Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Utah/Archive 1

Butch Cassidy
Do you think this would be an appropriate article to add the project template to? -Visorstuff 22:03, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * If you believe so, sure. --[jon ]   [talk ]    12:10, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Proposed goals statement
Adapted from the Texas project

1. To improve the quality and quantity of Utah related articles. 2. To present a holistic view of Utah rather than the view of one region of Utah. 3. To make Wikipedia one of the premier online resources on Utah.

These might seem like a statement of the obvious but most projects benefit from a clear statement of goals (I was a project manager in a previous life) In point number 2 I also think we should consider more than just the regions in making the view holistic, a well rounded set of articles is desirable even more than a non-regional view - anyone have a better way of stating #2?

Bob Palin 06:05, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Maybe just that, "Present a well-rounded view of Utah as a whole." I could see the project becoming very Wasatch-o-centric. I believe that we need to think of the state as a whole entity. The best way to do that would to get cracking on a History of Utah article. I also think we should bring the county articles up to snuff. User:Bob_rulz has done alot of work on the Salt Lake County, Utah, but others have been neglected. Maybe each member could tackle a region, its counties and cities and various sites and such. More on this later. --[jon ]   [talk ]    11:49, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

How do these sound for goals?:
 * 1) To improve the quality and quantity of Utah related articles.
 * 2) Present a well-rounded view of Utah as a whole.
 * 3) To make Wikipedia one of the premier online resources on Utah.
 * -[jon ]   [talk ]    12:14, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Since no one objects, I will add these goals to the front page. [jon ]   [talk ]    12:26, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good. I've done some work on Tooele County, Utah (mostly due to the Liberal Party, but it has much more history than most counties, and I like it.

I'd also like to the state's ten or so largest schools districts get articles, both for their utility, but also because they pre-empt high school article creation.

I've corraled Springville High School (which survived VfD months ago) into Nebo School District and I plan to write Granite School District (which I kinda work for), and Jordan School District&mdash;the two largest in the state and among the 100 largest in the country. For the sake of completeness, I'll also make Murray City School District, thus covering all the districts in Salt Lake County. I think district pages offer several advantages.

First, many VfD contributors wring their hands at high school entries, but accept districts (with several high schools, they're presumably more notable). By making a framework of districts we can simply move or merge any errant high school stubs into the applicable district. I believe Utah could be a model in this regard. Also, if we make an article called something like "Public education in Utah" we can list the districts and give a top-level overview of the state's public education.

District pages enlighten parents and students who might not otherwise learn the history of where they attend school. District websites rarely cover history for some reason, but I think history is the most interesting aspect of most high schools/districts.

Finally, with something like 37 districts, we could concievably eventually have every district covered and not clutter wikipedia with scores of high schools.

This is a back-burner project for me, but if anyone sees any high school articles, I think this is the best course for us. Move/merge into applicable district. Cool Hand Luke  19:30, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Sounds great! --[jon ]   [talk ]    21:11, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

History breakdown and regional articles
I have broken the history article into four smaller articles in the todo box. I would like to have a main article as a general overview of Utah history. I would also like four more in-depth articles, one, pre-1847, cover the Native American, early European explorers, etc. 1847 to 1896, covering the period from when Mormon pioneers first entered the Salt Lake Valley, through the State of Deseret and territorial status (there is already an article Utah Territory to statehood. Then 1896 to 1947, covering early statehood and the two world wars to the 100th anniversary of settlement, and then from 1947, covering modern Utah. I know its a big task, what does everyone think?

Also, I would like to break the state up into 4 or 5 regions, and have each member of the group focus on a specific region. Utah.com divides Utah into 9 regions, but that seems to be too many. What do you think of this idea?
 * --[jon ]   [talk ]    21:11, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Utah Department of Transportation divides Utah up into 3 Regions (Ogden, Salt Lake, Provo, South) and the South is split up into 3 Districts (Cedar City, Price, Richfield). I created a map of these 6 Boundaries for a different project and can provide it for Wikipedia-use if anyone is interested. BigBen212 19:22, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Here's the image [[Image:Image Utah_Regions.jpg|thumb|100px|right|Utah Regions]] BigBen212 20:06, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

- That seems to be the best way to do it to me, I volunteer to do the south-east corner since I live down here, say Wayne, Piute, Garfield, San Juan, Kane Counties, that's about 20,000 square miles and 26,000 people, lots of geography and geology but not too much history I should think though I am new in Utah and don't know it's history well. I can handle part or all of Sevier and Emery counties if nobody else wants them. Bob Palin 06:24, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

- I will volunteer to do portions of Northern Utah, such as Cache, Rich, Box Elder, Salt Lake, and Davis counties, since those are the areas I am interested in the most. However, I could expand out to other areas if need be. Also, I will try to contribute what I can to the Utah History article, espeically the more modern history. Also, it would be great if we could get everyone working on the actual Utah article. I've already contributed significantly to it. My specialties are climate, geography, and transportation, and my weakness is culture. bob rulz 07:46, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * I do mostly Salt Lake and Tooele County. Cool Hand Luke  23:34, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Great, thanks guys. I would also like to try to collect a list of all Utah-related articles, stubs, etc. We could use the project namespace for that I think: (WikiProject Utah/List of Utah-related articles for full-on articles and WikiProject Utah/List of Utah-related stubs for stubs would work, maybe?). I think that would help us get a good look at what needs to be worked on. Probably breaking the articles up by region would be a good idea (Northern, Southern, Central and Eastern maybe?) so everyone knows what is done and what is needed in their region. Also, a Utah stub notice would be cool, too. I have way too many ideas.


 * Also, maybe an assessment of what categories there are for Utah would be nice. I will not have much computer time this weekend, but please feel free to work on any of this if you have time.

Here is a stub notice for Utah:

I also made: Category:Utah stubs --[jon ]   [talk ]    19:36, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I created which resulted in Category:Utah geography stubs which I made a member of Utah stubs. There will soon be an unmanagable number of Utah stubs so I think it better to break them down into a heirarchy right from the start. (Take a look at Category:US geography stubs !) Bob Palin 22:36, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC) -- There doesn't seem to be any consistency or agreement in that discussion, I'll certainly go along with the proposed scheme when it emerges. I think a UT-geo-stub category is perfectly valid given the huge number of items in the parent category and the fact that we have an ongoing project. There will always be disagreements in this area but the beauty of wikipedia is that you get to do what you think is right. Hopefully the need for a UT-geo-stub will go away as a result of this project. Bob Palin 18:18, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Great, but please also see WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Criteria before creating any other notices, apparently there has been some opposition to this, because Texas was trying to do it too... --[jon ]   [talk ]    23:37, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's my point also. Only the states which have projects should have stub notices. It's silly to make fifty notices if it won't help "destubbing" efforts. I hope to get some work started on the history articles this week. I think I will take a page from Texas, and put it at WikiProject Utah/History of Utah while we get it good enough to put up. Also, a collaberation of the week (or fortnight) would be nice... --[jon ]    [talk ]    19:14, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Utah vs LDS jurisdiction
We need to work out criteria for what falls under the jurisdiction of the LDS project and the Utah project. This is why I wanted LDS project people on board. Which does Zion's Co-operative Mercantile Institution fall under? What about the men who were both, say LDS General Authorities AND governor of Utah? Should it be Utah or LDS?

Also, we should set up style guidlines. I think something to the effect of "All City and County articles shall be consistant with the guidlines set forth in WikiProject Cities and WikiProject U.S. Counties repectively. As for the other articles, I'm sure we can work something out. --[jon ]   [talk ]    13:28, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I say that whichever team gets there first will create the article and fill in as much as they can. Since there is an overlap, some should be filled in on both the secular and religious roles that they played. Then notice can be placed in on the other project's web page (in a section that should be created) about the need to fill in information. If you know information enough to start an article, please proceed. Fill in what you can and let others fill in more. That's been my attitude. Val42 01:00, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

Photos and Maps
Hi, I'd like to help and this is what I can offer: BigBen212 17:22, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Photos of places in Utah, especially Nat. Parks and Salt Lake City Area (some are already spread throughout articles by Cool Hand Luke but I have a lot more, just let me know what's needed.
 * I am currently working at the Utah Department of Transportation as an intern and we use GIS-Software here and that would be a great tool to create Maps (elevation models of certain areas, streets, county borders, ...). Again, just let me know what's needed.


 * Welcome to the project! If you can swing it, a basic map of Salt Lake City would be a great addition to the Salt Lake City, Utah article. Nothing to specific, just maybe showing the highways and main through streets. Something along the lines of what Seattle, Washington has. It has to be public domain, though, or not copyrighted and free to release under the GNU Free Documentation License. Any other maps you can add would be great, though! Thanks for joining!
 * [jon ]   [talk ]    17:41, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Maybe something like this would help: [[Media:SaltLakeMap.png|Map of Salt Lake]]
 * BigBen212 18:34, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks, but for some reason, my browser won't let me view it there. Is it possible for you upload it as a wikipedia [[image:]] and post it on this talk page? Sorry about the trouble. :-) --[jon ]   [talk ]    18:55, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image Location - I would like to suggest that we put images in the Wikimedia Commons rather than Wikipedia, that seems to be the way of the future. Bob Palin 19:21, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Whichever...I just can't see it where it is... Also, Bob, I would appreciate any comments on my above question about LDS vs Utah --[jon ]   [talk ]    19:27, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I uploaded it to Wikimedia Commons. Has the File name SaltLakeMap.png there (I don't know how to add a commons picture to the en-page right now, though). On en it is this one: [[Image:SaltLakeMap.png|thumb|right|100px|Salt Lake City Map]] BigBen212 19:59, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I will add it to the article later today, unless you want to ;-) --[jon ]   [talk ]    20:25, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh no, you can just go ahead. BigBen212 20:35, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * You don't have to do anything different to include an image from the Commons, it just happens, I suppose if it is in both places it will pick the wikipedia version. Bob Palin 20:28, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, that sounds easy enough. I'll keep that in mind for future additions. BigBen212 20:35, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Counties - To get started on the counties, I thought it might be good to have a map of each county that shows the location of it's cities and so forth. I've made one for Beaver County to see what "y'all" think about it. If you approve and want those on the county pages, lemme know and I will create more of them. Bob Palin: It's on Commons. BigBen212 19:04, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Very nice! I have no problem with that. Is it possible to highlight the county seat, with a star or something? --[jon ]   [talk ]    19:21, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I highlighted the County Seat by just changing the text color to red instead of black. Think that might be better than having a star either over the city boundaries or next to the city name and have people wonder where the description of the star might be :). BigBen212 19:30, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I am done with the maps for the Counties of Beaver, Box Elder and Cache. I'll create more tomorrow. The city boundaries of the County Seat are red now, with the name of the County Seat bigger than those of the other cities. Please have a look at them and let me know what could/should be different so I don't create 29 of them to find out they are not good :). BigBen212 00:27, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC) [[Image:CtyMapBoxElder.png|thumb|right|100px|Box Elder County Map]]




 * The only thing I can think of is maybe a smaller map of Utah in the corner to give perspective on where each is in Utah. We already have county locator maps, so this might be redundant. It's just an idea. --[jon ]   [talk ]    00:35, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Might be redundant, but still shouldn't be a problem to get a little map of Utah into one of the corners. When you have the whole thing resized to fit on a page though, I wonder how well the little map would be visible anyway. What do the others think? BigBen212 16:28, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Here is one proposal: a little quicky template:

It is currently housed on the project namespace, but could be moved later. It probably needs more parameter, and such, please let me know how to improve it. --[jon ]   [talk ]    20:46, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Could be done like that if you ask me. That way it's not in the middle of everything and we still keep the standard county map that is on all the pages about counties in the US. Before you put it on the County pages though, I think I will finish the other counties first. BigBen212 01:10, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I like the templates with the counties. However, perhaps you could specify whether the population figures are from the 2000 Census or from the latest estimates perhaps? bob rulz 06:07, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, I redid the template (added the code to this page, so if you want to play with it...) Added (2000) to the population. --[jon ]   [talk ]    17:36, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Oh my gosh, these are great! I was thinking about using the census bureau to make a Salt Lake City map, but these are much better. I particularly like the county maps. I wonder though: can you make a map showing the politcal boundary of Salt Lake City proper? Cool Hand Luke  23:31, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I was going to redo the map of Salt Lake City because I used MapWindow, and that map does not look as good as I think the ones of the counties do. So I am going to use ESRI ArcMap instead and recreate the SLC-map and I am going to do more county maps tomorrow (couldn't find the time to do that today). I'll keep you posted on the progress. BigBen212 00:09, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Would it be possible to add major attractions to the map? Maybe a map highlighting downtown, and all the landmarks (temple, city and county bldg, etc)? Look at (I hate to say this) Seattle, Washington for an example of a really well done city map. They somehow mimicked the style of the CIA World Factbook (Which I really like--It looks so clean...). Hope this helps a bit... --[jon ]   [talk ]    17:36, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I personally think that the Seattle map is...empty and ugly. Its an ugly color of yellow with a bunch of labeled dots on it. They could at least put the roads on there! bob rulz 06:48, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)


 * Done creating the county maps. They can be found at User:BigBen212/UtahCountyMaps, cause I didn't want to post them all on this talk page. About the Salt Lake City Map. Wikipedia Commons already has one that I created today that looks a lot better than my first version. It has the same filename as the old one, but since that is still on the english wikipedia, the new one won't show up till the old one is deleted. I put up a request to get it deleted. Unfortunately I don't have a layer containing the mayor attractions and buildings in Salt Lake City, but next week I am going to create a layer from the positions that I will just take from satellite images of Salt Lake. Until the old SLC map is deleted, please go to the Commons and there to my user page User:BigBen212 that creates a thumbnail for the new one. That's all for right now. Good night. BigBen212 03:42, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * A couple minor things about the maps: in the lower left hand corner, it says "double click to enter text", also, now Cottonwood Heights and Holladay are now incorporated cities to the east. Lastly, I don't think Taylorsville is any longer called "Taylorsville-Bennion City", just Taylorsville. Thanks for all the work, these look really nice! --[jon ]   [talk ]    04:12, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Ups, didn't realize that the shapefile I've been using was so old. I am going to check out if I can find something a little more current. Also thanks for pointing out the thing about the "double click to enter text", I didn't even see that one. Like I said, the old picture is up for deletion. Maybe we should keep it out of the Salt Lake City article till we find one that we can all agree on.
 * True. I was thinking, maybe this map would be better for the article Wasatch Front, since that is more what it is. Then maybe have a map that zeros in on Salt Lake more for that article. Then it would be easier to add points of interest. What do you think?--[jon ]   [talk ]    19:11, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I deleted it. That looks wonderful. The reliefs effects for the mountains are compelling, and I might crop this photo to show the watershed of City Creek (Salt Lake City), which is clearly visible. Cool Hand Luke  03:22, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What do people think of this NASA photo of Salt Lake? It was on Wikimedia Commons, and I think it is quite pretty. I'm not sure where to fit it, though, the article is quite pic-heavy as is...--[jon ]   [talk ]    20:00, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

-- How about putting it in Wasatch Front ? Bob Palin 01:12, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * The problem is is that that satellite photo shows the southern part of the Salt Lake Valley, which is not where Salt Lake City itself is, so perhaps that could be put under something else? bob rulz 06:35, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

I tried creating a map of Salt Lake City and putting some points of interest in there. The problem is that there is way too much downtown and way too little outside of downtown, so I created it for Downtown (Salt Lake City) instead. It's already on that page. BigBen212 23:46, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Open task list
I added an open task list to the front page to replace the to do list. I think it looks a little nice and will take up less space. What does everyone think? --[jon ]   [talk ]    17:25, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

List of Utah-related Categories
Here is (as far as I can tell) a list of Utah-related categories: WikiProject Utah/List of Utah-related categories. If sub cats appear in more than one cat, I list their sub cats only once. Hopefully this will help to create a more comprehensive list of related articles. --[jon ]   [talk ]    23:44, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Collaboration
I really think the main article, Utah, needs alot of attention. We should have a collaboration of the week or fortnight and really fix this article up before anything else. We should get the article to FA standards, and follow WP US States guidelines. Any suggestions to approach it? --[jon ]   [talk ]    15:34, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with this. It needs a lot of attention. And, as everyone has probably noticed, I've done a lot of work on it myself...but I can't carry the whole load! I significantly expanded the history, transportation, and geography sections and created the climate section (one of my main specialties). However, I've done basically all I can do on the state (unless you want me to go into minute detail). bob rulz 06:10, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * So, should we add a collaboration of the week, then? I really dislike that template of Utah symbols. It's redundant as well as incomplete, and very long. Also, if anyone wants to contribute, I started a history outline: WikiProject Utah/History of Utah. Needs much work, though.--[jon ]   [talk ]    17:41, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Stub notice
I changed the icon on the general Utah stub notice to the state flag, to differentiate it from the geo-stubs, which a map makes more sense on... --[jon ]   [talk ]    18:52, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Trails and Canyons
How detailed should we get in the Wikipedia articles? Personally, I'm interested in the public trail systems and Canyons along the Wasatch Front. I'm sure that there are other trail systems throughout the state. Should we get this detailed? Val42 01:19, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)


 * Sure, one of our goals is to make Wikipedia one of the best online sorces for Utah. Anything you can contribute to this end would be great. Keep us abreast of what you do, so we can make sure it all fits with the conventions for articles of this type, but beside this, please feel free to do whatever you need! --[jon ]   [talk ]    12:43, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Special favor
Liberal Party (Utah) will be featured on the front page Tuesday Monday(!), thus it and articles it links to will recieve additional attention. I'm alarmed at the many red links and stubs in this article, and am working on articles for R. N. Baskin, Patrick E. Connor, the People's Party Godbe and the Godbeites, but I won't be able to do everything. Could somebody write reasonably good articles on George Montgomery Scott and Daniel H. Wells? They're both very interesting people, but I don't think I'll be able to write their articles. I have pictures for both, here are some references: Thanks in advance for any help you can give Liberal Party (Utah). Cool Hand Luke  03:55, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * List of documents in State Historical Society concerning Scott, but has a good short biography on him. Scott was the first non-Mormon mayor of Salt Lake City]
 * Colorful incidents in SLC mayoral history, including some from Wells. Wells was very interesting. He was a Nauvoo Legionaire, an LDS apostle (although he was never part of the Quorum of the Twelve), and federal troops attempted to arrest him while he was mayor. See also: other history-to-go refs.
 * Wells from Grandpa Bill's General Authority page
 * Sure, I will try to tackle Scott, if that's OK. I have some book references, too. --[jon ]   [talk ]    12:49, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Couldn't find anything about Scott in my books, but I wrote a good stub. I will try Wells, too maybe. I also borrowed the pic of Wells for a Utah bio stub:

--[jon ]   [talk ]    14:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh thank you. Its actually going to be featured tomorrow. I've been distracted the last few hours too... Cool Hand Luke  15:00, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I made a stub for Wells. Hope this helps a bit. --[jon ]   [talk ]    19:12, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

County Maps
I would like a consensus on how to approach the maps BigBen212 so kindly made for us. What does everyone think of the above template? any suggestions? Should we submit it to WikiProject_U.S. Counties first? Or just add the maps without the template? --[jon ]   [talk ]    19:12, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I like the template. Gives a good and quick overview of the important data. I'm German, so bear with me, does Largest city mean population or does it also mean area, because that is not always the same. Example: Garfield County, Utah: Most population Panguitch with 3.5 km², 1632 population, most area Boulder with 54.2 km², 180 population. BigBen212 16:20, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * In English, I think "Largest City" is assumed as "Most Populous". Example: New York is "larger" than Los Angeles, since it has a larger population, even though LA has a much larger land area. The physical size of a city is less important. Ich hatte zwei Jahre Deutsch in High School gelernt, aber ich habe Meiste vergessen! --[jon ]   [talk ]    17:53, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I like the template too and think we should go ahead and use it on the Utah county pages. Jon, you remember more German than I do and I lived in Heidelberg for a year as well as learning in high school! I had no idea that Boulder was so big in area, wonder what that's about. I rode my motorcycle through there in a snow storm yesterday.  Bob Palin 19:16, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Maybe I will work a bit on that then