Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trucks/Archive 2

Haul length
I noticed that short haul and long haul redirect to flight length. Is there a trucking article about these topics? -- 70.51.46.15 (talk) 10:33, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

International trucks without the Harvester
For some time I have been concerned that these vehicles are described here in Wikimedia as International Harvester trucks when they are not.

After a certain amount of discussion with other parties I thought I would raise the subject here before going ahead and categorising all the images by production year, omitting Harvester in the new category names— planning to move on through to a better categorisation of models than the current kind of organically grown collection of categories. I plan to do that too dropping the word Harvester from category names.

It is very difficult to create rational categories when there are almost no images to be organised. Now we have plenty of images. Categorising by production year is a good way to get started.

Does anyone have any strong feelings that the word Harvester should be retained in the name of the truck category? Thanks in advance etc. Eddaido (talk) 01:39, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * US HD trucks rarely change by model year. You can use the same cab for five-ten years with no visible change . Maybe a grill. On images it wouldn't be realistic to do years on HD trucks (you might need a builder's plate to tell). I don't know PUs. Sammy D III (talk) 13:05, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I have to admit that's slowed me up a bit. It does happen that photographers include a date for the vehicle, for example here. Maybe (if a year is not supplied) they could be given the first production year of that exact model? Needs to be thought about doesn't it. Eddaido (talk) 13:22, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I believe you are still thinking "automobile". Once you lose the year-styling change the year doesn't mean much. I might not know the year of the truck I was driving if it wasn't mine. There is far more difference between "options" than years. Your link is to someone who is proud of his truck. Won't most be of one driving past somewhere?
 * When you are doing years could you put in links to all model cats built that year? You would send them to the specific truck's own cat which covers the entire production run?
 * There is a lot of duplication with different names between the International trucks cat and the International Harvester sub-cat. That is a real mess. The Harvester sub-cat stuff could be changed or deleted and the Harvester sub-cat could go.
 * Have a nice day/night. Sammy D III (talk) 21:58, 5 September 2017 (UTC)


 * My idea was to begin by allocating production years to everything because that sorts like with like. As you point out the second part of the job is to fit each truck image into the right model. The idea is to end up with every image having at least two categories: one for the model of truck and a second for the (maybe first year of production) year of the truck. Yes, quite true, my experience is with automobiles. I have tried also with European automobiles, in particular with MG where the product changes little over quite a number of product years. Still, I do agree it is much more usual for a car to be described by its year even if it is an MG.


 * I plan for the duplications etc to come out in the wash - if that makes sense. I got started on this because I tried to categorise an image of an International truck and found it almost impossible. I've already begun on the period up to 1920 so it will be easier to explain any questions and also in the hope of attracting some attention and bringing about some discussion on this page. Maybe I'm going ahead boldly but I am trying to 'proceed with caution'. Yes, thank you, it is a nice new day here and a very good one to be well away from the Caribbean. Thanks, Eddaido (talk) 22:39, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * You came back fast, I was going to delete that "duplication". You are on the idea anyway. I can't quite follow the first year and will watch.
 * I'm glad to talk, give you someplace to explain. I talk to myself about trucks.
 * EDIT: There are a bunch of New Zealand trucks down there.
 * Mike's (crashed) TR-4 was faster than my (rusty) 69 BGT but Frank's clean AH 3000, a generation earlier, stunk of class and was the fastest of all. In retrospect they were really crappy cars, but I think that was the most comfortable driving position ever. And I will never forget the shifter. Sammy D III (talk) 23:22, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * They were newer in my day ;) first a TR2, best gearbox, AH 100/6 had a seriously tired engine that pressurised its crankcase and sprayed smoke and oil over others once I had passed them, MGB and last CGT. Eddaido (talk) 00:35, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Heads-up on File:1933 International truck (12402753254).jpg. Sammy D III (talk) 15:28, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Had a look at the file but unable to find a problem. More info please. Eddaido (talk) 00:35, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * My mistake, I got confused. I saw you putting things in year cats without taking them out of anything. I thought you accidently took the image out of "IH trucks" when you put it in a year. I now see you put it in a better "name" sub-cat. Sorry. Sammy D III (talk) 01:12, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Harvester pt 2
The cats "Navistar International 7000 series" and "International WorkStar" are the same truck, the name was added. I put "7000 series" up a level so it could be seen. Maybe a cat like "International WorkStar (7000 series)"? "International TransStar (8000 series)" is already done that way. WorkStar and TransStar are current names.
 * That makes sense to me

EDIT: I put a world "Ford Trucks" cat into "Trucks in the United States". If you re-named it I could throw anything non-US out? Sammy D III (talk) 20:47, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I think "Trucks in the United States" is meant to cover trucks physically within the United States. So, I guess, it should not have the manufacturer categories feeding into it. It used to be Trucks of the United States when Infrogmation added Chevrolet trucks to it in August 2008 but it was soon changed to the current title. I suspect absolutely all the pictures of Chevrolet trucks (no matter where in the world they may be) should not be there and of course the same with Ford. I think this matter, this apparent mistake, should be referred to Wikimedia administration because (to me) its clearly wrong yet its been like that for almost a decade. Maybe they could reassure both of us. Eddaido (talk) 01:28, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I had assumed that it was trucks physically inside the US. In my new "Diamond T/REO trucks" cat I excluded Australia and Canada. I wish I had put US in the title (half of my edits are to fix the other half).
 * ''I think you should include all the trucks, worldwide, then have a separate category for those "Diamond T/REO trucks"in the US
 * I put a few cats from "Trucks" to "Trucks USA" even though they were international. You HAVE to have Ford and Chevy trucks in the US, even if they bring other countries in with them. You HAVE to have Ford.
 * Mmm. If you want to separate out those in the US you will have to do it on each image
 * I don't know what you can do with cats (or explain this question). Can you make a new cat (Truck name US?), put the old images and sub-cats into it, and make all the cat-links on the old images and sub-cats have the new cat's name? Sort of like "Save as..." Changing those by hand would be a monster pain.
 * I think something can be done with a search then cat-a-lot but I'm not certain.
 * If I can get an international cat with a US name I can just throw away non-US stuff. They would still be in the international cat, we don't have to mess with them now.
 * Yeah. By categorising each individual US image as (Reo) trucks in the USA you would get the right answer I think.
 * Do we need an admin? There are two of us who care, it would probably take two to object. Nobody ever comes here, we might be able to play and be gone before anyone noticed. It would be nice to have some support, but just no opposition is a victory for me. I HATE Wiki politics. Sammy D III (talk) 15:24, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I think we are being read by other editors though of course I cannot tell how much they care. If they really don't care at all I guess that means so long as we come to a joint agreement and its all public and transparent we ought to be safe from dire punishments. Oughtn't we to be? Sorry I did not read this the other day but here now are my responses
 * Well, you got me addicted. I want to make a talk page at the cat. Do you mind if I use some of your stuff for a beginning? You can preview and ok it if you want. Nice day/night. Sammy D III (talk) 21:00, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Please do that. If I did not entirely agree with what you wrote I can say so later. Regards, Eddaido (talk) 00:34, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I have moved to


 * (I can't link it).


 * Sammy D III (talk) 19:07, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Me too, I made the sort of kind of link above by accident! Eddaido (talk) 08:57, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Original location
Most of this has been edited from https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Categories_for_discussion/2017/09/Category:International_Harvester_trucks (I can't get that link right). I have edited it drastically here. There is a lot of content, including dissenting opinions, there.

My basic point is
Trucks built by "International Harvester Company" (and Navistar) are branded "International". This is true from at least 1914 (the 1908 "International Gasoline Auto Buggies" uses it before trademark) until the present. (I have posted this in many places).

The problem
Everything is labeled "Harvester" so you think that way. And we all know the connection because we know trucks. But all the trucks have "International". People have brought the "Harvester" thinking in with them. And it is not the name of the truck itself.

I don't think I have found the word "Harvester" used outside Wikipedia or sights possibly using Wikipedia as a source. Of course there must be many who got it wrong on their own, but it looks to me like Wikipedia is telling everyone incorrect information across the board.

My arguments in favor of "International"
The first paragraph of the second page explains the brand name.

Seventy-five years of "International Harvester Company" brochures for "International" trucks are here:

This is an updated list of my sources:

Arguments in favor of "International Harvester"
mr.choppers (talk)posted: "I looked at the evidence (and some further old ads) and support such a renaming. This does not...(relates to other problems). As a matter of good practice it may always be a good idea to contact editors with previous involvement,such as ping|BarnCas. Cheers. (That was for context, not his position)
 * DanTD posted "I have to oppose such a move, partially because of the old ads that user|Mr.choppers mentioned, and partially because of the long-standing use of the File:International Harvester logo.png|"IH" logo designed by w|Raymond Loewy.

BarnCas seems to make his argument based primarily on the hood ornament and his interpretation of it. He questions the sources given by me above. He does make other points".

"As said in Navistar corporate site: "The year 1986 brought a new beginning to this 155 year old company, now known as Navistar.". International Harvester and (Navistar) International are practically 2 different brands: the latter emerged only when IH sold all its farming activities, leading, among other things, the logo and the badge lettering to be changed. Trucks made before 1986 were indeed apparently proposed as International only but were unequivocally claimed to be International Harvester products: one can see it when looking at contemporary ads or brochures, where the IH logo and International Harvester Company can be seen every time at the end of the documents. That also appears in the 1910 Roadster specs visible in Sammy D III's first link: it starts with "Introducing the IHC roadster [...]".
 * Moreover, and as almost said by DanTD, the IH logo appeared somewhere on the grille of almost all trucks as brand logo starting with the 1953+ R-Series and until 1985 (see the 1981+ 9670, the 1983+ 9370...). For me, and without hesitation, all of this makes the pre-1986 trucks more than (just) "International" models: they're clearly "International Harvester" ones.

About the IHC 1910 Roadster: a single counterexample in mathematics or logic is enough to question the main assertion. And this is the same for sources, for me. And to be honest, I didn't have to search a lot, I just checked the first vehicles. How many other counterexamples are present in the rest of the document you linked? As far as I know, logos in the grille / hood ornaments are brand logos. You see more likely Chevrolet or GMC logos on concerned vehicles than GM ones, Freightliner ones instead of Mercedes-Benz versions; Dodge or Chrysler in place of Fiat. I may be wrong, but I also see the IH logo as brand logo because of the change that took place with the switch between the L-Series (which used the same grille logo as the K/KB-Series and the previous truck lines) and the already mentioned R-Series:

If I'm not mistaken, IH stands here for International Harvester. And why would a brand logo be replaced by the one of the company owner?"

Much has been edited out, please go to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Categories_for_discussion/2017/09/Category:International_Harvester_trucks (I can't get that link right) at any time.

My close
I believe that trucks manufactured by "International Harvester Company" are branded "International". This could affect many articles. I hope someone will care and possibly do something. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 14:17, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Australia and Internationals
A search of Australian newspapers of the 1950s (it is suggested Australia may have been different from about this time, local manufacture in a temporary factory began in 1950) comes up with these results:
 * International trucks 20,927 records. Click here to view each of these results
 * International Harvester trucks 524 records. Click here

There is not one mention of Harvester in these pages freshly archived by the National Library of Australia
 * ‘’’Historic Trucks, Internationals and Kenworths’’’ National Library of Australia

And some more from 1950s Australia (no Harvesters, no Series but there are Lines): Eddaido (talk) 23:38, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * August 1950, International Trucks. manufacture has begun in temporary premises:
 * March 1953 . . . the first International truck works outside North America . . . |||l-title=809
 * September 1953 place your order now for . . . |||l-title=809
 * September 1954 Three new styles in International trucks
 * March 1957 Check this price list of famous International trucks |||l-year=1957
 * April 1957 International trucks |||l-year=1957
 * August 1957 All truck from the ground up |||l-year=1957
 * October 1957 Golden Anniversary |||l-year=1957
 * May 1959 Internationals Harvesters Cavalcade of Trucks . . . Particulars of all International trucks etc may be obtained from . . . |||l-year=1959
 * May 1959 Line (not series) |||l-year=1959
 * May 1959 New Mighty AA Line |||l-year=1959 - the linked ad has the word "line" in the header and the word "series" in the body text.  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  17:49, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Yikes
That's a lot of stuff. Can we agree on voting on one thing and not worrying about Line vs Series or any other secondary concerns? Let's keep the discussion focused or it will never be finished. I am in favor of dropping the "Harvester" portion as per the thousands of manuals and brochures. The "IH" badging is not proof of anything, many cars have badges which display the manufacturer's name (a variety of British Leyland vehicles, GM applied GM badges from 2005 to 2009, etc etc) rather than the name they go by. I also added a requested move header to International Harvester Light Line pickup, feel free to add it where necessary.  Mr.choppers &#124;  ✎  17:46, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Brand now, models later. Please. Sammy D III (talk) 18:39, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That flag had it's own flag, as soon as I took it down a different one showed up. It seemed to work then. Sammy D III (talk) 23:09, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I was able to use a little different thing on a lot of article talkpages. I signed my name. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 01:24, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I think this is where a response should end up... This discussion is kind of tricky and I have to wonder if we are reading too much into things here, but it can be best summarized this way.  From 1901 to 1986, International Harvester sold its agricultural products under the International name, along with several other brand names (such as Farmall); its road vehicles (ranging from light trucks to the Transtar and Paystar) also wore the International brand name.  After 1986, IHC survived only as a truck and engine manufacturer, changing its name to Navistar, continuing the trucks under the International brand name.


 * In other words, brand now, models later. While the above is fairly clear (coming straight out of the WP IHC and Navistar articles), this isn't the point to figure out whether or not to rename a couple dozen related articles.  Citing the badging example, there are several versions of IHC trucks with both "International" and the "IH" badge, so the proof of either name is unknown. --SteveCof00 (talk) 08:09, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
 * EDIT: Looking back, I don't think this comments on your post. It's general.
 * I am sorry, but I am having a lot of trouble understanding this logo thinking. I don't mean to be snotty, POV again I guess. And I sometimes answer so fast because I am bored.
 * There is a fan club for this logo. Fine. It was probably on every truck between Lowey and the Navastar collapse. If you don't see the logo then it probably broke off. It was used, there isn't any question, correct? The name doesn't change the logo, the logo was unquestionably there and can be used in the exactly the same place in the article?
 * IHC built farm equipment, trucks, and construction equipment. That logo was everywhere. If you were selling a truck to a farmer wouldn't you want to identify it with his tractor and front-loader? Especially if you make more tractors than anyone else and your customers are happy with them.
 * Why does IHC/Navistar matter to the truck titles? Shouldn't the builder be in the lead, not the title? They are the evolving company building evolving trucks. The only difference between late IHCs and early Navistars is a smoothed out hood and trim details. They were built in the same factories. Frankly, trucks don't change much.
 * If a reader looks at a truck they will see "International" and a model name (not now!). Will they know the builder at all or are they looking at the truck? If someone cares about builders won't they go to IHC or Navistar and work their way down? Do amateurs know/care about the difference in builder's names? Remember, it is important to us, but we are not typical readers.
 * VERY PREMATURE: I think the link to International Harvester Company in the lead should at least have "Company" spelled out. Could it be bold? Scream it at them, the company is historically important.
 * Thank you for coming. Sammy D III (talk) 12:11, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 25 September 2017

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. After extended discussion, it is clear that there would be legitimate grounds in policy to make these moves, but there is an absence of a clear consensus favoring the moves. I would suggest waiting a few months and then marshaling a more complete move proposal backed by a complete picture of prevailing usage over time. bd2412 T 20:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

– All vehicles built by IHC appear to have been marketed as Internationals and should be titled accordingly. Sammy D III (talk) 01:17, 23 September 2017 (UTC) --Relisting.  Dr Strauss   talk   16:56, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
 * International Harvester A-Series → International A-Series
 * International Harvester C-Series → International C-Series
 * International Harvester Fleetstar → International Fleetstar
 * International Harvester K and KB Series → International K and KB Series
 * International Harvester L-Series → International L-Series
 * International Harvester Light Line pickup → International Light Line pickups
 * International Harvester Loadstar → International Loadstar
 * International Harvester R-Series → International R-Series
 * International Harvester S-Series → International S-Series
 * International Harvester Scout → International Scout
 * International Harvester Travelall → International Travelall

–Refactored as a multi-move request and re-submitted on behalf of. – wbm1058 (talk) 03:01, 25 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Procedural note – This request does not intend to move the WikiProject. I'm submitting it here as the centralized discussion area because of the considerable prior discussion in the above sections. While this is open I may work on enhancing and the RM templates to provide better support for hosting discussions on WikiProject talk pages. – wbm1058 (talk) 03:01, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I just refactored the RM to remove the request to move the WikiProject. – wbm1058 (talk) 11:42, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * Support Trucks built by International Harvester have been trade-marked "International" since 1914. The first paragraph of the second page explains the brand name. Seventy-five years of IHC brochures for "International" trucks are here: . I think that's pretty good. Sammy D III (talk) 15:55, 25 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose 'international a series' sounds quite vague, even if there aren't rival uses of the term in wikipedia right now, what about 5,10,20 years from now. Given the huge scope of wikipedia, I would say people should always use the most specific title possible MfortyoneA (talk) 22:45, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you realize that "International" is a proper name, not a term? I am trying to ask if all the trucks are named "International" or "International Harvester". I am trying very hard to not talk about models. "Oppose" means you want to keep the name "Internatonal Harvester", correct? Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 00:44, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
 * User:MfortyoneA has been blocked indefinitely as a sock puppet. Sammy D III (talk) 17:14, 3 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose I do not see any reason to remove part of the legal name of the trucks from the article pages. Historically this would not be done for the title, but the article itself would simply include verbiage such as "or commonly referred to simply as International. "Harvester" is part of the legal name of the vehicles and should remain in the titles of the pages. Steve Lux, Jr. (talk) 12:11, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Sir, I am discussing what the "legal" name of the trucks is. International Harvester itself calls them only "International". Any chance I could get you back for a chat? Sammy D III (talk) 17:24, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The legal name of the brand is/was "International Harvester". I still do not understand why this is such an issue. Steve Lux, Jr. (talk) 17:43, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Sir, the name of the manufacturer is "International Harvester", who says the truck is "trade name International”. Could I get you to look at the links I posted above In the blog looking page the fifth paragraph of "A History of... If you download the PDF you get an original International Harvester document, the first paragraph of the second page has the name.
 * These brochures. also show the brand name International for almost all trucks built between 1914 and the 1970s.
 * The section directly above this one has discussion on this, too. EDIT: I deleted nine other sources up there to make it easier to read.
 * If you have any source for the legal name of the truck line not being "International" only could you please link it? Sammy D III (talk) 19:04, 28 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Support based on precedent. There are many, many vehicles which carry one brand whilst being made by a conglomerate with a different name. And Wikipedia lists them by their brand, mentioning the manufacturer and corporate owner in the text. We don't title articles "Volkswagen Group Audi A4", or "British Leyland Jaguar XJ-6" etc. It seems this International / International Harvester example causes such confusion because the brand is a sub-set of the corporate name. But in similar cases the precedent still holds; e.g. we don't say "Daimler-Chrysler Crossfire". – Kieran T  (' talk ') 12:36, 26 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Support, Kieran T sums it up pretty well and I think Sammy D III has proven that they were indeed marketed as Internationals.  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  14:09, 26 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Support because it is International Harvester's name for their trucks as shown in the Wisconsin Historical Society's collection of International truck specification sheets 1907 to 1984. Eddaido (talk) 02:37, 29 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, which states Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources). Also, Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title and "International" is a generic word that cannot be trademarked. Most acceptable sources include the word "Harvester". — Za  wl  10:13, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * User talk:Zawl has been blocked at their own request and it doesn't look to me like they will be back. Sammy D III (talk) 19:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)


 * A little conventional research will show WP:COMMONNAME requires the Harvester word be omitted even after years of misleading naming by Wikipedia. Eddaido (talk) 10:18, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * You have something that shows that "International Harvester" is (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) the most common name? I have


 * Eddaido has these from Australia:
 * I don't think I have found the word "Harvester" used outside Wikipedia or sights possibly using Wikipedia as a source. I think this is assumed by people who are close to IHC, but I have seen no evidence to support "Harvester", and we have been looking at plenty of sources. Any chance I can get you to reconsider? Sammy D III (talk) 12:05, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Really, because I've heard the word "Harvester" long before the internet existed, let alone Wikipedia. And I never saw that part of the name eliminated until the purchase by Navistar. -User:DanTD (talk) 03:10, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Com'on Dan, I'm asking about the name brand of the truck, not the company. You won't address a mountain of sources. Is this personal? Can't you give me something to answer instead of sarcasm? I have been square with you, correct? Please give me an honest chance? Sammy D III (talk) 07:02, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * 1939 International Jungle Yacht Truck, Commander Gatti.jpg. ]]

Displayed here are the first two illustrations and their captions on the Wikipedia International Harvester article (but default size and side by side)

It looks as if they were inserted by User:Tillman (one of the 4000 most active English Wikipedians of all time) on 2 August 2014 Eddaido (talk) 08:35, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

This comes from User talk:DanTD: (The first post was "On 25 August 2017" from below)
 * I don't know where you get this from. I actually did show some evidence of the name "International Harvester," being the correct name even when only the words "International" were spelled out on logos along the trucks. The only thing preventing me from breaking out any of my books by Tad Burness as further evidence is that they're in storage and pretty worn out. Everything I've learned over the years indicated that the trucks were named "International Harvester." The "H" in the logo wasn't there for no reason. When Case Tractors bought IHC's entire tractor division, they renamed their tractors "Case IH." I'm sorry if you think my rejection of your proposal is based on bad faith. -User:DanTD (talk) 12:28, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * All you gave me over there was a cheap shot. What source have you shown? It/they refute all my sources? How many "Burnes" books do you have? More than I have shown?
 * I am trying to avoid "Everything I've learned over the years indicated that the trucks were named "International Harvester."" because it is subjective. I don't care what you have learned, I am interested in what you can source. You know I think prejudice is a major factor.
 * Have you read either or more than one of the brocures here: ? Openly minded?
 * I thought you were open-minded. Somewhere you said one vague line that I thought might be because you may have mis-understanded something. I asked you an honest question and I got a cheap shot. I believe that your "rejection of your proposal is based on" ignorance of the sources. Possibly dislike of me. I do not think you have given Wikipedia a fair chance to be correct. Sammy D III (talk) 12:57, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Cheap shot? How did you come up with that? I did actually show you the logo. As for my Burness collection, they include "The American Truck and Bus Spotters Guide; 1920-1985," "Pickup and Van Spotter's Guide 1945-1982," "Pickup and Van Spotter's Guide 1945-1992," and others that aren't related to trucks. Nothing I've said here is against you personally, and I'm baffled over how you've come to this conclusion. -User:DanTD (talk) 13:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Have you looked at that IHC history page? That is a IHC library sight it is on. McCormack merged into IHC. If you download the PDF you get an original IHC document. All the brochures are IHC Those are also originals from the McCormack library.
 * We both have books. I have listed a ton. I have quoted some. Don't bother getting yours, I believe you. How many are from the same author/publisher? Do different arrangements of the same information count separatly? Shop manuals. Does each year of each vehicle count separately? I would think that each publisher should count for one. Would you prefer a guidebook over a shop manuals?
 * Has the word "Harvester" appeared anywhere on any truck as built since 1914 other than on the builder's plate? Does the logo used on the trucks say "Harvester?
 * I don't understand this hood ornament thing. So what? The name doesn't change the hood ornament in any way. Someone else addressed this over there.
 * I think this should go over there. Maybe you want to make an oppose over there and use what you want from here. My first post is already there, on the botton.
 * This is so frustrating. I absolutely know first hand from trucks I have driven and relatives who have worked for IHC since before the IHC merge. Why will you people not just take a step back, park your emotions, and just read? Then just say "oops"?
 * EDIT: I just realized you have the wrong section title. You are supposed to be an "Objectively". Sorry. Sammy D III (talk) 14:25, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * You seem far more emotional over this than I am. The "IH" logo stands for "International Harvester." There's also one ad boasting "International Harvester engines save you big money." This ad names the company as "International Harvester Company." By the way, I'm perfectly aware of the merger with McCormick, Deering, and other companies. I also recognize the original Auto Buggies and Auto Wagons had the turn of the century IHC logos. -User:DanTD (talk) 14:45, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The ad you just sent me has "International" 8 times plus the "International Trucks" title across the bottom. It says IHC Chicago once, and says IHC "Builds". You sent that to me.
 * Again, who cares about the logo? I don't understand this hood ornament thing. So what? The name doesn't change the hood ornament in any way. Someone else addressed this above. Sammy D III (talk) 15:21, 4 October 2017 (UTC)


 * What are you trying to gain here? International Harvester trucks, are International Harvester trucks. I own one myself. Why are you trying so hard to discredit this brand by trying to wipe out the historical name of the company and trucks. Just because the short name or street name may commonly drop the "Harvester" part, does not mean that they were not called "International Harvester". The word "International" alone is so broad that it would be ridiculous to remove a crucial part of the name. Enough already. Steve Lux, Jr. (talk) 17:09, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * If you own an International truck you can look at it and tell me where it says "Harvester" other than the builder's plate? You may have one on the dashboard? Seriously. Have you looked at any of my sources like ? No? IHC's own history isn't good for you? Why is using the correct name for a vehicle "discredit"ing the vehicle? If IHC sells the trucks as "International" does that make it a "short name or street name"? Your entire arguement rests on "International Harvester trucks, are International Harvester trucks." with not a single source. I am trying to get a major truck brand name used instead of the manufacturers name, which the truck is not sold as. Is it a "Ford Motor (manufacturer) Mustang" or is it a "Ford (brand) Mustang". You chose to not use "Motor" in "Ford Mustang", why would you use "International Harvester (manufacturer) Truck model" for an "International (brand) Truck model"? Why do you not use "Motor" but do use "Harvester"?
 * EDIT: Are you picking up on the difference between the manufacturer's name and the brand name they sell things as? That the International Harvester Company builds trucks and then sells them as "International Trucks"?
 * Another EDIT: You are saying that the "brand name" of a truck can not be used because it is too common? IHC can not use the name "International" because you think it is too common? wbm1058 has addressed that below. Sammy D III (talk) 22:27, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * "International" brand name trucks have been sold continuously for 103 years. That is a very long and historic length of time, isn't it? The "International Harvester Company" itself lasted 85 years. Navistar is only a reorganization of IHC, the same brand name trucks have been built and evolved in the same factories by the same people. I think that the brand name that has been used continuously for more than a hundred years deserves respect. Should the manufacturer's name be the last words in the first sentence of the lead? Sammy D III (talk) 01:04, 6 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. After going through the policies on article titles, it makes the most sense to keep things as-is for a couple of reasons.  Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred.  In this case, this is where it gets tricky.  In addition to the consensus (or lack thereof?) here, there is also the issue of precision and disambiguation that needs to be covered.  (This is mostly because of the word International over anything else...not everyone is familiar with vehicles or from America, so this could create a point of confusion).  --SteveCof00 (talk) 20:11, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for coming. Does wbm1058's comment below "Regarding concerns that "International"...examples" relate? Any truck that uses "International" will automatically have the proper model name with the first letter capitalized behind it? "International Loadstar" or whatever? EDIT: I think I have "most typically used in reliable sources" pretty well covered. Ask about it? Sammy D III (talk) 20:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
 * This is just a quick count of some confusing stuff. I count: 4 Support, 1 Opposed (blocked sock), 1 Opposed (self-blocked and no longer in discussion), 2 Oppose, and 1 Oppose assumed but not noted (DanTD). 4 Support and 2+1 assumed Opposed. Sammy D III (talk) 23:13, 5 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose, for consistency with the parent article International Harvester. This is essentially a descriptive title, so we should make it as precise as necessary to identify the subject. "International A-Series" sounds more like a sporting event, and will not be recognizable except to those immediately associated with IH. For example, when Googling, top results include things like a drill Even articles saying "International A-series" use it interchangeably with "IH A-Series", suggesting there's no definite common name. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 10:49, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you have any doubt that International Harvester sells these trucks under the brand "International"? Can I address those doubts? Do you have any doubt that "International" is not the commonly used name? Can I address those doubts?
 * Your position is that Wikipedia should invent names for their own use? "consistency with the parent article"? Wikipedia itself made the "parent article" so the name "International Harvester" is made up to match a Wikipedia article, not the actual name of the vehicle. "descriptive title"? Not the name of the vehicle? "as precise as necessary to identify the subject"? The proper name of the motor vehicle is not "precise" enough?
 * It is the "Ford Motor Company"? They sell trucks branded "Ford". It is the "International Harvester Company"? They sell trucks branded "International". Why do you not use "Motor" but do use "Harvester"?
 * Once again, Wikipedia is inventing a name that the vehicle never used because it is easier for Wikipedia, not because it is the actual name of the vehicle''. Wikipedia "housekeeping" seems more important than actual facts. Sammy D III (talk) 11:40, 7 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Support. The manufacturer is International Harvester, but the make of their trucks is simply, International, with only a few instances found where the model name included "Harvester", such as International Harvester Scout in the late 1970s. Think of this as analogous to General Motors Corporation, the manufacturer, and GMC, the make, but not quite. Common sense would tell you that the company's branding strategy would avoid placing the moniker "Harvester", intended for their combine harvesters, on their trucks. Those claiming that "International" is too generic a word to let stand by itself need to address why it is acceptable to do just that with Navistar International's trucks such at the International XT, and how to name a truck such as the International Harvester S-Series which for most of its life was made by Navistar, after they had dropped the "Harvester" name, because they sold that division to Case (see Case IH). I've been trying to maintain some neutrality so that I could credibly close this, but I've become too involved at this point not to take a position. Closing admin: Please do your best to filter out the noise and find the strongest arguments. Sammy, please do not reply to my statement of support. Rebuttals from the opposition are welcome, though. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:37, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * please reconsider your opposes after reading my rationale in support above, and additional thoughts in the discussion section below. I'm still hoping we can get a more definitive consensus on this RM which has been open for 27 days now. Thanks. wbm1058 (talk) 13:57, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * International truck grille (31477941).jpg Note here the modern International Truck logo. They no longer use the "iH" logo. wbm1058 (talk) 13:57, 19 October 2017 (UTC)


 * The Google Ngram indicates that the COMMON NAME doesn't include "Harvester", and never has. wbm1058 (talk) 14:29, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Whereas General Motors Truck was once the common name for GMC trucks. Google books 1922–1933. wbm1058 (talk) 14:43, 19 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose. This can be argued both ways, so I'm going to invoke Andrew's Principle and suggest we leave it as it is. However the redlinks should all become redirects. Andrewa (talk) 12:11, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Is your comment about the name itself, or about the procedure? If you have any doubts about the name itself could we talk (if I try to be very polite)? If it is about the procedure (not the red links, no problem there), agree to disagree?. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 14:16, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The !vote is about the names. Not sure what you mean about procedure, but both are up for discussion. Andrewa (talk) 19:01, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't understand. You sent me to "vote"? Oh well, have a nice day/night. Sammy D III (talk) 22:24, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:


 * Everything in Wikipedia is labeled "Harvester" so you think that way. But all the trucks are named "International". People have brought the "Harvester" thinking in with them. And it is not the name of the truck itself.


 * I don't think I have found the word "Harvester" used for truck names outside Wikipedia or sights possibly using Wikipedia as a source. Eddaido and I have found maybe 25 sources supporting "International" and have seen no source really disputing it. Of course there must be many others who got it wrong on their own, but it looks to me like Wikipedia is telling everyone incorrect information across the board. Sammy D III (talk) 13:05, 26 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Note that there is a lengthy related discussion at commons:Commons:Categories for discussion/2017/09. That may be of interest, though English Wikipedia operates somewhat independently of Wikimedia commons. Both projects have a Category:International Harvester vehicles, but commons subdivides that into several subcategories while English Wikipedia does not. For discussion of categories on English Wikipedia, see WP:Categories for discussion. – wbm1058 (talk) 12:58, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Regarding concerns that "International" is a brand name that's too generic: see All pages with titles beginning with International. We already have the redirect International (truck) (since 2005–06), so I suppose any naming conflicts would be resolved with something like International X series (truck). We already have some near misses, such as International A-Class (catamaran) and International A Class (radio controlled sailing yacht), and International 806 (sloop-rigged sailing yacht) – just a few examples. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:46, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Only one "oppose" has addressed one page of one of the mountain of sources I have supplied. I don't think any other person disputing my position has addressed even that one page. Not one "oppose" has come up with a single source that disputes "International" only. Nobody will give me anything except personal opinions with no source. What is the advantage to "stonewalling" instead of discussing? Sammy D III (talk) 07:39, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
 * On 25 August 2017 a mistake in the name of "International" was shown to me. Since then I have tried to correct this one mistake.
 * I have driven International trucks, used their state registration cards, insurance cards, read their operators manuals, and talked with others who did the same. Of course this would be OR in an article, but we are on a talk page. I can post the truth and you can call me a liar.
 * Anyone close to International trucks can walk right up to a ratty S truck in a parking lot and look at it. Of course you don't have to, and you can't use it in an article, but you can use it as background. If you can't/won't do that you could at least read sources objectively.
 * We keep providing sources for using the name "International" and nobody provides any source disputing it. Of course not. Even if someone could come up with a single source disputing it the number of supporting sources should overwhelm it anyway.
 * People have used their own opinions with no sources to oppose something which has been overwhelming sourced. Some have edited these articles (I have, too). I think some people are too close and can have an ingrained opinion that they can/will not look at objectively.
 * I believe people are standing in the way of correcting Wikipedia for their own personal reasons. People who are objective can look at and discuss evidence. And if you are only subjective should you be editing an encyclopedia?
 * Feel free to call me a liar who is only trying to help my ego. But when this move request fails Wikipedia will still be presenting incorrect information across the board and some people did nothing to correct it, not even consider it honestly. Sammy D III (talk) 10:28, 4 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Sources supporting International Harvester Scout: Popular Science Sep 1979 Ski Mar 1979 Popular Science Jun 1978 International Harvester Scout: The Complete Illustrated History Widowmaker: A Novel wbm1058 (talk) 03:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * However, usage is inconsistent. "Harvester" is omitted in these: Popular Mechanics Jan 1976 Field & Stream Jun 1980 LIFE Aug 6, 1965 Popular Science May 1980 Perhaps there was a short time that IH included "Harvester" in their marketing, ca. 1978–79. Maybe as test, which if it didn't drive a sales increase, could have been relatively quickly reversed. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:56, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Sir, how do your sources compare with mine? One is a novel, should it be used? And I have a ton of stuff.
 * Good catch with the ads that do have "Harvester". I think your idea of "marketing" sounds good. IHC would have been collapsing into the Navistar reorganization about then. Grasping at straws? Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 15:09, 7 October 2017 (UTC)


 * International Truck and Engine Corporation is New Name of Navistar's Operating Company February 22, 2000
 * International Truck has redirected to Navistar International for over a decade. One thing largely overlooked in this discussion is that many of the trucks in the International Truck product line are already titled without the "Harvester" name.
 * International XT, produced 2004–2008 (Navistar International XT)
 * International Lonestar, produced 2008-Present (Navistar International Lonestar)
 * Then there's International Harvester S-Series and International Harvester S-Series (bus chassis), produced over 25 years, 1977-2004 which is well past the 1985–86 dropping of the "Harvester" name and renaming of International Harvester to Navistar International. How do we accommodate the renaming of a single truck line from International Harvester S-Series to Navistar International S-Series, other than shortening the name to International S-Series? wbm1058 (talk) 18:49, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * A very simple background: International Harvester was failing in the 1980s. They sold off their farm and construction equipment and became truck-only Navistar. With new money they improved their old truck designs. The trucks continued in production as brand name "International" throughout the reorganization. Most model names were changed. Later new designs were introduced with new names Sammy D III (talk) 22:42, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * EDITED in: International Harvester S-Series "First generation" paragraph three explains the "S" change. This is not a source, just background. I did not write any of this section, I did put one footnote in it. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 16:41, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Again, we are talking about the manufacturer's name. Why? Both International Harvester and Navistar built "International" branded trucks. Why is the manufacturer's name in the title? Shouldn't it be in the lead?
 * There were no Navistar S-trucks because they changed the name (and hood) until the new designs were ready. I think the 4000/8000 is probably in the "S" article because I somebody added it as a generation. Same truck, different model name, that would be my thinking. Nobody wrote a "4000/8000" article and I didn't bother . Why care what the manufacturer's name is, especially since it is the same company building the same (or direct evolution) trucks? Same employees in the same plants?
 * I think that there is probably a "S class bus chassis" article is because International built chassis for most of the school busses in the US and someone (Steveof00) cared. They probably build the most now as Navistar.
 * Why does the manufacturer's name belong in the title? Whoever built the truck, the brand name is still "International". Isn't this the same deal as the logos? The "Ford Motor Mustang"?
 * What else can I say about the brand verses manufacturer? Please??? Sammy D III (talk) 20:37, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Sources, and not addressing them
Questions about "International" being either the "legal" or "common" name keep coming up. I believe I have sourced both overwhelmingly.

A History of International Trucks trucks.html has a signed document on IHC letterhead that can be downloaded. Look at the title. Not one oppose has ever addressed this link, or even said that they have been there. Boy that link went dead fast! There are three other histories in "Extended content".

Seventy-five years of IHC brochures for "International" trucks has had one page questioned by one person. No other oppose has even said that they have been there.

This is from the same museum's IHC collection. Every link refers to "International" trucks. In many IHC's farm equipment is also covered, but no truck has "Harvester". Sammy D III (talk) 00:27, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I believe I have shown that International Harvester sells its trucks under the name "International" without "Harvester".

I have 5 published books which support "International, and expect 3 to 5 more in a week. All are by different authors/publishers. I just posted a Google images link. two IHC "History" documents, Navistar's history link, other IHC documents, over seven published books, and some links. They are in the first "Extended content".

Eddaido has gotten mind-numbing numbers from Australia, how can there be any doubt about there? They are the second "Extended content".

One oppose has offered three guides by the same author which have not been checked even by him. I will assume that it/(they???) supports him. The only source shown by any oppose so far. Do different books by the same author count separately?

I believe We have shown that "International" is the name that they are commonly known as.

I believe Wikipedia is using the wrong name only for its own reasons, not for accuracy. Sammy D III (talk) 15:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)


 * The concept of "legal" vs. "common" name generally applies to companies, not products. See WP:NCCORP. I don't know if these trucks have "official" names or "legal" names that include "Harvester", but if they do then the convention implies omitting "Harvester" in the common-named article title, but then including "Harvester" in the boldfaced title shown in the lead sentence. – wbm1058 (talk) 03:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Sir, I believe the title should be accurate to the specific vehicle that the article is about. I can source IHC copywrite documents for almost every model that IHC has made using the name "International". I can show common useage. I can not get anyone to read or address any one of my sources. No oppose here has acknowledged that they have even seen one. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 12:38, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Remember the guidance given in the template at the top of this discussion, to keep discussion succinct and civil. Neutral closing administrators do not generally appreciate needing to wade through verbose arguments and talk of prejudice, cheap shots, etc.
 * Generally vehicles are listed by make and model. The question here is what the name of the make is. The company name may be different entirely. For example General Motors or GM is not the name of any specific make, though GMC comes close.
 * The Truck Blue Book finds 38 years of results when searching for "International", but comes up empty when searching for the make "International Harvester". – wbm1058 (talk) 14:48, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Note that in 1985–86 the "Harvester" name was dropped when International Harvester renamed itself Navistar International. You might expect model years 1981–84 to include "Harvester" in the make name, but they dont. wbm1058 (talk) 14:54, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * GM removed GM badges from their vehicles for marketing reasons explained in this article. Nobody would ever call a Buick Regal a GM Regal simply because it had a GM badge on it. I think the iH badge could reasonably be thought of in the same way, although this isn't a completely analogous situation as Buick has its own distinct "three shields" badge and is a distinctly different name than "General Motors", while "International" is simply a shortened name and doesn't have its own unique logo badge. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:17, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Sources supporting "International" only
Seventy-five years of IHC brochures for their trucks are here. After 1911 "International" is used in trucks without "Harvester". A rare exception is some late model Scouts.

Section "International Motor Truck" does not have the word "Harvester" in it.

Page 2 paragraph 2: "From 1914 until the present all International Harvester vehicles have carried the name "International"".

The first paragraph of the second page ends with "and the trade name "International" was not bestowed until 1914".

Page 14: "the design of the International truck..."the present International truck"..."International had become". Page 15: "International trucks"..."Modern Internationals"..."the International 4x4"..."of International trucks". These pages use "Harvester" and "the Company" to talk about plants, not trucks. Page 18-26 all picture captions say "International".

This is Navistar's own history. They refer to trucks as "International". From 1972 (IHC) until present (Navistar) they show "International ®".

is about the IHC/Navistar truck plant. It talks about the reorganization. The last sentence is: "Navistar International Corporation continues to manufacture...under the International brand name".

has "IHC Chicago" under the section title. Page 226 and 229 label the hood ornament logos as "IH". Everything else is "International", "International Trucks", or "International Motor trucks".

shows that trucks built for the military are "Internal Harvester Model xxx. Prototypes and civilian types are "International" or "International's", but occasionally some are "IHC's Model".

Page 401 is International Harvester, Melbourne, Australia. In the text "International Harvester" is repeatedly used as a company, but trucks are "International". Page 402-403 International Harvester, Chicago, Illinois, USA. Text says "the International name badge was adopted in 1914". All trucks after the "Auto Buggy" are "International", "International's", or just model numbers.

This history of the company uses "International Harvester", "International", "IH", "Navistar", and "the company" as names of companies. All trucks after the "Auto Wagon" are "International" or model only. Page 172 (about the Navistar name change): "The vehicles themselves would be known as International trucks, as always".

The first three paragraphs of the section "International" tell of early history. The last sentence of the third paragraph is "In 1914, the IHC was superseded with the name International". The word "Harvester" is not used again. The Navistar reorganization is in this section.

uses "International" or "International chassis".

index has "International" (915-953) and "International Diesel Engines" (1224-1249). The word "Harvester is never used in the index or either section.

This link is to a run-of-the mill commercial truck sales site. There are plenty of them. Search "Select a make" for "International" (there is no selection with "Harvester"). Look at the very oldest page (#472 for me). What do professionals who buy and sell trucks call them?

Google images  shows all factory Scout manuals are labeled "International". There are also some "international" sites that are confusing, but that is Wikipedia's issue, not people looking for an accurate "International Scout" article.

Google search for "International trucks" 126,000,000 results. Search for "International Harvester trucks 520,000 results.

Sources supporting "International Harvester"

 * (Sources supporting "International Harvester" could be inserted here)

Could I address any source supporting "International Harvester"? Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 16:55, 20 October 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

A new Summary
for the detail please use the diffs from the view history page Apologies to Sammy D III for no detail in the later stages but please be assured Sammy D II supports the change.
 * — International trucks without the Harvester
 * 01:39, 5 September 2017  Eddaido — Omit inserted Harvester from International truck categories
 * 13:07, 5 September 2017  Sammy D III — Year i.d. Not always easy
 * 13:24, 5 September 2017  Eddaido — poss. Solution = year model introduced
 * 21:59, 5 September 2017  Sammy D III — comment on current category names
 * 22:39, 5 September 2017  Eddaido — more about year i.d.
 * 23:24, 5 September 2017  Sammy D III — chat
 * 23:49, 5 September 2017  Sammy D III — chat
 * 15:29, 6 September 2017  Sammy D III — chat
 * — Harvester pt 2
 * : 19:14, 6 September 2017  Sammy D III — Trucks in the US
 * 19:24, 6 September 2017  Sammy D III — chat
 * 19:43, 6 September 2017  Sammy D III — chat
 * 20:50, 6 September 2017  Sammy D III — chat
 * 00:35, 7 September 2017  Eddaido — chat
 * 01:14, 7 September 2017  Sammy D III — chat
 * 01:28, 7 September 2017  Eddaido — chat
 * 15:24, 7 September 2017  Sammy D III — this is Wikiproject trucks and nobody seems to care about our discussion
 * 21:03, 7 September 2017  Sammy D III — chat
 * 00:35, 8 September 2017  Eddaido — new topic on Commons Categories for Discussion
 * 19:07, 8 September 2017  Sammy D III — chat
 * 08:58, 9 September 2017  Eddaido — chat
 * — Are International Harvester trucks branded "International"?
 * 19 September 2017  Sammy D III  — A summary of discusson on Commons Categories for Discussion
 * 14:17, 19 September 2017  Sammy D III  — A summary of discusson on Commons Categories for Discussion
 * 18:35, 20 September 2017  Sammy D III  — ditto
 * 14:17, 19 September 2017  Sammy D III  — A summary of discusson on Commons Categories for Discussion
 * 18:35, 20 September 2017  Sammy D III  — ditto


 * 23:38, 20 September 2017  Eddaido — Practice in Australia
 * 23:42, 20 September 2017  Eddaido — ditto
 * 17:46, 22 September 2017  Mr.choppers  — noted use of series in the body of an advertisement
 * 17:47, 22 September 2017  Mr.choppers  — Let's focus this discussion
 * 17:47, 22 September 2017  Mr.choppers  — ditto
 * 17:49, 22 September 2017  Mr.choppers  — Practice in Australia
 * 18:41, 22 September 2017  Sammy D III  — Agrees with Mr.choppers
 * 08:09, 24 September 2017  SteveCof00 — Summary by SteveCof00 and note of use of name (no Harvester)
 * 12:14, 24 September 2017  Sammy D III  — IH logo is a logo. If International Harvester is used it should be followed by "Company"
 * — Requested move 25 September 2017
 * 00:00, 25 September 2017  Sammy D III  — details of requested move
 * 03:04, 25 September 2017  Wbm1058 — move refactored for technical reasons
 * 11:43, 25 September 2017  Wbm1058 — explanation
 * 12:58, 25 September 2017  Wbm1058 — explanation
 * — Survey
 * : 15:55, 25 September 2017  Sammy D III  — Support
 * 22:45, 25 September 2017  MfortyoneA — Oppose but see immediately below
 * 22:46, 25 September 2017  MfortyoneA — ditto
 * 00:46, 26 September 2017  Sammy D III  — response to MfortyoneA who seems to have misunderstood the topic under discussion
 * 11:53, 26 September 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 12:11, 26 September 2017  Steve Lux, Jr — Oppose - its a legal name.
 * 12:36, 26 September 2017  Kierant — Support
 * 13:05, 26 September 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 13:13, 26 September 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 14:09, 26 September 2017  Mr.choppers  — Support
 * 14:12, 26 September 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 19:47, 26 September 2017  Wbm1058 —
 * 17:25, 28 September 2017  Sammy D III  — Its about the name of the trucks
 * 17:43, 28 September 2017  Steve Lux, Jr — the brand is "International Harvester" why is this such an issue?
 * 18:38, 28 September 2017  Steve Lux, Jr —
 * 19:05, 28 September 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 00:48, 29 September 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 02:38, 29 September 2017  Eddaido — Support
 * 15:34, 30 September 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 15:36, 30 September 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 10:14, 2 October 2017  Zawl — Oppose (editor since blocked? See below 19:58 5 October)
 * 10:18, 2 October 2017  Eddaido  — (reponse to Zawl) CommonName is International trucks
 * 10:20, 2 October 2017  Eddaido  —
 * 12:05, 2 October 2017  Sammy D III  — Would Zawl like to review his opinion?
 * 12:22, 2 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 16:36, 2 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 17:14, 3 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 03:10, 4 October 2017  DanTD — because its been Harvester long before the internet existed
 * 07:03, 4 October 2017  Sammy D III  — not so
 * 07:40, 4 October 2017  Sammy D III  — not so
 * 08:36, 4 October 2017  Eddaido  — (for DanTD)Images of ads from 1939 and 1940 without the word Harvester
 * 10:30, 4 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 15:21, 4 October 2017  Sammy D III  — more response to Steve Lux
 * 17:10, 4 October 2017  Steve Lux, Jr — Still opposes
 * 20:33, 4 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 20:45, 4 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 21:44, 4 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 22:28, 4 October 2017  Sammy D III  — response to Steve Lux
 * 12:13, 5 October 2017  Steve Lux, Jr —
 * 19:58, 5 October 2017  Sammy D III  — noted Zawl out of play
 * 20:11, 5 October 2017  SteveCof00  — Oppose: Commonname
 * 20:52, 5 October 2017  Sammy D III  — rebuttal / refutation of SteveCof00
 * 20:58, 5 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 00:03, 6 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 00:27, 7 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 03:20, 7 October 2017  Wbm1058 — This is a Product name not a company name. details sources supporting International Harvester Scout**
 * 10:49, 7 October 2017  Amakuru — Oppose for consistency
 * 11:41, 7 October 2017  Sammy D III  — rebuttal of Amakuru
 * — Sources
 * 12:38, 7 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 13:57, 7 October 2017  Wbm1058 — details sources supporting International Harvester Scout** inconsistent use may have been test
 * 14:48, 7 October 2017  Wbm1058 — truck Blue Book never includes International
 * 15:11, 7 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 15:17, 7 October 2017  Wbm1058 — GM used a badge like IH but its a Buick Regal not a GM Regal
 * 15:19, 7 October 2017  Wbm1058 — GM removed the GM badges for marketing reasons
 * 18:49, 7 October 2017  Wbm1058 — difficult to accommmodate link between bus and truck chassis
 * 18:53, 7 October 2017  Wbm1058 — difficult to accommmodate link between bus and truck chassis
 * 20:37, 7 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 16:30, 8 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 01:55, 9 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 02:41, 10 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 03:09, 10 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 20:37, 7 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 16:30, 8 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 01:55, 9 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 02:41, 10 October 2017  Sammy D III  —
 * 03:09, 10 October 2017  Sammy D III  —

Eddaido (talk) 09:22, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * 12:51, 10 October 2017  Sammy D III  — removed redundant edit references
 * 14:11, 10 October 2017  Sammy D III  — removed a dead link
 * 14:56, 10 October 2017  Wbm1058 — No Harvester in Navistar Internationals
 * 15:40, 10 October 2017  Wbm1058 — Support with reasons and regrets now unable to close the dicussion

Eddaido (talk) 00:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose:
 * Steve Lux, Jr (thought Harvester=common name)
 * MfortyoneA (seems to have misunderstood topic under discussion) sock puppet
 * Zawl now on Self requested block
 * SteveCof00 (thought Harvester=common name)
 * Amakuru (consistency with Company name)


 * Support:
 * Mr.choppers
 * Sammy D III
 * Kierant
 * Eddaido
 * Wbm1058

Eddaido (talk) 01:13, 11 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Nice summary. I'm curious, if the actual name is clear (while originally instinctively opposed, I then looked at some of the original sources from various decades and found that IHC have almost always referred to their trucks as Internationals - the logo is a red herring), then does common name trump it?  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  16:11, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's right to call it a red herring; there was never any intent by the company to mislead its customers. As I mentioned in the discussion section above, I think it turns on whether you think of the logo as a company logo or a brand logo. Note that GM once put their "mark of excellence" badge on their cars. The difference is that you always knew that was the company logo because they also used brand logo badges like bow-ties and three-shields. Here, the question is murkier because there isn't a separate brand badge for iH trucks. On the other hand they rarely spelled out "International Harvester" in their spelled-out brand badges (as opposed to the logos). You just see single-word "International" badges. Now, I'm trying to think of a motor vehicle brand name that is two or more words long. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:26, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I see Rover Company which spun off the brands Land Rover and Range Rover, but that's a case where the brand added a name rather than lost one. wbm1058 (talk) 20:56, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Nobody Actually Cares? Yes, they certainly do
Indeed they do:
 * Hits per day — 2 (average) from 1 July 2015 to 31 August 2017


 * Hits per day
 * 5/9/2017 — 29 Sammy & Eddaido
 * 6/9/2017 — 18 Sammy & Eddaido
 * 7/9/2017 — 37 Sammy & Eddaido
 * 8/9/2017 — 14 Eddaido & Sammy
 * 9/9/2017 — 15 Eddaido & Sammy
 * 10/9/2017 — 7
 * 11/9/2017 — 4
 * 12/9/2017 — 4
 * 13/9/2017 — 3
 * 14/9/2017 — 8
 * 15/9/2017 — 7
 * 16/9/2017 — 3
 * 17/9/2017 — 5
 * 18/9/2017 — 5
 * 19/9/2017 — 36 Sammy
 * 20/9/2017 — 36 Eddaido
 * 21/9/2017 — 13
 * 22/9/2017 — 30 Mr.choppers
 * 23/9/2017 — 29
 * 24/9/2017 — 35
 * 25/9/2017 — 80 Wbm1058 and others
 * 26/9/2017 — 73
 * 27/9/2017 — 13
 * 28/9/2017 — 34
 * 29/9/2017 — 30
 * 30/9/2017 — 20


 * 1/10/2017 — 15
 * 2/10/2017 — 49
 * 3/10/2017 — 23
 * 4/10/2017 — 7
 * 5/10/2017 — 44
 * 6/10/2017 — 76 Sammy D III
 * 7/10/2017 — 123 Wbm1058, Sammy D III
 * 8/10/2017 — 34
 * 9/10/2017 — 53
 * 10/10/2017 — 81 Sammy D III & Eddaido
 * 11/10/2017 — 40
 * 12/10/2017 — 12
 * 13/10/2017 — 21
 * 14/10/2017 — 14
 * 15/10/2017 — 17
 * 16/10/2017 — 9
 * 17/10/2017 — 7
 * 18/10/2017 — 14
 * 19/10/2017 — 45
 * 20/10/2017 — 39
 * 21/10/2017 — 48 Wbm1058, Sammy D III, Andrewa, Mr.choppers
 * 22/10/2017 — 20
 * 23/10/2017 — 23
 * 24/10/2017 —

Eddaido (talk) 06:59, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Let us prepare a new RM
I again suggest a fresh RM as proposed at Move review/Log/2017 October. See also and other discussion above of course.

And I suggest...
 * Restrict it to a few closely-related articles... say at least three but five at most.
 * Relate the rationale clearly to the article title policy, in particular the nutshell summary Article titles should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent.
 * Use primary sources only if absolutely necessary for the case, and clearly distinguish them from reliable secondary sources.
 * Refrain strictly from personal attacks. This policy is being generally ignored in recent times I know, but ignoring it doesn't ever help to produce consensus in my experience.
 * In particular, let the past go. Misunderstandings happen. Consensus can change. We move forward.

Just my suggestions. Comments? Andrewa (talk) 20:28, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * An excellent idea.Eddaido (talk) 09:40, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Candidates
What are the best (three to five I suggest above) articles to start on? Andrewa (talk) 20:11, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Except the last two they are all, I think, much the same. Why not pick the first three? Eddaido (talk) 09:40, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I vote the International Scout. See Jalopnik and countless books.  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  14:19, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I think "Scout" is excellent. (EDIT: maybe a problem, some around 1980ish were advertised as IH). It might also hook up with Travelall and PUs somehow. Most 1960-1980 HD trucks also put names over their numbers, Loadstar, Fleetstar, Transtar, etc. Anything with a name would not have recognition problems, correct? Sammy D III (talk) 15:43, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * If Scouts were occasionally advertised as IHs, so much the better. Seeking problems is better than trying to evade them. This way the title will be more stable.  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  05:46, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
 * From now I will try to do only information when I think it is wanted. For either position. No more butting in.
 * These ads (Popular Science Sep 1979 Ski Mar 1979 and Popular Science Jun 1978) that wbm1058 found show "International Harvester Scout® " Dealer". Referring to the dealer as IH, or the vehicle as IH Scout® (could go either way)? wbm 1058 thought it may have been a marketing thing. Wisconson Hist Museum shows 1978 "International® Scout® 800A".
 * I have not seen inside International Harvester Scout: The Complete Illustrated History (brand new book). The cover implies "International Harvester Scout", but Foster (2015) implied "International Harvester Trucks". Banks (2017) could be a published source for "Harvester".
 * I can also do "logos" should irrelevant trivia become important. Sammy D III (talk) 16:24, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking you would avoid the models where any contrary company adverts were found, and save those for a later round. My suggestion was to put up International Harvester S-Series first. There was a two or three year period 1986–88 after the corporate name change and before the introduction of the second generation Navistar International 4000- and 8000-Series where it would be flat-out wrong to call the trucks produced by Navistar International "International Harvester S-Series" – perhaps you could say "the 1987 Navistar International S-Series", but Wikipedia never does that, that I've seen. If "1987 International S-Series" is a sufficiently recognizable name for a truck built by Navistar, then why wouldn't "1985 International S-Series" be a sufficiently recognizable name for a truck produced by International Harvester? I've asked that question multiple times, and as yet no one has even attempted to state their rationale for that. You could include any other models whose production overlapped the 1986 corporate name change. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:56, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I would include the related International Harvester S-Series (bus chassis). So there's two to move together. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:19, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Note that this title is International Paystar, not International Harvester Paystar, even though the PayStar was introduced by International Harvester in January 1972. That one was moved without drama back in June 2009. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:27, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Rationale
Let us try to put together a clear and valid and uncluttered rationale. Andrewa (talk) 20:11, 1 November 2017 (UTC)


 * The real problem here is that the company name is more distinct than the brand name. This has resulted in there being some basis for the WP:COMMONNAME argument, but redirects help with that.  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  14:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * (feel free to move this elsewhere) The company International Harvester marketed trucks under the International name. There has been any number of period brochures presented in support, across the decades and from different countries. Frederick W. Crismon's seminal work is titled "International Trucks." While Eddaido and Sammy D III claim that calling them "International Harvester" is unique to Wikipedia, there are a lot of others that do to, though. At least one of these titles includes "Harvester" as the model name, but the majority do not. Also see the titles listed here.


 * The fact is, "International" all by itself is a bit vague. "International Harvester trucks" makes it clear what we are talking about, whereas "International trucks" lends itself to misinterpretation. This is a reason to keep the longer name, and also explains why some sources use the longer name. BUT it is incorrect and thus inconsistent with our naming policies. The logo is completely irrelevant. Mitsubishi used an MMC (Mitsubishi Motors Corporation) logo for years but it doesn't mean that their vehicles go by the entire name.


 * Now I know that people don't seem to concerned with finding out the actual situation (WP:NOTTRUTH), but when things are fuzzy then I think that reality can provide a guiding light in how to approach sources. As a thought experiment, pretend that the article was titled International Scout and you wanted it renamed to "International Harvester Scout." What would you do, and what supporting evidence is there? I was originally in the IH faction but changed my mind after looking at the material.  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  14:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Some word about sources only:
 * This is a talk page, not an article. If "I say so" is an argument then shouldn't thousands hundreds of manufacturer's documents also be? Will people specifically not check sources because they are primary?
 * The seven published books sources are stretching it, I would consider them as five. Plus IH shop manuals, how many separate sources are they? (I would think one per publisher.) I just couldn't find much.
 * (EDIT) One of the (few?) recent books is International Harvester Trucks, The Complete History (Foster 2015)(scroll down). This history of the company uses "International Harvester", "International", "IH", "Navistar", and "the company" as names for the company. All trucks after the "Auto Wagon" are "International" or model only. Page 172 (about the Navistar name change): "The vehicles themselves would be known as International trucks, as always".
 * How important are links? Eddiado has a zillion. He has drained the Australian archives and newspapers. Many link to individual documents. Australia is not the US but they are very big-time. Can you hook different markets together? Heads up, I have come across two that picked "International" out of "International Harvester", but in context they were talking about the company.
 * How important are searches? I only did a couple Google ones but others have done some N-search thing. And of course there are Eddiado's zillion.
 * The number of sources is huge. Some even address the (in my opinion) irrelevant trivia of hood ornaments. Sammy D III (talk) 15:19, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It's better to count the sources rather than the sources' writings. International Harvester, the company, is one source, Today's Trucking would be another source, Transportation (journal) another, Truckin' Magazine, Businessweek, etc. You could also count different authors as different sources. Checking sources over time, to see if they were consistent in their usage, is also helpful. But to show 50 marketing or service items produced by the company in the same year would be rather redundant. To avoid the risk of drawing conclusions based on cherry-picked sources, the Google Ngram Viewer (the N-search thing) is helpful because it is a computerized aggregation of all sources which have been scanned by Google, so can helpful in showing which name(s) are the most commonly used throughout a wide variety of sources. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:55, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Summary
Andrewa enjoins us to consider Article titles and to recognise that Article titles should be: Eddaido (talk) 03:47, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
 * recognizable an International truck is the name used by those familiar with the subject. Despite some unsupported claims adding Harvester is a recent fudging.
 * concise removing Harvester must make the name more concise
 * natural International truck is the natural name used in all its main markets. I suspect few if any were ever sold in Europe where unfamiliarity might now encourage the use of the extra word
 * precise — what else among trucks might be an "international truck" and so might be confused with this brand name?
 * consistent Harvester is not used throughout International Harvester's truck range, nor is Motor in Ford trucks
 * Is "the name used by those familiar with the subject" a good idea (or WP link)? I thought that a major problem was that people who are familiar with the subject couldn't take a wider view. Would the average reader be looking for IH history or the name on the grille? (Who is the average reader?)
 * The mistake in HDs is from the very start, they were made as IH. I tried to get the first editor, but he doesn't come around very often anymore.
 * International trucks could be a truck show from around the world. You probably have the most "international trucks" on the planet, looks like you have bought everything. And number only models could be anything. I think that is real thing. Sammy D III (talk) 14:11, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I think of an "international truck", in a generic sense, as for example, a truck shipping manufactured goods from Monterrey, Mexico to San Antonio, Texas. That would be international shipping, a redirect to freight transport. Yet International truck has been a stable redirect to Navistar International since 2005, and as yet nobody has felt the need to place a hatnote to freight transport at the top of the Navistar International article. There are just two links to International truck, and both of them are hitting the intended target. So the idea that people might be confused about the meaning of the term seems dubious at best. It's likely that where the term is used, the meaning will be made clear by the context in which it's used. Making International a capitalized proper noun should generally be a sufficient hint that international shipping by truck is not the meaning. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:29, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * International trucking is a red link. wbm1058 (talk) 14:33, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * We are also not trying to make an article called "International trucks," rather we are naming specific articles such as International S-series or whathaveyou. "International trucks" might become an issue in Commons but that is a separate conversation.  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  19:13, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Past moves

 * 00:07, 18 July 2015‎ VanishedUser sdu8asdasd moved page International Harvester C-Series Trucks to International Harvester C-Series: move to more standard location
 * 02:38, 11 July 2008‎ moved Travelall to International Harvester Travelall: Manufacturer's name should not be left out of the title.
 * 02:37, 11 July 2008‎ moved L-Series to International Harvester L-Series: Manufacturer's name should not be left out of the title.
 * So if one argument is that "International" is not sufficiently unambiguous to be a primary topic name for IH trucks, that begs the question of how the primary topic for L-series is temporary Chinese trains !
 * Chinese trains also primary topic for Z-series – see Z Series (disambiguation) for car models that are secondary in importance to the trains. I disagree with that.

I'll add more past moves as I find them. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:49, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * 15:42, 25 June 2009 moved page International Harvester Paystar to International Paystar (International Harvester no longer exists as a company. The PayStar is produced by Navistar and sold under their truck brand, International. The article does mention that the truck was designed by International Harvester in the 1970's, this should suffice)
 * Great drama-free move from eight years ago! wbm1058 (talk) 16:31, 11 November 2017 (UTC)


 * 15:39, 1 June 2014‎ moved page Newport Series COE to International Newport series: fuller name
 * Yes, it's a longer name, but not as long as International Harvester Newport series (nobody has noticed that's a red link and created that redirect). Newport Series is a series of cabover trucks that were produced by International Harvester and its corporate successor Navistar. Introduced in 1981 as the replacement for the Transtar II COE. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:44, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Article merge
I've listed these four articles Panel van, Panel van (Australia), Panel truck and Sedan delivery for a possible merge with the discussion taking place here for any interested editors. Shinerunner (talk) 20:27, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Draft TravelCenters of America article for review
Hello! I am not sure how active this WikiProject is lately (given the "semi-active" tag), but I'm seeking one or more editors to review an expanded and improved article for TravelCenters of America (TA), which I am submitting on behalf of the company. There are several issues with the existing article, which I've outlined in more detail on the article's talk page. For those who may not be familiar, TA is the largest operator of truck stops and travel centers in the United States.

I'm curious, are any WikiProject Trucks participants willing to come take a look at the expanded and updated "History" section I've proposed here? Thanks in advance for any help. Inkian Jason (talk) 21:48, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * This edit request has been answered. Inkian Jason (talk) 16:35, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

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