Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Theatre/Archive 7

Listing "Creative team" in Theatre articles
Aptly named user has been adding "Creative team" to multiple plays. Could someone from WikiProject Theatre please advise if this is standard? Please see for example My Neighbour Totoro (play). Cielquiparle (talk) 08:56, 30 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Not a fan. Main info should be in info box. Mark E (talk) 15:06, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not either and have not been able to find any other example, except for articles edited by this user, whom I would guess works in the industry. (Fixing username spelling to ping.) Cielquiparle (talk) 16:18, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * This is not a standard part of articles about plays; it seems like an innovation of this particular editor. --RL0919 (talk) 18:10, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if what I have done has felt disruptive, but the creative team is an important element in any theatrical production. If you look at the play texts for a production the creative particularly the disciplines listed here are credited at the beginning. I created a table because as productions develop or are revived the creative team changes. I understand if you feel this is not to your taste, but never the less you should not simply delete as you have done, you should replace the table with the credits elsewhere in an article, as they are properly referenced and important to the information of the article. TheaterLove (talk) 08:00, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Generally we name the creative team for major productions in the production history section rather than a table; choosing to incorporate their work into the prose section. That information does not belong in the main info-box because creative teams change when plays get revived (just like we don't list casts in the main info box because they change too). I personally would prefer to see the information in the prose section rather than a table, but the table isn't hurting anything.4meter4 (talk) 11:15, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, the director, designers and any other notable (bluelinked) creatives should be listed in a narrative sentence in the Productions section, not in a table. Also, the Cast table should list only casts for long-running, major market productions that have been described (with reliable sources cited) in the Productions section. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand that Wikipedia has a commitment to maintaining consistency and accuracy across its pages, but I'd like to present a compelling argument for the addition of a creative team table to theatre articles.
 * Dynamic Information Representation: Theatre productions often experience revivals and changes to their creative teams. This fluid nature of productions means that the individuals involved may shift multiple times over a play's lifespan. A creative team table would provide a clear and concise way to document these changes, allowing readers to see the evolution of a production at a glance.
 * Relevance and Reference: Names of directors, designers, choreographers, and other creative team members are frequently cited in reviews, scholarly articles, and media. Including them in a table format will not only align with the way this information is often presented in industry-specific publications but also make it easier for readers to connect the information to external sources.
 * Consistency with Other Entertainment Pages: Wikipedia often includes tables and detailed information on cast and crew for film and television pages. Implementing a similar structure for theatre would create a more uniform approach across different forms of entertainment.
 * Adherence to Guidelines: I have thoroughly reviewed the Wikipedia guidelines and have not found a specific rule that prohibits the inclusion of this type of information. I believe this proposal is in alignment with Wikipedia's broader goals of providing comprehensive and easily accessible information.
 * Cooperative Development: I value the community-driven nature of Wikipedia and do not wish to make these changes unilaterally. Instead, I propose that we work together to find the best way to integrate this information, respecting the collaborative spirit that Wikipedia encourages.
 * To initiate this process, I would like to ask for guidance on how to formally submit this suggestion. Is there a specific forum or discussion page where I can present this proposal to a wider community of contributors? Your assistance in guiding me through this process would be greatly appreciated.
 * Thank you for considering this addition to theatre Wikipedia pages, and I look forward to collaborating on a solution that serves the interests of both the Wikipedia community and its readers. TheaterLove (talk) 07:20, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@ In response to your query on forums and outside input, you are already in the correct forum for discussing theatre related articles. This is the page for bringing any issues that are specific to theatre content as the project members here are the ones that are the most active in creating theatre related content, and doing the editorial maintenance of theatre articles. We also have sister projects like WP:WikiProject Musical Theatre and WP:WikiProject Opera, etc. There are formal processes for seeking wider input, and I can go over those with you, but I question the wisdom of engaging with those processes at this juncture for a few reasons. One, this conversation has just started and you haven't given enough time for the editors here to comment. Two, this is the group of editors who spend their time writing articles on plays, performance venues, stage actors, etc. Is it really right to go around your content-area colleagues, and pursue opinions from outside to try to force changes that the editors in a particular content area are not supportive of? That doesn't seem to be respectful to your theatre editor colleagues who have the most vested interest in this body of articles in terms of content creation, article maintenance, and number of volunteer hours dedicated to theatre-related content. If you are planning on dedicating yourself to creating articles on plays, you should really try and build positive relationships with the editors here and work towards achieving a meeting of the minds through the normal process of building consensus through discussion. 4meter4 (talk) 12:37, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments on creative team table rationale.


 * @ Thank you for putting together a thoughtful and well reasoned argument for why you believe creative team tables should be implemented. I agree that in cases where there have been multiple notable productions of a stage work, a table could be a beneficial way of documenting this information. I also agree that the information is relevant (within reason; not all personnel should necessarily be listed; we don't list every person in a film's credits on film pages and it should be the same for theatre; for example no film articles name "casting directors"; stage work articles shouldn't either). I agree that this kind of table reflects published source materials in the content area, and that there is nothing in policy guidelines prohibiting the use of such a table.
 * However, I disagree that similar tables currently exist in entertainment pages, and that the proposed table is simply an attempt at implementing a practice already widely in use elsewhere. No articles, including Featured articles, on works that are performed live (ballets, operas, plays, musicals, etc.) include this sort of content routinely in tables, and these are the only transferable types of entertainment articles as they involve live performance and works that are routinely revived on stage by different artists and organizations. Further, even within recorded works like films, tables of this kind are not in wide use. Typically, in films info-boxes contain a limited number of creative personell (ie directors, producers, cinematographers, screenwriters, etc.) which is appropriate for a static work that doesn't change, but they do not have tables outside the info-box. TV series, provide even less content on creative personnel, because they are episode dependent. Generally only writers and directors for individual episodes are listed in a page like this one (List of 24 episodes). In short, rather than arguing for something accepted elsewhere, you have innovated something that is entirely new.
 * In terms of cooperative development, the whole point of this talk page is to help editors working within theatre articles to communicate and collaborate. We are discussing what to do here. At present it looks like consensus is in favor of not adopting these tables across the encyclopedia, and I would request,, that you respect and accept whatever consensus is reached here. I think it would be good to hear editors explain respectfully why they feel the way they do.
 * Additionally, "consistency" is not a universal virtue. Beyond the Manual of Style, we aren't beholden to consistency. One of the strong benefits of wikipedia is the ability to be flexible in article design. Some articles benefit from an info-box, others don't need one. Some articles benefit from a table, others don't need one. The content should drive the article construction and design; not some arbitrary pre-determined article format. Its my opinion that we shouldn't ban the creative team table. I think it could be useful in certain articles, particularly ones that have had multiple notable revivals. I could see it being useful and appropriate in those situations. However, I don't think it is appropriate in an article like My Neighbour Totoro (play) where there has only been one production.
 * Lastly, I am not one for imposing my ideas of article construction onto others. The table isn't hurting anything, and I for one say just leave it on articles that TheaterLove creates. Where problems may come up, is any attempt to add the table to pre-existing articles. While nobody WP:OWNs articles, I find the table at My Neighbour Totoro (play) to be unattractive, and visually disruptive to the article's prose section in a way that detracts from the flow of the article. It is distracting from the core prose (ie, "the meat") of the article, and I would not like to see it used in this way within articles that I am invested in as a contributing writer. Best.4meter4 (talk) 13:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

IMO the tables are not encyclopedic. A much better format is the concise narrative format of the Productions section. Wikipedia is WP:NOT a theatre specialty reference work. Those exist elsewhere. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:27, 11 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I have to say I don’t appreciate the axiomatic nature of you’re comments throughout to me elsewhere on here @Ssilvers Wikipedia is a space to grow and improve information and most of all a place of collaboration. I’m just suggesting a new way of displaying information and have reversed any edits I have made. In regards to a specific production The Effect would you suggest putting the creative team of the two notable productions in the productions section? I feel a table would make this clearer. I agree with @4meter4 that the core creative team should be the only ones to appear, those that can be cross referenced and are published in the play text. TheaterLove (talk) 21:52, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @ I would suggest merging the revival section into the production section under the broader title "production history". That would enable you to include both productions within a single section and would make the table's inclusion appropriate. You could also have sub-headings for each production under that larger section if you prefer to keep the prose sections separated, but that isn't necessarily essential. If you do that, I would re-lable the first production "original production" or "premiere production" instead of just "production" which is not clear. I would suggest thinking out what is visually most pleasing to the eye as well as what makes the article easier to read. I would also examine how the article looks on a computer and in mobile. It's best to create structures that look good in both formats. I would strongly encourage you to write more prose to balance out the size of a large table. Big tables with tiny prose sections always look unattractive, and make the article look under-developed. Maybe add in some content on reviews of the productions to expand the prose in the production history section, such as comments on individual performances or set designs or costumes, etc.? I hope these comments were helpful. Best.4meter4 (talk) 22:14, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Typically, the level two heading would be "Productions" (the Plot or Synopsis section should go first), and the level 3 headings would be "Royal National Theatre (2012)" followed by "Boulevard Theatre (2020)". -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:31, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Comedietta?
Could someone turn the red link blue? See Talk:Comedy (drama). Pam D  12:10, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

LGBT theatre
I have just created a very inadequate stub article about LGBT theatre. Would people be interested in expanding it, and creating links to it from other relevant articles?

I've also created List of LGBT theatre companies, which is similarly impoverished, as it is limited entirely to Anglophone countries. Perhaps this should be updated to a more global perspective, together with the addition of the relevant articles? &mdash; The Anome (talk) 16:32, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Paddington: The Musical
I recently created a draft for the newly announced Paddington: The Musical. Thriley (talk) 06:26, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Articles Needing Creation
Two top suggestions if anyone is looking for some new articles to create. I may take these on myself if they remain unmade, but I have not seen them myself.
 * Misty (play) - Nominated for an Olivier Award for Best New Play.
 * The Height of the Storm - Played in the West End and transferring to Broadway in the fall.

Others: Jumpy (play), The Phlebotomist, Patsy Ferran, Keir Charles, Cecilia Noble — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark E (talk • contribs) 10:04, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

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Requested move at Talk:E.D. Berman
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:E.D. Berman that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:32, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Stage works of Paul Goodman
I have a peer review open for the Stage works of Paul Goodman, an interesting overview of his oeuvre. If you're curious, I'd welcome your feedback. czar 04:16, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Missing historic London theatre
This is a rather interesting history on the 19th century theatre The Philharmonic Hall, 40 Islington High Street, London. I notice that we lack an article on this theatre. Apparently there were multiple theaters rebuilt at this location after the various theaters were destroyed in separate fires. This would make a good article or perhaps articles (one for each theatre).4meter4 (talk) 16:56, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Third opinion needed
I would appreciate it if any one could respond to a dispute at Talk:Patriots (play) about which production poster should be used in the article. Thank you, Aspects (talk) 17:59, 29 February 2024 (UTC)


 * I oppose the idea that production posters cannot be updated. In the case of this production, I was just updating the poster to the upcoming Broadway poster for transfer of the play as the West End poster was out of date. An actor who is on the London poster, Tom Hollander, is not reprising his performance on Broadway. I have done similar edits to other pages such as Back to the Future and Days of Wine and Roses. I have not had an issue with this until now. Would appreciate if someone could provide input to settle this dispute. Smitty1999 (talk) 03:23, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Feel like discussing the WP:LEADIMAGE at William Shakespeare?
Your view is welcome at Talk:William_Shakespeare. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Talk:The_Merchant_of_Venice
Your view is welcome. WP:OR, WP:BLOGS, two plot sections, etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:54, 22 April 2024 (UTC)