Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Three Kingdoms/Archive 1

wikiproject under construction

 * User:Ling.Nut/WP3K

wikiproject plan
Here's a plan:
 * [Inital section copied from User talk:Gamer Junkie ]
 * 1) Read WikiProject Council/Guide
 * 2) Create a barebones project page, most likely copy/pasted/edited/modified  from something like WP:MILHIST. From the very beginning this page should make and stress the explicit goal of separating fact from fiction and installing a standardized procedure for page sections ... we should probably make it in someone's user space, then move into WP space if enough people wanna help.
 * 3) Put up a proposal at WikiProject Council/Proposals.
 * 4) Spam the talk pages of folks you think might be interested.
 * 5) Wait. If you build it, they will come. or so we hope.  :-)
 * Ling.Nut 23:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, although I'll need to increase my Wiki knowledge, I think. I'm not up on all of that yet. Gamer Junkie 23:27, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * here you go. We can start editing User:Ling.Nut/WP3K. Tell all your friends... :-) Ling.Nut 23:37, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Holy shit, that's long. So basically we rephrase this thing, stating our intentions to clearly define fact from fiction in articles related to Chinese historical figures, right? Gamer Junkie 23:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

(undent) It'll almost certainly be much shorter when we're done. We'll take out anything we don't need. And yes, that's the idea... I'm gonna copy this entire conversation to the talk page of that one.... Ling.Nut 23:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a WikiProject Chinese history, so there might be a big overlap between this project and that one. (But still, I think it's better if we have our own venue for discussion regarding Three Kingdoms.) _dk 00:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If all we're gonna do is discuss, then should we have a noticeboard instead of a Project? Ling.Nut 00:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So the question is, which do we need:
 * WikiProject Three Kingdoms
 * Task force within WikiProject Chinese history
 * Noticeboard only.
 * Ling.Nut 01:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Either 1 or 2: The two options only differ in name. _dk 05:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I suspect that a distinct WikiProject would be better able to attract contributors, esp. if it had cool awards etc. Just a thought. Ling.Nut 12:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Basically I prefer that this project list down all officers in the battle in a wikitable so that it will be easier for reference, but of course we have to differentiate between fact and fiction for this project.As this project is difficult in the sense that it has been very long ever since the publish date of San Guo Zhi and the novel. Mastertkw 2:08pm, 17 june 2007

Battle of Red Cliffs
Got the ball rolling on a GA nom for Battle of Red Cliffs. It will probably take more than a little time for a reviewer to get to it. Ling.Nut 12:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Is anyone a Google maps wiz? I clicked the coords for Red Cliffs (in the top right hand corner of the article), and the Google map showed it to be not too far from Fankou &mdash; really far northeast of where it should be! Is it near Wuhan? Or farther SW? Either way, the coords at the top of the page are very wrong. Ling.Nut 01:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * fixed it. Never mind. :-) Ling.Nut 03:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that the location of the battle is still under dispute (though most historians agree that it's near Wulin), so there's no telling that the coordinates are very wrong. _dk 10:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Categories and Infoboxes
Much of the MILHIST page that is the source for this project page is taken up with elucidation of various Categories and Infoboxes. There are many Three Kingdoms categories; we need to display a tree or trees for them. There are also infoboxes, and I believe we need a generic "Three Kingdoms Biography" infobox patterned after (and probably replacing) the Three Kingdoms emperor infobox, an example of which is at Sun Quan. -- Ling.Nut 12:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * A generic Three Kingdoms Biography infobox (like what appears on the Cao Cao) is what I was hoping to do, but I am hopeless with template coding, so.... :) _dk 18:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I can do it, probably Saturday or Sunday. We can make the fields that are specific to emperors optional. Can you give me a list of all fields that might potentially occur in such a template? Are the fields in the template on Cao Cao enough, or are there more that we will need? Ling.Nut 19:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * See Guan Yu for an extreme case. _dk 03:00, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Good. Let's plan on getting that done next week. Ling.Nut 03:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Assessment system?
This is for later, but.. do we want an assessment system for all Three Kingdoms articles? You know, where people rate the article Stub, Start, B, GA, A or FA? I've set up.. ummm.. I think three of those so far, for three different wikiprojects, so Can Do.. if everyone wants it... --Ling.Nut 04:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a good idea. By the way, there's no featured 3K article here, is there? I guess Cao Cao, Cao Pi, Cao Rui, Sun Ce, Sun Jian, Sun Quan, Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Dong Zhuo, Lü Bu, Yuan Shao might be the most likely candidates one day. Sarazyn &bull; 丁ALK &bull; DE 07:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Might be a good idea. Can't be taken seriously if we're not going to do everything properly. Gamer Junkie 08:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * A big majority of them is going to overlap with WP:MILHIST and WP:CHINA, and since the assessments are based on the same standards, I don't think it's useful. _dk 09:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * (undent)
 * Deadkid raises a valid and persuasive point. The assessments would be redundant...
 * If we don't have an assessment system, then we would have to take it upon ourselves to make sure that all 3K articles get assessed appropriately in the other wikiprojects...
 * I have two counter-arguments to deadkid's objection. Both of them are a little weak, but I present them for the sake of completeness:
 * 1) We're gonna hafta put wikiproject banners on every single talk page anyhow. We need members, and no one can join a project if they don't know it exists. Since we have that task ahead of us, if we ever think we'll want an assessment system in the future, it's better to kill two birds with one stone now and put them in from the beginning...
 * 2) Assessing articles might provide an easy point of entry for new project members. It's easy to do...
 * ... do either of those persuade you, dk? I'm actually not strongly in favor of having an assessment system, since I see the point you made. But I think everything should be talked out &amp; agreed on. Ling.Nut 12:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I just don't see the need, sorry. _dk 20:41, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The minimum, we should add WP3K on all the talk pages related to the project regardless of assessment scales. I have some concerns over other projects' assessments. Three Kingdoms is assessed as Start class but I think the topic covered the majority aspects already. Another enquiry would be Battle of Red Cliffs, WPChina assessed it as GA, while MilitaryWP assessed it as A. So which one does it belong? Even though majority of the articles fall within the 2 projects mentioned above, we should have assessments as well because it's much more specific (WPChina covers everything in China, may not be focused enough on ancient military history. MilitaryWP covers military around the world, may not know a lot of ancient oriental military.)  OhanaUnited    Talk page   08:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If you don't agree with other WikiProjects' assessments, change them. Battle of Red Cliffs is at its present stage because WP:MILHIST doesn't have a GA class while most other WPs don't have the A class. (Techinically, A-class should be higher than a GA, but for some reason A-class articles aren't shown as prominently) _dk 10:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I've done it. Now we must complete the class and importance parameters in the project tag. Armando.O talk • Ev 03:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration, GA/FA drives?
I think Sarazyn is right &mdash; I haven't seen any 3K FA's. I have my hopes pinned on Battle of Red Cliffs as our inaugural FA. : -) ... Do we wanna collaborate, have FA/GA drives, etc.? If so, which articles?
 * Battle of Changban as a sister-article to Red Cliffs?
 * Zhuge Liang, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and Liu Bei (roughly in that order?) as the most popular characters in ROTK?
 * Three Kingdoms and ROTK as the twin roots of the 3K hierarchy?
 * Ling.Nut 12:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe comparison with de: is going to help you, where four of my 3K translations were granted GA status: Cao Cao (now FA candidate), Cao Pi, Liu Shan, Jiang Wei. I also plan to expand Sun Quan using Crespigny's works to catapult it to FA status. Sarazyn &bull; 丁ALK &bull; DE 14:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The character articles above (by Ling.Nut) will be very difficult, they're jumbled up and all over the place and won't be so easy to work with. Perhaps we should start with a more minor individual; somebody who's article is small and can be built upon and controlled more easily, just as a test. If we were going to choose from the group above, Zhang Fei's article would probably be the easiest to start with (less traffic, less subsections). As far as Changban goes, maybe we should concentrate on Red Cliffs before jumping the gun.  We should also be making comparisons between our articles and military articles that are already FA'd.  I'd say with fair certainty that the Battle of Normandy would probably be one, and maybe Operation Market Garden.  Let's compare our goals with what's already been accomplished by the MILHIST people, and maybe get some input from some big shot who's helped MILHIST get their FA's. Gamer Junkie 14:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The peer review of Red Cliffs at MILHIST didn't attract any attention. However, if/when it makes GA, I'm immediately gonna close that peer review and open another one at MILHIST for "A" rating. Those reviews do seem to attract attention.... Ling.Nut 14:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * If we can't get their attention the old fashioned way, we should try contacting somebody from the MILHIST WikiProject directly, they can't really ignore or miss that. Gamer Junkie 14:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

(undent)
 * Sarazyn: Congrats on the multiple GAs on the German Wikipedia!
 * Gamer Junkie: well, my exp. is that people won't offer more than two or three sentences' worth of help ''unless' they know you well. That's not specific to MILHIST, that's just about anyone ;-)
 * All: I guess we'll most likely have a straw poll to choose an article to improve.. later... Ling.Nut 03:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Page move. Shortcut. Sidebar. Project banner. AWB, anyone?

 * OK, I moved this page into WP space (duh), and created the sidebar you see at right (duh). I made WP3K as a project banner. New shortcuts: WP:3K &amp; WT:3K. Still many things to do. I'm working on an infobox &amp; will have questions to ask about that soon. Does anyone have/use WP:AWB? Ling.Nut 19:37, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Included in WikiProject directory
I've added this WikiProject to the WikiProject directory. And just a note - I don't know if anybody here has any experience with growing a WikiProject, but I think your first task here should be to tag as many relevant articles as possible with the WikiProject tag. This will help you recruit members. But even when people start putting their names down as members, they may not actively participate. It would be helpful to make comments here at the Talk page often, even if you are the only one or two people doing it. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 05:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments requested: Three Kingdoms
_dk has raised a number of objections to the layout etc. of Three Kingdoms. We've made a few changes as per his suggestions, but further comments from other WP:3K members are encouraged. See Template talk:Three Kingdoms. Thanks! Ling.Nut 12:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Five Tiger Generals and Five Wei Generals up for deletion
Please come and discuss the issue here Articles for deletion/Five Wei Generals. _dk 21:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

categories
hey, if we wanna put the cats on the wikiproject page (I'm neutral on the issue) here they are: User:Ling.Nut/3kcats. This listing actually omits some redundant branches of the tree without missing any individual cats.. or so I hope.. Ling.Nut 12:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Userbox
I think we need to create a userbox to attract more members once the portal announcement is pulled off after it pasts the pulldate. Anyone would like to take on this task? OhanaUnited   Talk page   05:12, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, a suitable image would be nice, what would be a catchy image that would immediately identify itself as "Three Kingdoms"? _dk 05:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Not Image:Changban2.png. That one looks too crowded. Maybe an image showing the 3 chinese word of 魏,蜀,吳  OhanaUnited    Talk page   05:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that the above picture is far too detailed for a userbox image. Perhaps we should simply put two Chinese characters which mean "Three Kingdoms" instead? Gamer Junkie 07:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Using an image that says 三國 sounds like a good idea. Maybe we can find a stylised calligraphy of the characters for it.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 07:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

What about this :


 * Ling.Nut 22:53, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know...I like my userboxes with a standard size. (Historical nitpick: That's not what they use back in the days! =D) _dk 02:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Ooh, maybe a picture of Guan Yu would be nice, too. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:07, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I tried to download some free calligraphy-looking Chinese fonts from here - - to type out "三國" in a more artistic font, but for some reason the character 國 never renders with the new fonts. It always renders with one of the default fonts that comes with Windows. Maybe someone else will have better luck. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 03:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have a pretty nice–looking calligraphy–brush–style version of the the three Chinese characters.. they're large... wouldn't adding them make it look too cluttered?? Ling.Nut 04:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the two characters would be the only things we would have in the userbox. Similar to a standard userbox setup with the image (Three Kingdoms characters) to the left side and the descriptive info to the right like this:


 * Gosh, I've grown attached to the guan dao.. :-) OK wait a minute I'll make one to look at... Ling.Nut 04:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I know I might not be in a position to say this since I haven't committed myself as a full member of this WikiProject - but please no images from the Koei games! I love those games and they definitely have some nice graphics but it would be better if the images this WikiProject use were more "proper". Just my 2 cents. I already prefer it if we keep info about the games to a minimal on the related articles for the Three Kingdoms Period. No offense to anybody here, but WP is too full of anime and video game cruft as it is. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 05:07, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't apologize &mdash; you're a full memeber in my eyes! :-) Anyhow, try this:


 * Ling.Nut 05:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Haha. Hong, I know that was probably directed at me, but not to worry;  The primary reason I decided to lend my part in this project is to ensure that Dynasty Warriors/pop culture comments and additions remain in complete check.  I assure you that, although I absolutely love the DW games, I won't see them destroying something as historically and culturally significant as the Three Kingdoms period of China and the Romance of the Three Kingdoms works.  I'm also quite certain that Ling and Deadkid feel very much the same way. This was also one of the first things I made clear on the 3K project page: Game stuff goes in the relevant subsections and in minute amounts. Ling, that rocks.  Way better, in my opinion.  Gamer Junkie 05:19, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh no, that was not directed at anybody. I've felt this way for a good long time now but, having other editing interests as well, have not taken the time to making sure articles are not inundated with information about the Koei games.  Like I said, I love the games, too.  But sometimes the anime and video game cruft just get out of control, especially with anonymous editors adding lists of complete trivia about some random anime or video game character doing this and that.
 * Ok, getting back to the userbox. Ling - great job.  But you may want to shrink it down to the standard size for a userbox somehow.  It might be good to only have "三國" as the image, because I don't know if you can make everything fit in there.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 05:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

...errr... now? 
 * Ling.Nut 05:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * try left-justified...


 * Ling.Nut 05:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks great! Just looking at it, it seems like it's standard userbox size.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 05:52, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's how it's done. Bottom one's even better.  I still think the colour should be something more traditionally Chinese, though, and not so fluro because it's seriously contrasting with the dark blue link.  Maybe gold, red, green, etc. Gamer Junkie 05:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

(undent) try gold (puts on sunglasses)


 * Sunglasses not necessary. That looks really good.  Better than the bright blue. Gamer Junkie 06:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * A lil lighter might be better. _dk 07:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

(undent) two-tone?


 * Ling.Nut 13:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sweet. I'll go with that.  good job. Gamer Junkie 13:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I like the last userbox's colour. However, I have some comments regarding the words. The word "三" is too calligraphic. It actually took me almost half a minute before realizing what that means, and that means a non-project member would take more time, if not the same, to realize what that means. Is it possible to make it less thick?   OhanaUnited    Talk page   17:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Looks good! I like the last one the most. How about a line seperating the image and the text? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:04, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Had to do a "text-align: center" for the left table cell because aligning left was messing it up in IE. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the improvements! I'll change the align-center in the actual template.. but do most templates have a line separating the two sections? The FA template doesn't. I don't think the WP Biography one does... I dunno... Ling.Nut 18:46, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, that align-center attribute wasn't the problem. The problem was that the image is 69 pixels wide, and the table cell it was in was only specified 60 pixels wide. Take a look at the version I have here below. The left cell is specified to be 75 pixels wide, and I also took out some font specifications that's unnecessary in the left cell. Anyway, the problem wasn't happening all the time. Sometimes it rendered fine, and sometimes it didn't. I think it's just IE being stupid as usual. I took a screenshot of what I was seeing - Image:3KPTalk.jpg. As for the line between the two table cells. It's certainly not necessary. I was just wondering if it makes the userbox look better. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Three Kingdoms discussion from WikiProject Council/Proposals

 * Statement
 * Most articles related to the Three Kingdoms period in Chinese history and its popularity in novels, games, television series, movies etc. are currently in disarray. The new project (project page under construction) aims to bring order to the chaos.


 * Goals
 * To provide guidelines and recommendations for articles that describe all aspects of the Three Kingdoms period.
 * To improve Wikipedia's coverage of the Three Kingdoms period by creating, expanding, and maintaining such articles.
 * To serve as the central point of discussion for issues related to the Three Kingdoms period in Wikipedia.
 * To ensure clear definition between factual and fictional information regarding people of the Three Kingdoms period.


 * Scope
 * The project generally considers any article related to historical or fictionalized characters and events related to the Three Kingdoms period of Chinese history within its scope.


 * Interested Wikipedians (please add your name)
 * Ling.Nut 19:15, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * _dk 20:40, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Gamer Junkie
 * Plastictv 17:48, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sarazyn &bull; 丁ALK &bull; DE 22:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments:
 * This could also be a task force of the WikiProject Chinese history. Chris 01:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Six of one; half dozen of another. There are a few advantages to having a separate WikiProject, though. Ling.Nut 02:34, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Image hunting and image use
I'm posting this here for those people who don't frequent the WikiProject China talk page...

The Battle of Red Cliffs article has too few images, too few for even a jab at the WP:FAC process. For something as famous/influential as this battle (like THE most famous Chinese battle in history, really), I'm shocked that I cannot find any free use images depicting the battle on the internet. So here is my request: Are there any free use image of the battle (ie. Did any ancient artist try to draw it?) that can be used on the article?

Thank you. _dk 09:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

does anyone have this book?

 * Ling.Nut 02:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Being from Melbourne, I should, but no, I don't. :) Gamer Junkie 02:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Being from Melbourne, I should, but no, I don't. :) Gamer Junkie 02:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Historical Location of Red Cliffs

 * Working on a section about the Historical Location of Red Cliffs in my userspace, here. This should be verifiable historical info (scholarly articles etc.) only.. no game-related info... Ling.Nut 21:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Modern References
I'm not a part of this project, but browsing through the various character pages, I find the Modern References sections stand out like sore digits. They read less like examples from popular culture and more like a summarised guide to playing them in Dynasty Warriors. Would anyone object if I a) edited them down to the basics and b) added stuff that isn't just Dynasty Warriors? --77.99.30.226 16:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I've edited Zhang Fei's relevant section as an example. --77.99.30.226 17:00, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I would be thrilled if you would join the project. :-)
 * Moreover, working on the Modern References would also be very welcome. Bear in mind that the gaming stuff is very important to many folks, and is certainly notable, so it can't be removed.. BUT.. it can be summarized... for example, there are some articles which include extraneous info like "press the left button three times for a signature move".... you can work together with our trusted resident gaming guru Gamer Junkie on this aspect. Thanks!!! Ling.Nut 17:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I would object to such edits, anonymous user, as we have repeatedly seen that the information is returned constantly and even more so upon new releases in the series. As I've already explained on the Cao Cao discussion page, the information is relevant and significant in today's popular culture.  The information on each page, which I monitor constantly, is kept to a minimum without providing editors further opportunity to add masses of game guide material.  This involves saying as much about each character as possible in as little space as possible so as not to give editors an opportunity to add something else to fill in the blanks. I assure you, this is necessary, as your one sentence trivia points will otherwise become half a page of poorly spelled, badly linked, game guide strategy material within the week. There are formerly dedicated editors who no longer participate at length due to attempting what you wish to do and simply being swamped with article upon article of new DW info at frequent intervals and not coping with it.  What we have now is the best way to limit further additions, monitor what we have and ensure that it's written well and kept short and at the bottom of the article, away from the important information.


 * But in regards to adding other stuff, please, go right ahead. Gamer Junkie 13:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

GA5 Campaign

 * For a number of reasons, I think it's better for the health of the WP:3K as a whole to mount a campaign to achieve a string of GAs in a row, rather than focusing on a single FA. We'd be working on each article on a list of potential GAs one at a time until GA is achieved, then moving on to the next... so we need to agree on a list of (say) five or more potential GA candidates to work on one by one... there was some discussion about possible articles above...
 * One day soonish when I get time I'll make a WP:3K campaign ribbon (template) with the ability to put a variable number of "battle stars" on it for GAs or FAs. Each person who participates can have a ribbon; the number of stars depends of the level of service, of course.
 * I think one person should be made Campaign Leader; that person should award stars, do whatever else needs doing, etc. I nominate _dk.
 * Ling.Nut 14:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice idea, but I think it is more urgent for us to expand the hundreds of sub-stubs under our project and eliminate the fictitious material from them. And there are also some articles we're missing...I should compile a "Requested Articles" section soon. _dk 00:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Uhhh, I guess that means you don't wanna be its leader. ;-)
 * I think expanding sub-stubs to stubs is all fine too, but for one thing, there's usually a reason why stubs are stubs... 'cause the topics aren't high importance, usually... Ling.Nut 00:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, how about we just nominate five (sufficiently important) articles to cleanup? For example, Zhang Fei lacks a historical section. About the leader thing...I'll see about it, but I think anyone can award stars to each other so I don't think I should have control over that. _dk 02:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Oh the stars bit was the least important bit. Other things more important... and taking articles to GA is a visible marker/signpost of progress... five (sufficiently important) articles sounds good... Ling.Nut 03:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, three of our top importance articles, the Three Kingdoms Cao Wei, Shu Han, and Eastern Wu have nothing more than a brief history and a questionable list of "important" personnel....I'll be happy even if they can be upgraded into "B" class articles. _dk 08:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

"Modern References" section for Battle of Red Cliffs under construction
There's a page in my user space... here that is earmarked for work on a "Modern References" section for Battle of Red Cliffs... when it's done we'll move it into the article...

There are already three newspaper articles there that could be sources for a little info.. plus there's a PC strategy game called "Dragon Throne: Battle of Red Cliffs"... and I dunno if the section should only be modern; there are several famous poems by Su Shi etc.... anyone who wants to contribute to the workpage is W-E-L-C-O-M-E to do so... I dunno if I'll be a lot of help for the next three or 4 weeks... Ling.Nut 00:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Cultural and modern references" perhaps? I'd like to ensure we leave as much DW stuff out of articles that aren't constantly bombarded with DW additions and the battle pages seem to be left fairly much alone. We should keep it down to movies, games unique to the battle, etc.  But you already appear to be on the same level with that, Ling. Anyway, I'll be sure to do that.  If not now, in the next couple of days. Gamer Junkie 01:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I strongly believe that gaming stuff is notable. I'm just not sure that I know where to draw the line on the details.. the devil is always in the details.. thanks!! Ling.Nut 01:13, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll just list down the things we can mention (not in this order):
 * Sangokushi Eiketsuden, Sangokushi Koumeiden, Sangokushi Sousouden - tactical RPGs. (Very notable in East Asia, mind you)
 * Warriors of Fate - traditional beat'em up, centered around the Battle of Red Cliffs campaign.
 * Dynasty Warriors - duh. Maybe Warriors Orochi, but this can be (and should be) left out. Keep this brief please.
 * The movie Red Cliffs, of course. Its English title is confirmed to be "Red Cliff", as seen in one of the movie's press conferences.
 * Su Shi's poem. Provide the full text of the poem with a translation, and note that Su Shi's Chibi is not the Chibi that the battle happened in.
 * As an introduction, we should mention that Cao Cao didn't expect the battle to be such an enterprise, but as the years went on the significance of the battle became apparent, and thus did the fiction stuff appear. (This can be sourced from de Crespigny's book "Generals of the South")
 * Puqi's renaming to Chibi, and how the city made itself into a tourist attraction. (Mention theme parks, museums, etc)
 * The heading, I think, should be "Cultural legacy", and then include the "Fictionalized account" into this section.
 * Maybe, just maybe, mention some Chinese opera stuff (Beijing opera, Cantonese opera, etc). Some of RoTK's stories about Chibi are drawn from various sects of Chinese opera.
 * And other things I missed, like this Dragon Throne: Battle of Red Cliffs game that I know nothing about.

That was my plan to tackle the "Cultural legacy" section, but since you guys are interested in writing the section yourselves, I'll just show you what my plan would be and you guys can decide if this is the way you want to write the section. Of course, I'll pop in and help around from time to time. Gentlemen, I wish you good luck. _dk 02:46, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought we were just going with a point-by-point piece, but this sounds more like a few hundred/thousand words for an entire sub-section. This will need to be thoroughly planned and organised, so it definitely won't be done today. Gamer Junkie 02:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

OK, this is my response:
 * 1) Your plan greatly exceeds my own thoughts and expectations. Good on you!
 * 2) A few thousand words? We don't need no stinking few thousand words! Every point dk mentioned is three sentences tops, and sometimes fewer. But yeah, it'll take three weeks or a month or so to do, esp. since two crewmen are called away &mdash; both _dk and I seem to be sidelined (see below).
 * 3) Right now, at this point in my life, for at least the next few weeks, I'm not able to write the section myself. I am, however, interested in cajoling others to do it. :-) Seriously, we got another phone call about the job possibility just a few minutes ago, and the news wasn't all good (but not all bad, either). I need to do real-life shtuff. :-(
 * 4) There is no number 4. Later! Ling.Nut 03:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You can make that three members sidelined. I'm still going on the whole witness thing right now.  Plus I'm still fixing other articles for VG project, too. Trying to put the project's together, so my last massive overhauls were Nobunaga's Ambition and Destiny of an Emperor.  A good combination, yeah? Gamer Junkie 03:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Shall we reschedule this meeting for late August, or even early Sept.? :-) Ling.Nut 03:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I dunno. I'd like to do this, but it's just a matter of having enough time.  Mostly I'm here for about half an hour at a time and I can't write out a reasonable section since I also use that time to check over every other article that I'm maintaining and discussing changes to VG project games, too.  I'll do it as soon as I can, which will probably be before August/September. Gamer Junkie 03:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * And completely going against everything I just said, I went and wrote the whole thing right after adding the above point. Don't know if it's up to par, but check through and see what you think.  Also, dk, you'll need to add the section about Cao Cao and the Gnerals of the South since I don't have that information. Gamer Junkie 04:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Golden Wiki for User:Nlu
For unfailing dedication, keen insight and pleasant demeanor, for exceptional contributions to all topics related to China, this Gold Wiki is awarded to User:Nlu from the following members of WP;3K: (names here)...
 * text of award; feel free to edit


 * Hey, I wanna give User:Nlu a Golden Wiki Award collectively from WP:3K, for exceptional contributions to all topics related to China, and have the entire WP:3K crew endorse it with their sigs. Everybody in? Ling.Nut 14:38, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You don't need to ask for permission to hand out barnstars and awards (with a few exceptions like dyk)  OhanaUnited    Talk page   14:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * * No, that wasn't the point. :-) The point is that the award will be given collectively.
 * * But I did overlook the fact that we all live in different time zones.. making it hard for us all to put our sigs on it without staggering the sigs over three days and annoying Nlu :-) ... so I'll just include a list of everyone who endorses the award, in alphabetical order, in the award. So, if you wish to endorse the award, please add you sig below. Ling.Nut 15:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm in --EveryDayJoe45 17:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Nlu's certainly deserving of an award for his hard work, I'll add in my vote. Wizardman  20:52, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course! :) Sarazyn &bull; 丁人LK &bull; DE 21:14, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Add me into the list. Heck, we can just give him the award on behalf of the whole WikiProject. _dk 22:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Yeah, but in my opinion it sorta looks more... well more more if all the names are listed. But I don't wanna put anyone's name unless they agree. Ling.Nut
 * No he doesn't deserve it, I hate him... haha, of course I'll sign it! He deserves it. Gamer Junkie 02:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * OK I'll do it in about three minutes from now... Ling.Nut 02:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * OK done! Ling.Nut 03:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, he deserves the award.--PericlesofAthens 03:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

(undent) I'll add you... Ling.Nut 03:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Now we should give one to User:Deadkid_dk. I would say you too Ling.Nut, but you're kind of our leader. But anyway can we give out awards to people such as _dk or anyone in the ptoject for that matter? --EveryDayJoe45 04:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Any editor can give out an award for whatever reason he/she pleases. There is a list of Barnstar awards here for future reference: WP:BARNSTARS. Gamer Junkie 05:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so much, guys. I haven't had the chance to edit a whole lot lately due to my being busy, and I appreciate the cheer-up. --Nlu (talk) 05:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Red Cliffs: American English or British English?
I've been discussing this with Ling.Nut and we've decided to bring it up here. The article is, at the moment, written entirely in American English. However, the article uses metric units (kilometres) in the descriptions and not imperial units (miles) which I feel presents a discrepancy in style. Considering we're on an FA push with this article, I've suggested that we change the style to British English to keep it all uniform. Ling has no problem with this, and I'll make the change, provided that nobody opposes this for any specific reason. Gamer Junkie 08:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm going to assume that everybody is fine with this and go ahead with the change. Gamer Junkie 09:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)