Wikipedia talk:WikiProject User Page Help/Archive 1

A better suggestion
Instead of all this wasted effort on prettifying user pages, why don't you instead help other people edit the encyclopedia? Surely we need good looking articles far more than we need good looking user pages.

Seriously, this project is a useless diversion of resources. If you want to use the Internet to express yourself, try MySpace or LiveJournal, or purchase your own webhosting. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a web hosting service or a creative design outlet. Kelly Martin (talk) 23:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There where many good editors on this project trying to help new users? To delete this page is to say that we do not need user pages, because all we were trying to do was help.  Thetruthbelow  23:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, don't you think it's more useful to help new users with editing issues than helping them create fancy user pages? It's not a question of not needing user pages, it's a question of not encouraging new users to waste a bunch of time on fancy ones. Rx StrangeLove 23:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Even "simple" things like making a good looking table can be challenging to those unaccustomed to wiki markup, html, or coding. I'd rather have new users learning on their userpage than in article space.  (I'm not going to be a member of this project - I'm not qualified.)  I also think, having previously read the deletion review, that WP:AGF is called for and not adequately being followed in regards to this project.  GRBerry 01:08, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know where assuming good faith enters into it, I don't see anyone not doing that. This isn't about teaching markup for use in editing articles and doesn't say a word about it....if it were there's plenty of places to get help in that area as well as personal sandboxes they can use. This is about focusing on making userpages, there's nothing on the project page that says anything about coding help for articles. Rx StrangeLove 02:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

My objections
The page is currently going through MfD, and although I don't think the general idea is bad, I strongly object to the emphasis on being able to request that someone designs for your userpage for you. I'm happy with those that answer requests on their own (Sango123 et al), but having a central requests page, as well as the other references around the WikiProject, will create a sense of entitlement for someone to come along and give you a pretty userpage. Apart from the time-wasting issue, it would remove the personal aspect of the userpage if the user didn't involve himself in the design and execution - and, of course, it removes the defence that this page could help users learn markup.

I will change my vote to keep if by the end of this MfD:
 * 1) The 'Design Requests' and 'Design Assignments' pages are removed.
 * 2) The 'Designers' page is changed to 'Participants', without the suggestion that all the participants are supposed to actively design people's userpages for them. The text of the page should be rewritten accordingly. The project should also be open to all, regardless of ability. You don't need any qualifications to answer questions at the Help Desk or Reference Desk, anyone can become a Mediation Cabbalist or Advocate, so there's no need for this to be special.
 * 3) Basically, the 'DIY Advice' section should be the emphasis of the Wikiproject. So move the 'Questions' sub-section to its own section, keeping the rest as 'Tutorials'. That gives three sections - a list of participants, centralised tutorials, and a place where people can ask for ideas or advice. If people do ask for advice, there's no reason why a participant shouldn't do some of the work for them if they want, but the point is you won't get new editors with 100 edits saying 'please create my userpage from scratch with lots of userboxes saying that I think Bush is stupid and emos suck' and getting unhappy if they're refused.

As not all my changes are a matter of moving things around, I'll be happy to do them myself if I receive support. If those changes are put through and stick I'll gladly change my opinion at the MfD and sign myself up. I know the MfD may result in a keep with or without my support, but I believe that my suggestions would improve the focus of the project anyway and should be considered. I think that if the participants give out the right advice, we could focus people on how a userpage should look, and undo some of the damage caused by Userboxes. --Sam Blanning(talk) 10:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That is all very good advice, and I will discuss it with the other founders. Thank you,  Thetruthbelow  21:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Changes
Changes have been made.  Thetruthbelow  22:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I might have a go at making some edits of my own later, as I think some of the text could be improved, but right now it's way too late. I have changed my opinion in the MfD. You might want to drop User:Johnleemk a note as well, as he said "Conditional Delete as per Sam Blanning" so it could be worth asking him if his opinion has changed. --Sam Blanning(talk) 02:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Currently, we are expanding the DIY section and making it a big part of the project. -- GeorgeMoney T&middot;C 03:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This is good. I might actually be able to declutter my userpage. :p Johnleemk | Talk 08:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Templates
Should we provide templates and example userpages for the DIY section? Or will that be doing the work for them? -- GeorgeMoney T&middot;C 04:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * How about a gallery of screen shots of real user pagers and then you could link to that version in the history, so people can check out the wiki-mark-up for different features? David D. (Talk) 05:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * David, that is a great idea. I actually have to leave for a while and actually can't do it myself, but hopefully another member will.  Thetruthbelow  05:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I very much like the idea of providing user page templates. I just thought of the idea, and started looking around Wikipedia to see if anyone else had already thought of it first. This WikiProject is the closest I've found, and I think making a set of user page templates would be a really useful thing this project could do. I'll join the project and try making some templates (perhaps basing them on some good user pages). If everyone had a go at making a template, or contributing to another one, we could come up with a good library of automated user page templates for people to use. Making a good looking user page could be a simple matter of:
 * The template could make a table and automatically fit the parameters into the appropriate parts of the table. If something like this is going to be done, then where should the templates be put? Well, that's my suggestion, and I'm just about to join this project. Markdarb 00:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The template could make a table and automatically fit the parameters into the appropriate parts of the table. If something like this is going to be done, then where should the templates be put? Well, that's my suggestion, and I'm just about to join this project. Markdarb 00:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Three suggestions
I think /Suggestions is a bit unnecessary at the moment. Until this talk page starts getting cluttered, there's no need to split anything off. My idea is to redirect that page here, change the link on the main page to link to here, and put a header at the top of this page explaining what this page is for - i.e. talking about the WikiProject, while linking to the places to ask for help with designing userpages. I'll go ahead and do it in a while if I don't get any strong objections.

Secondly, we've got some great articles on formatting, but little on content so far. I think some advice in this area could be useful, and I'll try to write something later. I think if it went in a separate section from 'DIY advice', it would be a sensible split - perhaps rename the current 'DIY advice' to 'Formatting advice' or similar, and name the new section 'Content advice'.

Lastly, /Help Requests still reflects the 'decorators for hire' nature which (I hope) we've agreed to move away from. I think a 'Q & A' board, similar in format to the Help desk, would be more appropriate, so everyone could get involved with requests. I suggest adding an 'inactive, preserved for historical interest' header to Help Requests in order to preserve the two requests that were completed, and creating a new page in its place. If users want help from individual users, the participants page would be the perfect place for that. Again, if no-one strongly objects to this idea I'll go ahead and do it. --Sam Blanning(talk) 10:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Support. Also, I think I fixed the example page for the title header to show the links. why don't you go see if it looks better. -- GeorgeMoney T&middot;C 18:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * My Idea I think that we should replace the suggestions thing with a Q&A board. However, I would like to still keep the Help requests section of the project. This section allows you to become more involved with helping the user, and I don't think that this project should become just a gathering place of data. We should have that data, but we should also have people that are willing to help you personally with that data. Thetruthbelow 19:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, I've put 1 and 2 through. 2 is the biggest change, being a whole new section, and I hope the advice given there is satisfactory - if not, please edit mercilessly, and whether it is or not, please add anything you can think of. I also did a minor reorganisation of the main page, moving the 'DIY section' to 'Formatting Advice' (which is what it all was, AFAICT), making room for two distinct sections. One thing I've dodged for the moment is the big Tee One issue - there should be a section on putting your personal beliefs on your userpage and the pros and cons. I tried to write one, but got stuck. Still, the issue about whether it's more or less acceptable to write "I oppose homosexuality", "I am a Christian", "I am interested in Christianity" and the most outrageous and inflammatory of all "I am a deletionist" cries out to be addressed in that section. I will have another go at some point... maybe.
 * With the third issue, I see Thetruthbelow's point, and I'm not opposed to offering personal help. I'll think about the wording of the header of that page, we should be able to accomodate both Help Desk-style general requests and requests for more long-term, personal help.
 * Got a somewhat new suggestion - how about a section on the winners of the Esperanza User Page Award? I was thinking along the lines of a brief analysis of each winner (or as many as we can be bothered with) - the particularly good stuff they have on their pages, both in terms of content and prettiness, and most importantly, how to do it. It would serve as a concrete example of what works, and how to do it (I myself would really love to know how to do ElAmericano's 'Deep questions' slidy box.) --Sam Blanning(talk) 23:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow! You did a great job! And you have some great ideas. Also, the box is easy. All you have to do is steal the code off of someone's vandalism box. Also, I agree. We should make a "help-desk-like" thing where people can ask questions and we can help them. And I think we should implement your idea about the ESP userpage award. I wish I could give you a barnprinter (that is my version of barnstars) for all the hard work you are doing. Thanks! -- GeorgeMoney T&middot;C 00:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Some random stuff
I too was impressed by ElAmericano's user page. I got a screen shot of his page. I'm not sure if this is useful to your project but here it is. i also checked out the code for the sliding box. It is very simple and the first time I have seen it used in wiki. Here is the code for the box he used on his page (i did modify it slightly to give a fixed width (width:300px).
 *   contents of box here    

In his user page the width is not defined and so it adjust according to the window size. This might be something you want to add to the DIY section.


 * What is the meaning of life? And what does that question mean?
 * Where is the line between life and non-life?
 * Where does choice come from?
 * Why is life proactive, as opposed to nonlife, which simply obeys the laws of physics, without using energy to—say—defy gravity?
 * Can emotion be programmed?
 * Where do we feel?
 * Why does art move us?
 * What makes us want to be better, to have purpose?

The key to this sliding box is using the style overflow:auto in addition to defining height (height: 100px), border (border: thin solid blue) and background (background: white).David D. (Talk) 16:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Query
Is there any easy way to make the two boxes in the first part of my userpage align exactly at the same pixel at the bottom apart from crafting the exact height needed by experimenting manually and having to update it whenever I add text? &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 10:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Project directory
Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 14:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Monobook
What are all these monobooks (monobook.jc, monobook.css, monobook.php) what is the difference, how do they work and what do they do???Chris5897 11:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)