Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States presidential elections/Archive 1

WikiProject United States presidential elections/A-class review
A new feature of the wikiproject is the A-class review, please read about it here and review the current nominations.-- S    TX   22:27, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Status of "controversies" pages
There is ongoing discussion across all of Wikipedia about whether political figures should have separate "controversies" or "criticisms" subarticles or main article sections. At the risk of oversimplification, proponents say such material satisfies a reader need, while opponents say such material violates WP:NPOV, WP:Content forking, and WP:Criticism. Although sometimes hotly debated, consensus decisions have been reached in several cases to dismantle such articles or sections, and disburse and integrate legitimate material within them into appropriate contexts within the normal biographical sections of the main and subarticles for that political figure.

Of the 16 Democratic and Republican candidates still running for president as of December 2007, the status in this regard is:
 * Never had such articles/sections: Edwards, Kucinich, Gravel, Romney
 * Had them, but have since been dismantled/disbursed/integrated: Obama, Clinton, Richardson, Biden, Paul, Giuliani, McCain, Hunter, F. Thompson, Dodd, Governorship of Mitt Romney‎
 * Still have them: Dodd (Chris_Dodd), Governorship of Mitt Romney‎ (Governorship of Mitt Romney‎),  F. Thompson (Fred Thompson controversies), Huckabee (Mike_Huckabee) , Tancredo (Tom_Tancredo)
 * Could you provide links to these pages, I am having trouble finding them.-- S    TX   20:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)  Done.  Wasted Time R (talk) 01:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Where is the discussion?-- S    TX   20:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC) The Biden, McCain, and Hunter dismantlings were done without any reaction. The Richardson one had a little; I think a lot had already been done before I looked at it. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_2
 * Talk:Hillary_Rodham_Clinton_controversies ff.
 * Talk:List of Hillary Rodham Clinton Controversies
 * Articles for deletion/Fred Thompson controversies
 * Talk:Fred_Thompson_controversies
 * Articles for deletion/Ron Paul controversies
 * Talk:Controversies_of_Rudy_Giuliani ff.
 * Articles for deletion/Controversies of Rudy Giuliani
 * Articles for deletion/Al Gore controversies (not a 2008 candidate but discussion went on in parallel)

Actually the Governorship of Mitt Romney has such a section, and in my view, is appropriately a part of that article, and I think controversies related to a particular office go well with an article on a particular office. Perhaps the above listing by Wasted Time R, ' on "never had section/article" should be re-reviewed for only "separate page" instances. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 15:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I saw that once but forgot about it when I did my summary. Yes, material about controversies in a particular office go well in the article about holding that office, but I still think they can be better integrated than lumping them into a "Controversies" section.  In this case, the bit about the budget surplus belongs in the Fiscal policy section, the bit about the landscapers belongs in the Illegal immigration section, the bit about tar baby belongs as a footnote in the Big Dig section, and the bit about Khatami visit could go in the Education section perhaps.  Wasted Time R (talk) 16:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, a sensible means for taking that section apart. I'll amend the listing above for accuracy. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 19:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Update - Fred Thompson controversies has now been dismantled/disbursed/integrated. See Talk:Fred_Thompson_controversies — everyone was in agreement. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Another update - Chris Dodd is gone too, courtesy of another editor. Wasted Time R (talk) 19:10, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

And another — Governorship of Mitt Romney‎ is now merged into context in the right parts of that article, more or less along the lines that I outlined above. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:51, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's an Obama controversy article, in case anyone wishes to merge into another article. It was created on November 21 of last year.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * There's nothing wrong with having an article on a specific controversial event, if the event topic is too big to contain within another article. Thus, 1996 United States campaign finance controversy, White House FBI files controversy, Whitewater (controversy), Watergate scandal, etc.  The problem was with articles that were collection points of all controversial aspects of a subject, without regard for proper biographical or historical context.  Despite this article's vague title (due to a tortured history of renamings), it's actually about one specific topic (the moronic 'Obama is a secret Muslim' rumor), and thus is okay on these grounds.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds reasonable. The reason I brought this up is because the Obama article was mentioned here, by an editor who suggested renaming the current article Mitt_Romney's "Faith in America" speech to more broadly cover Controversy regarding Mitt Romney's Mormonism.  What do you think about such a renaming?  Personally, I would prefer simply Mitt Romney and Religion.


 * I know you're probably cringing at the thought of getting even slightly and tangentially involved with the Mitt Romney article. However, I would like to mention that when good, responsible editors such as yourself completely abandon the field, it leaves the field completely to less responsible elements.  There's currently an RFC going on at the Mitt Romney article, by the way.Ferrylodge (talk) 21:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Adding Delegate Endorsement pages
I am trying to locate information on "superdelegate" endorsements for both the Republican & Democratic Nominations and I can't find it. The Congressional Endorsement pages are a good start but it only covers a small subset. Is the information out there? Do other people think it is worth two more pages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.233.99.136 (talk) 19:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality of Romney article
Just wanted to bring to folks' attention that there is a huge ongoing neutrality discussion at the Mitt Romney article, regarding the polygamy of his four paternal great-grandparents.Ferrylodge (talk) 02:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd rather beat my head into this keyboard than get in the middle of that :-) Wasted Time R (talk) 03:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sure if you got involved, it would not be the middle. It would be the end.  :-)


 * Seriously, there's a big problem there, IMHO.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I go back to when George Romney and Mo Udall ran for prez. Nobody paid much attention to their being Mormons.  Life was good.  I wrote almost all of the current Ann Romney article.  That's my contribution to Romneypedia for now.  Wasted Time R (talk) 03:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Mo Udall once attended a caucus meeting on Capitol Hill. Upon leaving, he announced the difference between a cactus and a caucus.  Udall would have loved Wikipedia talk pages.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

FYI, this controversy was finally settled yesterday, though it could flare up again. The article is now unfrozen, after ten days' of protection.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

2008 presidential election template
Another high-visibility thing related to this project that's been under constant editorial debate and frequent changes over the past year is Template:United States presidential election, 2008, which is included into all the articles and which lists out all the candidates running currently and those who were running but have withdrawn. Friction over how serious or major a candidate has to be to gain inclusion, definition of "were running", deep research into FEC processes, etc. See Template talk:United States presidential election, 2008 for the full story. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Section heading question
User:Rtr10 is changing candidate main article section titles that used to say "2008 presidential [election] campaign" to say "Campaign for United States President, 2008 election", with the edit comment "change in section title to align with other candidates pages and remove bias tones". The new form seems a little clunky to me. Also, I'm not sure there is any current standard in this section title (or any other) to align to. Finally, I'm mystified by what "bias tones" were in the old form. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Most pages had separate titles and in my opinion some were trying to spin a campaign up and some were trying to spin another campaign down. I thought it would be more beneficial to the Project to apply the same Section Title to every candidate to remove any possible bias. Do you not find that acceptable? I did not see any problems with it. Rtr10 (talk) 00:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Candidate Infoboxes
I have went through today and applied the same Candidate Info Box to every Presidential Campaign Wikipedia article. Any articles that had logos in the Infobox were moved into the article in the articles respective "Campaign Developments" section and pictures of the candidates were placed in the Infobox. Rtr10 (talk) 00:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC) Any other suggestions for these?

Campaign article infobox image
What image should go into the infobox in the campaign articles? Possibilities are: campaign logo, campaign photo of candidate, non-campaign photo of candidate (such as current or past senator or governor photo). Currently most of the campaign articles have the same non-campaign photo as the main article (Hillary Rodham Clinton presidential campaign, 2008, John McCain presidential campaign, 2008, Rudy Giuliani presidential campaign, 2008, Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, etc.), which strikes me as repetitive and unimaginative and ill-considered (an old photo intended for senate use does not necessarily correspond to a presidential campaign).

I would like to see the campaign logo in the infobox; political campaigns are somewhat similar to businesses or to sports teams, and we use logos in the infobox for both of those. It also provides variety compared to the main article. Photos taken on the campaign trail can then appear later in the article. As it happens, some of the campaign articles did use logos in the infoboxes, until User:Rtr10 began changing them today for an attempt at uniformity. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Just want to make it clear that the Campaign Logos were still kept on the respective pages, just moved outside the Info Box. (most of them are in the first section of the article and are still very visible) Rtr10 (talk) 00:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I favor an image of the candidate (whether new or old) over an image of the campaign's logo because it shows the reader who the article is about. A logo really doesn't add anything of any encyclopedic value to the article especially in the lead where an image of the candidate is more appropriate.-- S    TX   02:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I Agree with STX, I think the picture is much more appropriate. The page still centers around the candidate. With the examples you used (corporations and sports teams) both of those do not center around one person. There is very little on every page about the campaign staff or political strategies, almost everything is on the candidate. I do think we should aim toward trying to use official Gubernatorial, Senate or Congress photos, if available and only if they are current photos. If there is only one and it is like three years old and the candidate looks differently today, I think we should try and find a current photo. Rtr10 (talk) 00:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree with WTR for the reasons he stated (similar to businesses or to sports teams). Let's have the logos back at the top of the campaign page, or at least not force uniformity on this issue where views apparently differ. Restored at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 --HailFire (talk) 19:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * HailFire, I appreciate your dedication to helping with Barack Obama's page, however there has been no sort of consensus on this discussion. Currently Candidate Photographs are being used in each candidates Info Box. Please refrain from changing the info box photo until that discussion reaches some type of consensus. This is nothing special to Barack Obama, it is applied to every 2008 presidential campaign page. Some of us have worked very hard on making the entire Presidential Elections project the best it can be. I know you wouldn't want someone going around and screwing up something you put a lot of time in. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation! Rtr10 (talk) 20:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 has been reverted to candidate photo in the Info Box and logo in the article.

Rtr, please point me to where the consensus on which you based these recent changes to four different campaign articles has been documented. Also, seems you might want to pause before setting standards for others with less than 250 edits in your user contributions history. --HailFire (talk) 21:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no need to have that kind of attitude and I can promise you, you will not gain my respect with that. I put in a lot of time on the Info Boxes of every single presidential campaign page, it was not just Obama or Clinton or the ones with logos, it was every single box, on every single page. If you would have cared to look at the topic above this, I posted exactly what I was doing and why I was doing. You went and changed something as if the discussion had been settled knowing good and well it had not. If you want to act like a five year old, that is fine, but I will not engage in that type of bickering with you. You are free to think what ever you want, but unless there is a decision made here, you should not go around and undermine other editors work. Rtr10 (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Rtr, some free advice: when you're new in a place, walkly softly and listen to others more than you speak. The question of what image goes into the infobox hasn't been posed here long enough to have formed consensus.  Also, there are many variations in section structure, contents, balance, etc. across the bodies of the different campaign articles, so it's not like this one difference is going to spoil perfect commonality.  In other words, it's not worth having a cow over.  Wasted Time R (talk) 21:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not the one "having a cow over it". However, when I spend a lot of time working on something and then someone comes in and undermines my work, I am not the kind of person who takes that very lightly. I know the discussion has not been here long enough to form a consensus and that is my point exactly, I thought I had made that clear. Until there is a clear consensus the images should not be changed. Do you find something flawed with that? I will accept what ever consensus forms, but until then the Info Boxes should be left the way they are with the Photographs. Rtr10 (talk) 22:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The point is that the status quo prior to you was, each campaign article can decide for itself whether a photo or a logo goes up top. Since then, there is a 2-2 split on whether there should be logos or photos.  Since there is no consensus, we go back to the old state of each article decides.  Wasted Time R (talk) 22:36, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, because that makes no sense to me, what so ever. I didn't know this was one campaign versus another. I thought Wikipedia was suppose to be one encyclopedic website and that users and editors in this project should be working with each other, not against each other. Am I wrong? I just see your logic to be very flawed. Rtr10 (talk) 22:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Just saw this discussion - I agree with HailFire and Wasted Time R that logos are preferable in the infobox. But more than that, I object to the attempt to force all candidates' articles to be the same. We can have general suggested guidelines, but if the editors of one or another article decide they'd rather go a different route, I don't think they should be prevented from doing so by fiat.  So I think that the status quo was just fine - let the editors decide.  Tvoz | talk 05:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. No standard needed.-- S    TX   22:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Theodore Roosevelt image
I kind of unilaterally picked an image to represent our WikiProject, I am wondering if anybody has another image in mind or if everybody is alright with the current one.-- S    TX   22:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Safely back in time, his political philosophy doesn't easily match to current ideologies, Theodore Roosevelt the article is FA. Seems good to me.  Wasted Time R (talk) 23:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * For the reasons mentioned by Wasted Time R, it might be a good idea to keep the image of TR but remove the images of RFK and McCain.Ferrylodge (talk) 23:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I love Teddy! The image is fine with me and a great image on the topic in my opinion. If anyone would like, I could make a project logo or image or what ever you want to call it. I have no problem doing that, but I have no problems with the current one. Rtr10 (talk) 00:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know?? (Image question)
Are images from candidates on the photo site Flickr fair use? Or are there any Copyright restrictions on them? It isn't real clear to me sense it is a social picture site and I know tons of blogs and other websites use photos of candidates from Flickr. I think we could probably find some really good profile type pictures in there that are actually current and are taken from the campaign trail. Any help on this or other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Rtr10 (talk) 00:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind I found my own answer on the Wikipedia Commons upload page. Rtr10 (talk) 05:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Creation of Bill Richardson presidential campaign, 2008
I am proud to announce that I have created the Bill Richardson presidential campaign, 2008! If you have time, pleas go and give it a look over and if you see a mistake please either correct it or come back here and tell me and I will fix it. Also if you have any information to add on Bill Richardson's campaign, please add it. It is more than a stub, but it is not A-Class yet. I will try to do some more work on it in the next few days. Rtr10 (talk) 05:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I've done some work on this. It still needs material covering the second half of 2007.  Wasted Time R (talk) 17:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Pictures from Oprah/Obama rally in Des Moines
I just uploaded some photographs that my wife took at the recient campaign rally with Oprah and Obama in Des Moines on saturday, Dec 8. Just figured that I'd let folks here in this wikiproject know, in case any such images are needed. --Ramsey2006 (talk) 06:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I've included the last one of Obama in Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, it's a great 'end shot' of the campaign trail.  I'll include one of the Oprah ones too once I do some cropping and exposure work on it.  Wasted Time R (talk) 18:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I couldn't see how to get an edited version back in under your license, so I just used one of the Oprah ones as is. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not really experienced in uploading photos. I just picked one of the standard licenses, without reading the details. Do some of them not allow for making alterations? I'm not sure how to change the license after the fact. I could upload it again under a different license if it would be more convenient --Ramsey2006 (talk) 04:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Please peer review and improve a list
Hello, I created List of United States presidential elections by popular vote margin and I was wanted it peer reviewed. First, I wanted to know if this is a worthwhile list, if not then I can speedy it. Second, it has no intro or any other paragraphs explaining the list and I was hoping someone with writing skills could expand on that. Any feedback is appreciated. Regards.--Old Hoss (talk) 17:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice job on the list Old Hoss! I thought it looked good. I wrote a brief introduction to the national popular vote and the difference in between it and the electoral college since that had not been stated and how the national popular vote is calculated since we do not hold a national election. Rtr10 (talk) 18:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Alan Keyes campaign article?
Alan Keyes presidential campaign, 2008 is on the to-do list. I would say, don't do it. He has been a legitimate second-tier candidate in the past, but this time around he's just engaging in a minor vanity exercise, his puzzling inclusion in today's Des Moines debate notwithstanding. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I will remove it.-- S    TX   22:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Campaign infobox?
Following up on WTR's thought that campaigns are similar to businesses or sports teams, here's something I put together with code copied from Template:Infobox Company:



Needs a lot more work, but I wanted to see what folks here think of this as an alternative to Template:Infobox Candidate. --HailFire (talk) 23:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't say that I find any value in displaying the logo of a campaign. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 02:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I must say HailFire, I was not in agreement with putting the logo in the candidate info box, but with that new Campaign info box it makes a lot more sense and I would definitely be willing to help out in improving that format and trying to get more campaign information on the campaign pages. That is what they are afterall. I think that is a great idea and I'm on board! Rtr10 (talk) 03:07, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think the new box has potential also. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:08, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * So what categories should be included? I would suggest Campaign(or maybe Election might be the better term), Candidate, Political Party, Headquarters, Campaign Manager, Other Key Staff, Money Raised, Money Spent, Cash on Hand, Slogan, Website only changes to what is up already are Campaign Manager and the three main Financial figures for campaigns (raised, spent, and cash on hand). Does anyone else know anything else that should be included? Rtr10 (talk) 05:06, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I just used the infobox in the article George Romney presidential campaign, 1968. I think it looks good but I still think that all articles shouldn't have to conform to this infobox. It should be a choice of the editors of that particular page.-- S    TX   05:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Trying this. --HailFire (talk) 16:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I've applied this new template at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. It has includes a template-defined link referencing a campaign's quarterly filings with the FEC, which may help to ensure that campaign articles using the template report identically sourced and formatted official statistics. What do editors here think about replacing the earlier Wikipedia:WikiProject United States presidential elections/Template:Infobox Campaign template with this one? I noticed there are a number of campaign pages using that experimental one, so wanted to check here first. --HailFire (talk) 22:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Fyi. --HailFire (talk) 23:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

United States presidential election, 1804
I am not familiar with the templates used in these articles, but I'm reasonably sure that the one used in United States presidential election, 1804 is fouled up. In my Firefox browser it is overlain by the table of results. It seems that the infobox template is much larger than in other articles. Can someone fix this please? Thanks! Sheep81 (talk) 07:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * For some reason editors think it is encyclopedic to put two large images of the candidates in the lead. This is the root of the problem.-- S    TX   22:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Opinion polling for the United States presidential election, 2008‎
Some editors, including some involved in this wikiproject want to delete all the polling articles. The AFD is located here. -- S    TX   02:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

xxx presidential campaign, xxxx
Tom Tancredo presidential campaign, 2008 is now a GA article. I nominated it because Tancredo dropped out and the article was complete in its coverage. After a candidate drops out we should fix up and complete their article and then nominate it for GA status. Hopefully we can get all of the xxx presidential campaign, 2008 articles to GA and then possibly FA status.-- S    TX   04:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)