภาษาอังกฤษ ที่จะทำให้เข้าใจตรงกันได้ ประเด็นที่ควรจะต้องพิจารณาในที่นี้คือ จะต้องระบุพระนามละเอียดเพียงใด จึงจะตรงกับชื่อที่สากลใช้กันทั่วไป --Paul_012 (talk) 19:28, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Whatever course we choose to follow, there will be some issues that need ironing out. The Prince Damrong Rajanubhab, for example, is mainly known by his bestowed title, rarely by his given name, while most others, including Princess Galyani Vadhana (who isn't as widely known as the Princess of Naradhiwas or the Princess Naradhiwas Rajanagarindra), are known by their royal given names. Common usage would demand that we make exceptions in such cases. More complicated would be nobility titles (which we haven't gone into yet), which commonly far outweigh a person's given and surname as common usage, but also often apply to many persons. There is also the issue of multiple names/titles during a person's lifetime, (I'm thinking about Queen Savang Vadhana, who is more commonly known in Thailand by her widow title Somdej Phra Sri Savarindira Boromma Raja Devi, among others,) and whether distinction between living and deceased article subjects is needed. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There's a relevant discussion of Prince Charles' article name here. The reason his article is entitled Charles, Prince of Wales is not to identify his country of origin, distinguish him from other people named "Charles", or to avoid putting a title in front of his name. None of those issues even came up in the discussion. His official title is "Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales." The editors involved thought it was awkward to have the word "prince" twice in the article name, so the first "prince" was taken out. There is no precedent here for not putting a title before a name (or for putting an extraneous "of country" afterwards.) Kauffner (talk) 01:54, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is that all media in Thailand are compromised by the country's excessive lese majeste laws and there is absolutely no need for Wikipedia to start aping their obsequious kowtowing. We should use the shortest forms of the common names, stripped of any titles unless absolutely needed for disambiguation: Bhumibol Adulyadej, Vajiralongkorn, Srirasmi, etc. This is already the de facto convention anyway.

In addition, we need to reiterate here that, as per WP guidelines, titles are not to be used in article content when referring to the person. Jpatokal (talk) 02:18, 23 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The AP and The New York Times refer to Thai royalty in the same style as the Thai press, except they leave off the "HRH." Kauffner (talk) 11:21, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

The conclusion is that the Thai Royal Articles will name as only the name, not the titles or ranks, e.g.
 * HRH Prince Chitcharoen, The Prince Narisara Nuvadtivongs will name as only Chitcharoen
 * HRH Prince Bhanirangsi Savangvongse, The Prince Bhanubandhu Vongsevoradej --->> Bhanurangsi Savangvongse
 * HRH Prince Disuankumarn, The Prince Damrong Rajanubhab --->> Disuankumarn
 * HRH Prince Rangsit Prayurasakdi, The Prince of Chainat --->> Rangsit Prayurasakdi
 * HRH Prince Saisavaliphirom, The Princess Suthasininard Piyamaharajpadivaradda --->> Saisavaliphirom
 * HRH Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn --->> Maha Vajiralongkorn
 * HM Queen Sri Patcharindra, The Queen Mother (Saovabha Bhongsri) --->> Sri Patcharindra*
 * HM Queen Sri Saovarindira, The Queen Grandmother (Savang Vadhana) --->> Sri Savarindira*

In case of these two gueens, we should use the posthumously name. As you can see that The Princess Mother Sangval is named in the article as Sri Nagarindra...

And in case of Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhorn, the word Maha Chakri is the part of her full name. Her formal name was Sirindhorn Theprattanasuda and then has changed into Maha Chakri Sirindhorn it is not the ranks or the title. Her title is only Princess of Thailand. Well, one of my team named the title as The Princess Royal. Well that title was just as the comparison about the rank in English. But the only title is just as Princess of Thailand

I hope to see your comments or agreements, if you would to... And we continued cooperating create the Royal Thai articles happily...Thank you

Mr. Chakri (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:10, 23 December 2008 (UTC). Technology department, Secretary office, Bureau of the Royal Household, Kingdom of Thailand

Transliteration/transcription
Generally the Royal Thai General System of Transcription is now used for general terms and names with no clearly established English spelling, although the specifics detailed on the MoS page are outdated and not really followed. Please note further concerns or suggestions regarding the transcription scheme here. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It is probably best to adhere strictly to RTGS, with the option of adding tone marks. Any deviation is bound to lead to discussions (but personally I prefer to use j for จ). Note however that names for which an abundant majority of sources has another spelling, we may use that in running text, adding the RTGS for pronunciation purposes only. A current example is "Abhisit Vejjajiva", which is . We should update Manual_of_Style_(Thailand-related_articles) accordingly. &minus;woodstone (talk) 14:03, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * For pronunciation purposes, I would prefer we provided them in IPA. For example, I quite like the way the article currently begins as "(อภิสิทธิ์ เวชชาชีวะ, ... )" except perhaps the fact that having the boldfaced article title as the audio link seems a bit confusing at first glance. That is, I don't think it's necessary to provide the RTGS Aphisit Wetchachiwa, as it isn't a recognisable spelling of the name in this case, and a poorer pronunciation guide than the IPA. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that pronunciation should be in IPA.  For article titles and in text, I favour the usual Wikipedia practice of using the most common form, rather than assuming that RTGS is best.   Where there's no one form which is clearly the most common, RTGS tends to be a poor choice because it doesn't generally help English speakers to approximate a correct pronunciation (which I'd argue is what the forms we use should try to do). HenryFlower 20:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree with the IPA for pronunciation. And only RTGS where the use is common in those area, such as administration division (province, amphoe, etc.), road names. --Lerdsuwa (talk) 02:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see Talk:Abhisit Vejjajiva re: Meaning of Abhisit, and also Family name. Pawyilee (talk) 15:01, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Other issues
The MoS is currently pretty limited in scope. Please suggest specific issues that would be beneficial to be included here. --Paul_012 (talk) 20:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Pictures!
If the Technology department, Secretary office, Bureau of the Royal Household, Kingdom of Thailand, really wants to help improve the articles, they should upload some images in the public domain that won't be promptly deleted for lack of a proper license! Getting suitable images for ALL articles on Thailand, not just on the Royal family, is a headache! Upload instructions at Thai Wikipedia tell how that's done, but English Wikipedia needs permission in both languages. Also, just who is going to initiate Technology department, Secretary office, Bureau of the Royal Household, Kingdom of Thailand? It would also be nice if they could stop Bhumibol Adulyadej from being redirected here. Pawyilee (talk) 15:18, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Opposite enforcement of Thailand's lèse majesté laws, ALL pictures of Thai Royalty should be banned from Wikipedia, as Wikipedia cannot prevent users from "misunderstanding" them, much less "misunderestimating" the extent of "Opposite's" draconian enforcement. Perhaps some editor can design a template to be used in lieu of a portrait to explain why. Pawyilee (talk) 08:18, 11 February 2009 (UTC)