Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales/Archive 2010

GA reassessment of Guto Puw
I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. I have found a number of concerns with the article which you can see at Talk:Guto Puw/GA1. I have placed the article on hold whilst these are fixed. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:18, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Template:Wales-writer-stub
Needs attention as its image has disappeared ! GrahamHardy (talk) 13:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems to have been fixed but tnx anyway! Enaidmawr (talk) 22:50, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Article reassessments
Does anyone actually look here? There is one article that has been waiting for reassessment for 15 months, and most of the others have been there for over 6 months! Skinsmoke (talk) 05:23, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merger of Cardiganshire and Ceredigion
It is proposed to merge Cardiganshire and Ceredigion into one article. Please submit your comments on this proposal. Thank you. ~ Geaugagrrl talk 17:34, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Merger now complete. Skinsmoke (talk) 20:19, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Architecture of Wales
The page Architecture of Wales is blank, and there isn't a great deal on the Wales page either on architecture. Is there a user who feels up to the challenge of writing 2-4 paragraphs about Welsh architecture? Something akin to England? Please make contact with me if so. :) --Jza84 | Talk  13:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement
This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 04:08, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Image request
I'm currently writing an article on Sally Amis, sister of Martin Amis, both of whom were born Swansea. I'm wondering if any Wikipedian living in the area would be willing to take a photograph of the house they were born in. It is 24 The Grove, Uplands, Swansea. There are no free images at all of Sally, her family, or her home, so it would be nice to have something. SlimVirgin TALK  contribs 15:06, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Geoffrey of Monmouth
An anonymous user has been expressing concerns at Talk:Geoffrey of Monmouth about the current treatment of the subject. He or she evidently feels that Geoffrey has been given an unfair shake by the scholars. There's a lot of the old "Welsh vs. Saxon" routine and argument from ignorance regarding the "ancient book in the British tongue" Geoffrey claimed to have been translating. Input from knowledgeable users will be welcome.--Cúchullain t/ c 18:25, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Welsh International Cup
Are there any experts on Welsh football out there? I am currently working on expanding the article on Welsh international Moses Russell. On this web-page and this there are pictures of a medal awarded to him. The inscription reads "TLC In commemoration of Moses Russell winning Welsh International Cup 1912". The only other references I can find to the "Welsh International Cup" are for a Midlands based youth club who won the cup in 2006 and an Indian side competing in it in 2008 ; these references would imply that it is a youth tournament, although whether or not it is a direct continuation of the Cup "won" by Russell in 1912 is not clear. At that time he would have been 23/24 so was no longer a youth. In 1912, he was on the books of Merthyr Town, who were playing in the Southern League Second Division at that time; there is no mention of this cup tournament on their page.

Does anyone have any idea what "TLC" means, or to what it refers?

One possibility does occur to me: as Russell won his first Welsh International Cap on 2 March 1912, is it possible that the engraver simply made an error? Any comments/explanations would be most welcome. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 07:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC) p.s. This duplicates an inquiry that I have made at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football.

Tolkien's One Ring in Synod of Brefi?
Re article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Brefi

"It is also said that the synod was called while Saint Cadoc, Abbot of Llancarfan, was away in Brittany. In disgust, he refused to return for many years. When he finally did return, it was in hopes to locate the One Ring forged to rule them, or, alternatively, to guide them."

Funny but not very scholarly —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.111.5.33 (talk) 20:48, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Fixed, thanks for letting us know. BencherliteTalk 20:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Getting onto the Main Page next year?
It strikes me as a bit disappointing that, on this day of all days, the featured article on the Main Page is of something that is close to Wales and visible from Wales, but clearly not part of Wales. (One might almost think that the Somerset editors were being deliberately provocative - but of course I'm not suggesting that...) It's common for featured articles on the main page to relate in some way to the day on which they appear - so could we not collectively come up with a plan to get a FA, on an important Welsh subject, onto the main page for St David's Day in 2011? It shouldn't be too difficult to come up with good ideas, and if several editors work together it should not be that difficult to write such an article (though personally I have no experience at all of working on GAs and FAs, which is an area I've consciously avoided up to now). Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * How about both Wales and St David? asking for a review of both now would be a start.  -- Snowded  TALK  10:03, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * St David or the Welsh national flag would be easier to nail down IMO, but be thankful the the FA wasn't about pigs. If you haven't noticed many of the DYKs are pork related as 1 March is also American National Pig Day. I managed to squeeze a Welsh DYK onto the page in the early hours, but it was a poor show. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:46, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Welsh art was also on DYK from midnight UK time, but in the evening for Patagonia. Johnbod (talk) 02:13, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a point of interest, the Senedd is currently a Featured Article candidate. Seth Whales (talk) 22:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Rob Terry (Welsh Language)
Can someone create the Rob Terry page in the Welsh language please. I have tried already and have been banned from editingYoundbuckerz (talk) 10:53, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

New articles
Hello all, over the past few days/weeks I've created several structure stubs, mostly old motte-and-bailey castles in Wales that have since eroded or been built back over. I'm interested in Wales and particularly Welsh history but not from anywhere near there myself (I'm an American) so I'd welcome anyone taking a look at them, adding sources, converting my U.S. English or anything else that might need done at the following: Bleddfa Castle, Pen y Clawdd Castle, Castell Arnallt, Castell Aberlleiniog, Gaer Penrhôs and Caer y Tŵr. I'm going to add myself to the project's membership as well. &mdash; e. ripley\talk 23:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Welcome to WPW from a fellow American. Great start, and please keep up the hard work.  Have you been using Google Books for sources?  For a sample of other work on Welsh Castles, please see Cardiff Castle and take note of the infobox and navboxes.  Each of the castle articles you've added should also be noted in the corresponding Principal Areas of Wales templates.  I can put you in touch with the author of Castles in Wales if you'd like?  Send me an email from my userpage, and we'll get that going. Don't be afraid to make a mistake (there's plenty of folks here that will let you know when you do!) and don't stop editing.  ~ Geaugagrrl talk 22:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Dueling Templates in Neath Port Talbot
Template:Neath Port Talbot has been saved from deletion *whew* (thanks for the help, FruitMonkey). In distributing the populated template, I discovered that a lot of the articles start with an electorate ward infobox rather than a UK Places Infobox. Isn't this more appropriately part of a government section instead of at the top of the article? A bit of work to do here, if someone wants to take it on. I'll try to chip away at it, too. Also, there is a communities in Wales navbox that's been created and distributed, and a separate template just for electoral wards. Sounds like some consolidation is in order? What is the process for choosing which navboxes should be used? ~ Geaugagrrl talk 23:10, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Welsh people of English descent
There exists a category Category:Welsh_people_of_English_descent. It's been around a while, and is populated by only two articles. Personally I find it pointless. Wales and England are so intrinsically linked that the category could be huge; plus where do you draw a line, parents, a parent, grandparents? It has so may flaws. Anyone else think this is a candidate for deletion? FruitMonkey (talk) 22:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. The border has always been porous; according to one study I read, only 35 per cent of Welsh people have a typically Welsh surname. So the majority of the Welsh population may qualify for inclusion in this category!--Pondle (talk) 23:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Has been deleted. FruitMonkey (talk) 19:00, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Template:Location map Wales Cardiff
Just so you know I've made a map of Cardiff. See it in use St David's Hotel & Spa. You may wish to start using it to display places on in Cardiff articles.... Dr. Blofeld       White cat 15:46, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Good work. How do you get the coordinates though?  Welsh leprechaun  14:03, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Place Names
I can't remember if this has been brought up before, but if giving a place name, do we refer to its current or previous county. For example, if someone was born in Blackwood when it was Monmouthshire, do we cite birth place as Blackwood, Monmouthshire, or its current county - Blackwood, Caerphilly. I'd really appreciate some guidance. Thanks  Welsh leprechaun  14:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * My advice in those circumstances, for what it's worth, would be to link to Blackwood, Monmouthshire . Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:26, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Merger of Welsh Dragon into Flag of Wales
I've recently tried to expand the article Flag of Wales, but it has been difficult to expand without slipping into the Welsh Dragon. The articles cover extremely similar ground, and I for one feel that this limits both articles. I understand that this may be a difficult merge for some people, but it would help push the article forward. Any thoughts would be gratefully welcomed. FruitMonkey (talk) 19:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Councils vs Places
UK Local Authorities are inherently notable. Yet many council names are currently redirects to articles about places; which are not the same thing at all. I feel we should do the same for all authorities which don't at the moment have their own articles. For example, I recently split Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council out from Metropolitan Borough of Walsall. I started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom; what are your thoughts? Andy Mabbett (User: Pigsonthewing ); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 11:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Help requested: River Wnion or Afon Wnion
Hi. There was a brief back and forth just now on the Dolgellau article on whether or not "River Wnion" or "Afon Wnion" is the better term in English. Does anyone know if there's an official line on this (that is, do Ordnance Survey, or the government, prefer one term over the other in English)? Or have we settled on a Wikipedia convention on this kind of thing? It would also be useful to have some sources. Unfortunately, I'm not in the best position right now to do the research myself. Apologies! garik (talk) 14:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * On Streetmap, it is named the Afon Wnion. The Encyclopedia of Wales mentions it twice, but avoids both river and afon, referring to it just as the Wnion, so that's no help. Remember, if no one calls it River Wnion, then we don't translate it to English just because it's in a different tongue. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * FWIW "River Wnion" gets about 3 times as many hits on Google Books as Afon Wnion, and 6 times as many standard Google hits.--Cúchullain t/ c 18:30, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The "no one/everyone calls it x" principle isn't very helpful here, unfortunately. Clearly a lot of sources call it "River Wnion" and several call it "Afon Wnion".  As someone from the area, I think most local people (like the Encyclopedia) just call it the Wnion.  It's certainly not typically referred to in Dolgellau as either "Afon Wnion" or "River Wnion", unless you're talking to someone who might not know it's a river.  In those cases, I'd expect "River Wnion" in English and "Afon Wnion" in Welsh. Maybe we should just go with "Wnion": the context makes clear it's a river.  garik (talk) 19:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Copyright of Welsh Dragon
I have uploaded an image of a Welsh dragon, and I would be interested if the emblem is copyrightable, community input (especially from this project) would be most welcome at Fasach Nua (talk) 13:20, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Scope of Template:Economy and Industry of Cardiff
Comments from editors would be welcome in the discussion here. Thanks,--Pondle (talk) 17:30, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

forts around Milford haven
there are two more forts to add to your list 1 Dale Fort 2 Defenable barracks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.59.149 (talk) 04:54, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Copyright of Welsh Dragon
I have uploaded an image of a Welsh dragon, and I would be interested if the emblem is copyrightable, community input (especially from this project) would be most welcome at Fasach Nua (talk) 13:20, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Scope of Template:Economy and Industry of Cardiff
Comments from editors would be welcome in the discussion here. Thanks,--Pondle (talk) 17:30, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

forts around Milford haven
there are two more forts to add to your list 1 Dale Fort 2 Defenable barracks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.59.149 (talk) 04:54, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

AFD notice: Sport in Anglesey
At Articles for deletion/Sport in Anglesey. East of Borschov 12:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

AFD notice: Evan Vaughan Anwyl
At Articles for deletion/Evan Vaughan Anwyl. ~ Geaugagrrl talk 10:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Wales
For those who may have missed it, I have placed the article for Wales onto the list for GA status. This will take a while to be picked up, but I hope a review will focus minds and help this project get the most important article up to a GA article. Thanks to all those who have posted positive messages to this action. FruitMonkey (talk) 17:03, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar - Part II
Can we go with this award? Or are there any objections? FruitMonkey (talk) 20:33, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Wales articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release
Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Wales articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (&diams;) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 23:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Featured Portal nomination
The Law of England and Wales portal has been nominated for featured status at Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Law of England and Wales, and I am notifying related WikiProjects as requested in the nomination instructions. All comments for and against its promotion are welcome, ideally with reference to the featured portal criteria. If anyone knows of any decent law-related Welsh articles that could be included, I'd be delighted to hear about them. BencherliteTalk 11:39, 19 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Bump, no comments from anyone in two weeks. Anyone interested?  Thanks, BencherliteTalk 15:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Politics
I dont fully understand Wikipedia but think this article National Assembly for Wales election 2011 is a very important article considering the elction was next May, and really with so many more candidates being selected the info boxes shpu;d be filled in quite a bit more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.160.174 (talk) 02:25, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Aberdaron
Aberdaron was promoted to good article on 7 November 2010. Thanks to everyone who helped it through the assessment process! Skinsmoke (talk) 08:28, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Concern about Pembrokeshire articles
I'm concerned about the quality of the Pembrokeshire articles, many of them have questionable sources and some of them have entire sections completely without sources. Are there any other Pembrokeshire based/knowledgeable users who would be willing to increase the quality of these pages? PrettyxVacant (talk) 21:07, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Hedd Wyn edit war
There seems to be a bit of an edit war going on at Hedd Wyn (film) over whether it should be called a Welsh or a British film. It's getting rather heated and childish (see, for example, here and here). I think it would be useful to try to establish consensus (one way or the other) in an adult fashion, for which it would probably be helpful to have more editors contributing to the debate. Thanks. garik (talk) 11:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The neutral position, it seems to me, would be for the article text to recognise that, in common with many other things, it is both Welsh and British - as well as stating very clearly that it is a Welsh language film. Flags in infoboxes are generally deprecated, and I think that should be removed.  That leaves the question of whether the "country" in the infobox should be stated as the UK or Wales, which in my view is a matter where there should be consistency across WP and across different projects.  I'm not aware that there is a consistent line everywhere.  One of the participants in the "edit war" has already been warned for incivility and has been blocked for similar offences in the past.  Apart from all that, I'm planning to stay out of the discussion.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That the references for it to be noted as a Welsh film are reliable has been confirmed by the Reliable sources/Noticeboard (see here) who also provided futher references that Wales is a country. There is a Welsh film industry, distinct from the 'British' flim industry. Just as there is Welsh literature and Welsh music. I see no reason to alter the article for some supposed neutrality that will inevitably give a British POV, by airbrushing Wales out of Wikipedia. Daicaregos (talk) 12:36, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The fact that Wales is part of the UK and therefore covered by the term "British" is, in my view, an undeniable statement of reality, and the "neutral position" is to acknowledge that. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It is no more relevant to note that Hedd Wyn is a British film than a European film. It is a Welsh film, as supported by reliable sources. Distinct Welsh film and cinema is acknowledged by the BBC, for example. 'British' is irrelavent in this context. Daicaregos (talk) 13:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Where was the film made? GoodDay (talk) 13:55, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It was made in Wales, GoodDay. With a Welsh writer, director, cast and crew, by a Welsh company and with Welsh funding. But, as it was good/successful, it must be British. plus ça change. Daicaregos (talk) 15:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It was funded by S4C wasn't it? Which is itself funded by the U.K. government, no? Ivor Stoughton (talk) 15:04, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * And Welsh people pay their taxes straight to the Exchequer. What's your point? Daicaregos (talk) 16:12, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The point being that the funding of the film was not as solely and unambiguously Welsh as you suggest. It was funded by S4C which is directly funded by the U.K government, to which Welsh people pay taxes, certainly, but so do English, Scots and Irish. I'd go with the NY Times on this one: Hedd Wyn is a "Welsh language film produced in the United Kingdom". Ivor Stoughton (talk) 19:43, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Other than illustrating the John Donne concept that "no man is an island", Irvine, do you actuaally have a point? All I get so far is you are trying to say that from wherever the money originates somehow makes some special difference for noting a film's country. Are Hollywood films now Colombian? Daicaregos (talk) 20:46, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It does tend to be the case that a film's country (or countries) of origin is (are) determined by where the production funds come from. Hence the Harry Potter films are American, despite all the British talent involved. The correct analogy here seems to me to be with films produced in Quebec, in French. They are classified as Canadian, on Wikipedia and elsewhere. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 20:55, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Not that I necessarily agree with your thesis Irvine, but as S4C is a Welsh company, the funding for the film is Welsh, Q.E.D. Daicaregos (talk) 21:11, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you disagree that the analogy to Quebec is useful to us here? Ivor Stoughton (talk) 21:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Wales is a country, S4C is a Welsh television channel.  If Harry Potter was funded by a British production company then it would be British even if that company raised funding from other countries.  -- Snowded  TALK  21:23, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The Harry Potter series was funded by Warner Bros, and the country of origin is given as "USA" in every film guide I can presently lay my hands on. The country of origin for Hedd Wyn is those sames guides? "U.K.". Ivor Stoughton (talk) 21:29, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree on Harry Potter - Warner Brothers is American. S4C is Welsh.   As I thought I had made clear if Warner Brothers had funding from say Japan, it would not make Harry Potter a Japanese film -- Snowded  TALK  21:34, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Except the relationship between the United States and Japan is not analogous to that between Wales and the U.K., is it? The Quebec/Canada analogy is much more like it. Incidentally, I have to wonder how Hedd Wyn is classifed by the Library of Congress? Ivor Stoughton (talk) 21:40, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * GoodDay, it is a Welsh film. Leave it at that.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:08, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
 * See my talkpage for my views. GoodDay (talk) 16:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Moelfre (hill)


The article Moelfre (hill) has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * unreferenced article with no mention of notability, fails WP:N

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jeepday (talk) 22:47, 30 December 2010 (UTC)