Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales/Archive 2008

Blue Merle
My uncle just got a new Blue Merle dog - but when I looked it up here, it went to a Nashville, Tenesse band named after a set of Jimmy Page Led Zepplin lyrics where he is describing walking his dog. Reading the article on the band, they refer to a the mystical blue merle - but not sure the writer of the article or even the band themselves realised they were naming themselves after a dog! I moved the band article, and redirected Blue Merle to the article on a dogs coat, which derives itself from original Welsh. Sometimes, this place just amuses me! Rgds, - Trident13 (talk) 14:54, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Wales categories
A suggestion relating to the categorisation of places in Wales has been made at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_geography. We'd welcome input from this team if it's possible! -- Jza84 · (talk) 20:36, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Court photographs
Does anyone have, or can anyone pop out and take, photographs of current or former county courts in Wales to add to List of county courts in England and Wales or List of former county courts in Wales? I've got Caernarfon, Pontypridd, Cardiff and Carmarthen (Guildhall) for the first and Monmouth (Market Hall) for the second, but photos of others would be good. Thanks, BencherliteTalk 08:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Newport station
WP:RM Newport --> Newport (Gwent). See Talk:Newport railway station. Simply south (talk) 14:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I've been bold and per a rough consensus i moved it to Newport (Wales) railway station. Simply south (talk) 15:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Places in Wales
Hello team,

I just wondered if I could get some feedback on how well (or poor) WP:UKCITIES is translating to Welsh settlements? Is the project aware that they exist? Are there any Welsh-specific problems which require elaboration?

Places in Wales are currently amongst the lower, or lowest quality settlement articles of the UK, sadly. I believe we only have one good article and no featured articles! It would be nice if WP:UKCITIES could help turn this around. If there are any problems or even blessings, feedback left at the UKCITIES talk page would be much appreciated. Thanks, -- Jza84 · (talk) 14:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:UKNATIONALS
Following from an extended discussion at "Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)" on how people from the United Kingdom should be described ("British", or "English", "[Northern] Irish", "Scottish" or "Welsh"), which did not result in consensus, an essay entitled "Nationality of people from the United Kingdom" (WP:UKNATIONALS) has been prepared. You're welcome to provide your comments on how it can be improved at the talk page of "Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)". &mdash; Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 16:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

English places/Welsh names
Contributors to this board may find this debate of interest -   --MJB (talk) 19:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Infobox UK place maps
Hello WikiProject Wales participants,

I produce maps for use on UK settlement articles, within the Template:Infobox UK place and have just completed mapping for the whole of England. I am considering producing something similar for Wales, dividing maps locally according to the subdivisions of Wales, or else a national map, akin to that used at Belfast. I'd like to obtain some feedback as to what the community would like. For example, how would the map(s) be divided? Would it be according to:


 * 1) Principal areas of Wales
 * 2) Preserved counties of Wales
 * 3) Some other Administrative divisions of Wales

If no feedback is given I assume a UK wide map is the accepted way forwards. Feedback welcome, -- Jza84 · (talk) 00:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your offer. I'd personally go for Principal Areas but I'm sure there are those with strong feelings towards having the Preserved counties.--Rhyswynne (talk) 12:24, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd go with the Principal Areas as well as they represent current divisions. Agathoclea (talk) 14:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Me too. BencherliteTalk 20:23, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The principal areas, despite the silly name, are the only logical choice. Thanks for the work on this, by the way, Jza84, - anything (except the so-called historic counties) must be an improvement on the present vague red blob on a huge map of the UK that doesn't even show Wales! Enaidmawr (talk) 23:07, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This is excellent feedback thanks. I had an inclin that it would be the Principal areas yes. So that's 5 for and 0 against. So, would you guys ideally want seperate maps for the seperate areas (i.e. like each county of England has a county map), or, a national map like used for Northern Ireland? It may be that I have to do a national map first (due to restrictions in time - England took me a year!) with the view of getting round to each locality. Also, is there anything else I need to be aware of? -- are you happy with the format with the English county maps to be adopted here for example? --Jza84 | Talk  03:22, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * A national map for speed to start with, perhaps, just so that we don't have to have the UK map! Thereafter, any lower-level maps you can manage would be great. I haven't seen any English county maps that have made me go "ouch" - picking a county at random, I chose Somerset and Taunton and like the look of both. BencherliteTalk 08:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed...the Preserved and historic counties of Wales are where they should be "in history"...The Principal areas are the only logical way forward. I think that is now 7 for and 0 against.  Seth Whales (talk) 10:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Does anybody know of a high quality online source I could be "inspired" by to help me produce a national map? I need something with urban and the principal areas marked out really. --Jza84 | Talk  23:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm still struggling for source material to work from, does anybody know of a source? --Jza84 | Talk  12:21, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Does this (http://www.pickatrail.com/jupiter/location/europe/england/england.html) website help? Is this what you were looking for? Seth Whales (talk) 17:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, for England I used something along the lines of (because of Crown Copyright) The Boundary Commission's publications on local government areas. I'm struggling to find an equivalent for Wales, which as stalled my intentions to get this done! --Jza84 | Talk  17:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Monkton, Pembroke
The Monkton, Pembrokeshire stub is extremely biased and misleading. There is no such cheese rolling competition, no pub, it's hardly a 'romantic older village', there are old cottages on the way into the town, but they count as Pembroke, and not Monkton. Monkton itself is made up of 60's prefab flats. It is Pembrokeshire's very own attempt at 'ethnic cleansing', and it's where they put the drug addicts the gypsies and the homeless (I know because I was homeless myself). Everyone I have shown the Monkton wiki page finds it hilarious and it is now somewhat of an in joke among the people in Pembroke, as well as those in Monkton with access to a computer. The page was clearly created by 'Monkton communities first' (they are even kind enough to provide a link to their homepage at the bottom.

Thanks Alex Holding Formerly Monkton, Pembrokeshire. Now Sunderland, Tyne & Wear —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexholding (talk • contribs) 10:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I have done some tidying up of the article, removing some unencyclopaedic comments and POV. If anyone can find some sources to improve it further, that'd be good. BencherliteTalk 10:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Maps for the constituent countries in the UK
I have created the above maps. I hope you all don't mind that I was WP:BOLD and added them to the relative articles myself. I really don't want to create any edit wars I just want to see what others think and hopefully bring this to a nice consensus on what to use. I hate the idea that other countries seam to be more organized then us with these things, so I hope you think the new one looks professional... I'm actually kinda pleased :-) Please voice your opinion over at Talk:Scotland I know I'd personally love to hear your opinions! Thanks -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 05:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Museums in Wales
Could I ask for some help accessing local knowledge, from members of this wikiproject, on the behalf of the new WikiProject Museums? We are currently trying to identify articles within the Museum projects scope (& develop guidelines to help improve them etc). There is a List of museums in Wales. Could you take a look at the list for your local area and see if any are missing or create articles for any red links. Could you also add the new project banner " " to the Talk pages of the articles, so that we can identify those in need of work etc. Any help appreciated &, if anyone is interested you are welcome to join the project or discuss Museum related articles on the Project Talk Page.&mdash; Rod talk 13:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Wales infobox
Just wondered what others thought of the new coloured infoboxes proposed at Talk:Wales. It's not for me (I might as well say here, as you'll find out there!), but I would welcome wider input at that talk page. --Jza84 | Talk  02:05, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Flat Holm Project
A group of us at the Flat Holm Project are developing the Flat Holm article with the ambition to get the it to meet the criteria for Featured Article status of FA status - if you have any referenced information about the island please contribute. Thanks Tony (talk) 07:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Requests for Mediation
Your Voice Counts!

Greetings Wales community! We need your Voice! We need mediation and impute from the wider community who regularily contribute to articals of Wales interest. At issue is the use of a distinctive border around the country info box, as well title bar. The issue seems to have become a crusade against Wales by certin editors, who have almost never contributed to and practically never visit (by their own admission) the Wales page. I do not tust the motives of the editor, who seems to be stalking my edits and reverting them purposefully. This editor even dismisses the colors of Wales red and green saying that Wales does not have any official colors! (quote: "I imagine that this use of "national colours" (of which Wales has none by custom or tradition)...", Unfortunatly, I must deal with these cyber bullying tactics if I am to contribute here. However, I implore the Wales commmunity to weigh in on the topic of allowing info box borders and title headers. Please submit views on Template talk:Infobox Country and talk:Wales. If the wider Wales community decides not to support a border and title header color in the colors of Wales then I will withdrawal from this position. However, I and other editors do feel it makes the Wales page far more distinctive. Sincerly, David Llewellyn ♦Drachenfyre♦ · Talk 02:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * NEW DEVELOPMENTS: JZA84 Has nominated the use of the styalized borders and title headers for deletion!!!! Please have your say here! Templates for deletion/Log/2008 April 14


 * Yes, Wikipedia is not MySpace afterall! If you want "styalized borders" or a "funky look" use the Skin please, not invent non-statutory national colours without discussion. --Jza84 | Talk  09:52, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The history behind the info box borders can be found on Template talk:Infobox Country

Mistaken articles
has created a large number of articles based on various lists of places last year. As it became apparent that some of them were created wrongly i.e. not settlements, but other landmarks he went to ask for all of them to be deleted. Equally troublesome as a good number are real settlements. I suggest that with the help of the editor we take another look at those creations and separate the good from the bad. Agathoclea (talk) 11:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * These are the articles I suspect as being false, as they don't appear on any maps I've looked at: Bont Fawr, Alaw, Anglesey, Bachau, Cader, Caemorgan, Backe, Carmarthenshire, Braichmelyn. Thanks for any help. Epbr123 (talk) 11:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Backe, Carmarthenshire seems to exist as I regularly drive past the sign for it. (And always have to think about the German meaning of the word), I'll check my offline map when I got a chance. Agathoclea (talk) 11:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * May I suggest looking on this website based on the Ordnance Survey maps of the UK. Most of these places appear to be genuine settlements, and if so they are worthy of articles. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Alaw, Anglesey could well be Llyn Alaw - nothing on the OS website for a separate village by that name. From that website, Bachau is near Llanerchymedd. BencherliteTalk 12:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Amongst the ones I've found so far are: Braichyfedw (a farmhouse - tagged delete), Braichmelyn (part of Bethesda - merged), 'Bacheldre' (mill/caravan site - deleted), Abercoed (farmhouse - tagged notability, suggest delete), and Coed y Pantwn (=? tagged notability: see its Talk page). I'm sure there are others I've missed. Some of the ones I looked at and checked were genuine settlements, however the question arises "where do you draw the line?" If the hamlet of Foo (population 6) on the edge of Foo village (pop. 50) is to be included - perhaps rightly so in some cases, e.g. historical interest - I could add about a hundred one-line stubs to each county with the aid of my OS maps. This needs keeping an eye on. In particular I think if we are going to include these micro-settlements a new cat needs to be created: it is just ridiculous to call them "villages". Enaidmawr (talk) 22:02, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There was also 'Caebitra' (a small stream - deleted) and Brilley (genuine small village, but in England, not Wales!). I've concentrated on the north and west as I don't have OS maps for southern Powys and south Wales - maybe someone could have a look at the village cats there too? Enaidmawr (talk) 22:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Help me! In need of a pic expert!/Llywelyn the Last pic needed!
Today I added an infobox the articles Llywelyn the Last and Dafydd ap Llywelyn. The infoboxes are fine but they both lack pictures. I am a real image-phobic on wikipedia and daren't upload anything in case it has some kind of copyright on it. A quick google search shows [This], [this] and [this] website to contain a picture of L. the last. Would anyone be so kind as to tell me if any of these pics would be OK to upload and if so under which lisence? Does anyone have any pics for Dafydd? I would be soo grateful for any helpful replies! Thanks in advance! --Cameron (t|p|c) 19:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I am no image expert, but you have probably already seen this pic: Image:Medieval parliament edward.Jpg on WikiMedia Commons for Llywelyn the Last. Any good? The description says "depicts Edward I presiding over parliament in c.1278. Edward is flanked by Alexander III of Scotland and Llywelyn the Last of Wales, although they probably did not attend any of Edward's parliaments". You could always contact Culturenet Cymru for the copyright status of say this image.  It could well be over 70 years since the artists death, therefore Public Domain.  Have a look at Public domain image resources, this may help.  Also have a look at avoiding copyright paranoia.  Best wishes.  Seth Whales (talk) 10:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you such much for your helpful answer! --Cameron (t|p|c) 19:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon takeover of Wales
Did you know that the Anglo-Saxons took over Wales? I wasn't aware of the fact either until I saw the title of this article. I'm suggesting it be renamed. Comments/suggestions welcome on its talk page. Diolch, Enaidmawr (talk) 23:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Welsh Labour -or Wales Labour Party?
I created a new category, and decided on conventions of the organisation's name to call it Category:Welsh Labour. Someone who clearly thinks from English lines over wiki convention wants to name the category Wales Labour Party is debating the issue in the catgories name discussion. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 08:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Requests for unbiased mediation
Hello! I am an editor contributing to Wikipedia, however I seem to have entered into an edit conflict with another editor who hawks over my edits and reverts them. He orchastrated a campaign against styalized country info boxes, and now has followed me to the Kingdom of Gwynedd page and is editing-out an into image there. I seek others opinions because I feel that these are targeted against any edits that I do. Thank you very much! I really do not want to leave Wikipedia, but fear this harrassment may lead me to! ♦Drachenfyre♦ · Talk 10:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Addressed. --Jza84 | Talk  11:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Nothing is addressed without mediation. ♦Drachenfyre♦ · Talk 11:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I'm sorry you feel that way. --Jza84 | Talk  11:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Welsh Wikipedia article AfD
There's currently an AfD discussion about the Welsh Wikipedia article (that is, the article here on the English wikipedia about the Welsh-language wikipedia). It doesn't look like there are English-language sources to demonstrate notability, but based on Googling "Cymraeg wikipedia", I thought there might be Welsh-language sources. But since I don't speak Welsh, I can't evaluate that. If anyone here on WikiProject Wales can have a look to see if there are Welsh-language (or any other language, for that matter) sources that demonstrate notability, that'd be useful. Thanks. Klausness (talk) 19:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Result was "keep" (by default), but with reservations. I've expanded it a bit but it needs more work, especially references. Enaidmawr (talk) 23:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Pointless list?
Any suggestions what to do with this stub: List of Welsh Christians? I've left my comment and suggestions on the Talk page. Enaidmawr (talk) 23:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

"Within historic Monmouthshire"
Hi team,

Can I make you aware of a few (un-summarised) changes made by which, for example, have introduced the wording "within the historic boundaries of Monmouthshire" before modern counties are used as locators. Long-term issue that I thought this team might want to resolve. There is guidance at WP:PLACE and WP:UKCITIES. --Jza84 | Talk  00:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Surprised he didn't write "within the sacrosanct boundaries...". Thanks for bringing this to our attention. IMHO it's completely unacceptable, of course, and should be reverted. This issue of edits that give priority to the "historical" counties and give the impression that they still exist today is becoming a tedious waste of time and resources and needs settling once and for all. Enaidmawr (talk) 17:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Flat Holm at GAC
Just to let you know Flat Holm is currently a candidate for GA. On this project page it says "recognized as good articles or are currently under review for good article status" but it didn't feel right to add it there & most projects have a separate section for GAC as with candidates for FA. &mdash; Rod talk 19:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The nomination still showed as redlink. Agathoclea (talk) 21:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Please see Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-06-22 United Kingdom
I hope ya'll can give us your imput. GoodDay (talk) 21:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
 * The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
 * The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
 * A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot  ( Disable )  21:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Degree of use of Welsh placenames
I've seen various lists of Welsh names for [what are now] English places, and presume that these have few if any outright mistakes. But the fact that a place that's now in England at one time had a name in Welsh in itself doesn't tell me whether the Welsh name is now in frequent (let alone standard) use within unaffected conversation in Welsh between educated native speakers of Welsh, or whether it's a/the standard written form. I'm sure that articles in Wikipedia should at least attempt to distinguish between routinely used names on the one hand and historical curios on the other, even though I presume that there's a complex spectrum between these extremes. I don't speak Welsh at all and moreover am not in Britain, so I have trouble starting to investigate the answer to my own question. I've raised this matter here and disinterested-but-interested parties are most welcome to join in. -- Hoary (talk) 05:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Poll on merging Subdivisions of the United Kingdom to Countries of the United Kingdom
A poll is talking place on Subdivisions of the United Kingdom and Countries of the United Kingdom. The Merger proposal is here, and is where all the options (merge, redirect to or from etc) can be voted for. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: The new article is "Countries" of the United Kingdom, by the way - not "counties", as it it may first appear.--Matt Lewis (talk) 13:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Rating
Do we have a selection of people on the WikiWales Project that actively rate Welsh pages, I have a few hundred pages that would like to be rated or re-rated, but am unsure who is out there hunting down and rating our work. I don't want to rate them myself as that seems dodgy. Who do we turn to, especially if we think they have been rated incorrectly? And if we don't have a body we trust, should we set one up; a group of people with good Welsh knowledge divided into geography, arts, sport, music, history, TV, film, etc. By a second party rating pages it also helps stop people who have no knowledge of Wales Speedy deleting page sof interest. Anyone, and I mean anyone, with an opinion please answer to this as there appears to be little cohesion bringing thee Draig Goch together.FruitMonkey (talk) 23:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi there FruitMonkey, I'm just in the process of rewriting the intro to the History of Wales article myself. I would rather it be reviewed by a trusted group, as you suggest, prior to publication, than publish and have it savaged afterwards. It's a good idea. Dai caregos (talk) 10:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup
Currently, 1831 articles are assigned to this project, of which 308, or 16.8%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 2008-07-14.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place a template on your project page.

If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 17:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Related WP: Wikipedia:BISLES (British Isles Terminology task force)
I've added this new task force to the 'Related projects' (its actually a sub of WP:GEOG). --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion?
I'm trying to improve coverage of Jesus College, Oxford - the "Welsh college" - and a couple of potentially interesting articles about its history are in this series, which I don't have ready access to. If someone can get hold of them and would be willing to scan some pages for me, please drop me a line. Thanks, BencherliteTalk 08:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Help with Severn Barrage
Is anyone able to take a look at the Severn Barrage article. It covers an important and topical issue, but the article is stuffed full of cleanup tags. Attention from those with engineering, environmental, economic or other relevant interests, or those who can give editing help to bring it within the Manual of Style, would be great.&mdash; Rod talk 12:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Message for those who review WikiWales articles
Could the people who review the WikiWales pages, please reply to this mail. I would like to know if those who have taken it upon themselves in the past to look after the pages still actually respond. I'm finding response rates low, and this could be because the people have left Wikipedia and we are leaving all the work to one or two individuals. There could also be a new group of people hungry to take up the baton, who feel there is already a body out there working and don't come foreward when they are actually needed. Hope this is not too forward but I've noticed that the pages requesting reviews aren't getting hit either. Thanks. FruitMonkey (talk) 00:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've done the ones that were listed as requesting an assessment; some had already been assessed without being removed from the list (probably because the reviewer came to the article via a different route). Assessment isn't a big deal and anyone can do it, although nothing higher than a B-class can be awarded by this project directly. BencherliteTalk 09:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the message, I take it it's good practice not to review your own work? FruitMonkey (talk) 09:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

GB or GB & NI?
Please see: Thanks.--Mais oui! (talk) 14:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Requested move

Bryn Terfel
Given Bryn's place amongst the highest echelons of globally important classical singers, let alone his ginormous crossover appeal, this page is in a pretty woeful state, eg the survey of his career has nothing from 1998–2007! I tried, using google, to add some detail—I got the list of his roles from his agent's website—but really the page needs a lot of attention from someone who both knows and cares. I noticed from the talk page that it hasn't yet come under your umbrella/auspices, and was surprised  almost - instinct 22:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Uniform names for articles on numbers in different languages
The following articles do not cover any pure numeral system where the symbols and notations are clearly defined, instead they cover how numbers are used in the respective languages. I have proposed all of them be moved. Please discuss HERE.


 * Names of numbers in English → Numbers in English
 * Chinese numerals → Numbers in Chinese
 * Japanese numerals → Numbers in Japanese
 * Korean numerals → Numbers in Korean
 * Welsh numerals → Numbers in Welsh
 * Proto-Indo-European numerals → Numbers in Proto-Indo-European

Thank you. --Voidvector (talk) 07:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Proposed merger of "Category:Criminal law of Wales"
There is a proposal going on at "Categories for discussion/Log/2008 September 15" over whether "Category:Criminal law of Wales" should be merged into "Category:English criminal law" on the ground that the criminal law of England and Wales has been a unified system since 1542 and the latter is the more common term. The alternative is to rename "Category:English criminal law" to "Category:Criminal law of England and Wales". Your comments are welcome. — Cheers, Jack Lee  –talk– 18:02, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Wales
Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Request to lower importance
Could someone quickly check the following articles, as I believe they have been rated too highly? I wouldn't like to lower them without discussion as I may be missing knowledge on the subjects.


 * Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion
 * Ronnie Williams
 * Gwyn Thomas (poet)
 * Pembrokeshire Coast Path
 * Welsh Bicknor
 * Aled Jones

As articles that receive very few hits, I have difficulty understanding how that are rated as importantly as the national anthem, Welsh Dragon or Harlech Castle. Thanks, FruitMonkey (talk) 14:59, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest downgrading Welsh Bicknor to Mid or Low (in line with its score on WikiProject UK geography) - it's a small and fairly unremarkable village (in England!), albeit with quite an interesting history in terms of the national boundary. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Ghmyrtle, will take this into account. I'll wait a few days to see if there are any other viewpoints, as I don't want any changes becoming a ping-pong game of regrading. If we seem to have a consenus on this page I'll reclassify then. Cheers again for your opinion. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:51, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I must admit I've never really understood this rating system anyway. It all seems a bit arbitary. Regarding the above articles, I'd point out that the Cymmrodorion is (I think) the oldest existing Welsh society and Gwyn Thomas is arguably the best known and most influential Welsh-language poet; both are more important than Aled Jones, IMHO! As for the other three on the list, I agree they they should be "downgraded". Looking over the category for just a minute or two I noted a few articles notable by their absence, e.g. the Mabinogion, Llywelyn ap Gruffudd, Aneirin and Taliesin, the three key medieval kingdoms of Gwynedd, Powys and Deheubarth, R. S. Thomas, etc. I appreciate it's not easy deciding what goes in and what's left out (should "hits" be the only or even the main criteria?), but I think the selection should be expanded and given more breadth and depth, so to speak. Enaidmawr (talk) 23:26, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Good points raised Enaidmawr. Taliesin and Llewellyn ap Gruffudd are in the Top ranking articles, but the fact that the Mabinogion is missing is strange. Normally there are two ways articles can get high or top ratings. The actual importance of the article in the given field, The Mabinogion for example; and then the number of hits the page gets, say Katherine Jenkins (12,500 a month), but how many hits are high I don't know. I also think the major medieval kingdoms whould all be high importance. But maybe as a group we should look at the rankings again. Thanks for your comments and I'll add Aled Jones to the requests for downgrading too as I agree with you. FruitMonkey (talk) 06:40, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd agree with downgrading Williams (low), and Welsh Bicknor (low, most Welsh places are in this). Agree with Enaidmawr re Cymmrodorion and Thomas; personally, I think Aled Jones is a high-importance article given his position as a high-profile Welsh broadcaster in the UK.  As for the coastal path, perhaps mid, but it's a National Trail of some significance and so I wouldn't really quibble with high.  The rating system is effectively arbitrary as there are no specific WP:WALES guidelines for what's important - perhaps we should try formulating some thoughts? BencherliteTalk 06:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no particular time in following discussions here at the moment but so far I always used mid for 'towns' and the rest as low apart from places if particular interest. I agree there could be more specific guideline. Agathoclea (talk) 09:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Please, please, please don't take the below as what I think should be the WikiWales assessment standards, its just a kind of jumping off point to start a conversation about what path should be followed. I've only had a look at places and people, so no mythology, cuisine, literature, music, structures, etc. All views appreciated. Thanks, FruitMonkey (talk) 19:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Importance standards
Importance standards are intended to indicate to Project Wales members what editing priority should be given to certain articles. The top priority articles are those believed to be the most widely read and/or are of an agreed cultural significance.
 * Importance is not an honour to be fought over nor can it be used to compare fields from two varying subject areas.
 * Importance should also be considered from the subject’s standing in relation to Wales and not in its importance in other fields.

The following are initial suggestions taken from past assessments carried out by members of Wikipedia.

Places
 * Top
 * The country and its historic counties
 * Wales, Glamorgan, Dyfed, Powys, etc
 * Principal cities
 * Cardiff, Swansea, Wrexham, etc
 * High
 * Towns of historic significance, be it cultural, industrial, religious or as a seat of learning
 * Llanelli, Merthyr Tydfil, Saint Davids, Lampeter, etc.
 * Verifiable Old Kingdoms, pre and post the Saxon Invasion
 * Existing Counties
 * Important regions
 * Brecon Beacons, Snowdonia, Rhondda, Anglesey
 * Important geographic features
 * Mount Snowdon, River Taff,
 * Mid
 * Electoral Wards
 * Other towns
 * Low
 * Most other villages, hamlets, etc

People
 * Top
 * Individuals synonymous with Wales
 * St David, Owain Glyndwr, Dylan Thomas
 * High
 * Individuals representative of Wales and its advancement culturally, religiously or politically who are at the echelon of their field.
 * Anthony Hopkins, Ryan Giggs, Aneurin Bevan, John Charles, Tommy Cooper
 * Mid
 * Welsh Individuals who are important within their field. Including Olympic medal winning athletes, winners of the Victoria Cross, international rugby and football captains, religious leaders, politicians, composers of famous Welsh works, engineers and architects of important Welsh structures, Musicians of singles or albums to reach No 1. in Britain or the US, comedians and entertainers of longevity, minor Welsh Kings.
 * Low
 * Sports people who have represented their country, minor Welsh saints, musicians, business people, chefs, presenters, architects, industrialists

Assessing category pages
I have been doing some assessment of the backlog of WP:WALES pages using the category links. Is there any guidance on whether and how Category pages should be included? For example Category:Unassessed-Class Wales articles contains a link to Category talk:Castles in Wales. Undoubtedly this is an important category, and it is marked as High importance. But should it be of class List, DAB or Start (for example). Or should it not be in the assessment at all as its not a real user-editted page? I had a search around in other projects but did not find any guidance. Welsh (talk) 18:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think Class=Category is generally used. —  Tivedshambo  (t/c) 19:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks; on further investigation, plus trial and error, the syntax is class=cat, unlike some other WikiProjects. This puts the page into the relevant categories, though the pages are excluded from the stats. I will reflect this on the WP:Wales/Assessment page. Welsh (talk) 09:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Missing geographical coordinates
Many Wales articles are missing geographical coordinates. Finding the latitude and longitude of locations, and entering coordinates into articles is straightforwards, and explained at Geocoding how-to for WikiProject members. Having coordinates on articles mean that they turn up in GoogleMaps, MultiMap and other such places which link to wikipedia based on geo-coordinates.

It is now possible to get lists of Wales articles that have no geographical coordinates via CatScan, for example:


 * Wales articles missing geo-coordinates.

Alternatively, if CatScan is down or very slow, you can find them by looking through Category:United Kingdom articles missing geocoordinate data.

The articles in the lists above are currently marked with coord missing templates, which need replacing with filled in coord templates containing their latitude/longitude data (or else have lat&long entered into the infobox).

There are about 155 articles missing coords - I hope you'll consider adding coordinates so as to make Wales articles more visible on the web. thanks --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

A5 road (Great Britain) to A5 road (United Kingdom)
Request for assistance/opinion related to the move (by me)of A5 road (Great Britain) to A5 road (United Kingdom). I moved the page after noticing the reference to A5(road) on several Wales articles on my watchlist were being changed to A5 road (Great Britain) on Welsh locals. These articles make no mention of being in Great Britain, only Wales. So it seemed confusing to all of a suddend have a reference to GB. I saw no request for input prior to the edits being made, just a whole lot of edits by one user. The same user has even changed the reference to A5 (road) to A5 road (Great Britain) on the Welsh Wikipedians Noticeboard. So now on my talk page I have been left a nasty note to move the article back. Opinions please? Thanks in advance for your help. &#8734;&#9788;Geaugagrrl (T) / (C) 04:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well another lesson learned by this WikiFaerie about geography and road naming across the pond. Thanks for the kind explanation from Jongleur100 and the page move assistance from Badgernet.  The page is moved back now.  &#8734;&#9788;Geaugagrrl (T) / (C) 12:23, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposed category rename
FYI, I have proposed that be renamed to, for consistency with ,  and. Please add any comments you may have to the discussion. DH85868993 (talk) 20:43, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Literature
Thinking that there needs to be a section on literature in the main Wales article, I looked at Welsh literature and Anglo-Welsh literature and was, frankly, shocked at how inadequate both the articles are - for example, barely a mention of Dylan Thomas in either. I'm no expert on literature and am not going to become one either, but surely someone should give some priority to improving those articles which, after all, cover one of the country's greatest areas of achievement. Ghmyrtle (talk) 00:01, 16 November 2008 (UTC) Given discussions here and here, can I suggest we coordinate an approach on this page? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC) Comments so far are:
 * I find it confusing as it is - the first line in particular suggests it can be both Welsh and English - clearly the content just covers Welsh. Perhaps Welsh literature could be a disambiguation page to Welsh-language literature and Anglo-Welsh literature? --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:47, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That seems reasonable to me. garik (talk) 16:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I've never visited this page [Anglo-Welsh literature] as I didn't realise what it was supposed to contain! A more appropriate name would be Welsh literature in the English language (or Literature of Wales in English), and in that context I agree it is very poor at the moment. The Welsh literature article should then be Welsh literature written in the Welsh language (or Literature of Wales in Welsh). welsh (talk) 08:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The term "Anglo-Welsh literature" is well-known, according to the Encyclopedia of Wales it was promoted by Idris Bell in the 20s, but has tended to be replaced by "Welsh writing in English" since the 80s.Pondle (talk) 09:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That may be so - but to an ordinary welsh bloke it sound more of an academic term and is not obvious unless you were in the know. I assumed it refered to some kind of obscure mixed-language writing. How do other multi-language culture articles address this? welsh (talk) 10:02, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This is one example. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * ...and this is another. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:31, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * ...and this. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:36, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

An interesting essay is here. As the suggestion I made in May on has some support here (I've been focusing elsewhere since I suggested it), I'll make some variants as proposals in here. Perhaps people could either support or develop them. I don't have a huge amount of time to develop the articles etc, but am happy to spend some time on it. The subject clearly needs developing. --Matt Lewis (talk) 10:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Disam page for Welsh literature - proposal 1
We make Literature of Wales a simple disambiguation page* that points to:


 * Literature of Wales (Welsh language)
 * Literature of Wales (English language)

Redirect pages Welsh literature, Welsh-language literature and Anglo-Welsh literature can redirect to their respective articles.


 * support --Matt Lewis (talk) 10:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - seems like the simplest solution.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * ...but slightly modified to accept in part Enaidmawr's suggestion below. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * support - Pondle (talk) 11:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * support --  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 12:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * support -- We should strive towards clarity, this is far more understandable. FruitMonkey (talk) 12:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * support -- welsh (talk) 12:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * support garik (talk) 12:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * support  Geaugagrrl  ☎    05:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

* New note: unless anyone objects, the disam page in this proposal can also be an introduction to the literature of Wales, per Enaidmawr's 'proposal 3' below, and Literature of Wales (Latin) can be offered as well. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Enaidmawr appears to have a handle on this and needs to be supported. Proposal 1 seems clear, but the Latin and any high languages must also be taken into account. FruitMonkey (talk) 19:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Disam page for Welsh literature - proposal 2
We make Literature of Wales a simple disambiguation page that points to:


 * Welsh-language literature
 * Anglo-Welsh literature

Redirect pages Welsh literature, Literature of Wales (Welsh language) and Literature of Wales (English language) can redirect to their respective articles.

Disam page for Welsh literature - proposal 3
There are some good points made above and on the face of it Proposal 1 seems commonsense. I agree with it to the extent that there should indeed be seperate articles on the Welsh and English language literatures of Wales. However, I think a Literature of Wales page should be retained as a general overview and synopsis, and that for several reasons:
 * 1) In the modern period there is an overlap, with a significant number of authors who have their feet in both camps, so to speak, even if most write mainly in one of our two languages.
 * 2) Nobody seems to have considered our third literary language, i.e. Latin. This includes not only Nennius, early chronicles, and Geoffrey of Monmouth's romantic novel history, but quite a number of later writers of the Renaissance and 17th-18th centuries. Again boundaries are crossed: Historia Regum Britanniae was adapted (rather than slavishly translated) into Welsh, the History of Gruffudd ap Cynan exists in both Latin (the 'lost' original was recently rediscovered) and Welsh, etc.
 * 3) An overview of the literature of Wales as a whole, from the earliest inscriptions to the present-day, is neccessary for a proper appreciation of the three streams of Welsh literature - Welsh, Latin and English - which can not be properly appreciated apart (if you wish to understand the poetry of R. S. Thomas, for instance, you need to be acquainted with Welsh-language literature).

I suggest retaining the Literature of Wales page as an overview with brief subsections for the Welsh and English (and Latin, much needed!) pages. More work in the short term, maybe, but I think it's the only solution. Enaidmawr (talk) 21:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I think Enaidmawr makes very fair points here, but in my view they can be accommodated by revising and slightly expanding the Literature of Wales page proposed by Matt Lewis (proposal 1) above, so that it is more than a simple disambiguation page and gives a necessary overview - which recognises the interrelationships between literature in the various languages, while directing the reader to more specific pages on literature in Welsh and in English (and in Latin if appropriate). Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It occurred to me afterwards that their may be a need for slightly more than a 'simple disam page' for Literature of Wales (as I hinted below) - the above are good reasons why. As Ghmyrtle said, it will be easy enough to extend it from Proposal 1. I'll add it as a note to proposal 1 - I'm sure no-one will object. It would easier than people voting again, I think. --Matt Lewis (talk) 16:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion for Welsh literature proposals
Feel free to add another proposal above. There could be a case for making an intro to the disam page, rather than simply offering a choice of the articles. --Matt Lewis (talk) 10:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

A decision?
There seems to be a strong consensus here for moving to Proposal 1 as modified by Enaidmawr's suggestion - that is, making Literature of Wales a disambiguation page that also gives a brief introductory overview of the literature of Wales, and points to: Assuming there is no further discussion on this - and given Matt Lewis' regrettable but understandable "retirement" (hopefully temporary), I propose making these moves over the weekend. All we need to do then is expand the content.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Literature of Wales (Welsh language)
 * Literature of Wales (English language)
 * Literature of Wales (Latin language)
 * Agree and it would make a nice change from clearing up vandalism and discussions about "country" -- Snowded  TALK  08:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Done, but I'm sure I'll be told off for not doing it correctly. The article Literature of Wales (Latin language) obviously doesn't exist until some content is created, but can be added to the disamb page in due course.  It seems to me that Literature of Wales (English language) is particularly weak, but I'm not going to work on it as it's outside my areas of interest I'm afraid. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

How the move is carried out
Wait! If it's been decided to move the page (or the bulk of the contents of a page) to a new title, it has to be done right so that the page history is moved along with the page, for GFDL attribution for the Wikipdian contributors. Apparently this move was done by cut-and-paste. I'm listing it at Cut and paste move repair holding pen. An administrator will have to fix it. Next time, when moving a page, please use the move button at the top of the page; this moves the page history along with the page. ☺ Coppertwig(talk) 21:34, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposed category deletion
I've proposed Category:Landmarks_in_Wales for deletion, since this category seems to a POV collection of random buildings and landforms. I don't think that it can be made NPOV.Pondle (talk) 11:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Archival
Normally i have found that things over 30days are normally archived. Maybe i was wrong on the things in October but the others are so i am rearchiving the September ones. Simply south (talk) 17:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Depends on the topic, I think. This isn't always that heavily frequented (seems to be up and down, like most wikiprojects), so sometimes sections/questions etc can slide. Maybe we should leave it to anyone who wants to re-insert stuff. It's easily done.--Matt Lewis (talk) 18:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Missing Geographic Coordinates #2
Articles missing geographic coordinates have now been divided into subcategories, as follows:


 *  articles in Category:Anglesey articles missing geocoordinate data
 *  articles in Category:Carmarthenshire articles missing geocoordinate data
 *  articles in Category:Ceredigion articles missing geocoordinate data
 *  articles in Category:Clwyd articles missing geocoordinate data
 *  articles in Category:Glamorgan articles missing geocoordinate data
 *  articles in Category:Gwent articles missing geocoordinate data
 *  articles in Category:Gwynedd articles missing geocoordinate data
 *  articles in Category:Pembrokeshire articles missing geocoordinate data
 *  articles in Category:Powys articles missing geocoordinate data

Coords are useful for making the article appear on Google Maps & many other mapping services; and they allow our users to click through to see the article subject location on a map. There's a short guide to on how to add geocodes to articles ... it really is very easy to do. I hope you'll take some time to ensure that Wales is as well represented as it can be on wikipedia by fixing up the listed articles. thanks --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for this work. ~ Geaugagrrl talk 03:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ Ceredigion is clean. ~ Geaugagrrl talk 03:08, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ Ceredigion again. AledJames (talk) 17:02, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Pembrokeshire. AledJames (talk) 15:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Requested moves that may interest project members
A number of articles have been nominated for a name change which involves changing the capitalization scheme used. They are:
 * Special Protection Area,
 * Area of Conservation,
 * Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty,
 * Site of Special Scientific Interest, and
 * Special Area of Conservation

(the links point to the discussion of the requested moves.) Members may wish to comment on the requests both for and against the proposed moves. I'm not sure where else notices could be posted to get as wide a discussion as possible, both for and against the requests), and so would appreciate people identifying appropriate projects and posting similar messages there.  DDStretch    (talk)  08:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)