Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Visual novels/2007

Project or taskforce?
Previously all visual novels were grouped under WP:MANGA, and the two projects will still overlap tremendously in scope. Would this project perhaps be better as a task force, where it could benefit from the higher visability of WP:MANGA? --tjstrf talk 07:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, they really won't overlap too much once it gets going. They really only overlap when an anime is based off of a visual novel. Of course, those end up being the articles that get any actual focus (fansubs are quick, translation patches take forever), but really most articles won't overlap. The notable exceptions seem to be Shuffle!, Soul Link, Air, Kanon, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Fate/stay night, and Happiness!. That's just seven articles that I can think of that really overlap, and there are hundreds of visual novels.


 * Other possibles are games like Utawarerumono and To Heart, but I don't know if we're going to take those genres in.--SeizureDog 14:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Should be use importance?
Article assessment usually works out really well, but the whole importance bit usually seems to flop for most WikiProjects. However, I think we can work up a system that should work well for our project.

Top: Visual novel and nothing else really.

High: Visual novels with anime adaptations (as these are the ones non-Japanese actually ever learn about); top five selling visual novels for each year or visual novels that are otherwise very popular; visual novels that are historically important for whatever reason (such as whichever one is first); articles that cover a large series of visual novels (e.g. Rance); companies that produce visual novels of high importance (e.g. Navel) or that just produce a lot (over 15).

Medium: Most translated visual novels (basically, stuff you can find on J-list); visual novels by companies of high importance that aren't of high importance themselves; popular visual novel characters (e.g. Saber (Fate/stay night)); "List of characters in..."; companies that produced between 5 and 15 unimportant visual novels.

Low: Visual novel characters not so popular (but still important enough to have their own article); visual novels nobody's ever heard of that should be added just for completeness' sake; companies that produced less than 5 unimportant visual novels.

Thoughts?--SeizureDog 14:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I smell controversies and endless edit wars, so I don't really agree to use it. _dk 18:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Importance could be useful to this WP. It is unmaintainable on a large scale, Anime and manga has over 4000 tagged pages, but a WikiProject of this size should easily be able to keep track of changes. It's just a matter of looking at the log once a week and see if there are any questionable assessments. "Top" articles can be candidates to be included into Wikipedia:Version 1.0. --Squilibob 05:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Participants list
Unlike WP:ANIME, I don't think there will be enough members here to warrant a category, and a participant list would be easy to manage. I think a list should replace/be used with the member category. _dk 18:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I weakly disagree on that point. The project already has a userbox User WP Visual novels that users can add to point out the fact that they are members, and since most userboxes already have categories attached to them, it wouldn't make sense to get rid of it, plus it's a quick way to see who's joined the project and takes away the need of users to add in their names to a master list if they can just simply add in the userbox or the category itself into their userpage. So I think the category should stay. (  十   八  ) 21:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've always preferred categories over lists for WikiProject participants since an editor is more likely to keep their userpage up-to-date than several lists in other places. -- Ned Scott 01:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

New infobox
Maybe it's about time that a unique infobox, modelled on the visual novel infoboxes of the Japanese wiki. As it is currently, it seems we are using a variety of boxes to provide information, which were not specifically created for this purpose.

It would include additional information such as the number of endings, whether or not it is fully voiced, ratings and the genre (for example, visual novel, love adventure, or the other classifications the Japanese use). Karn-b 15:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean like an extension of Infobox VG? That template has been used for all computer and video games, though I see your point. However, since many of these visual novels are also anime/manga, the Infobox animanga/Game template seems to take care of that well enough. On the other hand, articles like Shuffle! that only use the Infobox VG template might be in need of a new expanded template for visual novels. (  十   八  ) 23:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * But are those information suitable to be systematically placed in infoboxes? I personally think they're better off in the prose. _dk 23:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've translated the Japanese infobox used. The infobox is classified under "美少女ゲーム系" on the Japanese wiki, which is roughly "beautiful girl games..."...not too sure what we call it in English though....

In reality, I think only the following would be relevant to an English audience:


 * Platform
 * Publisher
 * Release Dates
 * Genre
 * Rating
 * Endings
 * Number of discs
 * Voice

I think the information should be put in an info box to help differentiate the genre from other "normal" games.

Karn-b 15:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * We should be looking at Template:Infobox animanga/game and not Template:Bishoujo game. I agree with karn-b and which fields are needed, but I think that "Designers" (scenario and/or characters) and "Engine" are also important enough to include. When we know them at least.--SeizureDog 16:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I suppose we could simply modify the current Infobox animanga/Game to perhaps include the points mentioned above, plus a few more from the Japanese version? I'll translate the Japanese version later tonight to see if other points there are relevant here.

Karn-b 05:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think that those changes should be made to Infobox animanga/Game because it would become too clutered and articles that already have long Infoboxes such as Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Kanon and Air (series) would be further impeeded due to the added length...I say create a seperate template or not at all. (  十   八  ) 06:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

For any infobox I think less is more. Remember, the infobox is not a place to repeat every tiny little tidbit or stat. On that note, I'd axe "number of discs". -- Ned Scott 06:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I would also axe "Number of endings" since I doubt this will be relavent to the English Wikipedians on Japan-exclusive visual novels, which the vast majority of them are. (  十   八  ) 06:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think number of endings is important. It gives a basic way to see how broad the game is. Of course, a game can still be very long with few endings, but usually the more endings there are, the more playtime there is to be had. Perhaps a better indicator would be the number of CG stills, but that gets too hard to keep track of. Number of discs I don't care to keep, but the normal CVG box has a Media section so either way seems fine to me.--SeizureDog 08:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Another thing I would include is the "other names" section. The number of endings is important to give a feel for the game, but the number of CGs....well, I certainly don't count when I play and it doesn't really give an indication to what the game has. And also, wasn't there a way to hide certain entries in the infobox if it were let blank?


 * Number of discs might also be relevant, given that multple versions of the same game have been released on multiple media. It might help to differentiate each one. Karn-b 17:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, here's the Japanese version of the animanga infobox. I know the amount of detail is overkill but it might give us ideas while we're at it:  Karn-b 14:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

What have we played?
I thought it would be a good idea to make up a list of which visual novels our members have played. Please add yours here. This could very likely end up being a very short list.... Anywaysm I recently bought a Japanese PS2, so I've been wanting to get a visual novel for it, but I only know of six that exist for it: all of Key's work, Shuffle! On the Stage, and Snow. Anyone know of some others I should keep my eye out for?--SeizureDog 18:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This is a pretty good idea, but what is the criterion for having "played" one? For example, I've played all of [insani]'s trial games... would that count as having played a game?  Does playing a game in Japanese despite not understanding Japanese count as having played it?  In that case, I've played Kanon, Air, Fate/stay night, etc.  Anyway, I added a few games that are well known and that I've played through in English.  Moogy   ( talk )  14:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Grr. Damnit, accidently lost my post. Quick resummary: Japanese version = yes, but only if you were able to still sunderstand what was going on; demos = no.--SeizureDog 00:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, just off the top of my head, I'd recommend the infinity series for PS2... Never7, Remember11, and Ever17. KID's Memories Off series is supposed to be good as well.  Not to mention that the Fate/stay night and Higurashi no Naku Koro ni PS2 versions come out soon...  Hmm, there's of course ToHeart2 and Utawarerumono, from Leaf.   There's also many Circus games, such as the Da Capo series and the Mai HiME visual novel adaptation.  There's a huge wealth of visual novels on the PS2, really.  Moogy   ( talk )  17:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni might be a good choice, since it's not an eroge, I won't lose content (read: H-scenes) and the new voice acting and redrawn scenes seems like a good plus. I'll wait to see if it sells well enough to get re-released at a cheaper price ($65+ is hard to swallow for any visual novel). I wonder what the $100 limited edition comes with though.--SeizureDog 00:52, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

VN sales info/reviews
SeizureDog mentioned on Talk:Air (series) that we need to find a reliable VN review site. Fortunately, one exists. Getchu.com has a wealth of VN reviews, as well as sales information and lists of merchandise, etc. It seems to be quite popular in Japan and a reliable source. It should prove very helpful in providing references, as it keeps a list of the top-selling VNs of every fiscal year! Notice that I referenced the sales info over at Fate/stay night using the site. I hope this helps with any referencing or research. Moogy  ( talk )  14:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Getchu has reviews? Where? I knew about the sales information, as I had included that in the Shuffle! article.--SeizureDog 17:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Trouble is that their sales info goes as far back as January 2004, so anything older than that has no records. I browsed the site for a while but couldn't find any reviews; if only I knew Japanese...The site does keep a listing of products released for what series though, so it's good for retail prices and to check up on additional merchandise. Famitsu is also a well-known and respected reviewer of Japanese video games/visual novels. (  十   八  ) 04:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, they only rate the console ports though. At least, that's all I've ever been able to find. So that only helps for a few articles.--SeizureDog 06:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Erogamescape has non-editorial, user reviews, but it is generally regarded as the best source for eroge (and VN in general) review numbers, as they provide averaged scores on a scale of 0-100 for virtually every VN/eroge released. Moogy   ( talk )  20:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Is Yumeria a VN?
Is Yumeria a visual novel? It appears to be so from the benchmark/demo program. --Squilibob 10:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * According to the official Namco site, it's a visual novel with some weirdass battle system. Moogy   ( talk )  13:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let's get a bit serious.
Bishōjo game, Dating sim, Visual novel, and Eroge. Four articles on almost the same subject and four articles that are a major headache to sort through. Here are the problems as I see them: I say if this project is to move forward, we need to get our main articles sorted out and making sense. Anyone up to the task of helping with these major merges?--SeizureDog 13:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * ~98% of visual novels are bishōjo games.
 * ~95% of bishōjo games are visual novels.
 * ~98% of eroge are visual novels and vice versa.
 * ~98% of games called "dating sims" are actually visual novels.
 * I still have yet to find another actual dating sim besides Tokimeki Memorial (which I own, so certainly know it isn't a visual novel).
 * Bishōjo game does not seem to be a genre, but a concept. It's as if fanservice was considered a full fledged genre. Honestly, we just cannot get a "genre" defined as "has beautiful girls in it" to work right. I think that eventually, this article should be a disambig page along the lines of "A bishōjo game is a Japanese video game involving beautiful girls. It is usually used as a synonym for the dating sim or visual novel video game genres, but can be applied to any video game." Most of the information from "bishōjo game" should be merged into "visual novel".
 * "Dating sim" requires a complete rewrite due to the confusion with visual novels also being called dating sims.
 * Eroge probably needs to be turned into a disambig page along the lines of, "Eroge is a Japanese term for 'erotic video games'. The term most commonly refers to adult-themeed visual novels, but can also refer to any Japanese adult video game. See also Pornography in Japan" Again, most of the information in eroge needs to be merged into visual novel.

I think you're oversimplifying things, and while I see your point, the percentages you listed are just arbitrary overestimates...anyways, I'll respond point to point: I think we shouldn't be making our own judgments on what a term actually means, I learned this the hard way. Also see the previous discussion on this that didn't go so well. Most of my points there remain intact. I also don't suggest rash actions based on partial knowledge. _dk 21:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * What about the female oriented visual novels? They hold a substantial market.
 * "Substantial"? I checked the getchu.com top 50s for each year, and none of the boxes had guys on them. And I did check to make sure they carried yaoi and shit--SeizureDog 07:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Because Getchu.com is a "美少女ゲーム・アニメの情報＆通販サイト"....that is to say, it only concerns itself with bishojo games._dk 10:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No they don't. Did you read what I said incorrectly? They carry games like Enzai as well.--SeizureDog 08:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That's what their landing page tells me, the exact words I've copied above. With games and merchandise from like Kiniro no Corda selling like hotcakes, Tokimeki Memorial having a female oriented version, and the first dojin game ported to a gaming console is female oriented....I believe my doubt is justified. _dk 09:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I still think I could probably find 49 bishojo visual novels for every 1 female oriented visual novel you could find though. But whatever, it's not a contest or anything, the tilde makes it variable, but bishojo games still make up the overwhelming majority of visual novels. --SeizureDog 09:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yea...I'm just saying we shouldn't overlook them. (This discussion is getting messy) _dk 10:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagree, the Bishōjo game article itself contradicted that.
 * The bishōjo game mentions a few examples that go against the norm. And I'm not entirely convinced strip majhong really counts as a bishōjo game. I'm not saying bishōjo game should be deleted or anything, but all of the content relevant to visual novels or dating sims should be merged. If we can still get it to work as an article then, great. But I rather doubt there'll be much left.--SeizureDog 07:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Why aren't strip mahjongs and the like bishojo games? _dk 10:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * They just don't seem to fit. Also it makes it seem that every male oriented eroge (which is to say, nearly all of them) is considered a bishojo game (which they very may well be), leading me to further believe that bishojo games as a genre are really just a synonym for other genres. --SeizureDog 08:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Also disagree, there are many sex simulation games (eg. those by Illusion Soft) from Japan that are certainly eroges but not visual novels. And many visual novels are not erotic in nature (eg. Clannad, Higurashi, Planetarian)
 * Which is what the "any Japanese adult video game" thing covers. Once you get rid of the visual novel information, porn games in Japan are really the same as porn games anywhere else.--SeizureDog 07:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This point I partially agree, but if the publishers call it "dating sims" we can't go against that unless we have sources that say the publishers are wrong.
 * Since it's only the English publishers that call them "dating sims", it's pretty simple to find a source saying they're not: the original Japanese publisher.--SeizureDog 07:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Kimikiss, Dōkyūsei, games where the main character is able to move around, the whole category here ja:Category:恋愛シミュレーションゲーム.
 * It is a concept, but I don't see why it cannot be an article. This term, or galge, is the term most Japanese people are familiar with and so it should deserve its own article.
 * If we have an article on Pornography in Japan, why can't we have an article about Adult video games in Japan, ie Eroge? If anything, I think it should merge into Adult video game.
 * The previous discussion got ren'ai game and anime game deleted at least, which were also repeat information articles. Also note that I'm not so much concerned about doing away with the articles as I am with merging all of the repeat information. Visual novels play an enormous part in the history of both bishojo games and eroge, but we don't need the information repeated three times. At most, they should have short sections on visual novels which connect via a Template:Main.--SeizureDog 07:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't comment on whether the bishoujo game genre is a valid separate genre by itself. I can comment on female-targeted visual novels and dating sims, because I own several and keep track of them - but only those available on the PS2. Some thoughts:
 * Dating sims are not listed in the video game genre page. They should be. Either dating sim or love sim.
 * Visual novels and dating sims - I think these articles should be kept separate, with the intro to each clearly stating the differences between them.
 * As for the female targeted games, I made a page called 'Otome_game' describing them, taking info from the Japanese WP page for otome games'. I also noted that some Western fans call them G*B games, but the genre is still so unknown that I left the title as otome games because that's a common term among Japanese players and websites.  I also included a list of games, and am planning on creating articles for each game or at least the notable titles.

Lijakaca 18:50, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Just so you know, there was once a page for GxB; it was later merged into Dating sim and the last version before the merger can be viewed here. I'm not sure if we should keep them merged or not though since it looks like SeizureDog just merged them without a discussion.-- 十  八  21:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I know. I didn't have a problem with merging GxB into dating sim, since it didn't have much original information.  There's still a note on GxB, and it's so little known as a genre here that I don't think it needs its own page.Lijakaca 19:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

OEL VNs.
I'm somewhat curious as to why this project explicitly bans "American visual novels inspired from their Japanese counterparts made entirely in English for English-speaking audiences." Apart from the obvious problems with this phrasing (what if the game was made by a Brit? Or a Slovak?), it seems somewhat odd to discriminate based on where a game is made.

Note that this is still mostly hypothetical, as I don't believe that there are any OEL games that meet the criteria for inclusion. I would expect that to change over the next few years, however. — PyTom 07:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I suppose it should be rewritten to say "Visual novels inspired from their Japanese counterparts originally inteded for an audience other than Japanese". This is how WP:Anime deals with anime and manga, and is there primairaly to keep the scope within Japan. Half of this project was paterned off of WP:Anime and WP:CVG, btw.--  十  八  08:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I think Sprung qualifies as an OEL visual novel, btw.--SeizureDog (talk) 11:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, I never knew anything like that existed. I'm surpised they attempted to make an English dating sim.--  十  八  11:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems that the company went on do more, similar games for cell phones. But yeah, I pretty much only know of the game from being the second worst DS launch title (next to the pointless Ping Pals).--SeizureDog (talk) 11:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Reorganizing Eroge and Category:H games
Right now, Eroge has a massively incomplete list of games, a list that is mostly redundant to Category:H games. The eroge list has one advantage over the category— it distinguishes between translated and untranslated games. I'm considering doing the following reorganization:


 * Create the new category Category:English-translated H games
 * Move articles for games with english translations into the new category.
 * Remove the (now redundant) list of games from Eroge, and replace it with a See Also of the category.

Does anyone have any comments on or objections to this plan? — PyTom 19:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject merger
It has been suggested by myself to merge WikiProject Visual novels into WikiProject Video games as a task force. A rationale is viewable at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games. Please place all comments there; this is merely a notice to inform related parties.--  十  八  21:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Use of Spoiler Tags

 * I've noticed in recent articles related to the visual novel project that users have been removing spoiler tags en masse, citing redundancy or a lack of necessity in certain articles. True to Wikipedian fanaticism, the absolute removal of the spoiler tags seems as destructive as the punctuated use of them prior to this "cleansing" - in several articles, namely the one dedicated to Ever17 which is poorly written and literally summarizes an entire game's worth of plot twists into a few measly paragraphs without warning whatsoever. Considering a game like Ever17 built its reputation on these difficult to discern twists, it is alarming that members of the community are so fascist about guidelines that they are willing to open up hapless, casual readers to potential bombshells like those within that article.


 * As such, I would like to ask for a consensus on the use of spoiler tags in developing articles, as well as in more complete visual novel articles. Frankly, I see no reason to go against the current policy (WP:Spoiler), but I would argue in cases where "style and clarity" is almost non-existant, as is the case with the weakly structured Ever17 article, spoiler tags should at a minimum be mandatory. I feel that only in the event that the article has attained a level of acceptable quality as deemed by the community should spoiler tags be removed under this argument, and even then, they should be preserved for novels or works totally dedicated to "surprising" the player (as is the case with the novel I have cited). Terek 07:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * In principle, I agree with this, but it is not easy for us to convince the Wikipedians who have been removing the spoiler tags on sight. It would be more practical, I think, to actually rewrite the offending section (or even crop out the spoilerish parts) _dk 07:21, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * ever17 demonstrates an interesting hide spoiler inline function. Does anyone know how this works and is there a feasible way to implement this within the guidelines of WP:SPOILER?  Jyuichi 03:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think concealing spoilers is one of those things explicitly forbidden, according to WP:SPOILER _dk 03:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Visual novels vs. AVGs
The infobox in Japanese Wikipedia's article on Leaf seperates their games into seperate visual novel and AVG sections. But wait, I thought visual novels and AVGs were basically the same thing. Granted, AVGs can refer to any adventure game, but Kusari doesn't look like Myst or anything. I'm completely confused now, can someone explain this seperation? It seems that Kusari also has a item collecting element to it, so I'm wondering if being capable of doing anything than selecting answer responces causes a game to technically not be a visual novel. --SeizureDog (talk) 06:15, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The Japanese seem to make a distinction between visual novels (where you have a full-screen window) and adventure games (where there's only one line of text in the window). Since adventure games are their own genre in the english-speaking world, people who use these terms in English tend to call both types of game visual novels. — PyTom (talk) 06:59, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * There is that, but it could also be the company since genres usually come from designations the company has included on their product. An example of this is creating new types of genres as was what happened with Underbar Summer and Moon., although most of the time they'd be classified under "Renai Adventure" which is what they call things we typically refer to as visual novels, although they also have "Renai Simulation" for our dating sim and there are others. Hell, they even distinguish between Girl game and Bishōjo game, and then they have ones we have not created articles for like Shota game, Little sister game, and Older sister game. And then who can forget the Crying games which I think we should have an article on. The point is that the Japanese have many sub-areas for games that are similar in nature, but are different enough to warrent their own designation. So I think games like Shuffle! and Kanon can still be called visual novels by overseas otaku, even if that designation would be better fitted to games like Fate/stay night or Higurashi no Naku Koro ni according to the Japanese.--  十  八  07:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This logic doesn't appear to make sense. An image with windowed text is used to illustrate their visual novel article and Planetarian is considered a kinetic novel (not directly visual novel, but still of the "novel" genre) and it uses windowed text. I think that's more of a general statement than the actual aspect that seperates the two. A badly translated version of the Japanese article seems to imply that the ability to move is what seperates them, but I'm not sure.--SeizureDog (talk) 07:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Then maybe the image is just a poor example because the first sentence of their first section defines a visual novel as "a novel that is read on the full display of a computer screen with accompanying sound and images."--  十  八  08:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ugh. The more I'm looking, the rarer the use of "visual novel" seems to be. Looking in the genre field of random infoboxes, I see: "sound novel", "portable novel", "novel adventure game", "young love rock and rock novel" (wtf?), "heartful mini novel", "cinematic novel", and so on. Stupid Japanese made this all complicated :/--SeizureDog (talk) 08:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * As I said, those last ones are more than likely the designation the company gave the game to make it seem more "original".--  十  八  10:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

How should we label games?
It appears that the term "visual novel" has become yet another Japanese term whose meaning slightly differs in English. So it seems that we need to decide what it exactly means to us.

Right now, the current system appears to be as such:
 * Any genre ending with "novel" (visual novel, sound novel, kinetic novel, etc.) → visual novel
 * Any text heavy Japanese "adventure game" → visual novel
 * Ren'ai simulation games → dating sim

The question though, is how much interactivity does a game have to have before we consider it a plain ol' adventure game instead of just a visual novel? Specific games to think over:
 * The Ace Attorney series. Text heavy, but contains many aspects aside from just talking. Also, I haven't seen anyone but us call it a visual novel, this may be OR.
 * Really? Really! Unlike earlier games in the series, it is more complicated than just text due to the 'Really!' system.
 * Little Busters! Has those simple fight scenes. The statistical element almost seems to lend it to being a simulation game (and thus, a dating sim), though doesn't appear to be label as such.

This seems to be a tricky issue. Thoughts?--SeizureDog (talk) 00:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * First, Little Busters! is classified as a "Renai adventure game" by Key, making it a "visual novel" by our standards. There are the fight scenes, but it's really the interactive mini games that set it apart from a regular game, and then there's all the stuff with the baseball practice and baseball game they play. Similiarly, Really? Really! also has an added element of gameplay, but it's still a visual novel in the end. I won't comment on Ace Attorney since I've never played it, but I think calling it a "visual novel" is a bit of a stretch considering the term should be taken at face value: a visual novel is a novel first, with added visual/audio elements second. Is Ace Attorney really a novel in this sense? Anyway, I believe the classification we have works best, as summarized in your three bullet points. It keeps classifying them relatively simple without having to go into extra details which can be left for a gameplay section on a given article.--  十  八  01:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Mk, I fine with that logic. We might should update the "Scope" section to better reflect our stance on this. The focus of Ace Attorney is more on the court battles ("Objection!") than the story, so I think we should probably take it out of our scope. I do think that we should probably start citing dating sim games though (by finding official sources calling them "ren'ai simulation" games) since that genre is mislabeled everywhere. I'm going to start checking Category:Dating sims using this as the standard.--SeizureDog (talk) 01:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Category:Dating sims has now been purged of all non-dating sim games. The two entries I am unsure of are Sakura Wars (its genre seems rather complicated) and Season of the Sakura (I can't figure out its Japanese title to check). Not surprisingly, the cat is now quite sparse.--SeizureDog (talk) 04:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The Japanese name is さくらの季節. Also, I added Sentimental Graffiti to the category since the Enlgish and Japanese wikis label it as a dating sim; couldn't find an active official website for the original release though...--  十  八  07:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I have removed Season of the Sakura from the dating sim category, the game is purely a visual novel by our standards. _dk (talk) 05:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Part of the problem is that the Peter Payne Zaibatsu (J-List, Peach Princess, G-Collections, JAST USA etc.) consistently uses "dating sim" for all their games. They produce most of the commercial translations of these games, so the term has grown in popularity. When I tell people Ren'Py makes visual novels, they look at me as if I had three heads. When I then tell them it makes dating sims, they tend to know what that is. — PyTom (talk) 07:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * True enough. If it wasn't for the fallacy of calling such games "sims", then it'd be a lot less of a problem to adapt their terminology.--SeizureDog (talk) 09:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)