Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Warhammer 40,000/Notability/Main Character debate space

This is an area where the reasons for listing each of the entries in the Warhammer 40,000 article's Notable Figures section. Also, new additions can be proposed here, where their 'adequacy' for main page status can be discussed.

Hopefully this will create greater consensus than we currently have. -- Saberwyn 10:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The Ultimate Consideration
'This list should be kept short, and limited to the characters/figures that have had the greatest involvement in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, as portrayed through the games, background material, and derivative works''.

The combination of these characters should allow readers with little prior knowledge to gain a wide view of the fictional universe, and through it, aspects of the game itself, the game's development over time, and activities/majority opinions of the player community (if possible).

Making an entry

 * 1) Start a new section in the appropriate subsection. Use the character's name as the heading, wikilink if possible.
 * 2) Create a Pro and Con section, by using bolded (''') text
 * 3) List, in bullet form, why the character should be listed as a notable figure (under Pro). Sign each bullet point with three tildes  . If you can think of any reasons why this character might be undesirable for a listing, note these under Con.

Commenting on an entry

 * 1) Edit the appropriate nomination's section
 * 2) * Add points in support or of disapproval to the appropriate section. Three-tilde sign each bullet point.
 * 3) To argue a point already made, use a second-row bullet point (**) and make your claim, remembering to three-tilde sign

The Emperor
Pro Con
 * Guiding light of all of Humanity since the 8th millennium. Responsible for the unification of Humanity during the Great Crusade. Created the Imperium as it is known in the 41st millennium. -- Saberwyn
 * Most well-known figure for all of Humanity's forces in the game, as the Emperor seems to be linked to all aspects of life, from religion to political to military. -- Saberwyn

Horus
Pro Con
 * Significant influence on the state of the fictional universe, first as the leader of the Emperor's armies during the Great Crusade, then as the leader of the rebelling forces during the Horus Heresy. -- Saberwyn

The Chaos Gods
Pro Con
 * The 'evil' entities that caused and motivate the "Galaxy of War" aspect of the 40k universe. -- Saberwyn
 * More 'metaphysical entities' than figures in the history of the game and the universe... 'avatars' of human vice. -- Saberwyn
 * The content and context of the four Gods' articles (in my opinion) is far better conveyed by the paragraph on Chaos in the 40k article's Background#Setting section (two paragraphs). -- Saberwyn
 * I agree. While one might consider them characters, I think more justice could be done with them in the Chaos section. --Falcorian (talk)

Time for a straw poll! 7 days from 21:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC), majority wins:
 * Remove -- Saberwyn 21:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Abstain (ie I have no strong views on this one) --Pak21 22:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Remove --Falcorian (talk) 05:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Remove --Localzuk (talk) 12:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Closing 02:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC). 3 remove, 1 abstain. Removed. -- Saberwyn 02:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Ghazghkull
Pro Con
 * Most significant Ork special character over several editions, along with being one of the first special characters ever. -- Saberwyn
 * Leader of two wars against Armageddon, both of which threatened to severely damage the Imperium if not contained. As a part of this, leader of the largest Ork Waagh!s ever seen in the 40,000 universe, and was able to focus their efforts against a single target. -- Saberwyn
 * Primary agressor figure of the Armageddon3 worldwide campaign. -- Saberwyn
 * Player-character in the Battle for Armageddon boardgame. -- Saberwyn
 * Is ultimately, only an individual commander with no cosmic significance in the setting, not qualitatively different than Warmaster Macaroth or Lord Solar Macharius or Ibram Gaunt. -user:manuelomar2001
 * Has had no impact on the formation of the setting as it stands today. -user:manuelomar2001
 * No, Ghazghkull wasn't around during the Horus Heresy, let alone during the formation of the Warp and the Galaxy. But I still stand by the fact that he caused the Third War for Armageddon, which was the sole focus of a worldwide player campaign, and which in turn has affected the recent development of the game (the repercussions of which form the basis of the Epic:Armageddon game, along with providing the storyline for the "... for Armageddon" dulogy by Jonathon Green). He was also the primary 'bad' character of the 'Battle For Armageddon' boardgame, set around the previous invasion he was the leader of, and which led to him becoming one of the two first official special characters for the game. For a mortal fictional character, that looks like a hell of an impact. -- Saberwyn
 * Okay, once *again*, I'm seeing extremly inconsistent guidelines for what's notable and what isn't.  Are we basing it on how much the character has impacted the setting, or on how much the character has impacted the real-life out-of-game gameplay?  That needs to be decided, because right now different characters are getting evaluated on different criteria.  Right now, the only reasons I'm seeing for why Gazz is in this list at all is that he was the title "enemy" commander in a campaign, and that he's a personal favorite of some of the games workshop staffers.   If we're going to put characters in there purely because of the GW press coverage and that they're staff/player favorites, then quite a few other characters need to go on that list as well, most of them Imperial Guard commanders and Space Marine characters.   On the other hand, if we're evaluating it based on what sort of cosmic impact they've had on the background, then he doesn't belong there at all.    If you want to have *both* criteria as reasons to put characters on this list, of course, then we're going to have a really long list, which you don't seem to want.   Either way, though, the special treatment that Gazz is getting to put him on that list needs to stop.   Either the notability criteria need to be amended so that he *and* whatever other characters belong on there can go, or he needs to be removed.
 * In my view, Ghazghkull gets in via being both a long-term special character and the primary aggressor in a worldwide campaign. One or the other wouldn't be enough, but the combination is. You obviously don't agree with this, but as nobody else has objected to his inclusion, it's time to let this one go. Of the five editors who have expressed a view on this subject, four of them explicitly supported Saberwyn's proposal for the main page characters, which I strongly believe makes that a consensus. If anyone else does wish to express a view, then that may change my opinion, but until them I consider this bit of the debate closed. --Pak21 09:26, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "Are we basing it on how much the character has impacted the setting, or on how much the character has impacted the real-life out-of-game gameplay?" The combination thereof. He's the first ever special character for the game, and he was the antagonist of two important events in recent Imperial history, as portrayed in the board game and the worldwide player campaign, the result of which has caused a small but noticable development on the setting and background information released since the conclusion of that game. -- Saberwyn

Its Straw Poll Time! 7 days from 21:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC), simple majority wins
 * Include -- Saberwyn 21:54, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Include --Charax 22:00, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Include --Pak21 22:13, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral Never did seem very notable, but I would support keeping if for no other reason than he's the most notable Ork. Either way really. --Falcorian (talk) 01:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Include --Localzuk (talk) 12:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Closing 02:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC). 4 Include, 1 neurtal Kept Included

Abaddon
Pro Con
 * Protegé of Horus, significant figure during the Horus Heresy. Afterwards, took command of the largest force of Chaos Space Marines, and began to launch the Thirteen Black Crusades against the Imperium. Able to unite the majority of the Chaos Space Marines (along with many other forces) for the most recent of these. -- Saberwyn
 * Most significant Chaos Space Marines special character over several editions of 40k, and appearance as a special character in Battlefleet Gothic (a game devoid of any other special characters). -- Saberwyn
 * Primary agressor figure of the Eye of Terror worldwide campaign. -- Saberwyn
 * Subordinate to Horus. Should we have two Black Legion Space Marine Leaders in this list? -- Saberwyn Conceeded per Pak21. -- Saberwyn 09:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the difference between the Heresy-era Luna Wolves and the present day Black Legion is significant enough not to worry about this too much. --Pak21

Eldrad Ulthran
Proposed: -- Saberwyn 10:40, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Pro Con
 * Most significant Eldar special character. Inclusion covers the four major races of the game (Human, Chaos, Ork, Eldar). -- Saberwyn
 * Historic significance, mainly said to have warned the Emperor of Horus if I remember correctly. --Falcorian (talk)
 * Hasn't led a worldwide campaign against the Imperium. -- Saberwyn
 * Did cause the Second War for Armageddon though. --Falcorian (talk)

Time for a straw poll! 7 days from 05:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC), majority wins:
 * Add --Falcorian (talk) 05:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak add - I'd like to see a little more than "best Eldar" before we stick him in. -- Saberwyn
 * Oppose: "best Eldar" is the strongest reason for adding him, and that isn't good enough, unless we're going to have one for every race. --Pak21 08:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Closing 22:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC). 2 Add, 1 Oppose. Add. --Falcorian (talk) 22:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The Nightbringer and the C'tan
Proposed: -- user:Manuelomar2001 8:00pm, 27 March 2006 (CST)

Pro
 * In the background of the setting, it has had an enourmous impact on the formation of the 40k universe as it stands now.  The Nightbringer is responsible for the fear of Death that every species save for the Orks has. It the original C'tan that enslaved the Necrons.  The image of the Grim Reaper imprinted on the psyche of nearly every major race is a direct result of the terrors the Nightbringer inflicted long ago.  Games Workshop has made the C'tan themselves central to the overarching metaplot of the game universe as a whole, and they are the oldest God-like beings in the 40k universe.   The C'tan (especially the Nightbringer) are indirectly responsible for the Warp being the chaotic hellish place that it is today, as the Old Ones only designed the psychic races that wrecked the Warp as a desperate act to stave off the horrors of the C'tan.  The C'tan are also the only major race that is capable of FTL travel without using the Warp.  In addition, the Nightbringer is one of the most powerful special-character models ever put in the game. --Manuelomar2001

Con
 * While the war between the Old Ones and the C'tan is important to the backstory, the actual effect the C'tan have on the game is pretty small. --Pak21 08:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The war between the Old Ones and the C'tan was only introduced to the backstory in late 3rd Ed development. The C'tan did not exist in any form (fiction, rules, or otherwise) before this point. -- Saberwyn 09:07, 28 March 2006 (UTC).

Notes
 * If this is passed, I think it should be one or the other, not both. (Preferably C'tan, as Nightbringer redirects there)-- Saberwyn 09:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Could this, the Old ones and possibly even Khaine be merged into a "War in Heaven" article? --Charax 12:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Time for a straw poll! 7 days from 05:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC), majority wins:
 * Neutral --Falcorian (talk) 05:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose: no real effect on the game. --Pak21 08:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Closing 22:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC). 1 Oppose, 1 Neutral. Oppose. --Falcorian (talk) 22:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Kaela Mensha Khaine
Proposed: -- user:Manuelomar2001 8:10pm, 27 March 2006 (CST)

Pro
 * Khaine the last surviving God of the Eldar and the heart of thier race. He is also the only non-Chaos "Daemon" model available in the game.   Khaine is the only being in the 40k universe known to have stood in direct combat against one of the Chaos Gods themselves (as opposed to one of thier many underlings) and managed to survive.  When everything in the heart and soul of the Eldar race had become corrupt, everything that Khaine embodies was still pure and untouched by Slaneesh.   His power is the only thing that has allowed the Craftworld Eldar to survive over the ages, and forms the heart of every Craftworld.   In addition, Khaine's model (The Avatar) has been available and part of the game since the 1st edition of Warhammer 40,000. --Manuelomar2001
 * He's hardly "Pure" he was sent insane by the shards of the Nightbringer that embedded themselves in him. See my above suggestion of a "War in Heaven" article. --Charax 12:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you're misunderstanding.  He isn't "pure" in the modern sense of moral purity, at all.  Khaine embodies violence, war, death, and destruction.  He's the pure embodiment of those things, which even Slaneesh couldn't take away from the Eldar. user:manuelomar2001 10:46am 3-28-06

Con
 * If we make a Khaine article, there's really no excuse for not having a Vaul, Isha, Kuernos, Morai-Heg, etc.. series of articles. Perhaps an "Eldar gods" article (which will need to be differentiated from Lovecraft's Elder Gods. --Charax 12:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * There's an important difference, though.  Khaine still lives.  All the other Gods are dead. user:manuelomar2001 10:46am 3-28-06
 * Someone forgot to tell the Laughing God. --Charax 17:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Time for a straw poll! 7 days from 05:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC), majority wins:
 * Do Not Add --Falcorian (talk) 05:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose: less significant than the Chaos gods, who we just voted to remove. --Pak21 08:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Closing 22:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC). 2 Oppose. Oppose. --Falcorian (talk) 22:22, 26 April 2006 (UTC)