Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 14

Streets of Rage
For the love of everything that is good, would someone with better skills than me have a look at the Streets of Rage article? I signed up just to correct some of the basic spelling errors and run on sentences, but it stills looks as if it was written by a seven year old. I also don't know much of the game myself, so I didn't want to do anything to drastic. Blah3000 20:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Streets of Rage would be a brilliant case for the Weekly collaboration. Those left justified screenshots will be first against the wall when the revolution comes. It's an infuriating article because all of the information is there it's just so hard to read, to paraphrase Eric Morecambe "It's playing all the right notes... but not necessarily in the right order." - X201 21:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Sega hybrid name
There has been a proposed move to move Sega CD to Sega Mega-CD/Sega CD, and the issue of the rather awkward hybrid name has been brought up again. After a protracted war on the Talk:Sega Mega Drive page, the article was finally moved to Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis. I wanted to bring the issue here because it shouldn't exist - we should pick one name and stick with it. How awkward is it to type Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis and having to pipe that link in? I would rather do Sega Genesis so I would only have to write it out half the time. Same with the Sega CD. Hbdragon88 07:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That is pretty ridiculous. Unless I missed it, though, no one actually cited hard numbers to determine which "system" was actually more popular worldwide (though I strongly suspect it was Mega Drive). Not that I want to open up another can of worms, but was this ever taken to RfC or other arbitration? --SevereTireDamage 11:34, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well yeah, the Google test has problems. And while the Mega Drive probably is more popular - as it was the name in all territories except the U.S. - I think the "Genesis" defenders made a persusasive argument, saying that just naming it the Mega Drive would confuse U.S. readers.  This resembles the gasoline title war, except that it appears that that war was solved without RFC or Arbcom involvement (but I'm not sure). Hbdragon88 16:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Is this done anywhere else on Wikipedia? Doubt it; just wondering.  As someone from the US I'd say Genesis (use that as the article name), but I guess that would maybe confuse some European readers.  Of course, it's just as easy to do what most articles do in the lead: "System (Alternate name in Europe) is..." -- gakon5 20:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No Genesis is the alternative name, not Mega Drive. The title should be Mega Drive as it is known around the world. Genises should redirect to it. Owwmykneecap 20:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * He's right. Only in America is the Mega Drive known as the Genesis much like the NES is known as the Famicom only in Japan. guitarhero777777 02:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Super Metroid
I'm making a strong effort to greatly improve the Super Metroid article and I wondered if anyone might be interested in helping. I've done a lot of work on it in the past, but it had become very jumbled up and full of stuff that was totally off-topic both for the article itself and for Wikipedia. It breaks my heart to see this article with a B classification; my goal is for it to be in tip-top shape.--QuasarTE 09:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Resident Evil
There is discussion ongoing at Talk:Resident Evil about the role of dab pages when disambiguating between a game and the series named after it. A third opinion would be appreciated. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:04, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Bulbasaur
Bulbasaur is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 14:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * What?! It's been what, two days since it appeared on the front page? Hbdragon88 16:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * True, although it's been featured for at least a month or two now, right? It's succesful, drawn-out 3rd nom was made back in February, so it was a bit of a delay.  Which also means that's several months worth of change to the article.  It's had a rough life it has.  Three FACs, two peer reviews, and now it might end up on the chopping block if it doesn't pass it's Review.  Heck, if it doesn't pass it's review, it seems like a guarenteed removal, considering the whole community worth of Pokemon haters out there. -- gakon5

Wario
Wario has been nominated at FAR, here. Please leave comments. H ig hway Return to Oz... 18:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

An online peer-reviewed ludology journal
People here might want to check out gamestudies.org, which appears to be a peer-reviewed scholarly game journal. Browsing a bit, I was able to find articles on The Sims, Grand Theft Auto, Halo: Combat Evolved, Lara Croft, Counter-Strike, and others. The CS one is particularly interesting in that it covers behaviors during multiplayer — the type of stuff that traditionally has not been well-sourced or has been outright deemed unverifiable here on Wikipedia. There's a lot of interesting material to use. — TKD::Talk 00:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Interesting link, thanks for posting it. --SevereTireDamage 07:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Who wants to work with me to make RuneScape a good article?
Having recently joined the Computer and Video Games WikiProject, and as a member of the Good articles WikiProject, I have a goal of making RuneScape a Good article.

The RuneScape article has previously failed a Featured Article nomination and failed a Good Article nomination. I sent it for Peer Review, raising several concerns, but received no significant responses.

If you wish to collaborate with me to make RuneScape a good article, please read and reply on RuneScape's talk page. Thanks.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 06:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Working on the AdventureQuest article.
Having recently joined the Computer and video games WikiProject, my first task will be to work on the AdventureQuest article.

The article desperately needs a rewrite and cleanup. Although I will help with that, one of my main tasks will be to provide in-game screenshots, as well as to play the game to check facts provided (in some cases, in-game screenshots may be used as proof of concept).

However, as a level 58 non-Guardian, I stopped playing AdventureQuest several months ago due to the Guardian Only Login feature. I recently tried to log in, and discovered a new survey which non-Guardians could take in order to gain unlimited login access for 24 hours. This allows me to log in to play the game, take in-game screenshots and fact-check.

Therefore, I need someone to give me the green light, before I take the survey and log in. In addition, I hope you can offer me advice (for example, style) I should bear in mind when making my very major edit(s) to the article, which may take several hours. I will probably do this next weekend, possibly earlier depending on my real-life situation.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 09:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Started a Death, Jr. 2: Root of Evil article
I just joined the Project and Wikipedia. This project convinced me that it was time to join Wikipedia to start contributing.

The game is still under development, so not much is known. I could put in some screenshots, but there is no cover art for the infobox. All the information was from Gamespot.

Some questions Re: Browser-based games
I have an interesting question for the brains trust here.I'm working on an article, Nexus War, which is a browser-based MMORPG. While there's some useful information on the project page regarding computer and video games, there doesn't seem to be a lot of useful information for this style of game.

So, I'd like to ask people here - how should I be going about structuring an article on something like this? I suspect that the article could be made into a very good article, but I'm not sure what aspects of a browser-based game are worth discussing. Obviously there's Gameplay and Story, but I'm not sure how much of Story should be in the teaser, and whether I should be splitting Gameplay into sub-headings, and if so what these sub-headings should be.

Can anyone give me any ideas as to where I should be going with this article? -- Kirby1024 05:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I looked at the page, and I would suggest giving up on adding to it. It doesn't seem that notable, and will probably get deleted. RobJ1981 05:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Even if this article gets deleted, this genre of games has a few noteworthies (Urban Dead being the major one), so even some general guidelines on this sort of genre would be nice. -- Kirby1024 05:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps Wikipedia should develop guidelines or official policy regarding browser-based adventure games? I'm having trouble applying criteria for other types to this genre; as browser-based games don't seem to get much press coverage, most of the useful information I've found in my research is from forums, blogs, fansites, the game site, and gameplay itself, which seem to be denigrated as reputable sources of information. This doesn't quite make sense to me, especially the last two; even though the game site isn't an independent source, not using it as a source at all seems to me like reviewing a book based on others' reviews rather than reading the book. B7T 15:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. This was one reason why Neopets and RuneScape failed both Featured Article and Good Article - referencing. I think the Verifiability policy is ridiculous and harms this genre of articles. I have plans to improve RuneScape to Good Article status, and to clean up AdventureQuest. I've posted here seeking the collaboration of this WikiProject, but I've received no responses so far - which defeats my purpose of joining the WikiProject in the first place. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 16:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Verifiability is, generally speaking, non-negotiable; That's what makes it policy and not a mere guideline. It's why WP:WEB and WP:MEME look the way they do, despite numerous attempts to change that. Nifboy 16:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Regarding verifiability, if you use my book analogy (and as far as I'm concerned it's a perfectly valid analogy, since adventure games and books can both be stories), WP:NOR and WP:RS seem counterintuitive, don't they? B7T 19:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

StarCraft storyline and its child pages
We currently have no less than 18 pages describing (I can't even call it "summarizing") the story of StarCraft (all linked from StarCraft storyline), and that's not counting character, race, and other plot summary articles. This is absolutely excessive for one game.

So what do we do about it? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ouch. It looks a novel adaption of Starcraft, practically. Not knowing anything about Starcraft, admittedly, I don't see how the main storyline page is lacking in sufficient detail. There also seems to be some original research problems. A gentle approach would to give editors some time to consolidate any needed context into the main storyline page before nominating the auxiliary pages for deletion, but the need for consolidation seems to be minimal. I agree that, one way or another, though, the auxiliary articles should go. — TKD::Talk 06:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Normally I'm against massive AfDs, but considering that even the Final Fantasy games don't have this much exposition on their fictional world, it's pretty hard to argue that all of these belong in the Wikipedia. --SevereTireDamage 07:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You should see the number of subpages RuneScape has. Someone tried to AfD all of them. However, the AfD failed. I think it should be trimmed to about 5 sections. Does anyone wish to collaborate with me to make RuneScape a good article (please read sections I posted above)? --J.L.W.S. The Special One 06:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to say that I read most of the starcraft pages and I loved it. Nevertheless there may be reason to consolodate some of it. Jon513 19:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Formal tone
The article Walt Disney World Quest: Magical Racing Tour has been tagged. It was mainly written by myself and I was wondering what exactly is right and wrong. If anyone could correct the article that would be very much appreciated. I do not understand how this is poor writing. If you could put up a paragraph and then correct it for me on here that would be great. Thanks. -- Thorpe | talk 11:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "For whatever reason" is what you'd call informal, and the use of the second person ("you") is a no-go. That's all I can really see. -- gakon5 15:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

FAC
I added a featured article candidates section right below the featured articles section. Thought that those articles deserved some recognition, and it's not too hard to keep on top of. --PresN 17:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

CVGProj tag
Current Status - 1970-1988, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2008, and Sega Genesis confirmed as done.

I just added the cvgproj to around 200 articles, so everything that was in the "Games in 2003" catagory is tagged. This is just to remind people about the message on the top of this page- tag your pages' talk pages! --PresN 19:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow, I'm bored. All articles in "Games in 1980" through "Games in 1983" are tagged.
 * I've been tagging games whenever I have time. Fun, isn't it? ;) RandyWang ( raves/review me! ) 21:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Everything in List of Sega Mega Drive/Sega Genesis games is tagged and rated. Nifboy 02:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Rated too? Wow.  How do you go about rating them?  Like, physically making the box show the rating?  I should start doing that as well. --PresN 16:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * NM, I see how you did it. It's just cvgproj|class=Stub instead of cvgproj, if it's a stub.  --PresN 16:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Does this mean anyone can rate them? I thought you had to be on the Wikipedia 1.0 team or something like that. --SevereTireDamage 16:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Err, anyone? --SevereTireDamage 04:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyone. And please do, I can't keep the unrated article count below 5k by myself. Nifboy 06:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

373 pages and 142 edits later, all of 2002 is done now. I just tagged them, not rated, as I'm not sure about whther I can or not, per above. I think that anyone can rate them, but frankly, I dont' care, it would take way too long to do this if I actually had to read the articles I'm tagging. As a side note, it's weird which ones are already tagged and which ones aren't- some random disney game will be, but Warcraft 3 wasn't. --PresN 18:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 174 edits, 2001 is done. --PresN 19:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I dug into the archives (number ten to be exact) and added the already complete years of old from there, just to let people know what other years are already done. -- gakon5 00:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

WPCVG/New
I have created a new page, WikiProject Computer and video games/New article announcements, where people can announce their new articles related to video games. I'm not great at writing articles from scratch, but like fixing up stubby articles, so I thought this kind of page would be nice to have. I've added a link to the page on the WikiProject page, hope that's ok. Ajaxfan 19:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I just noticed that there's a WikiProject Computer and video games/Noticeboard. It's not really clear what the purpose of that page is to me, and it doesn't seem to be used much. Perhaps it should just be a redirect? Ajaxfan 20:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It can be used to call any sort of attention to an article, but generally it's been used to call for third opinions to disputes, since expansion pushes for GA/FA go to CVG Peer Review, the weekly collab and the also inactive CVGI. I cleaned it out recently, though it still doesn't get much attention, not much more than a posting a month. It's another case of things that generally get brought to this talk page instead. --SevereTireDamage 20:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Color of GameBoy game screenshots?
Should there be a standard for the color of GameBoy game screenshots displayed in articles? Although emulators are default black and white, most people probably are more familiar with the yellow-green monochrome colors, and the BGB emulator allows for a setup like this. The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening shows the yellow-green setup, while Final Fantasy Legend shows black and white. Which is more ideal? Personally, I prefer yellow-green. --Tristam 04:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's a standard for this, but I'll bet either way is fine; whatever the screenshot comes in (in the case of website-retreived ones) is what you get I guess. -- gakon5 06:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Project box
I noticed that the box over to the side there was pretty out of date, so I fixed it somewhat. The Peer Review and Cleanup sections are now up to date. --PresN 17:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * SevereTireDamage and I have cleaned up the box. I removed everything placed in there before June and added a peer review, he threw in some random create requests, so that they might have a higher chance of being made, and killed the AvP merge request that has been there since the box was created, back in December.  --PresN 20:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Good Articles
I added a good article section. For no other reason than I wanted to, frankly. That, and I thought that it would be good to showcase some of the good articles, get people to try to push them to FA. --PresN 20:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And added featured lists, since i realized that there are two of them, that weren't ont he page to start with. --PresN 20:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If we're going to keep track of all the featured articles and good articles on the WikiProject page, then isn't having a seperate article rather redundant? Perhaps a better idea would be to do with WikiProject Computer and video games/Deletion, which is cloned on the WikiProject page. Makes more sense IMO. Ajaxfan 20:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok well I went ahead and did it.... thoughts? Ajaxfan 21:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I support it.  --PresN 21:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I mucked with the formating a bit. If you hate it, feel free to change it around, of course. --PresN 21:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Another change I made is I changed the letters in the Requests articles so that they're not headers any more. This way the table of contents on the WikiProject page isn't clogged up as much. If there was an important reason to have them the way they were before, sorry for mucking it up :) Ajaxfan 21:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've also cloned WikiProject Computer and video games/New article announcements on the project page. Ajaxfan 22:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh lord...User:Timkovski created about 20 new vg related pages. I have to leave, so i can't update the list right now, but if someone would add everything he created, found here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Timkovski, that'd be great.  Also, they need tagged, and de-stubified, but I'll tag them later.  --PresN 23:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ugh, I've left him a note on his talk page, hopefully he'll do it himself, haven't got time for that myself either. Ajaxfan 23:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I could do it.Noah A. 23:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, All of Timkovski's articles are logged under the New articles page.Noah A. 00:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Nice :) Ajaxfan 00:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Could you guys not sig your entries on the page? It clutters it up. --SevereTireDamage 22:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed it before I saw this, and columned it. --PresN 16:33, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

WikiProjects
I updated the wikiprojects list on the main page, and alphabatized it. Information based off of here. Comments? Feel like I included something I shouldn't have? Or missed something? --PresN 22:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I think WikiProject Arcade games used to be listed, but was removed due to inactivity. No point sending new users to inactive WikiProjects. Ajaxfan 22:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

gothic series
The pages for Gothic II and 3 link to the article for Gothic I, as if it was an article for the series. yet it's almost only about Gothic I - and even that article is more a stub than anything else. Most of the article is the Story - and even there only a few sentences are about the actual story. The major part is pre-game story and seems to be copied from the manual. So I'll try to form it into a proper article, creating articles for Gothic II and 3 and the series. I'm not really sure in which order that would be done best (suggestions?). If anyone is also interested in working on this, I'll be glad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mausz (talk • contribs)


 * I don't see a problem with taking the redirects to Gothic (computer game) (proper link) and creating 2 new stubs for the sequels (Gothic II and Gothic III). But right now there's probably too much information about the story, the gameplay information should be split off into its own section, and the Infobox should be added (see Infobox VG). For the sequel stubs I would start with the Infoboxes and work from there. I suggest cleaning up the original article, first. --SevereTireDamage 04:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do rate articles
A more lengthy explanation of the sidetrack on the cvgproj thing: The article rating is part of the project template; ergo, it is up to the project to determine quality and notability within gaming, not the 1.0 team (never mind that there are no barriers to membership in either). Our only "formal" interaction with them would be if we decide to nominate a set of CVG articles for the upcoming Version 0.5. Nifboy 06:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I've been wondering about this for a while but forgot to ask. --SevereTireDamage 16:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

No Oddyssey 2 Article?
I couldn't find an article for the Oddyssey 2 video game system. (I think I spelled it right. If not, just search Yahoo for "KC Munchkin", which was a popular game for the system.)

I used to have the Oddyssey system as a kid. It had a alphabetic keyboard on it, unlike the other game systems. The games for it were pretty cool and it was a step up from Intellivision. But it never caught on like Intellivision or Atari systems did.

Anyone remember the Oddyssey system? My parents may still have it, if they haven't thrown it out. I could get a pic if they have it. Monkeybreath 10:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe someone could create a stub for the Oddyssey 2 system? Monkeybreath 10:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * See Magnavox Odyssey² ˉˉanetode╦╩ 10:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I always remember how to spell Odyssey because Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee is NOT IT in almost every way imaginable. :P -- Nifboy 16:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

New Infobox VG
Hi arcade game people - I've spent a lot of time and effort adding scores of arcade game entries, and now I see all my articles are tagged with the 'Infobox CVG' conversion. While I understand the need to improve the quality of infobox information, what about the effort involved to correct existing entries? Not to mention the herculean effort it is going to take to add new entries with this expanded infobox. It is not exactly inspiring when a lot of work has to be re-done. Sandman30s 14:35, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, partially my fault- if it came out in '81-'83, I tagged it as part of the cvg project, and obviously someone went and boxed it all. Looking around, there's an  Arcade Games Project on the main page as a child project of this- but if you search a bit, you get here, which says that all of the arcade infoboxes are being converted to cvg infoboxes, like that are on Astro Fantasia for instance.  I'm not sure that I understand your problem- is there information that you had on the page that is removed by the infobox?  If so, if you'd be so kind as to say what it is and what pages you did, I'll go through today and fix it all for you.  As per the herculean effort to add entries, it looks like you just put in this:

{| style="background: transparent; border: none;"


 * and anything that you don't know, just leave blank. None of the fields are required.  --PresN 16:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * See the main page, near the bottom in "infoboxes" for more information. --PresN 16:38, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Sandman, I wish you were around for this discussion (and here) a few weeks ago. I was the only dissenting voice at the time. PresN, what he means by Herculean effort is that there are almost 800 articles in Category:Articles partially converted to Infobox CVG now, not to mention that the display field got broken for all of those articles. Also, you're supposed to subst the original Arcade Infobox, not just replace it with CVG - if you look at the current Arcade template source you'll see why. Anyway, as said in those topics, the main reason this was done was because the Arcade Wikiproject is pretty much dead and CVG is taking over those articles. --SevereTireDamage 16:57, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 800? (Cry).  I'll take a look at them, see if there's some process I can come up with the fix them.  -PresN 17:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Dumb question: How do I remove the catagory from the page? I was messing with 18_Wheeler:_American_Pro_Trucker, and it should be fine, but i can't figure out how to remove it from the catagory. --PresN 17:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ohh.... Never mind. Silly me, I wasn't doing it right. --PresN 17:38, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I've gotten 40 done, 627 left to go. --PresN 17:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * To cut a long story short, my opinion is that the arcade game infobox should have its own, and the CVG one is fine for computer games. There is a lot of redundant/unnecessary information in the CVG box for arcade games. A yardstick for arcade information is in the history of MAME itself, or on mameworld.net. The previous arcade infobox was just perfect for my initial inspiration of getting all the missing arcade games from MAME into wikipedia. Now, frankly, I feel overwhelmed by the new box and don't feel like adding thousands of games. Anyway, thanks to those who still have the energy to fix existing entries. Sandman30s 18:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Gaming clans
What is the project's standing on inclusion of gaming clans in game articles?

This came up about a month or so back in the article for Rome: Total War, and may be about to occur again in Star Wars: Empire at War. I have used the precedent that they aren't mentioned in other articles to support removing mention. In the R:TW incident, the consensus was that clans shouldn't be mentioned.

But I thought I'd ask the project here so that if it comes up again in the future (or continues with SW:EAW), I would at least have a solid footing for or against inclusion.

Cheers --DarthBinky 18:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think that gaming clans have any business in articles. --PresN 19:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, but I wanted to make sure that there's a consensus on it, and maybe a mention made in the guidelines/policy. --DarthBinky 20:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You can probably cite WP:BIO as rationale. Most clans (your Frag Dolls notwithstanding) won't have any sort of notable coverage in print or the gaming community. Most articles on individual gamers have a hard enough time standing scrutiny. --SevereTireDamage 22:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Just to be clear, I'm talking about mentioning clans within articles about games, not articles about clans. For example, the articles for Star Wars: Empire at War and Star Wars: Republic Commando each had sections listing a few gaming clans (each with the unverifiable title "Major Clans"), and I removed them from each.  The SW:EAW one has been re-added a couple times since, but the people re-adding it are not responding to my rationale listed in the talk.


 * I guess I'm just looking to make sure I'm doing things right just in case this becomes a problem (like I said, there was a problem with clans over on the article for Rome: Total War). Thanks for the comments. --DarthBinky 23:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Wrong links at game list pages
Today, I've found several links to wrong pages at the list pages for systems (List of Gamecube games, for example). Example: someone put the link as Catwoman, when it should be for Catwoman video game. I've went through some lists partially, but not completely. Anyone care to help? You basically just need to check games that are based on a movie, TV show, comic book character and so on. RobJ1981 12:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Strike out arcade games?!
Well, I was disappointed that PresN listed my WikiProject:Arcade games as inactive, but I couldn't really contest it. While I am still actively writing articles for arcade games, no big issues have come up lately, so, yeah it looks dead, though I don't think the participants have abandoned it. But then NeonMerlin came along and actually striked out the project! Is this really necessary? The project is still there and free to join, striking it out seems to indicate and is gone or going away. Can't we leave it with the inactive tag? &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 15:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed it to almost inactive, I suppose if there are still people out there interested in it, you can't really call it dead, just...in a coma. --PresN 16:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested Articles
The requested article section needs some cleanup, I think. It currently has 132 articles in the list, and no one is going to go out of their way to create something in the middle of a list that takes up more than a screen, with 2 columns. Additionally, last night I took Warring Factions off the list, just an hour after it was created. It was allready speedy-tagged, and was deleted within the hour. A lot of the articles on the list are like that. I propose that we name articles that are on the list, but that don't deserve an article of their own. If no one disagrees, they can be taken off a little later. --PresN 16:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, give a reason.
 * -Alfador, how to unlock him in Chrono Trigger - it's about how to get the cat to show up in the ending scene of Chrono Trigger. CT is going towards FA status just fine without this peice of cruft, and it doesn't need an article.
 * -guitar.wav - Huh? a .wav file? Wtf?
 * -Infraworld A game that was in developement for the Sony PS3 by Quantic Dream. It has since been cancelled, due to an inability to get a publisher to buy into the bizarre concept - which is completely unknown to the public. Screenshots, videos and even concept art and articles are rare to nonexistent. - the self description says it all.
 * -Knuckles in China Land - A japanese-teaching game, that you can't download anymore. NN!
 * -SpellForce series - Notable, but considering that Spellforce could cover it, and is a stub to start with, doesn't need a seperate article.
 * - Thy Dungeonman - A game that was playable in one episode of homestar runner. NN.
 * This is just a few to start with. Remember, we're nominating articles that, if created, would be speedy deleted anyway/put in AfD and deleted.  The list is just too long.  --PresN 16:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thy Dungeonman I'm on the fence on, but the rest I agree with removing the rest. Also, note this AfD for Superfluous game lists. --SevereTireDamage 20:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, List of Pac-man games coming off then. Anything that's been AfD'd before is automatic withdrawal.  --PresN 20:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Why are you taking off List of Pac-Man games? There is certainly more than enough Pac-Man to fill a list, and it's notable.  I didn't suggest the page or anything, but if it weren't for the success of Pac-Man...many games probably wouldn't even exist now. RobJ1981 23:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've added some wording that directs people to provide a url with information regarding what they are requesting. I think we need to keep a certain standard regarding requests. A url with information, or at least a description, which would be a pointer for those who would actually create the article. I suggest that we prune the list and remove any titles that don't provide any secondary information. Ajaxfan 00:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I actually agree that List of Pac-Man games could be useful, but the problem is that it was AfD'd- which means it can be speedy deleted if brought back similar to what it was. Which is, if someone makes a stub just to make the article, it's no good. If you want to turn it into a real list, then great, but otherwise... --PresN 14:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and nominate some deletions, people! 5 out of 132 isn't going to help. --PresN 14:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Other ones I'm nominating- GUND (stuffed animal company) (right)- Muling (carrying around items to transfer to another character- can only be a dicdef)- Dimenxian (Algebra-teaching edutainment, NN)- Project Ashcroft (I can't even find out what this is supposed to be)- IQ Supli (cheap japanese standalone "Iq raising" game thing, nn)- Angel Arena (WC3 mod, there's only about 1000 of those) Atlamillia (an important part of the start class Dark Cloud game which wouldn't need it's own article even if dark cloud was GA class)- China (Command & Conquer: Generals) (WP:NOT a game guide)- Eskiv (Free online flash game.  Only about 10 million of those)- Gravoor (Online flash game series at Newgrounds. Re:10 million)- Hot Potato! (Way too many things called this to know what they're talking about w/o discription)- Mang (I'll take it off if anyone can find what it is- I can't)- No End Soon (A rumored game for the Wii, codename. Crystal ball.)- Skibi's castle TD (Another WC3 mod)- Sunder: Land of Divide (A rumored game from back in January, never showed up)- Xpert Eleven (Free online football management game, nn).

I didn't list anything that was published for any console or computer system- they may still be non-notable, but I'm not going to be a jerk about it, if it's a real game.

I took off Operation: Logic Bomb- it's existed for a while at Operation Logic Bomb, and Pulse Man, exists at Pulseman.

I plan on deleting everything listed here on monday, unless anyone raises an objection to it. --PresN 19:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC) (Edit- Added a bunch of names) --PresN 19:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean to imply that a List of Pac-Man games article should be deleted on sight, however, it should be removed from the Request page so someone doesn't casually create it due to the AfD mess. There are several good "List of games" articles, like List of Final Fantasy games and List of Gradius titles, the key being more horizontal coverage and not just a bullet list. Having worked a lot on Pac-Man, I may even take up the task myself later if I can find a decent source.


 * As for the others, I say you can delete on sight most of the entries that aren't from a franchise nor have an informational external link. (Andrew Garye? Who? Eggplant Wizard obviously doesn't need its own article.) But to be honest, it seems most of the things on this list stay red forever. Most of the time we're fighting off unnotable stubs. --SevereTireDamage 22:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I completely agree about the list of pac-man games thing, I think an good list would be a nice thing. But it will just be a mess if someone creates a stub to fulfill a request.  --PresN 18:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment on Deletion Archive listings
I'd be grateful if someone could comment on the standard format I proposed here a while ago, for listing archived AfD debates relating to the WikiProject. I've received no replies since posting the question originally, but I'm guessing that has something to do with the fact that the page is a very low-traffic one to begin with.

Thanks! RandyWang ( raves/review me! ) 07:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Adding an item to the style page
On the style section, I'm a adding note about treating fiction as fact. Many game articles involving story elements are really bad about this.(I've been guilty of it myself in the past as well.) Albert Wesker is just one recent example I've noticed that's really bad about this sort of thing.--Mitaphane talk 17:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Need help on this article
List of Arm Wrestling games by genre. It's a page for an Arm Wrestling (arcade game). It's no list at all. I did a little checking, and it's also called Arm Wrestling arcade game: so the whole list thing is a redirect I believe. So could someone delete the list redirect? It's no list, and I don't see why a redirect is for it. RobJ1981 19:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You've got a good point there. Can you call a list with one item in it a list? (The Wiktionary people can have a semantics debate over that one). I agree with the removal of the re-direct, in fact I think the whole page should go.X201 19:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've prodded the page; it should be deleted within a week or so. RandyWang ( raves/review me! ) 03:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * madea bunch of very idiosyncratic lists like that. I thought I had cleaned them all up, but I guess not. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There are always more. ;) RandyWang ( chat me up/fix me up ) 21:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Vandals lurking...
Somebody vandalized the Arcade system board page. I have restored it. Who knows what else was deleted? Please can a sysop investigate? Sandman30s 19:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * According to the history, you reverted everything to the way it was. --PresN 20:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And that's the only thing that that IP has edited. --PresN 20:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC) (spoilers: not a sysop :-P)
 * Thanks, the 'List of Arcade system boards' was deleted, as well as categories. Anyway, I am going to clean up this page and later on add more arcade game entries. Sandman30s 21:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

SourceForge games?
this AfD got me curious, and so I started searching for games on SourceForge that had articles on Wikipedia; the number appears to be rather large. Given that OSS games get virtually no press (except NetHack), are there any compelling reasons one way or another for these nearly unsourcable games? Nifboy 07:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If they're unsourcable and non-notable, I'd say kill them. The problem is that if the number is "rather large", you're going to inundate AfD.  Maybe nominate them in chunks of say, 5 at a time?  Like, 5 in one nomination.  The AfD process falls apart when a list of 30 articles is nominated at once.  --PresN 18:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say there are quite a few notable ones. Pretty much any source port or other source project is notable as are any games that have gotten rpess coverage.  A lot of them aren't, though. Ace of Sevens 18:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, but according to our current standards of notability, there's little justification to keep them in. The same rationale being used (usually correctly) to delete the many ROM hacks, fangames, Web and Flash games over the last couple of weeks could be used to delete most SourceForge games. --SevereTireDamage 05:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Game icon usage
There is a debate going on at Talk:Dark Castle regarding the allowed use of game icons, from interpreting and WP:FUC. It could set a precedent for icon use in all game articles, please have a look and leave your comments or make the discussion a general one here! Arru 20:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Cover art galleries
I've been working on abolishing galleries of cover art, due to the fact that such galleries flunk WP:FUC, particularly #3 and #8. While I think it would be a good idea to have multiple covers in articles covering multiple games (Pokémon Red and Blue or Metal Gear Solid), I've been seeing articles with a half-dozen or a dozen images of each minor variation of the cover, up to and including both original release and best-seller covers. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Could you give some examples of the pages with bad galleries for reference? As discussed on Wikiproject Comics, there's always the potential for image galleries to go bad, however, there were several good examples cited there that prove with restraint and commentary it could be worth keeping. For instance, in this case, regional box art can often show the difference between how games are marketed in different territories. But at the same time, we don't necessarily need to see a Greatest Hits cover AND the original cover if they're the same art. --SevereTireDamage 05:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This one's screenshots, not cover art, but check out Real-time tactics. Ace of Sevens 05:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Also check out Resident Evil 4. Up until recently, all of the Resident Evil game articles had galleries of a half-dozen to a dozen box images, plus two logos in the infobox. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the RTT article was definitely excessive (no need for two Total War shots, and why put in two shots from games that don't even have their own articles?). There's also not all that much difference between the different shots, it's not very illustrative if they're trying to convey a broad sense of the genre.
 * RE4 has a lot of shots, and the two PC covers are entirely unnecessary because that artwork is already covered on the other two platforms. But at the same time, that's the perfect example of what I was describing above - the US gets the most obvious boring full body shots, the Japanese art had ones that emphasized the faces, and the Europeans got the cooler, more abstract shots. Of course, then the argument would probably arise, "Well, we have the rest of the covers..." I also saw what you did for the Resident Evil (video game) page. Now THIS was pretty damn absurd and it was good to clear it out most of it, but I probably would've compromised a little and chosen one box shot per artwork, especially since that page covered many versions. --SevereTireDamage 06:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If someone wants to write a sourced section or article about how games are marketed in different territories, go for it. Don't leave a gallery of unfairly-used fair-use images laying around until you write it, though. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, you don't need to go into original research opinion and speculation (as I did in the above comment) to see value in showing various covers. For a comprehensive, encyclopedic overview of a video game the artwork used for selling it in different markets could be included for obvious, self-evident or bland commentary about the differences. OTOH, having multiple images of the same cover art with a different system or regional stripe on the side is pointless, and I'm not arguing for that. --SevereTireDamage 22:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

this is a prime example of what ruins this site....of course the regional variations should be shown...and why is it always the us versions which remain, why cant you leave things be???Owwmykneecap 15:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with this, but I'm going to quote Ryu Kaze here: "We're using the most recognized cover boxart for an English audience — which is what is supposed to be done." In most cases, that's the US one. If there's something interesting or unique about, say, the European one, than that can be used. But a table of 12 box covers serves no purpose. --PresN 16:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Ratings
Hey I have an article that I wanted to put in the CVG Peer Review (here), but it doesn't have a rating yet. Should I wait for the rating, or should I just put in on the review board? I don't know much about the reviewing process as a whole, so any help would be nice. --Clyde Miller 14:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There's nothign official about most of the ratings, except for GA and FA, so just go ahead and put it up for peer review- PR is just asking people to comment on it, there's not really anything official obout it either, it's just helpful. I'll go ahead and rate the article anyway.  --PresN 16:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone change the rating in the CVG template box on an article's own talk page? Specifically, I upgraded the Klingon Academy page just after the template was added and it looks like a B-Class article to me now. Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I'm still not sure just how much autonomy one has in relation to an ongoing WikiProject. --J. Spanky 16:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. Anyone. Nifboy 17:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about "Authority" or anything of the sort; anyone can do pretty much anything to contribute to this WikiProject. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of anything that's off-limits, except to make major changes without community support. RandyWang ( chat me up/fix me up ) 21:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There's always vandalism. Or taunting Happy Fun Ball. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Lists in computer and video games articles
User:Deckiller and I are of differing opinions about the use of lists in Final Fantasy (video game). I expanded the gameplay section to this and included a number of lists. I'm aware of WP:NOT and figured that some of the information might be irrelevant or not of encyclopedic interest, and said so in my comment. Deckiller and I had a brief discussion on our talk pages (here and here), and my original text has been modified (and greatly improved!) thanks to him.

However, there's one thing which I'd like to ask the project at large. In a recent comment, Deckiller stated, "bulleted lists are not acceptable in featured articles, see other gaming featured articles" and replaced a bulleted list of player character classes with a prose list. (Of course, the article in question isn't a featured article, but we'd all like it to be that good.) We agree that there are certain lists that are unacceptable, but as far as I can tell there are plenty of gaming featured articles which do have bulleted lists. Not counting lists under "See Also", "Trivia", and so on, I found:


 * BZFlag (8 bulleted lists, 1 table)
 * Donkey Kong (arcade game) (1 bulleted list)
 * Doom (1 bulleted list)
 * Katamari Damacy (1 bulleted list, 1 non-bulleted list (of characters))
 * The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (1 bulleted list)
 * The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (1 bulleted list)
 * Perfect Dark (2 bulleted lists, one of which is a sidebar)
 * Super Mario 64 (3 bulleted lists, 1 non-bulleted list (under "Tasks, aids, and obstacles"))
 * StarCraft (3 bulleted lists)

These tend to be lists of gameplay features or objects (areas, items, enemies, etc.). The next most common type of list seems to be a list of voice actors.

My own feeling is that some data is both relevant and best presented as a bulleted list, but I realize that the project may have come to some other consensus. I looked but couldn't find anything in the project pages. Did I miss something? Am I making an obvious mistake? Thanks in advance. 141.211.63.35 17:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The main difference, I think, is in the amount of prose that goes into the lists; In most of the FAs cited (except BZFlag, which is FARC material) each bullet is a full sentence or more, whereas "mere" lists, which provide no context or explanation, are the ones being argued against. Nifboy 20:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I basically think that bullets are fine if it's not just things like a list of level names with nothing else. Like, in Kirby's Dream Land 3 (which I've been working on), I have four lists, one of which is in table form.  The other three are bulleted lists, but each bullet has several sentances to it, so there's plenty of substance in each entry.  If you want a good example of bad lists, try this old revision of Star Wars: Battlefront II.  I consider that a bad case of list overload. -- gakon5 13:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

External link templates
I've added a section for the external links templates. I'll be adding a section for image tags later. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 00:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Excellent, thank you. These will most definitely come in handy. RandyWang ( chat me up/fix me up ) 09:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Deletions as Promised
I may or may not have deleted 70 out of the 130 new article requests...no, I did, never mind. I may or may not feel bad about it...no, never mind again. I'll whack some more later, too. Please put descriptions on your requests, people. And don't ask for articles on WC3 mods! --PresN 16:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Final tally- out of the 132 that were there last week, there are 50 left. --PresN 22:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Computer and Video Game stub sorting
I could use some help here:.

There is many articles listed, many of which could easily be sorted into a subcategory. I went through some, and could use some help with the rest. RobJ1981 20:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Are there any criteria that need to be stuck to, apart from the obvious one of "put it in the right place"? - X201 22:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * For example: if it's an action game, use an action game stub. There is subcategory stubs for many things (not all though). So if there is none, just leave the cvg stub. In the category page (which is the link above), there is a list of subcategories...so it should be pretty simple. I just asked for help, because there is alot of pages of things that aren't in categories yet, and I really don't want to be the only one doing it. I hope this helped. RobJ1981 23:00, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Is there a policy on the stub-sorting in regards to multiple categories? I mean situations where you're not sure if a game should go in adventure vs. rpg (see: Fushigi no Dungeon, a console roguelike) or beat 'em up vs. platformer, a Poke-stub that's also an RPG-stub, etc. Are you allowed to put pages in multiple stub cats? --SevereTireDamage 23:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Not that I know of. Multiple stubs can be used, I've seen it and done it myself with no problem. I suggest adding to the cvg stub if possible, and let that be the only stub if you can. But if it's something like a Pac-Man game, it should have platform stub and Namco stub.RobJ1981 23:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Ran into a weird problem regarding 3do-cvg-stub when I looked at Who Shot Johnny Rock?. I'm a little confused on the syntax, so I thought I'd let someone here try to figure it out. Currently there doesn't seem to be an actual Category for 3DO stubs (I guess, stubs related the company or system, since there aren't other hardware platform-specific stub cats, like NES stubs), so it automatically adds the entries into the default cvg-stub cat. --SevereTireDamage 23:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well if the stub doesn't actually exist, revert it back to cvg stub. RobJ1981 00:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I went ahead and placed all of those articles in specific stub categories, so the template is no longer used. --SevereTireDamage 00:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * After a bit of sorting, the list of regular cvg-stub's are down to 380. I'm hoping in a few days, it's less. RobJ1981 16:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I got through many of them last night, but it brought another problem to my attention. There probably should be some kind of cvg-design-stub, as many of the stubs (like top-down perspective, attract mode, room-over-room, synthesizer programmer, etc.) relates to Category:Computer game design terminology and concepts. (As an aside, that should probably be renamed "Computer and video game design" to stick to our naming conventions.) Also, I don't have a clue what to do with Category:Action game stubs. --SevereTireDamage 19:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * A design stub would be helpful. As for action game stubs, I don't know about that one. Many games are classified as action or action/adventure. When I looked through action stubs, I noticed many games based on TV or movies. Maybe a stub for TV and/or movie based games should be created? There is certainly more than enough TV and movie games out there. RobJ1981 19:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * A small update: it's down to 331 (only 2 pages!) now. If there was a sound and/or music stub category for cvg, that would certainly help as well. RobJ1981 20:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Nintendo 64 list
Hi guys, I suggested this on the List of Nintendo 64 games talk page, but haven't had a reply so I'll put it here. I suggest giving the page an overhaul, putting the list in a table format, so as to give more information and to tidy up the page, similar to the style of the virtual boy games list. I've created an example of what it could look like here, User:Timkovski/n64 list. I also propose removing Japanese titles from the list that are released in other territories and so have an english name, e.g. having an entry in the list for both Castlevania and Akumajou Dracula Mokushiroku when they both point to the same article. I would really appreciate suggestions/comments. Thanks. --Timkovski 20:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Makes sense to me. I'd leave in the Japanese/European titles, if applicable, though, they can be consolidated under a single entry, like the Virtual Boy list. --SevereTireDamage 21:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I say that any "list of...games" should be modeled after List of Virtual Boy games, which has ascended to FA status. Hbdragon88 05:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I would prefer trying to limit it to one title per article, with a few exceptions for games without formal English titles (e.g. Doukutsu Monogatari and "Cave Story"). Having two or three titles for most entries would double the size of the pages, and, I imagine, obliterate the navigability thereof. Nifboy 05:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

In-universe detail and fictional object articles
I'm not sure if people are aware of Proto's gamecruft cleanup project, a page I recently became aware of. I know I've been trying to deal with excessive articles about fictional objects, places, and concepts in Pokémon, Metal Gear, fighting games, and other games. I've noticed that there are dozens of articles retelling the plot of StarCraft in explicit detail, an ongoing effort to cover every single character, object, organization, place, and concept in Halo, an article for every possible person/place/group/thing in Deus Ex, a dozen or so articles retelling the story of the Metal Gear games from the POV of each character, and an article for every single fighting game character no matter how minor the character or game.

However, I've run into a lot of opposition trying to reduce plot summary and merge many of these articles, lately in the case of Metal Gear and Deus Ex articles but elsewhere as well.

So, reality check time. Are articles like this generally acceptable? Was I wrong for reducing the amount of plot summary in this and merging it here? Am I the only one who sees any of this as a problem? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes

(The Bread 08:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC))
 * For one, I dislike articles that are only plot summary and/or game manual rehashing. There are some things that really shouldn't have separate articles: one-off characters, level-by-level, blow-by-bloq plot summaries, and the like. I think that the precedent for condensing plot sumaries and minor fictional characters about whom little can be said out-of-universe is clear. In this sense, characters and plot in games really aren't too much different from their counterparts in other media.
 * One argument that I believe has been raised is that the twist with games is that not only are fictional items in these games cultural artifacts in and of themselves, but ludology is beginning to consider the aesthetics of game design as an art form, the player as a performer, and the modern video game as a means of expression rather than just simple goal-oriented entertainment. So there might be a finer line than we think between unencyclopedic game-guide material and encyclopedic study of player behaviors in a particular game. Granted, this amount of this type of material is sparse, so it isn't a silver bullet for every problematic game article in existence, but it is beginning to show up.
 * Now, obviously the scarcity of this material doesn't help a lot of the problematic articles. Someone should write a GA/FA on a particularly notable component of a fictional universe other than a character, so that we can point to it and say, "If you're going to write about something at this level of detail, this is what it should look like." We can cite WP:NOT, WP:WAF, and WP:FICT all we want, but none of those really contain a positive example of a good article of a non-character component of fiction. This would be more productive that just citing policy and guidelines. I think that we should also link to in-universe/strategy wikis and add HTML comments asking game guide info to be contributed there instead of here. — TKD::Talk 08:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, there's Link (Legend of Zelda) (which is a fairly good example) and Bulbasaur (which, no offense to Celestianpower and HighwayCello, is not), plus a number of similar comics articles (Captain Marvel comes immediately to mind), but the problem is that oftentimes comparing such-and-such minor character to those is misleading, because such-and-such minor character won't have the third-party published works that Link or Bulbasaur or Captain Marvel do.


 * These discussions often boil down to...
 * "There just isn't much to say about this subject."
 * "What are you talking about? Look at all that's there!"
 * "Well, that's detailed plot summary/original research/fanon/guesswork/supposition/game guide, and it isn't appropriate for Wikipedia."
 * "WHY ARE YOU DELETING INFORMATION?!?"


 * Most recently, it has been argued that we should keep detailed plot summary because, of all things, WP:IAR and that more information must be good. How do you determine how much plot summary is too much? How can I argue that a character isn't a separate subject from the game in which it appears? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I was aware that we had FA character articles; I was pondering about other fictional elements (and I now remember that we have spoo). And it was sort of my point that editors need to realize that if they can't find enough out-of-universe information, then the utility of a separate article is questionable.
 * My general rule of thumb is that articles on a single element of fiction shouldn't contain more than about 50% plot summary. Plot summary serves to provide context, not be the sole content. — TKD::Talk 09:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Even spoo is on and off FAR/FARC, because half of it is sourced to usenet posts.
 * Personally, I try to stick to the yardstick of about half plot summary; I've just been stymied running into all sorts of character/group/object/place articles that are all plot summary. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I would greatly appreciate some input at Talk:List of recurring Metal Gear characters, particularly over the difference between this standalone article on a supporting character and this list entry on the same character. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Templates, once again
I think it's time to revisit hte issue of templates - again. Wario now has four character templates - SSB, Wario series, Mario series, and Mario series villans. Also, why is the font so small on each of the templates? We really need to come to a standard on this - we need to format them all the same way, but I disagree with the current style of dialing the font so small, especially when there are so amny entries. i mean, whne I look at Talk:Wario, there are also a ton of templates, but since they're all the same size, it's easy to go through them. The inconsistnecy of these templates makes them look really, really bad. Hbdragon88 18:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that they look weirdly incongruous due to their mismatching colors and horizontal sizes. However, right now all menus are hidden by default, so it's not quite as bad as that screenshot makes it look. Making a standard for navboxes will probably be impossible, since the needs of each navbox will be very different. --SevereTireDamage 19:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

cRPG/CRPG
I've started a discussion over at Cultural differences in computer and console role-playing games talk page regarding the wide use of the terms cRPG/CRPG to mean "console RPG"/ "computer RPG". I would like to get a bigger perspective from the CVG community before I take action based on this discussion. --Mitaphane talk 19:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Arcade flyers in Infobox CVG
Regarding the migration from the Arcade infobox to the CVG infobox, there's discussion at Talk:Final Fight regarding using arcade flyers as the infobox box image. Currently, CVG guidelines only state that cover art be used in the CVG infobox, not taking in account games that were released first and/or primarily as arcade titles. I don't believe arcade flyers can be used as a substitute for cover art - arcade flyers are essentially advertising for arcade games. It wouldn't make sense if someone used an advertisement to represent a console game, so it wouldn't make sense to use an arcade flyer for an arcade game.

The logical equivalent of cover art for an arcade title is the arcade's dedicated cabinet, but that wouldn't look so great for an infobox. I suppose we could use box art for one of the ports, just like we do for multiplatform games, but that would discount the fact that some titles were released in arcades first. --Jtalledo (talk) 00:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * New guidelines are currently being worked on, in someone's sandbox. Currently, though, they just reflect the old arcade guidelines.


 * Personally, I'd look for boxart that resembles the arcade art, as a compromise. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * These flyers were widely distributed and are currently the closest equivalent to cover art for console games. Though I agree using cover art for ports is less apt as they often represent an altered product which isn't the primary subject of discussion. Other products and events are frequently represented by promotional material in other projects such as film and music so I really don't see what the problem is. Combination 10:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Movie articles typically use promotional posters, for example. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Promotional posters for films are nothing like video game advertisements. Arcade flyers aren't closely associated with the game like cover art is for console games. Box art is what video game buyers see on store shelves. Movie posters are what people see in theatres. Most arcade game players have never seen arcade flyers, since they're mainly shown to arcade operators. --Jtalledo (talk) 12:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well that's how arcade games are being advertised and identified in the marketplace, even if many will not be exposed to them in the same capacity as a movie poster. Combination 18:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Arcade Flyers? What I noticed when I was trying to clean up Arcade Games that weren't converted to a CVG infobox fully, is that most of them used either a cover from a port or a screenshot of the game.  I think that's as it should be- arcade flyers are just ads for the game, the infobox should have something representative of the game, not an ad that game players didn't see.  --PresN 19:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the arcade project's guideline is to use screenshots, whereas the CVG project decided, under the misapprehension that the arcade project was dead, that fliers are best. Personally, I don't care, although if we end up with a conflict over whether to favor port covers or whatever the arcade consensus is due to the unification of the infoboxes, she should favor the more-recognizable one (so definitely the arcade convention for Pac-Man, but probably the NES cover for Bionic Commando). - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Both arcade flyers and box covers contain promotional images that may have nothing to do with the actual look of the game they represent. These images are used mainly because of a strong fair use rationale, because the market value of an advertisement is negligible and usage is transformative. Screenshot use is also appropriate, but due to Wikipedia policy, only one screenshot can be used for identification purposes, all others must have critical commentary to justify fair use. So, since fair use policy allows either promotional image or screenshot, either one could conceivably be used for the infobox. I think it's best to come to a compromise to allay usage disputes, something like an hierarchical guideline. That is, if a promotional image (flyer or box art) is available, use that (as most video game articles do), if neither are available, use a screenshot. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 18:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Browser-based games
Before I joined this WikiProject, I asked whether it was willing to cover browser-based games such as Neopets, RuneScape and AdventureQuest. Your reply and my decision to join set a precedent that browser-based games will be covered by this WikiProject.

Please follow up on this precedent. For starters, add the WikiProject tag to the talk pages of articles on browser-based games. Then set some standards for such articles, and collaborate to improve such articles. That's what a WikiProject is for, isn't it?

Shortly after joining the WikiProject, I posted that I wanted to improve RuneScape to Good Article status and to cleanup and add screenshots to the AdventureQuest article, and that I was seeking members of this WikiProject to collaborate with me on these articles. Is there any particular reason why I have not received any responses within the last 10 days?

I joined this WikiProject to collaborate with others on articles of interest: Neopets, RuneScape, AdventureQuest and Chip's Challenge. If no one wishes to collaborate with me, and being in this WikiProject does not help me find others to collaborate with to improve these articles, there is no reason why I should stay a member of this WikiProject. Please follow up on your promise to include articles on browser-based games in this WikiProject, and find someone willing to collaborate with me on these articles, or after 7 days I may decide to leave this WikiProject.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 13:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand the purpose of Wikiprojects in general. Wikiprojects are just a group of like-minded editors working on whatever their interests and knowledge are suited to. The reason you've probably not gotten any support with Runequest or AdventureQuest is because there's nobody who is both able and interested in helping at the moment. There's no way for a "promise" to be made on behalf of the project as a whole; either there's someone interested in helping or there isn't.

If you're disappointed in the support you've received, that's unfortunate and I'm sorry, but there's no real purpose served by "leaving" the Wikiproject; as long as you're working on game articles, you're more or less a member, and by voiciferously dissociating yourself from the project, you're just reducing the chance that a later editor who happens along who is interested in that subject knows about the work that needs to be done. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry. Sometimes I type faster than I think. It's really late here - I'll get my sleep and reply tomorrow. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 14:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Before joining, I asked whether you would be willing to include articles about browser-based games as part of this WikiProject (as I did not see any articles about browser-based games in the list). The response was in favour of including browser-based games as part of this WikiProject. As no promise was made, I think we should determine whether there is true consensus for including browser-based games as part of this WikiProject. If there is consensus, then it should be made official that this project covers browser-based games as well. To make it official, slap the CVG tag on the talk pages of articles on browser-based games and include such articles in lists such as "Featured Articles" and "Tasks". Then we should find members of this WikiProject who are interested in working on articles on browser-based games. In addition, we could go to the talk pages of articles of browser-based games and find people who play those games there, then rope them into the WikiProject.
 * I believe that one purpose of WikiProjects is for WikiProject members to collaborate on certain articles. For example, let's say I join a WikiProject Google. I write an article about Google Groups (the article was really written by me). I post a request for feedback on the article, and someone responds that with a little work, it could become a good article. I then post on WikiProject Google's talk page about the Google Groups article, asking for suggestions on how I can improve the article. Another member of the WikiProject responds with some suggestions, and then we decide to work on the article together to fix the issues and get the article to Good Article status. When we discuss about the article on its talk page, we learn more about each other, and become Wikifriends.
 * That's what I'm hoping to achieve from a WikiProject. To ask for help on how to improve an article; to seek Wikipedians who could collaborate with me on improving an article; to find Wikipedians who share a common interest to make Wikifriends with. For me, a WikiProject is a good place to drop a note like "Hi, I'm trying to improve RuneScape to GA standards. Could someone look through the article and suggest how I can improve it? Does anyone wish to work with me on improving this article". Will WikiProjects help me achieve these aims, or is there a better way to achieve them?
 * While I understand that many members of this WikiProject probably don't play RuneScape or AdventureQuest, I wanted to know whether not getting any responses was because of that, or because of a general disinterest in collaborating. If any member of this WikiProject plays Neopets, RuneScape, AdventureQuest or Chip's Challenge? If so, please drop a note on my talk page (or here), as I wish to become Wikifriends with you, and may collaborate with you on the article of our game of interest in future. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 11:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, you're making things a bit more formal than they really are. If you want to use this project's guidelines and tools to improve browser-based game articles, more power to you! Nobody wants to exclude them from this project. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 11:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Wikiprojects work just like you think they do. You come here, say, "Hey, could someone check out this article I wrote, see what needs to be done", and if someone wants to, they do just that. You don't need to write a long formal statement of what you think about wikiprojects and wikifriends and all that. Just say, hey, does someone want to help out on this, and if anyone is interested, they'll come help out. --PresN 17:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

List of commercial failures in computer and video gaming
Jimbo has posted on Talk:List of commercial failures in computer and video gaming say this is OR and should be deleted. Most of it is sourced in the linked articles, just not in this article. Everything needs to be sourced or removed or the page won't last long. Ace of Sevens 19:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well if something doesn't have a source, it obviously doesn't belong. In my opinion, pages like that shouldn't exist... due to the fact of speculated and rumored things put on it so much. Many of which can and/or will cause edit wars between editors. RobJ1981 19:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We should find sales data. A failure is relative, but with sales data, we can justify it a little more.--guitarhero777777 22:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Project Box
Hey I noticed that our project box needs to be updated. If someone gives me a crash course how, I'll do it. If someone doesn't feel like teaching me, could they update it themselves? Thanks to whoever. --Clyde Miller 02:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by updated? I've been mucking with it, as have a few other people.  The way I get ot it is to hit the edit button on it, and change Gamebox to Gamebox_contents.  Then you're editing the actual contents.  I know there's a real way to get to it, but I've forgotten what it was.  Peer Reviews are up to date, as are Cleanup, Merge, Requests, and GCotW.  I suppose that Expand needs updating, but I'd have to go back in the history to see when various articles where added to the list, so as to remove based on date.  Anything else you were looking for?  --PresN 16:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * My bad. When I went to edit it, the rest of the project page didn't turn up. That's why I thought I wasn't editing right (I didn't want to delete the project page). I guess I'll just save it anyway and hope it works. Also, I thought some of the games in the CVG review were missing because they were not in any order (alphabetical, by date or otherwise). Is there reason for that? If not, I'll help organize it (Oh by the way Gundam: Battle Assault was just added today. I'll try to add it on).--Clyde Miller 18:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I did it the way you explained and I still can't reach content. I tried from the portal and it doesn't show up as a box. Is this right? --Clyde Miller 19:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I mucked around with the box, and added G:BA. Here's a quick tutorial!
 * On the main page, hit the edit button that's inside of the box.
 * You should have an edit page that has nothing to do with the contents of the box.
 * The link in your browser should be yada yada yada?title=Template:Gamebox&action=edit
 * Change that to yada yada yada?title=Template:Gamebox_contents&action=edit and hit enter
 * Now you're in the edit page for the box contents (hurts the eyes to read, frankly)
 * The discussion, template, edit and history buttons should go to the contents now, rather than the box template.
 * Oh, and if you hit template, it'l have the contents, but they won't be in a box- each page that links to the box formats it in the way it wants, that's why the portal makes it look different than at the main page. --PresN 19:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Try this link and add it to your watchlist: Template:Gamebox contents. --SevereTireDamage 20:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I got it. Thanks to both of you (I got it to work both ways) and I'm watching the page. Oh, and thanks for adding G:BA PresN. --Clyde Miller 23:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Do we need a music-cvg-stub?
So I've been trying to sort some cvg stubs tonight, but I've been noticing that it's very difficult to place games like American Idol (video game) and Dance:UK into relevant categories - none exist that seem to fit them nicely. Since rhythm/music games make up a fairly large genre, is there room for a music-cvg-stub to be created, to put on these articles? RandyWang ( chat me up/fix me up ) 08:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sure. This stub could also be used for game albums and tracks as well. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 09:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, cool. I've requested the stub here, and will create it if there are no problems. RandyWang ( chat me up/fix me up ) 12:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

game cover tag
2 things about the video game cover tag: — Preceding unsigned comment added by CyberSkull (talk • contribs)
 * 1) It currently accepts up to 3 platforms to categorize an image under, perfect for multiplatform titles. ex: Image:Ypp box art.jpg.
 * 2) I'd like to move it to game-cover, but first an admin needs to edit the upload tag list to reflect this (I moved it back after I remembered this).


 * Wha-da-wha? Please, explain in a little more detail.  I think you're saying that there's a video game cover tag, which you feel is better than the current game-cover tag, and you'd like an admin to adjust the game-cover one so it matches the video game cover tag?  Am I catching this right? --PresN 17:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe CyberSkull means that gamecover should be moved to game-cover, to follow the same format all the other cvg tags do (with the hyphen seperating the words). I will be happy to fix the upload tag list when you're ready to make the move, CyberSkull.  Rob ert  17:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Now that I think about it, I'm assuming I'd have to move it in order to delete the redirect, but wouldn't it be more beneficial to keep it as gamecover so as to be consistent with the other cover templates, such as bookcover, DVDcover, magazinecover, etc?  Rob ert  20:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There is no issue with the actual move. I moved it back no problem because I realized gamecover is on the upload list and I cannot modify it. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 06:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, okay. I forgot that non-sysops can revert moves. In any case, I went ahead and edited the upload list, so feel free to move it now.  Rob ert  12:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)