Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism/Archive 2

Articles that need work
On the WikiProject page there is too much being added to the "Articles that need work" and page request sections especially "veg persons" without enough work being done. Instead of adding more and more I think we need to complete what is requested. I plan on working through some of these next week. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:00, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Mahatma Gandhi listed at Requested moves
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Relationship between speciesism and the AIC
I've started a discussion on the relationship between speciesism and the animal-industrial complex. The link is here. Rasnaboy (talk) 07:41, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

The Vegan Society
The Vegan Society article needs to be expanded with reliable sources, especially about the formation and early members of the Society. Please see current discussion on talk-page and any suggestions for reliable sources would be useful. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:33, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

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cats
@User:MaynardClark, the domestic housecat is an obligate carnivore. I'm not sure what this means. —valereee (talk) 02:07, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * @—valereee
 * Surely your concern for the subjectively AND the physicality of companion animals (cats specifically) is commendable. However, they are not alone in 'the moral situation', nor are they and their attention givers alone in the situation.  There are absent referents.  How does that impact your outlook?  Regardless of their need for taurine (the article discusses about the REASON that taurine cannot be synthesized from cysteine), the killing of other (otherwise innocent) animals - several animals - for each cat (whom humans choose to feed, about which killing they learn to feel good, cannot be justified from the perspective of the victimized animals.
 * Cats have a sulfinoalanine decarboxylase deficiency, preventing the synthesis of taurine from cysteine.
 * Ethical argument:
 * I would like to introduce a moral argument here; moral arguments are frequently used in issue advocacy, including in animal advocacy.
 * The article cat food discussed (in a single sentence) the conversion difficulty internal to cats' metabolism (that makes them 'obligate carnivores' - a designation). That conversion difficulty could be addressed medically, pharmaceutically, or by food processing IF the evidence is found (or available) and translated into an evidence-based intervention that resolves the 'moral dilemma'.  What IS that moral dilemma?  Is it situationally arbitrary and based entirely upon subjective preferences by pet owners and the industries that support their decisions because they can pay for them (and because the laws currently allow that capricious whim)?
 * The 3rd party hired to kill disadvantaged nonhumans in order to feed advantaged companion animals pet lovers prefer is in a strange moral dilemma. To claim that anyone's anatomy justifies killing someone else by a 3rd party cannot be justified except in terms of the perspectives of the 'powerful' (e.g. 'justice is the interest of the stronger' - Thrasymachus. However, if a pharmaceutical intervention OR a veterinarian-designed plant-based cat food can (or could) be developed, that moral problem (killing some animals for other animals we prefer to advantage) can be reduced or eliminated.  Do you disagree that we should resolve moral dilemmas?
 * The topic has been addressed for dogs ; cats are prevalent companion animals (and - I argue - the moral argument did not vanish just because of the cats' anatomy and physiology) and research in plant-based diets and animal physiology may open different historical possibilities for those who are morally sensitive to the seeming incongruity of advantaging those we prefer at the existential cost of those who matter far less to us. [User:MaynardClark|MaynardClark]] (talk) 02:27, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Technical challenges for plant-based feeding for ALL 'caged and companion animals' are not simple, but the prospect of plant-based feeding eventually for ALL 'caged and companion animals' is not unthinkable. However, surely that historical prospect is faced with - confronted with - some very real scientific challenges, which could be listed (at the outset?) in any article on the prospect of plant-based feeding for ALL 'caged and companion animals' (specifically for cats because of their long and extensive presence in the array of many different human societies and civilizations.  Admitting the possibility is not 'the moral equivalent' of telling those alive in August 2021 to stop feeding their cats without consulting their veterinarian and reading broadly and deeply on the topic. On the other hand, if human beings discuss it vigorously and begin to demand it, research funding and development will surely follow in order to tap market demand (opportunity).  What can the word 'justice' possibly mean if we don't recall and deeply consider the PETA warning of the 1980s, 'Good intensions are not enough!'?
 * Biomedical research, specifically biomedical research in the United States, has not been shy to research orphan diseases and preventable medical conditions that result from human choices; biomedical research has also not been reluctant to research the genetics and genomics of complex diseases. With proper motivation, we might creatively envision, there could be sufficient political and scientific will to research the possibility of plant-based feeding for ALL caged and companion animals, if, indeed, killing one otherwise innocent animal merely to feed a preferred animal is morally repugnant (or at least indefensible), and if more and more humans (who matter in public decisionmaking) begin to realize that 'inherited moral problem.' MaynardClark (talk) 03:08, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Please don't shout. —valereee (talk) 02:33, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * MC, when you insert stuff above other people's comments, it makes it look like they're responding to what you've inserted instead of what they actually responded to.
 * I'm not sure why you put all that out there. What I don't understand is Article needs review of wording that may (intentionally) bias the readership against seriously considering the hard, inescapable REASONS FOR plant-based diets for companion animals. What are you seeing as wording that intentionally biases readers (an accusation of intentional POV pushing is an accusation of bad faith and needs actual evidence) and what are you trying to emphasize with the all-capping? —valereee (talk) 11:26, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Not enough research exists on cat plant-based diets. This was recently published this year link to the study  which concluded cats can do well on such a diet but this was only a study of questionnaires so the information came from the cat owners and this has serious biases and limitations. This was published a year ago  which analysed vegan cat and dog food and found they all "had one or more nutrients below the recommended levels". Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:42, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * There is a market for it; it may be ill-advised (based on science and practice, which may be insufficient for knowledge experts to confidently advise anyone to 'go ahead' with any currently available foods.MaynardClark (talk) 02:34, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Who was the oldest vegan human who ever lived?
There are a lot of vegetarian and pescatarian centenarians or those who lived into their late 90s but I am searching for the oldest vegan centenarian. Loreen Dinwiddie died age 109 is sometimes listed as the oldest vegan. She had a Wikipedia article but it was deleted years ago. There was also Ellsworth Wareham died age 104.

Someone compiled a list here but most of them are not vegan and would not qualify for Wikipedia articles due to lack of sources. Do you know of any others? Which notable vegans have lived 100+ years? Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:23, 18 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Fauja Singh currently 110 years old is lacto-vegetarian. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:28, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Du Pinhua was a Buddhist vegetarian alleged to have lived to 120 years but this was never validated. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe the Loreen Dinwiddie page should be resurrected. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:30, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes I thought that myself, I think it should be and there are a few sources out there about her life. I have spent a few hours looking at this, I think she was the oldest vegan that ever lived. There are some very old vegetarians like Teresa Hsu 113 years and Christian Mortensen age 115 years buts its much more difficult to find vegan centenarians. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:36, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand there is also misinformation on this topic from different websites for example one website promoting raw veganism was claiming centenarian Olive Watson was a raw vegan. Watson lived to be 106 years old and was a Seventh-Day Adventist . In an interview though she revealed her dietary habits which included fish but no red-meat or dairy . Most of the longest living Adventists have been pescatarian or vegetarian, not vegan. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:51, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Here a few other long-lived vegetarians but still can't find any other centenarian vegans. Reg Dean, vegetarian 110 years old, Soogaree Jattan vegetarian 110 years old. Beatrice Wood vegetarian 105 years old, Marie-Louise Meilleur vegetarian 117 years old, Ramjit Raghav vegetarian 104 years old, Fenner Brockway vegetarian 99 years old, James Martin Peebles vegetarian 99 years old, Severin Wielobycki vegetarian 100 years old, Mac Henderson vegetarian 101 years old. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:27, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Mable Cluer was a vegan centenarian and founding member of the Vegan Society, died age 103  Psychologist Guy (talk)
 * I would ask Freya Dinshah and Hans Diehl and John A. McDougall and Michael Klaper and Pamela Rice and John Robbins and Will Tuttle and Keith Akers. MaynardClark That may involve someone's PHONING American Vegan Society and asking if they have a historical book that has such information. (talk) 01:46, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * MaynardClark, I am one of the few people in the world with extensive article and book collection on veganism/vegetarianism, I have read 1000s of articles/books on this subject, but listing vegan centenarians is not actually reported in the literature so it is unlikely the people you mentioned will be able to bring anything new to the table but thanks for the suggestion. In the vegetarian/vegan literature they sometimes list sportspeople but not longevity. The exception is Ellsworth Wareham who is mentioned in a few recent publications. Someone recently told me that Sudhakar Chaturvedi was the longest lived vegetarian at 122 years old, but it was never confirmed and he was not vegan. I suspect that guy was actually in his early 90s. Based on what I have seen so far, Loreen Dinwiddie was the oldest vegan at 109 years. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:07, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Florence Gustafson Ready vegan lived 103 years, Gladys Stanfield vegetarian lived 105 years . Loreen Dinwiddie's article should be recreated, I will attempt this by the end of the year. Psychologist Guy (talk) 06:59, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Good! MaynardClark (talk) 21:01, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

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Issue of interest on the Veganism talk page
See Talk:Veganism. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:23, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles for vegan/plant-based physicians
I would like to create more Wikipedia articles for contemporary plant-based/vegan physicians. Obviously we can only create articles for ones with decent sourcing. I am not sure if all these are possible but here are some suggestions:

• Joel Kahn

• Avi Bitterman

• Brooke Goldner

• Michelle McMacken

• Danielle Belardo

• Robert Ostfeld

• Angie Sadeghi

• Scott Stoll

• Saray Stancic

• Laurie Marbas

• Milton Mills

• Hans Diehl

• Wayne Dysinger

• James Loomis

• Martica Heaner

• Pamela Popper

Which of these do you think are most notable? I think Joel Kahn would qualify for an article so I will work on this one first. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Kahn is the only one I know, so he might be a good start :-) Wherever possible we should make clear in the intro if these are conventional physicians (knife, pills, radiation) that only recommend vegan diets or if they are actually treating people with lifestyle changes and diets. Tischbeinahe (talk) 08:24, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I plan on starting the Joel Khan article soon. I created an article for Will Bulsiewicz. Unfortunately after deeper research most of the names on the above list will not qualify for an article at Wikipedia per lack of reliable sources. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:58, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That Will Bulsiewicz article has been completed. However, Milton Mills (a) reportedly was valedictorian of his Stanford Medical School class and (b) has been a leading African-American vegan physician, who led some of the PCRM initiatives. MaynardClark (talk) 20:59, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Veganism article
There have been major edits and discussions on the Veganism page this last month, esp. about what to include or not include in the nutrients and health sections and to come up with a very good summary if that's even needed (see section 'Merge proposal for vegan nutrition​'). The page surely misses Slim Virgin, who kept it well afloat. Please join in, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:33, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, we all miss User:Slim Virgin. :( Rasnaboy (talk) 14:43, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Cross-listing in other WikiProjects
I wonder about the desirability of routinely but selectively cross-listing articles in other WikiProjects, such as Health and Fitness, Biography, Nutrition, Women, Women Scientists, Science, Medicine, Biology, nations or states, ethnicities and/or nationalities (e.g. Jews, Romanians. etc.).

This could foster adoption of the article by others (but subject it to more review - whether or not that is always desirable). MaynardClark (talk) 21:11, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Science_and_academia
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biology
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Food_and_drink
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Health_and_fitness
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Higher_education
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Science
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_United_States - then show the states.
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_scientists
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_writers

Annette Kellermann listed at Requested moves
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Thích Nhất Hạnh
Thích Nhất Hạnh has recently passed away. I suspect obituaries will be published so his article can be expanded. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:33, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

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Animal cruelty and the Holocaust analogy listed at Requested moves
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Talk:John A. McDougall
Hey everyone, a very spiri'ed discussion is occurring, and McDougall himself has come to add a long defense of his work and discuss errors on his page. Since it's a "high importance" page for this Wikiproject, maybe worth a look and a read. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:45, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

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Mýa listed at Requested moves
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Faxian's quote on vegetarianism in ancient India
There is an ongoing discussion regarding the relevance of Faxian's quote on vegetarianism in ancient India. Rasnaboy (talk) 18:34, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

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Non notable people
MaynardClark,

In regard to this edit, Frank L. Hoffman and Gottfried Müller are not notable for Wikipedia.

Firstly, Frank L. Hoffman's Wikipedia article was deleted in 2014. As the nominator said "The article does cite a large number of sources, but this is deceptive -- Hoffman does not pass general notability. To the extent that the biographical content in the article is supported by sources, the sources are not independent of the subject. Most of the content is sourced to his website, all-creatures.org, or his Facebook page, or websites of other organizations whose content is hosted on the all-creatures website".

You ported the article to your sandbox. In 8 years (!) you have not added any reliable references to that draft, it is almost the same article as it was deleted in 2014. The all-creatures website, Amazon, Goodreads, or Linkedin are not reliable sources. I do not see a single reliable source on your draft, it is a very poor article. You have no chance of ever getting that person added to Wikipedia because no reliable sources document their life so why keep it on the WikiProject? The article fails WP:GNG. If reliable sources did exist for this person you would have created their article by now but in 8 years you have not done this.

Gottfried Johannes Müller in your sandbox also does not look notable. This article has been deleted twice before on Wikipedia. Based on what can be found online only 1 reliable reference describes his life but this is not enough to write a Wikipedia biography. Your draft was also recently declined. I know you are very interested in veganism and vegetarianism and you are very knowledgeable and have met a lot of people in this field but we need to keep the aims of this WikiProject realistic. This is not a promotion for people you have met in real life and you want a Wiki bio for. These people are not notable according to Wikipedia guidelines. We can only create biographies for vegans or vegetarians if we have reliable sources. Some of the people you are requesting are not notable, you have made good suggestions elsewhere but Hoffman and Müller are a dead-end, I think you should give up on these and find others with reliable sources. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:00, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Veggie burger listed at Requested moves
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Relevance of Faxian's quote in the article History of Animal Rights
I've started a discussion regarding the relevance of adding Faxian's quote on vegetarianism in ancient India in the article History of animal rights. The link is here:. Rasnaboy (talk) 09:57, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Non-notable veg persons
On the WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism homepage there are a lot of non-notable article suggestions. For example L. Keith Akers has no reliable sources. His page on Wikipedia is never going to be created. We need to keep all article suggestions realistic. They must have reliable sources. Aysha Akhtar has reliable sources and I will create her article but many of the others are not notable according to Wikipedia guidelines. I believe that all article suggestions without reliable sources should be removed. The same with "Plant-based food months", nobody is ever going to create all those articles. We can only create articles with good sourcing. Psychologist Guy (talk) 11:22, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Support I joined the project a couple weeks ago and was going through the project's suggestions, and observed this exact problem. Such suggestions do not merit any consideration, since there are not enough reliable sources to bolster their creation. No one is ever going to pick up the task to create their articles. Only articles for those persons/subjects/titles which have significant reliable sources must be requested. Dissoxciate (talk) 14:39, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * About 90% or more of the suggestions have come from MaynardClark who also wrote many of the sections on the home-page. I think most of these sections are off-mission. Interestingly since MaynardClark joined this WikiProject he has not created a single article. Obviously there is no requirement to join this WikiProject and create articles but I think it is a bit unfair that he has put hundreds of article requests on the home-page when he has no interest himself in creating any of them. We are not talking about a few, we are talking about hundreds here. I have not seen this on any other WikiProject. It looks like some kind of advertisement or promotion.
 * Like I said before, nobody is going to create a Wikipedia article for every Plant-based food month. Most of these are not "plant-based", for example "National Chili Month" has nothing to do with veganism or vegetarianism. I understand off-site MaynardClark has been involved with vegetarianism and veganism education and events for decades and he is very interested in the topic but the home-page for the WikiProject seems to have become a soapbox for his personal interests and promotion or people he has met. I think much of it should be removed if the suggestions are unrealistic and not supported by any sources. I don't want to get on the wrong side of anyone here, I respect MaynardClark and his interest in the subject but we need to keep the aims of the WikiProject realistic. The entire "open tasks" section that he added also appears off-mission. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:22, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Sam Ryder (singer) listed at Requested moves
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