Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Waterways/Archive 1

Templates
We need better project- and uesr- templates - please feel free to improve the very basic ones I've set up as a starter. Andy Mabbett 19:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Image:Below Pontcysyllte.jpg
 * I thought this image of the Pontcysyllte aquaduct and the river underneath was quite good. Simply south 19:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed. I've made and applied a thumbnail silhouette; I'm not sure that it's really obvious what it is, at that size, but it's better than nothing, for now! Thank you. Andy Mabbett 19:57, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I recognized Pontcysyllte from the silhouette, I believe it is appropriate. Martin Cordon 20:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * the image isn't under a free lisence and has been listed for deletion.Geni 22:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * User:Geni has, er, kindly removed the image from the templates (to avoid it showing as a redlink once deleted). These templates look rather dull without an image, so I have trawled Commons to find this one of Semington Bridge on the K&A, and applied it to all.


 * There were some others I considered: a narrowboat on the K&A, and one of the Caen Hill flight pictures, for example. However, I felt that this picture was the clearest available showing a recognisably iconic feature of UK canals – it's no surprise that BWB use a bridge for their logo too!  While the aqueduct was good for project members, it was not very recognisable to non-canal folk.


 * EdJogg 01:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Non-existent articles and articles in trouble
We need the means to identify articles in need of repair, uncited articles, stubs, articles without images etc. We need to identify subjects, canals, canal tunnels and aqueducts which are deserving of an article but do not yet have one. I have concentrated on canals and infrastructure in my area but I am willing to branch out where needed. It would be useful to know what an article needs to contain for it to cease to be a stub. Martin Cordon 20:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've added two new sections. These can be hived off to separate pages when there is sufficient content. Andy Mabbett 21:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Coverage
Would this also include lakes and reservoirs e.d. Rutland Water, Windermere etc? Does it include watersports? Simply south 21:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would suggest that we cover canal-feeder reservoirs, but not otherwise. I would exclude most water-sports, unless they're specific to navigable waterways (Severn Bore surfing, perhaps?) Andy Mabbett 21:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Just getting the articles relating to canals, river navigations and their associated infrastructure in order is a mountain of work. Natural lakes, hydro-electric reservoirs and potable water storage reservoirs should I think wait until the main body of work is done. Although if an editor is enthusiastic about this aspect then feel free. Watersports belong elsewhere, I think. Martin Cordon 21:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Rutland Water is an artificial lake but then again it may be a resrvoir. Simply south 22:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Rutland Water is a potable water reservoir not built to provide water for canals or river navigations. It is used by sailing boats and pleasure craft but it is not part of the waterways system. It isn't used by boats to get from one geographical location to another. Loch Ness fits your grey area much better because it is a natural lake and a link between parts of the Caledonian Canal. Martin Cordon 22:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Lakes & reservoirs come under WikiProject Lakes. While I'm here what about canal which are no longer navigable eg Somerset Coal Canal?&mdash; Rod talk 15:46, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Former canals (drained or not), abandoned works or proposals, and future plans, are all clearly inside the scope of this project. As are canal reservoirs - there's no reason why something can't come under multiple projects! Andy Mabbett 15:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC),

A "How to..." guide?
On the Uk Geography Project Talk Page I suggested an updating and/or expansion of the various "How to" guides. One of the ones I suggested was a "How to write about UK Watercourses", since the current "rivers guideline" is biased in favour of USA rivers. Now, given that there was a comment suggesting that Rivers and Artificial Watercourses be treated differently, is there anyone who feels able and/or willing to start off such a guide? Let's say just canals for now. Any offers? I'm not experienced enough to attempt it, but I could assist given a basis of a preliminary version already started. DDStretch   (talk)  15:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

There is certainly some merit to this (i couldn't find your item on Uk Geography Project Talk Page). As a relative newcomer I must admit that some formal guidance would be useful. In general I find it very difficult to find the right help pages in WP. I don't think it is something that just one person is likely to do, and it is likely to be an ongoing project. It could be a document against which the quality of articles could be measured. Derek Andrews 13:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * My comment (its only brief) can be found in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography. Looking back, it and the following brief discussion doesn't really say much.  DDStretch    (talk)  13:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Technical Articles
Do we need separate articles for each technical term or a single canal terminology page on which we can write short definitions concerning any unusual canal term? Martin Cordon 22:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Treat each case on its merits - perhaps a "List of UK waterways terminology" page, with short notes, or links to longer pages ("lock" being an example of the latter) - but remember that, as they say, "Wikipedia is not a dictionary". Andy Mabbett 22:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That's pretty much exactly what I would have said. 'Separate term articles' are quickly targetted for moving to Wiktionary (where they may have just as difficult a ride!) Having said that, towpath and tributary have slipped through the net (picking terms from the intro to Waterways in the United Kingdom).


 * I was trying to work out where winding hole should go. It's not obvious from the current raft of articles, and Canal seems most unsatisfactory as an article... What we actually need is an article describing Design features of UK canals, or Canal infrastructure which describes what a canal is, why it is a particular shape, what governs route selection, the need for puddling, the purpose of locks, by-weirs, winding holes, etc. The article could 'list' definitions in prose, with pictures and diagrams, without risking being labelled as a dictionary article.


 * EdJogg 23:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * probably best to start with a centeralised list and spin off anything that gets too long.Geni 23:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I was just looking at Walsall Canal and it says is a narrow (7 foot) canal. Anyone coming to this article without a background in canals might get the wrong idea, i.e. this is the channel width. Is there a better way to describe this, or an article it can link to? Derek Andrews 13:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Project Scope??
Having just seen that the stub article puddling (engineering) exists, would it be appropriate for such a canal engineering-type article to be labelled with the UKW template, even though it is a non-UK-specific topic?

EdJogg 23:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * going by the existance of such a tag on Talk:Canal inclined plane yes.Geni 23:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Stub template
Apparently: UK-waterway-stub has been nominated for deletion at Stub types for deletion. The stub type, which was not proposed at WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals, does not meet the standard requirements for a stub type, either through being incorrectly named, ambiguously scoped, or through failure to meet standards relating to the current stub hierarchy or likely size, as explained at Wikipedia:Stub. Please feel free to make any comments at WP:SFD regarding this stub type.

Andy Mabbett 07:59, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You've been around WP long enough to realise that if you don't 'play by the rules', people get narked. In this case you have two problems: (i) you did not follow the procedure for new stub-types at WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals (ii) you have not identified enough stubs to meet the criteria yet (60 for a general stub, 30 for a project stub -- currently we have 20).
 * I have replied at the stubfd page, supporting you as best I can, but we really need to go through the proper creation procedure and be all 'above board' about it. This may mean we have to wait for a week or two, during which time more stub articles can be identified.


 * (Sorry that was very 'direct' of me. It is supposed to be a friendly tone. I'm trying to be helpful!)


 * EdJogg 09:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * As I've commented, the procedure isn't very well advertised. Andy Mabbett 10:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I was already vaguely aware of the need (don't know why), which is why I thought we were in for trouble the moment I saw the stub appear!


 * User:Grutness's proposal there of employing a 'talk page grading system' would seem very sensible. No idea how to do it, but it is widely used on the various railway projects, so should be easy to implement by imitation.


 * My suggestion for a UK-canal-stub, included under the above discussion, has the potential for becoming reality, and will relieve the bloated Category:Water transport stubs of many stubs, which will be of benefit to everyone.


 * In the meantime, how about a project sub-page identifying stub articles? That will provide the necessary ammunition for a stub-type request.


 * EdJogg 11:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * There has been a formal looking at the issue of such a stub see this
 * The talk page grading system works well on WikiProject Bristol (see current status & to do sections) with articles being rated on the WikiProject Council/Assessment FAQ & also being marked for whether the have/need photos info boxes etc (but this project may want to use other features). The deatils are on Template:Bristol & talk page - the code was put together by User:Gasheadsteve & he may be able to help with any adaptations.&mdash; Rod talk 19:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I have finally closed the SFD discussion. After charting out peoples' votes on paper, it's pretty clear: rename/rescope the current template to UK-canal-stub and use use talk page templates to track articles for the WikiProject. Hopefully this solution will work for everyone involved. ~ Amalas rawr  =^_^=  16:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Old Turn Junction images
Please use: Image:BCN_OldTurnJunction_1.jpg, Image:BCN_OldTurnJunction_2.jpg as you see fit, Perhaps we need an article about OTJ, given its history? And maybe a new icon for the maps ;-) Andy Mabbett 15:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * A nice historic picture without the glass monstrosity would be good, as well.Pyrotec 16:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Unfortunately, the battery on my Tardis is flat. ;-) Andy Mabbett 16:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The first won't upload; I'll try again later. Andy Mabbett 16:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. Andy Mabbett 18:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

? make route map on the left
Does anyone know how to make the route maps apear on the left of a section? I've added them to Kennet and Avon Canal but they are longer than the text in some sections. If I could make these appear on the left they could be kept relating to the relevant sections of text?&mdash; Rod talk 11:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I've fixed the issues with Kennet and Avon Canal by adding

just before the affected headings – this forces the heading to 'wait for the route map to complete before displaying'.
 * Do not attempt to put the route maps on the left. Quite apart from introducing a new area for inconsistency, you will find that other things stop working properly: in particular, bulleted/numbered lists lose their bullets/numbers, and you'll probably find that title alignment is no easier.
 * EdJogg 23:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing these & I'll work on text for the white space - however the route maps for Devizes to Newbury & Newbury to Reading disapeared when Pigsonthewing kindly tried to fix this for me by adding, in  this edit. Should I try to reverse this & use

or just add them in again from User:Rodw/Sandbox/kandaschematic?&mdash; Rod talk 07:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Try refreshing/ reloading the page in your browser. Andy Mabbett 11:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No amount of refreshing is going to help, as the Route Map code is no longer present! I suggest you re-add them, in whichever way is quickest for you, and then use 'clear' as you need. The second two maps do not exist as templates yet, at least, not with related names.


 * BTW, if a route map is moved to a template, it would be nice if there were a direct 'edit' button available on the map. One of the 'v.d.e' templates would do the trick. However, I would suggest that templates are only really required where the map will be included on more than one page.


 * (Just noticed that you're using the SINGLE lock gate variant for your K&A route maps (except for Monkey Marsh Lock). I think it looks much clearer, and highlights the various flights much better. It would be useful to mention this page as an example of this presentation in the appropriate place on the route map project talk page.)


 * EdJogg 18:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

River Navigations
We seem to have successfully linked into canals, however river navigations are also part of our scope; and as yet there are no links between the Project and the river navigations. Pyrotec 14:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Nicholson Waterways Guides
I have the first four Nicholson Waterways Guides, and have just listed them on the project page, in a format that's easily cut & pasted. Please drop a note on my talk page if there's anything I can look up for you. Does anyone have numbers 5-7? Andy Mabbett 21:03, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Bistol Harbour GA on hold
Hi, Bristol Harbour (which has a note on it's talk page to say it falls within the remit of this project) has had a GA review which is on hold (for 2-7) days pending some revisions - the feedback is on Talk:Bristol Harbour - would anyone be able to help get this to GA status?&mdash; Rod talk 17:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Gower Branch Canal map
Please can someone double check the map on Gower Branch Canal. Thank you. Andy Mabbett 23:02, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Tunnel template
This: Infobox tunnel may be of use. Andy Mabbett 16:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks suspiciously like a railway tunnel template; so we might wish to produce one for waterways.Pyrotec 21:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template
In case anyone is interested in the mapping templates there are discussions running at (Route diagram being the renamed (moved) Railway line template project). Oosoom Talk to me 17:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Timelines
I've added a basic timeline outlining events on the Manchester, Bolton and Bury Canal page. If anybody has any tips to offer, perhaps a template that would suit it better - could they please let me know, or of course just alter it themselves? Parrot of Doom 21:52, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Manchester and Salford Junction Canal
I've added a gallery of images to this page, so am deleting the request for images on the discussion page of that wiki Parrot of Doom 18:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Payload of a narrowboat? the article on narrowboats is quite useful, but misses one aspect: what is the maximum payload for a typical (original) narrowboat. E.g. how much coal or sand can it carry? --84.194.112.163 19:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Export points of interest as KML; see them on Google Maps
Pages marked with coord can be exported as KML (for use in Google Earth, for example) via Brian Suda's site, in this format:


 * http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/geo/get-geo.php?type=kml&uri=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherton_Tunnel_Branch_Canal

The same URL can be pasted into Google Maps as a search, and will show the locations, as push-pins on a map

I've requested a template which will generate such links, for any page on which it appears.

I'm chuffed! Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 09:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The template kml was created - and promptly nominated for deletion. I'm dischuffed!" Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 22:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Is this the place to join the project
I added details to the Neath and Tennant Canal page and created pages for the Aberdare Canal and Kidwelly & Llanelli Canal, without finding out that there was a waterways project. Sorry if that trod on anybody's toes. Do I join here? Bob1960evens 22:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, yes and no. Not on this talk page but you can under WikiProject UK Waterways. Simply south 22:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Hacked page
I'm reporting this page, it's hacked on the first thumbnail image and the image itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkirk_Wheel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.5.216 (talk) 10:59, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thanks for pointing this out. --Old Moonraker 12:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)