Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia/Archive 5

Storm
No 2010 Perth hail storm article yet? All I could find was some vandalism at Trinity College, Perth. It's not like there's been a shortage of news stories to use as sources, and a quick search reveals a few CC-BY shots on Flickr as a start. TRS-80 (talk) 16:16, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * There have been suggestions... but nothing on mainspace yet SatuSuro 16:32, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * If someone wants to start it I'm happy to help out :) ABC and the WAToday article would be a good starting point, and maybe check ministerial media releases. (I'm weighed down with work atm hence why I'm not offering to start it myself :) Orderinchaos 16:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I uploaded some images into commons:Category:2010 Perth hail storm. --Matthiasb (talk) 20:53, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh fantastic. That was going to be my next question. :) Might talk to some of the Youtubers too and see if they would be willing to upload stills of their videos under a CC licence. Orderinchaos 00:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Started - could enthusiasts please help expand the very small stub - cheers SatuSuro 09:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I expanded it a little with some sources, but really have to get back to this stats assignment. This BOM link has the rainfall of 40.2mm for the city, btw. Orderinchaos 10:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup of participants
Hi intrepid pedians who still read this quiet location - will be pruning the participant list in the near future - the national list is being cleaned up - and it is possible the whole process might become more automated that state and national participant lists will be linked- we have quite a few retired/non active in over 2 years at our current list - and as some editors seem to be on permanent holiday - a autumn clean seems appropriate - cheers to those who bother to read this - and hope your monday is a good one SatuSuro 03:01, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Good idea, but maybe put those that aren't active anymore in a sub-section Former participants as they still have contributed after all. What do you think? Calistemon (talk) 03:34, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah - good idea - if someone else doest beat me to it - will do before the end of the month SatuSuro 04:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed, that seems like a good strategy. Orderinchaos 07:32, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ and cheers. –Moondyne 13:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you - I think it is important to have the departed listed as well - will need to go back to the australian list sometime and create the departed list there SatuSuro 13:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Piara Waters, Western Australia
Do we really want nano-stubs like this? For those who don't want to click, I'll recreate the entire article: ''Piara Waters is a southeastern suburb of Perth, Western Australia and is one of the western suburbs of the City of Armadale. It was recently gazetted in 2007 and hence little data is currently known about the settlement.'' Oh, there is also a navbox. I actually noticed this "settlement" on google maps the other day. It seems to be a cutout from Forrestdale (or Forestdale according to the Real Estate Agents!). Does anyone more familiar with WA suburb articles want to at least remove the "we don't know much about it" tone! Finally, I note that it was added to the Perth Task Force, rather than WP:WA. Is this correct, or is the Perth TF officially defunct? The-Pope (talk) 12:12, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Piara was one of a small set of outer metro burbs which stopped dead due to the GFC, As for TF Perth its as busy as it is here oh and please dont step on the tumble weeds on your way through. Gnangarra 12:20, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If it had a fridge (TF Perth) the freezer smell by now would be up there ... SatuSuro 12:25, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It is an actual suburb so it should have an article. (Google Maps should *never* be used as a reference for Perth, I'm aware of well over 50 major inaccuracies - the gold standard is the Streetsmart directory which is unfortunately not online.) If I was more well I'd fix it. Orderinchaos 12:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with OIC. Most of the estates out there are still in earthworks, but there are a few that are well established by now. The Newhaven estate, for example, has many houses and a substantial population. Maybe we could argue the toss about the suburb's notability now, but in a year's time it will certainly merit an article. Therefore we may as well keep it. Hesperian 12:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't suggesting using the google maps as the ref, more a comment that I happened to spot it the other day. As much as I don't trust estate agents that much, having >70 houses/blocks for sale on the reiwa site is at least a start that it is in use by some people.The-Pope (talk) 12:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Piara waters is growing, see nearmap view, its just that we've forgotten how long it actually takes rather than the way areas grew in the years 2003-2008. The big thing are the comunity infrastructure stalled after CY O'Connor pub was built. Gnangarra 13:01, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Ex-convict school teachers in Western Australia
There is a table of 30-40 ex-convicts in Ex-convict school teachers in Western Australia, half of which have separate articles. The criterion used to determine whether a separate article was warranted is unclear. As far as I can tell, few if any individually meet WP:TEACHER, WP:N/CA, or even WP:BIO for notability. I'm not questioning the notability of the group as a whole, but I would suggest that the biographical data on the individual ex-convicts be confined to the group article about them. Most of the articles on the individual ex-convicts are also orphans, further evidence of their individual lack of notability. Thanks. 72.244.203.204 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:46, 3 June 2010 (UTC).

The West
As noted when it happened, thewest.com.au URLs from before August 2009 no longer work. However, I've just discovered if you replace thewest.com.au with tehwest.com, the content is still available: http://www.tehwest.com/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=79211 TRS-80 (talk) 14:22, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Memory tester!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_shot_in_Western_Australia Greetings oh silent lurkers and watchers - this recent list might tickle the memory cells as to whether you can remember any of these being made !!! cheers SatuSuro 06:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Dingo the movie not Dingo was in 1991 not 1981, Gnangarra 08:46, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Australian National Heritage List
Hi all. Looking for relevant photographs for this list to represent the following Western Australian places on the Australian National Heritage List:
 * Batavia Shipwreck Site
 * Dampier Archipelago
 * Dirk Hartog Landing Site
 * Ningaloo Coast

Of course if you have a relevant photo for the places elsewhere in Australia, that would be gratefully accepted too. :) Cheers, Mattinbgn (talk) 10:39, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

All rather a long drive - and out of the way - if not impossible - thanks for the task!! :) cheers as well SatuSuro 12:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Forrest River Massacre
Would interested editors please visit the Forrest River Massacre article. There are two books on this particular historical event. One that argues that the massacre was probable (although the article portrays it as certain) and a second that argues that it was a myth. Certain editors are attempting to cut out virtually all information from the second book while flooding the article with highly questionable claims from the first. It is pretty obvious that they only want one perspective reflected in the article and want all evidence that there are problems with that point of view erased.

From the reliable sources noticeboard see

My question is: Is it really appropriate for an Western Australian Project article to be this heavily biased?Webley442 (talk) 05:41, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Note the above characterisation isnt quite correct. The major work (Neville Green, The Forrest River massacres) most certainly agrees the massacre happened, but he acknowledges somewhere that the evidence doesn't meet a judicial standard of proof, which is irrelevant. Every other academic historian whose studied the incident agrees it took place, but there is disagreement on the numbers killed. Moran is a journalist with no relevant qualifications and his work is self-published. The only other academic we can find who agrees with Moran is Josephine Flood, an archaeologist, who is generally sceptical about similar massacres. Main discussion at Talk:Forrest_River_massacre, where there is a consensus on the above. No-one was interested at RSN except one SPA. Misarxist (talk) 09:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_73#Is_Rod_Moran.E2.80.99s_book_Massacre_Myth_citable_as_a_reliable_resource.3F

could have come to this project page before the actual location - there are probably editors in the WA project who may actually know either of the authors.


 * also WP state projects do not necessarily police any articles that come under their ambit - it is up to complainer to decide where best to state the case - as the editor has been around other massacre articles - I would have thought the Australian page to be a better place to check ideas/attitudes,

the answer at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australian_history is in particular pertinent - why take issue with sub projects as if they are purveyors of bias? that shows a low understanding of how wikipedia works btw - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australian_history is a waste of time due to very low traffic at that project

In relation to the specific authors - there is as yet not an article about Moran (he has a publication list that spans many pages at the LISWA website that includes oral history and poetry) however he is actually a very complicated issue vis a vis BLP as he has in his lifetime been an active and vocal participant on both sides of politics, and a google search leaves any intrepid Bio stub creator in some a cleft stick with issues of balance and what may be concerned about bias will be even more so at whoever tackles moran as a bio subject - let alone the massacre in question.

As for Green - like many West Australian authors who have contributed extensively to Aboriginal history in Western Australia there is no article either...

I would suggest too much information at the sources noticeboard - and the comment ''I apologize that this is going to be a rather long post but too much information is better than too little. I hope that people will have the patience to read through this as it raises an important issue for Wikipedia regarding academic vs non-academic historians.'' - I would say that the response by Peregrine Fisher and Nick D is very salient - too much info.

Simple answer if you dont like it - do some more editing so that the moran and green views are balanced - and when you start putting someones academic qualifications out like Flood's - some editors will smell a rat immediately (spelling out qualifications is a particular style of stating a case that has certain indications of which way the text is being related) - we are not here to adjudicate the green moran debate - we are here to edit and provide an outline of it - this is an online encyclopedia :) SatuSuro 11:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The inclusion of Flood's and some others academic qualifications was a direct response to claims by those on the 'other side' that academic qualifications were a large part of what justified inclusion or exclusion of the material. Seems to be a no-win situation, can't include the material if it's not supported by some with the right letters next to their name, but can't mention the supporters' qualifications because someone "will smell a rat".Webley442 (talk) 13:21, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

NB there's an Rfc on above issue at the article talk page, probably best to centralise discussion there. Misarxist (talk)

This article is a joke. It's now a classic example of why Wikipedia can't be relied upon. A small group taking ownership of an article and keeping a source they don't like out of it by twisting the 'rules' out of shape. Only 1 editor who appears to have read the Moran book, the others clearly never did203.202.43.54 (talk) 07:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Earthquake deletion issue
FYI folks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/2010_Kalgoorlie-Boulder_earthquake SatuSuro 08:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Western Australia articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release
Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Western Australia articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (&diams;) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 23:50, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The last discussion on this was in 2008] and there's still some big omissions. To kick things off, here's another 23 which includes suggestions from others from the last discussion. Some of these may be included in another project list, so there may be some doubling up:

I considered Mining in Western Australia but the article is still a bit ornery. –Moondyne 02:59, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Alan Bond (businessman) ?? -- High-C
 * Anigozanthos manglesii -- Top-C
 * Black Swan -- Top-C
 * Charles Court - High-C
 * C. Y. O'Connor -- Top-B
 * David Brand -- High-C
 * Dirk Hartog -- High-start
 * Edith Cowan -- Mid-C
 * Eric Edgar Cooke -- Mid-start
 * Eucalyptus marginata -- High-start
 * Goldfields Water Supply Scheme -- High-B
 * Hartog Plate -- Mid-start
 * James Mitchell (Australian politician) -- High-start
 * James Stirling (Australian governor) -- High-C
 * Kings Park, Western Australia -- High-B
 * Megan Gale -- Mid-start
 * Moondyne Joe -- Mid-B
 * Numbat -- Top-B
 * Petroleum industry in Western Australia -- High-C
 * Rottnest Island -- Mid-B
 * Shark Bay -- Mid-start
 * Swan River Colony -- High-B
 * Willem de Vlamingh -- Mid-start

SatuSuro 03:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * List_of_active_gold_mines_in_Western_Australia seems more graphic and evocative than the Mining suggestion
 * John_Forrest I think is in some ways more representative of aspects of WA history than mitchell or stirling
 * Forrest is already in the 0.8 selection. –Moondyne 03:26, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I'd add Port Hedland, and Broome as well as Southwest Australia as its the only biodiversity hotspot in Australia only. Gnangarra 06:20, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Possible precedent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Australian_Land_Information_System - has had a whole range of social networking addresses added today - it is possible that this is overkill - perhaps others in this project might like to discuss the usage (or non usage) of such material in the lower parts of articles vis a vis MOS etc SatuSuro 08:27, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Harrisdale, Western Australia
I just discovered this page since I know someone who is thinking of moving to this apparently new Perth suburb. It was redirected to Armadale, Western Australia twice by a couple of non-WA editors, one of whom was a banned sockpuppet, and I've just un-redirected it, added a category, and added a basic infobox cribbed from Armadale, Western Australia. If someone could help to fill it out, it would be much appreciated. There are plenty of Google results for the name of the suburb, but I don't know how many of them are reliable sources. Graham 87 14:58, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Slow move discussion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Geraldton,_Western_Australia#Requested_move - probably needs a look folks SatuSuro 00:16, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This is part of a long standing attempt by a certain user to get rid of compulsory disambiguation. Its bit discussed to death from my point of view! Calistemon (talk) 23:44, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a bit unfair to imply that I am the only person who thinks mandatory disambiguation, at least in some cases, is past its use by date. If there was a clear consensus by Australian editors to retain mandatory disambiguation, and I was the only opposing voice, the discussion would be over. However, it is quite obvious that consensus no longer exists and discussion has now moved on how to adapt to a situation where there is no longer any clear consensus about the titles for articles about Australian places. These move discussions are part of mapping the boundaries of the new consensus, if any consensus exists. The discussions are not disruptive, there has been no mass renaming of articles - the best thing that can happen IMO is that discussions continue. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 00:03, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * How many times do we want to repeat Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 36? I'm quite bored of discussing this subject over and over again! Calistemon (talk) 00:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Calistemon's comment is fair though, it's starting to look like a bit of a campaign by yourself. If it was really such a widely held view, it'd be more than one person silently executing it. As you know I've shown a willingness to be cooperative when I think the encyclopaedia's interests are served (i.e. I've voted "support" on a number of individual moves where I think "yes, this is a reasonable extension of the capital city exception"), but you've been anything but transparent about how you've been going about this one. It's not "mapping the boundaries", it's "an attempt to wear down opposition". Orderinchaos 00:14, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I seem to think that there are a hell of a lot of other issues (and in view of the rapidly declining involvement rate in the Australian and state projects as a sign) that need attending on the Australia and Western Australia project that deserve more energy - I really think it should go to the national noticeboard for a discussion - and hopefully to retain mandatory disambiguation is put to sleep one way or the other for once and all - in view of the never decreasing hoard of geographically challenged users from elsewhere I would have thought using mandatory disambiguation is and essential and useful tool and clear.SatuSuro 00:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * There isn't a clear consensus one way or the other on overall principle - a slight (but not significant) majority supported retaining the existing convention, and it seems it's an issue which genuinely divides people who otherwise agree (as in, neither side accepts the other's arguments so there's little room for consensus to improve the situation). I am not opposed to drawing up a list of names and deciding where they should be - that's much more likely to gain consensus as we're arguing about specific articles then, not some overriding principle. Orderinchaos 00:27, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Without wanting to be seen as argumentative, the attempt to wear down opposition seems to me to come mainly from those wanting to retain mandatory disambiguation, hence comments such as "it's done to death", "no more discussions" etc and the discussion on this page to date is a classic example of such. Mandatory disambiguation seems to me to be one of those topics where most people support its removal, but none passionately (other than me, I guess) while a large minority seem determined to frustrate it. This has not been the first attempt to move away from mandatory disambiguation - there were at least two earlier ones and both showed that support for mandatory disambiguation was tepid at best. Both moves fell down because no one was prepared to follow through with the results of the discussion. The supporters of the status quo were able to make a big fuss (although not demonstrate any broad consensus for it) and thus shove the issue on the backburner. When I chose to restart this discussion, I didn't see much point in doing so unless I was prepared to follow it through to a conclusion, one way or the other. It is not just me, and attempting to make out that it is, is unfair.


 * "Silently executing it" is unfair also. All the articles chosen are high profile major regional cities and discussions have been listed at WP:RM and through a tag on the face of the article. They haven't been listed at AWNB because the close of the discussion.straw poll requested editors not to do so - I added a comment there about my intentions going forward. There has been plenty of scope for editors to contribute to the discussions. There have been no sneaky renames and I have never acted against consensus. I resent a little the implication I have been less than honest with my editing. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 00:41, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Put it this way - imagine someone does really oppose the whole thing. You're basically asking them to vote 30 or 40 times on individual discussions in obscure locations which they have to locate themselves when their opinion is known and could as easily be obtained in one discussion. That's what I meant re wearing down opposition. There's also the slightly weird outcome at Talk:Deniliquin where consensus appeared to oppose the move, and the Whyalla one is likely to fail. I agree AWNB may not be the venue for it, but it should be at a central location nonetheless - the more eyes on the thing, the better, as better decisions come from that - no one (or three) of us know every possible outcome that can arise from a decision. (The ironic thing here is that you and I together have made exactly the same points against others in other venues, such as at CfD.) Orderinchaos 00:56, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * To be honest, this whole discussion on this talk page comes across as an attempt to reframe this topic to be about my conduct as an editor and away from the facts on the ground about the consensus for mandatory disambiguation - which clearly no longer exists. It comes across as an attempt to stifle discussion so as to see the status quo retained. I didn't take this course of action to try and get around a consensus - it was the path suggested in the close of the straw poll! With regards to the CfD discussions, I take your point, but I don't think the concepts are entirely analogous. In most of the CfD cases, there was not an extensive discussion about the general principle beforehand and there was a clear consensus from Australian editors about the topic on hand. If the discussions at AWNB had shown a clear consensus to retain mandatory disambiguation, I would have dropped the subject - and even defended it elsewhere - see Talk:Orroroo, South Australia for an example.


 * The one thing not addressed by the "done it to death", "wrong venue" crowd is the basic principle that local exceptions to site-wide rules should have a broad consensus amongst the local editors. Otherwise, there should be a default back to the site-wide policy and guidelines. If the case for mandatory disambiguation was being made now, it would never be implemented and I am not sure, other than through reflex conservatism, it still exists now. We have a clear guideline - WP:AT - and there is no longer consensus for its local variation. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 01:30, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Government departments of Western Australia
Should there be a list or template of the Government departments of Western Australia? There currenly seems to be none. An official list is here, but it includes agencies as well. Calistemon (talk) 03:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * See List of Western Australian government agencies, which could do with a refresh and reorganisation. Also, Government of Western Australia.  A template might' be too big to be useful - perhaps just show the major departments.  –Moondyne 03:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the list could do with reworking, some departments were reorganised in early 2009. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction! Calistemon (talk) 05:09, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Updating the list seemed just to much of a task at present, so I created Government departments of Western Australia instead. It only includes those genuinly labeled as departments, no agencies at present. There is mostly redlinks in it for now, stub articles could however easily be created for all of the missing out of the 27. A uniform naming convention however would be useful. Should the name include (Western Australia) in all of them or only in the ones that presently require disambiguation? Calistemon (talk) 12:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Isn't he one of us?
Found this today... David_Cohen_(crime_journalist) by User talk:Dcohen99, but appears to be about User:Davidcohen (note the branch president of the WA MEAA) a semi-regular editor here at WPWA. I'm posting to both talk pages to see what's the story. Note that the article is at AfD.The-Pope (talk) 15:55, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Should know better - same and one - SatuSuro 23:33, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Input required: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rio Tinto Mines
Could the members of the project please provide some input on Articles for deletion/Rio Tinto Mines. Thanks, Calistemon (talk) 02:57, 7 November 2010 (UTC))

Pilbara rail network
I've created a Pilbara rail network article yesterday, dealing with Rio Tinto's rail network up there. I'm however not completely satisfied with the title as it does not highlight that the article is about Rio only and not the BHP network, which I would like to create separate articles for. My question is, can anyone think of a better, less amigious, title for the article? And how should the BHP articles be named? Or should the current article be about both, even so thats not overly fitting as they are completely independent of each other. Thanks, Calistemon (talk) 22:49, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally, after creating the two BHP ones today, Mount Newman railway and Goldsworthy railway, I would lean torwards Hammersley & Robe River railway. Calistemon (talk) 13:51, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

At some stage we need a map or two as well - but no falling rain map! SatuSuro 13:53, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know, quite desparatly, actually. Do you know of a free one? My map-making skill are not to good. Calistemon (talk) 14:02, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I dont think I know of any - and my map making skill is zilch - maybe we need to request help in this area! SatuSuro 14:13, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I will look into it. I would also really appreciate your input in the naming issue mentioned above. I'm a little stumped, which remindes me, I forgot about the cricket tonight! Bugger! Calistemon (talk) 14:16, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Request placed at Graphic Lab/Map workshop. Calistemon (talk) 14:50, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I might be able to take a picture of the railway if that helps when im around the areas again. Five Years 05:55, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Pictures would be great, they would add a lot to the articles! Calistemon (talk) 11:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject cleanup listing
I have created together with Smallman12q a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for WolterBot and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of Category:WolterBot cleanup listing subscriptions). See the tool's wiki page, this project's listing in one big table or by categories and the index of WikiProjects. Svick (talk) 21:31, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Jan 15, 2011

 * discussion moved to Wikipedia talk:Meetup/Perth/6 –Moondyne 13:22, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Western Australian towns
Hi all. I have a little project that may be worth pursuing by the denizens of this noticeboard. Disregarding differing views on mandatory disambiguation, we should all be able to agree that there needs to be a redirect from the common name (e.g Ajana) to the disambiguated name ((i.e. Ajana, Western Australia). Alternatively, if another article exists at the common name (i.e. Alexandra Bridge) then that article needs a hatnote that points to the disambiguated article (e.g. Alexandra Bridge, Western Australia). Finally, if there is a disambiguation page at the common name then the disambiguated name needs to be added to it.

I have earlier completed similar checks on Victoria, Tasmania, Queensland and the Riverina region of NSW and have kept on top of new articles in those states. Out of curiosity (and admittedly indulging in a little bit of WP:POINTy research) I did a small check of Category:Towns in Western Australia and noted that these links are in many cases missing. I am happy to help with establishing those links, but would appreciate a hand. Of course, the suburbs of Perth etc. need similar checks as well. Cheers, Mattinbgn (talk) 04:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been at this for years. User:Hesperian/Notes/Place redirects may be of use to you. Hesperian 04:21, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Working my way through the category and the As and Bs seem to be the worst of the bunch. On the topic of names, is there any reason the Aboriginal communities need to have the word "community" in the article title, such as Kadjina Community, Western Australia, Jigalong Community, Western Australia? It comes across a little patronising to me, as if they are not real localities but mere "communities". Is the word community part of their official name? Why can't they simply be at Jigalong, Western Australia and Kadjina, Western Australia? (I would of course prefer Jigalong and Kadjina but we won't go there ...) -- Mattinbgn (talk) 08:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Gazetteer of Australia (eg. ) classifies them as Towns & Localities feature code LOCU, as opposed to LOCB. The essential difference is LOCU is an unbounded locality and LOCB is bounded (see appendix C. page 25.). "X Community" seems to be almost universal used and possibly relates to how they're administered.  It'd be quite interesting to find an official policy or discussion on this.  I don't see them as patronising, but thats just me.  –Moondyne 09:13, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * But we wouldn't call Yorkrakine "Yorkrakine Community" and it is a LOCU as well . -- Mattinbgn (talk) 09:37, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I never suggested use of LOCU was always associated with XXX Community, although re-reading my statement above I can see why you might have thought that. I meant that "X Community" seems to be almost universally used for aboriginal communities.  –Moondyne 12:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This is where outsiders always guess wrong - best to look at what the communities actually have for their identity - if they have websites or links that identify themselves against such names - why create something other than what they use? To create different appellations in titles I am sure is not what wikipedia is about - see http://www.illawarrastore.com/jigalong_community.htm  to see what I mean - SatuSuro 09:26, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That link says "Jigalong Community" once and "Jigalong" by itself six times (and the photo of the sign says "Jigalong" by itself as well. However, if everyone else here is happy with a special naming protocol for Aboriginal towns, I don't think it is much use continuing down this path. I would suggest that redirects from Jigalong Community and Kadjina Community and the other "communities" are needed. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 09:37, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Kadjina Community is the official name; some others have XXX Community for a township and XXX for a larger locality surrounding (for which there are no articles). I had a look at these a while ago and moved a couple (Jigalong was one) and I think they are accurate, officially. Historically, there was XXX and later XXX Community within it. Referring to simply Kadjina or Jigalong (common usage, if it is) within the more formal Kadjina Community et al article would seem sensible (Crusoe8181 (talk) 11:30, 15 November 2010 (UTC)).
 * Although there is a commendable sense of getting it right for wikipedia - I strongly suggest that a more realistic point of view would be to check what the communities think of themselves - despite the rejoinder to my example above - in local reporting - such as http://search.abc.net.au/search/search.cgi?form=simple&num_ranks=20&collection=abcall&query=jigalong+community - the predominant usage is referring to it as a community - albeit aboriginal - and the most probably worst and most ill-advised reference check at http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jigalong+community&sa=N&tbs=nws:1,ar:1  against the most probable better source http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=jigalong+community - please - happy with a special naming protocol? - have a look at the links - it is not just imagination - its usage across a wide range of soruces SatuSuro 14:10, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, Google (without the quotes), "Jigalong -community": 9,400 results and "Jigalong +community": 6,950. –Moondyne 14:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * hell I have repeatedly said it was one of the most ill advised reference devices for australian context - and to think at least one australian editor literally lives on Afd continually using his nominations as 'not in gng' - my example was made - much less for the number crunching - much more in the spirit of 'even the village idiots' have it listed - even despite their logarithmic devices SatuSuro 14:40, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I never said G was a reference device; you mentioned it first. Its just a search engine to tell you how many times a phrase is mentioned on other websites. In that respect and for this topic its a fair number cruncher.  I was a bit surprised with the result BTW and do support keeping "XX community".  –Moondyne 23:29, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Apologies - see email(s) SatuSuro 23:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * These communities are not towns they are unique in there formation and management.. Access to them is restricted one needs to obtain prior written permission to enter or travel through them, they have no services available for non community members. The official names are "XX community" though locations within them also exist with the same name aka an LGA(again something that google cant distinguish), though these communities more closely resemble a Fiefdom/Appanage than an LGA. Gnangarra 23:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Now checked all XXX Community articles in WA- all have their correct official name, and if they have those names hardly our job to go around inventing new ones. Some articles drop Community in the text which wouldn't seem to be a great problem. I will be doing a pass through WA localities shortly (coords, ppin maps etc) and will check the redirects. On the subject of Google search what should we do about Wagga Wagga?? when Wagga has so many more hits!! (Crusoe8181 (talk) 02:33, 16 November 2010 (UTC)).

it must be the season
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gascoyne_River and http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/21/3098255.htm like from two different planets - interesting how we seem to be lagging on this one :) SatuSuro 02:53, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Tenth Birthday meetup
Arrangements etc. at Meetup/Perth/6 –Moondyne 13:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

historical question
Anyone got any idea what a "commonage" is in a historical (i.e. 1870s-1880s) context and what on earth a commonage board was needed for? I'm ploughing through old gazettes and keep seeing this over and over again. I thought it was just somewhere people grazed their animals, but the quest to get onto the commonage boards seems to have been quite political, so I presume there was something in it. They were typically about 20km² in size. Orderinchaos 14:18, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * http://www.thefreedictionary.com/commonage - therefore in western australian historical terms
 * http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search~S2?/Xcommonage&searchscope=2&SORT=D/Xcommonage&searchscope=2&SORT=D&SUBKEY=commonage/1%2C3%2C3%2CB/frameset&FF=Xcommonage&searchscope=2&SORT=D&3%2C3%2C
 * http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/46084621?searchTerm=commonage&searchLimits=

try them for size - cheers SatuSuro 14:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I thought they referred to an area of land set aside for a townsite and residential areas.
 * "'The process is a simple one. Weary of living two days' journey from a place of worship, the farmers of a region large as an English county resolve to build one in their midst. They memorialize their presbytery and raise funds. A farm is bought. Now a farm means a tract of ten thousand acres, often of more, with a spring upon it. This forms the site and commonage of the future town. A suitable spot is surveyed and marked out in streets and squares. Lots are sold on some great auction day, after a series of religious services. The bidding is enthusiastic, and fancy prices are realized. With the sum thus raised, in the present instance something over £20,000, a church, parsonage, and schoolhouse are erected, and the foundation of a good endowment fund is started.' The Boers at Home"
 * Articles on Toodyay Commonage, Busselton Commonage, Harvey Commonage and Perth Commonage.
 * I suppose a Commonage Board is a bit like a Town Council. This describes the Perth Commonage and its purpose quite well. –Moondyne 14:48, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm much better reply - thank you .... SatuSuro 14:55, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I like this POV... I think many still think the same about local councils! "What! a Board to work or manage 10,000 acres of our land, with power to make or mar our town at its pleasure, made up of two persons? Why, the notion is the very quintessence of absurdity!" The-Pope (talk) 15:23, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Together with the public servant's whinge I found at the SRO about the Surveyor-General recommending changes that would make a mess of his Books (sic), just goes to show some things never change :P Orderinchaos 15:47, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah thanks for that! That does make more sense. Orderinchaos 15:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Perth Commonage may be viable. –Moondyne 23:51, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Eliza (sculpture)
I think it was installed in about 2007. Any info appreciated. –Moondyne 15:17, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you mean Eliza? And a bit more of a RS. The-Pope (talk) 15:27, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Perfect. Thanks mate. –Moondyne 15:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Nocturnal refs? SatuSuro 23:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You could use ... Dan arndt (talk) 01:23, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

✅. –Moondyne 06:38, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

WA Map
Just thought id bring it up here, this is used as a base for a few images eg and it seems to show Pannawonica where Tom Price sits in WA? Although later versions of the image have this fixed up, just not sure how far this small issue is spread. Five Years 13:46, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it is actually Paraburdoo, not Tom Price... Tom is more to the north. But definitely not Pannawonica. The-Pope (talk) 14:28, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Black Swan
Just looking through the reqphotos that are being tagged noticed that one I'd taken a photo from in 2007 that had been removed for the article, when what looks like somene frm the subject turned the page into it advertising Black Swan State Theatre Company looks like a serious clean up, incuding a dont look now but its probably a technical copy violation when the article was replaced. Gnangarra 09:46, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Notice
–Moondyne 12:51, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * FAN -- Adenanthos obovatus • discussion
 * GAN -- December 2010 Gascoyne River flood • discussion

Template:Perth tasks
It doesn't say what the task is (improve? refs? expand? reduce?). It appears in one place alongside WikiProject Perth/to do which is supposedly for the same purpose. Propose deletion. –ǝuʎpuooW 13:45, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * support - non controversial (how do you do that upside down thing?) SatuSuro 13:48, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * (Lol, he doesn't, he just spells his name schwa, u, lambda, p, u, o, o, W.) Hesperian 14:27, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * now that is as clever I suppose - translating it :) SatuSuro 14:29, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Helps having the right letters in one's name. soɐчɔu!ɹǝpɹO or oɹnSnʄɐS doesn't quite have the same ring to it :P (And yes, agree with the deletion of the todo... it's out of date anyway.) Orderinchaos 15:00, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Western Australian hill at AfD
I have nominated a hill in Western Australia for deletion. See Articles for deletion/Victoria (Western Australia). Cheers, Mattinbgn (talk) 20:06, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

RM discussion - Leslie Starcevich
I have requested a move of a Western Australian article - see Talk:Leslie Starcevich -- Mattinbgn (talk) 10:38, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Anyone know the story?
Just spotted on my watchlist. Not sure what the problem is and don't have time to investigate but thought I should leave it here in case it needs fixing or whatever. Orderinchaos 08:07, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Fikri made the original map. Licensed it under GFDL, but didn't explicitly say "I made it". The subsequent versions are derivative works of the original. All versions are now nominated for deletion on the grounds that the original could have been deleted as lacking a source. I think that's a bit bloody ridiculous, and that User:Fikri/Maps suffices to establish that Fikri made these maps himself. Hesperian 08:49, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Photos
Following discussions at the last meetup I have started work going through the Perth articles and placing photo requests for various places around town - hopefully this will be an incentive for those photographers to go out and take some pics, so that they can be added to those articles. Dan arndt (talk) 01:10, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * hint taken, :) Gnangarra 09:03, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

List of public art in Western Australia
I just moved this semi-forgotten list and wondered if anyone has any entries they can think of adding. Note, it now includes all public art, not just statues... –Moondyne 01:26, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * cannot do much for about 10 days - but can populate heavily with refs/etc etc after that SatuSuro 02:33, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Didn't even know the list existed. Have put some of the few that I can think of.... possibly should add some additional columns identiying artist & installation date?? Dan arndt (talk) 03:42, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Go for it.  –Moondyne 03:52, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree - extra info would be excellent - SatuSuro 11:52, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Do 'Big Things' fall under the classification of Public Art - was thinking of the 'Big Sheep' at Wagin, the 'Big Cow' at Brunswick Junction, the 'Big Banana' at Carnarvon, the 'Big Orange' at Harvey or 'Big Apple' at Donnybrook? Dan arndt (talk) 06:35, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Good question. I was wondering about the Swan Bells tower. –Moondyne 08:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
 * My thoughts would be that the Bell Tower is more an architectural structure rather than a piece of public art - you could argue that a lot of buildings are also public art. To me public art is artwork that is sited in the physical public domain, usually outside and accessible to everyone. hence my question about 'Big Things', I know that there is a seperate list, Australia's big things, but wondered whether they could also be construed as pieces of public art... Dan arndt (talk) 01:21, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry for not giving a straight answer. I agree with what you said.  As for big things, perhaps a See also link at the bottom of the page.  But if you want to include them in the table, I'm fine with that too.  Your call.  –Moondyne 02:08, 28 January 2011 (UTC)


 * IMHO big things should be a separate list, though it could be a separate section/table in this one. Gnangarra 02:41, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Came across a number of public artwork sites which include 'Big Things' as public art - just food for thought. Dan arndt (talk) 03:05, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Pics needed
I know its hot, but we need your help with getting some more photos. Any assistance is appreciated. Upload to Commons:Category:Sculptures in Western Australia.
 * City
 * Bali Memorial 	Kings Park
 * Percy Buttons' Aspiration 	Hay Street Mall, Perth
 * Conic Fugue (Enigma) 	QV1 Building, Corner St Georges Terrace and Milligan Street, Perth
 * "Gateway 2: Coalesce" 	Perth Cultural Centre, James Street, Perth
 * "Going Home" (Kangaroos with Briefcases) 	Florence Hummerston Reserve, Corner Mount Street and St Georges Terrace, Perth
 * Bishop Mathew Hale 	The Cloisters, St Georges Terrace, Perth
 * Talbot Hobbs 	Esplanade, Perth
 * Migrants Memorial 	Ozone Reserve, Corner Plain Street and Riverside Drive, Perth
 * "Harmony of Minerals Obelisk" aka "The Ore Obelisk" 	Stirling Gardens, Perth
 * People in the City 	Central Park, Corner Hay and William Streets, Perth
 * John Septimus Roe 	Corner Victoria Avenue and Adelaide Terrace, Perth
 * Captain James Stirling 	Foundation Park between Perth Town Hall and the Treasury Buildings Perth
 * "Unfolding Lives"[6] 	Perth Cultural Centre, James street, Perth
 * de Vlamingh Memorial 	Barrack Square, Perth


 * Metro
 * Asteroids 	Broadway and The Avenue Roundabout, Nedlands
 * "Centrefold" 	Marine Parade (north end), Cottesloe
 * "Centrefold" 	Marine Parade (north end), Cottesloe
 * "Feathers" 	North Street and Marine Parade Roundabout, Swanbourne
 * "Roundabout" 	Marine Parade (south end), Cottesloe
 * "Sky Marker", "Water Wing" and "Seed Carrier" 	Tarlton Crescent, Perth Airport
 * Tribanga III 	Station Street, Cottesloe
 * Vasco de Gama (Portugese Memorial) 	The Esplanade Fremantle

–Moondyne 08:00, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Rural
 * Mustafa Kemal Atatürk 	Middleton Beach, Albany
 * David Brand 	Shire of Irwin office foyer, Dongara
 * "Brother and Sister" 	Roundabout on Victoria Street, Bunbury
 * Aboriginal Female Pearl Diver[4] 	Foreshore, Broome
 * Hard Hat Pearl Diver 	Carnarvon Street, Broome
 * Sir John Forrest 	St Paul's Place, Corner Victoria and Stephens Streets, Bunbury
 * Miners Monument 	Corner Burt and Lane Streets, Boulder
 * "The Navigators" ("Gateway"/"Four Winds Monument") 	Australind Bypass Roundabout Bunbury
 * Prospectors horse "Norseman" 	Corner Roberts and Ramsay Streets Norseman
 * Onslow War Memorial 	Onslow
 * Frederick Henry Piesse 	Austral Terrace, Katanning
 * "Water Dance" 	Forrest Highway, Lake Clifton

Tropical Cyclone Bianca (2011)
The Tropical Cyclone Bianca (2011) was an article but has now been made into a redirect to 2010–11 Australian region cyclone season. Given that it is forcast to be the first cyclone since 1989 to hit the south west, should it be its own article? Calistemon (talk) 07:28, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * lets see if does anything first, atm its just tracking the coast so it doesnt warrant much more than a section in the season article. Gnangarra 14:40, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Gnangarra's advice. If it hits, we'll be rained on (figuratively and literally, it would seem) by reliable sources. Orderinchaos 15:00, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Just a rain bearing depression - nothing to write home about folks. Dan arndt (talk) 00:14, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * How disappointing! What a great photo opportunity lost! Oh well, I can move all the things I was worried about blowing away back outside. Calistemon (talk) 02:29, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The warnings when they first appeared - and being read in the eastern states - were scary !! SatuSuro 02:42, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You could drive to Mandurah or Busselton and capture the apparently unusually high tide... which is the only part of the "severe weather warning" still in force. BOM do a damn good job of scaring the crap out of people. Orderinchaos 08:25, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Has a look around Mandurah near sunset very drizzly weather, interesting light but the tide at that stage was highish but nothing dramatic no jetties under water, no paths/cyclways under water that I could find, did see a handful of pine logs that had water around them again nothing dramatic Gnangarra 13:58, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Must be tough though, too few warnings and people complain that they didn't have enough time to prepare, too many warnings and you get a "boy who cried wolf" scenario and we ignore the next one.The-Pope (talk) 09:01, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Incidentally is the major damage in Northam and York, although not directly related to Bianca (a separate front split away from it while it was forming and came down the coast via Geraldton), worthy of some sort of note somewhere? Orderinchaos 10:16, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

The town you have when you're not having a "town" ;-)
Happy new year guys. Please see my comment at Talk:Shire of Murchison. Grant |  Talk  05:35, 30 January 2011 (UTC) Gday and happy new year as well SatuSuro 12:24, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Very careful watch needed
Please could someone check and proof read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_Australian_bushfire_season#February it looks like it is wrong on a few points - the kelmscott one started today when I was at local volunterr bush fire station getting  the word on current updates - that makes it the 6th - also a general check against sources etc - also interstate refs are notoriously problematic - hope someone can sort it out - thanks SatuSuro 12:24, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Still a mess - please could someone check it against current info - pity it is the only wp itm - as more detail would help SatuSuro 23:55, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Follow-up
Since the 2006 version - the worst in its totally ahistorical and obviously selective perception has created a new version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Western_Australia/100_Most_Influential_Western_Australians - it now has a rather mysterious appraisal of some people who not in the public gaze or google radar - interested if anyone wants to have a list like the last one up on a separate page - SatuSuro 00:52, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It is an interesting list - have started to expand the notes field for each entry (at least to give a perspective of why they were selected). Dan arndt (talk) 04:41, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oops not explained well - the most recent - last saturdays west - http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/8870908/who-are-was-most-influential/ - compared to the link above... SatuSuro 00:53, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ahhh, now I understand. I think that we should have one page with the 2006 list and then another with the 2011 list (would be interesting to seee who was on both lists). I must admit I didn't actually read the list when it came out - must of had something better to do with my Saturday. Dan arndt (talk) 02:59, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

WA now and then links
WA editors may be interested in the linkspamming(?) of. I will leave it up to you to determine if these are spam links or otherwise. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 03:08, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I saw him adding the 1st couple and thought that if it stops there I'd let it slide. It appears  he going to continue alphabetically.  I'll post a warning on the IP's talk page.  –Moondyne 03:19, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Too gentle - surely it is obvious SatuSuro 08:29, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The link is - in the example of augusta a totally unreferenced web page that makes assertions that are not verifiable, and includes personal opinion mixed with bits of history - and commercial links - I have encountered a similar parellel universe website to wikipedia articles - similar in style a year or three back and would strongly suggest very well considered caution in allowing the links to remain - I hope other WA eds still have this page on their watchlist - as I do believe we are not here to support linking to such pages without some form of qualification or justification  that requires more than just a link.... SatuSuro 08:35, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Nullarbor Plain
Some smart cookie has called the Nullarbor Plain a desert by placing a template which I have just removed - I am very certain it isnt a desert in any sense of the word - just curious if any intrepid WA eds who still look here :) - would have a handle on the non desert nature of the Nullarbor? when is a non desert a desert? - almost 99 of the plain is vegetated - SatuSuro 00:15, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Its been in deserts since 2008. Now removed.    Moondyne (talk) 03:03, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

USGS says "In this now widely accepted system, extremely arid lands have at least 12 consecutive months without rainfall, arid lands have less than 250 millimeters of annual rainfall, and semiarid lands have a mean annual precipitation of between 250 and 500 millimeters. Arid and extremely arid land are deserts, and semiarid grasslands generally are referred to as steppes." Cook has a mean annual rainfall of 247mm. Does 3mm count? 183mm. Bugger. Moondyne (talk) 03:29, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The Nullarbor is a desert like the Perth Metropolitan Area is a sandplain. The nullarbor might span a desert area, it might even have bounds that largely coincide with the bounds of a desert area, but nonetheless it is defined by its soil type—a bloody great limestone block—not by its climate. Hesperian 05:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks guys - glad youre still around this talk page feels like an abandoned railway station sometimes SatuSuro 08:19, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Busselton region Photo-op
Thanks to Wikimedia-Australia I'll be in the Busselton, Western Australia area taking photographs to improve the visual cverage of the area. I've already identified a few articles that need photographs these are at User:Gnangarra/Sandbox/Busselton photo ops. If you know of any other articles within the region that are in need of photographs please add them to the list. Gnangarra 00:42, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Have uploaded some of my photos of public artworks in Busselton to wikicommons (including the Bust of Nicolas Baudin), was busy sailing on Geographe Bay so didn't take too many other shots, although I have some shots of the Vasse River that I'll upload. Dan arndt (talk) 04:56, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks Dan will have a look so I dont duplicate unecessarily Gnangarra 15:53, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


 * While we are talking abut the Vasse river, seams that there are a lot of heritage sites in the area associated ith the contstructions of drains, floodgateseg, going back to at least the 1850's if anyone sees any reference to them can drop the source here, please. Gnangarra 15:53, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


 * commons:Category:Photographs by Gnangarra sponsored by Wikimedia Australia is currently being populated with photographs from the trip, I got some of the Baudin bust Gnangarra 08:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Roleystone Kelmscott Bushfire
Proded. FYI, in case someone can make a case for keeping. Moondyne (talk) 07:24, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ATM its a nothing article that can be resurected, ot sure on what/where of reports into the event suspect that there will be some impact from them but probably can be covered in the umbrella season article Gnangarra 08:37, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Help build a civic wiki for Freo?
Hi everyone,

This isn't really about Wikipedia, but I thought I'd post this flyer here in case anyone's interested...

Freo Wiki
— Sam & Michael. Thanks! :-)

&mdash; Sam Wilson ( Talk &bull; Contribs ) &hellip; 04:12, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Is anyone else going this evening? Gnangarra 04:23, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I would ordinarily but I'm first day post-flu and don't want to risk it. Orderinchaos 06:44, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry - have another meeting tonight. Dan arndt (talk) 06:56, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Wilgie Mia
Hi all. Is there any chance at all of turning up a freely-licenced image of Wilgie Mia for use in its article and in Australian National Heritage List. While I am begging for freely-licenced photographs for the NHL, I would also appreciate photos for the Batavia Shipwreck Site, the Dampier Archipelago and the Ningaloo Coast if some are available. Cheers, Mattinbgn (talk) 23:50, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Those are all at least 500km from Perth I believe. We had one guy up in the northwest but he's back here now. Orderinchaos 02:28, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Wilgie Mia if thats the place in the Weld range west of Cue its Wilga Mia Gnangarra 03:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * According to the Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies (AIATSIS) Placename Thesaurus, both are used but "Wilgie Mia" is preferred. Hesperian 03:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * suspected that might have been the case, Gnangarra 04:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm planning a camping trip around Cue in September if its of any help. Sing out if this is unresolved by then. Moondyne (talk) 03:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

December 2010 WA Cabinet/Ministry reshuffle
While trying to confirm the name of Western Australia's current transport minister, I became quite confused for a while when I discovered that Wikipedia and the WA government website had conflicting information,. It seems that almost none of the relevant Wikipedia articles were updated to take into account the Cabinet reshuffle on 14 December 2010 described in this Government Gazette (PDF) ... over four months ago! I've just done quite a bit of work updating these positions, including edits to Template:Cabinet of Western Australia. I haven't yet touched Barnett Ministry because I didn't know what to do with it. Any help in updating the relevant articles/templates, or fixing any screwups I've made, would be appreciated. I'd never heard of the Government Gazette until a couple of hours ago! Graham 87 16:19, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that is what the government would hope for - that as few of the punters would see their tricks and slicks (which they are required by law to publish) exposed :) SatuSuro 04:27, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * LOL. Anyhow, I've updated Barnett Ministry; hopefully I've done it correctly. Coincidentally I'm off to Busselton, the main town in Troy Buswell's electorate, for the Easter long weekend. Graham 87 12:38, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Wonnerup massacre
I've been working on Wonnerup House and the Layman family, I'm coming across hints of a massacre that occured in response to the spearing of George Layman by Gaywal in 1841, lots of version of this. The problem is I'm not getting any RS to support the massacre claims especially the estimates of 250-300 aboriginals being killed, besides some random claims there absolutely nothing substantive or sufficiently reliable to use as a source this is as close as I can get to a solid figure but it aint anywhere strong enough to change/challenge After Georges death the Bussell brothers and Molloy hunted down down Gaywal and his three sons, killing an unknown of aboriginals in the process. information available supported by reliable sources. I dont doubt that there was retribution with a considerable number killed, but seriously doubt that it was anything like the events describe by the Nyungah Circle of Elders especially as the only borther of George Layman snr I've come across was in Tasmania, and the eldest of his sons at the time he was killed was 3. What ever the outcome and where ever the story goes I just need finding sources I can use. Gnangarra 14:06, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I looked into this once and never found much of any substance. History of West Australia/Chapter 13 (p. 116) mentions it briefly.  There might be something in The Aborigines of Australia but I haven't checked.  Moondyne (talk) 14:28, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Also try:
 * Hallam, S. and Tilbrook, L. (1990) Aborigines of the Southwest Region 1829-1840: The bicentennial dictionary of Western Australians, Vol. VIII. Nedlands: The University of Western Australia Press.
 * Jennings, R. (1983) Busselton “…outstation on the Vasse” 1830-1850. Busselton: Shire of Busselton.
 * Shann, E.O.G. (1978) Cattle Chosen: The story of the first group settlement in Western Australia 1829 to 1841, Facsimile Edition. Nedlands: University of Western Australia Press.
 * Cattle Chosen talks of the strained relations, the "the Layman affair" and spells the locality "Wanerup"
 * Moondyne (talk) 14:44, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks I added a note to the artice enough for now as reminder to return to the History of West Australia for a read and to clean up the section. Gnangarra 15:29, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You may have already found this, and of course it quite likely understated the count, but the news of the day stated that only 5 natives were shot by Bussell and Molloy. see . The-Pope (talk) 15:06, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * No I hadnt seen that one, will add it to the note I just added. I must say just 5 (though cynically possible for just Bussell and Molloy alone, ignoring the rest of the party) seams as unlikely as the Nyungah Councils description. Oops better be careful of WP:NPOV and WP:OR. thanks Gnangarra 15:29, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Have you seen this thirdhand 1914 account of the hearsay? in the Western Mail? There's another mention in a 1934 edition of the West here. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 01:40, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

East Perth Terminal
There's no page for the East Perth Terminal (which isn't actually in East Perth), just wondering what the best name for the page would be? Hack (talk) 07:31, 9 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not just included in East Perth railway station? There's a bit of info there about the terminal.  &mdash; Sam Wilson ( Talk &bull; Contribs ) &hellip; 08:24, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's mentioned in passing that the terminal is opposite. The terminal also includes Transwa bus services which don't really fit into the railway article. Hack (talk) 08:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)


 * File:East perth trainstation gnangarra.JPG are there any other views you'd like, its called the East Perth Terminal Gnangarra 11:58, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we should move the railway station article to ...Terminal? Orderinchaos 17:02, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Na they are two separate items, EPTS is on the midland line to service the EPT but its not part of EPT, EPTS even has its own separate parking. Additionally there was a number of changes to three stations because of the terminal, Mt Lawley was moved further out, Claisebrook renamed and EP added. Gnangarra 23:12, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't really noticed but is the "East Perth Terminal" sign still displayed on the intra/interstate platform (as per this photo)? Hack (talk) 08:33, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Afd of interest
Anyone with no interest in the trite nature of most Afds, might be interested in this one - directly relevant to an adjunct prof at Murdoch - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Trevor_Marshall_(2nd_nomination) - considering the nominator SatuSuro 01:28, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * IMO this is one of the times he's actually right. Orderinchaos 02:48, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Claremont,_Western_Australia
Not a mention anywhere (unless i didnt see it) of Perth's famous Claremont Art School - there are quite a few alumni with horrible little bios who went there whose bios need a link - anyone with any clues? Otherwise I suppose the good old henrietta and her younger upstart cousin trove (a veritable treasure house at ) will be the line of enquiry... SatuSuro 15:40, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * There were numerous aka's - Claremont tech, Claremont Art School, even just Claremont for some...

the reason for placing this query here is to ascertain any recognition for anyone who reads this as to which the more appropriate title for such an article (or the akas in the lead sentence of course) - (if it gets written) should carry - knowing that there is a Claremont in Tasmania, and other places too SatuSuro 15:48, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Did it become part of ECU? If so, a piped link could work... Hack (talk) 08:26, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * yes it did - I have also found quite a range of refs - just havent started it yet SatuSuro 08:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * What was the relationship with Claremont Teachers College? Hack (talk) 08:44, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably quite separate during their times of operation SatuSuro 01:28, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Where was the art school located? Hack (talk) 06:42, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Should have that by the end of the weekend - sorry for the delay SatuSuro 07:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Any luck? Hack (talk) 03:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/10348710?q=claremont+art+school
 * http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=claremont+teachers+college

diff places for sure - worth a close look at the entries - sorry about delay SatuSuro 10:32, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Fremantle Cricket Club
I notice that the Fremantle District Cricket Club article suggests that the club was founded in 1886 (as Fremantle CC), which is backed up by the club's website. A search of Trove suggests that the club, or at least a club of the same name, may have been in existence earlier. Does anyone happen to have access to any reference materials that might clear this up? Hack (talk) 02:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The 1st match between Perth and Fremantle was at Wellington Square (then known as Perth Cricket Ground) on Tuesday 9 November 1852 and a return match held in Freo the following week. In December the Fremantle Cricket Club was "making arrangements for the ensuing year".  Moondyne (talk) 15:10, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If you could get a copy of Barker A.J. (1997). The WACA: An Australian Cricket Success Story, that would no doubt give more info. Moondyne (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I own a copy of Barker. Says a Fremantle club was formed in 1852(pg6). On Page 25 it says that it was admitted into the West Aust Cricket Association in 1886. Five Years 05:16, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

WA Inc
I hadn't paid a lot of attention to WA Inc before researching an article in the last week. It seems there are some holes in the WP coverage of important players in this episode. In an attempt to get my head around the scandal I have created a rough navbox of the key players. Are there any people or organisations that should be in the box?

Hack (talk) 06:43, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Looks good - then there were the people who wrote about it - the biographers that the villains and heroes did not like - also the journos and politics lecturers who were prepared to make public comment about the issues

Just take care - I think there still a case in court about part of it, or did it get resolved SatuSuro 15:27, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Something to do with Bell Group? Hack (talk) 15:40, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Removal of Goonininup
My article on Goonininup was removed without me noticing in March 2011. Can anyone find out why? John D. Croft (talk) 15:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Deleted under CSD "lacking context"... Hack (talk) 15:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Photo of Walsh's Building (aka Economic Store Building)
Does someone happen to have a photo that can be used on the Walsh's Building article? Hack (talk) 05:21, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * more important is to identify that it is (1) associated with John Talbot Hobbs and that it is on the corner of Hay and William - that actually places it across from another listed building on the south east corner of the intersection and where you should be looking is to find PD items in http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/10987631?q=walsh%27s+perth+western+australia&c=picture cheers SatuSuro 06:23, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit confused, the licence conditions on the Trove photos (including those marked freely available) suggests they are only available for personal use. Hack (talk) 07:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The NW corner of that intersection is the old Wesley Church, which is also listed on the heritage register. I don't think the little Qantas office or the goth hangout park on the SW corner have made it onto the register yet! In regards to copyright of old photos, has the PD status of new reproductions or digitisation of pre 1945(? or is it 55?) photos been confirmed? The-Pope (talk) 09:56, 14 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Try http://www.copyright.org.au/ and Duration of copyright INFORMATION SHEET G023 April 2009 - its a PDF and it has the answers - specially the table on pages 5 - 6 - otherwise 1955 is the short answer SatuSuro 09:40, 18 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It would appear that the area around the Hay St side of the intersection is a hive of heritage. The two buildings either side of the Gledden Building are both heritage listed Art Deco buildings... Hack (talk) 07:48, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Meetup?
Just noting I've put forward an idea for another WA meetup at the Perth meetup talk page. Orderinchaos 18:05, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Embarassment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark,_Western_Australia - has the signs of too many cooks - it needs an outsider uninvolved - to do a real cleanup - to have 2 note/ref systems is downright embarrassing to have it in the wa project - anyone? SatuSuro 14:18, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Ugh, what a mess. I've had a stab at cleaning it up, but someone else will have to deal with the images. Graham 87 12:42, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Went through with a chain saw and D9 rounded up enough peacocks and weasels to open a pet shop, images culled it still needs more especialy the history section, anyway its no longer the local tourism broucher Gnangarra 14:28, 27 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks - sounds like collateral damage was minimal then SatuSuro 04:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

WAFL Players Pre-AFL
Sure this has been discussed somewhere....People who played in the WAFL pre-AFL, are they notable? just regular players who havent won X award etc? Five Years 14:31, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * They'd need to meet the WP:GNG notability criteria because under the Australian rules criteria at WP:NSPORTS only VFL players before 1990 are considered notable... Hack (talk) 16:21, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You have to be careful about NSPORTS, even though it's existed for well over a year, that section was written by someone who's a rugby league fan! I suggested some changes, but we've never really ran with them and implemented them.  WT:AFL is probably the best place to discuss it, but I think that despite most people over 35 knowing that in the pre-80s era, each major state was fairly independent and at times even in skill/talent level, but few would argue that all pre-AFL WAFL players are notable.  I think point 3 of the Aussie rules section of NSPORTS, which is basically WP:GNG, opens the door to all Sandover/Simpson Medal winners, and probably most premiership/state players or 200 game players etc. The-Pope (talk) 16:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that there is need for a serious review of the Oz Rules section of NSPORTS - maybe your comments might be the catalyst. Dan arndt (talk) 09:31, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * pre:Eagles - As WAFL was the highest level for the sport in the State, that players from the league go on to represent WA, subject to WP:V in WP:RS all players are notable this is the same standard that is applied to all other team sports. Colts and Reserves players would require more.  Gnangarra 10:15, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I reckon you'd struggle to prove the notability of a lot of current WAFL players, there really isn't that much coverage in reliable sources. The pre-1990s players would be a bit easier to source given the more diverse and thorough coverage of the competition. Hack (talk) 08:00, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Bored, not time challenged?
Perth Airport seems to have an ongoing range of not very skillful edits - worth some of the local admins putting it on your watchlists please - thanks SatuSuro 07:32, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Wiki Takes Freo
Further to the discussions at the meetup on Saturday, I've made a start on the Wikipedia Takes Fremantle page. Sam Wilson 10:40, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * A date! The 17th of September.  I was at a Freo Society committee meeting this evening, and everyone is mightily excited at this idea.  I'm putting more info on Wikipedia Takes Fremantle. :-)  Please come and edit the Goals list!  Sam Wilson 13:56, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds great to me :) Count me in. Orderinchaos 14:25, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Usual stuff
As with all category and stub changes - you'll never see it here unless somebody bothers to let you know - after the fact - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub_types_for_deletion/Log/2011/August/13#Perth_stub_type_renames - I personally think that some of the articles that end up in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Perth,_Western_Australia_geography_stubs  are patently absurd - but hey, who will even bother - some sort of review is needed down the line I suppose - it has the smell of the arguments with Perth Scotland young eds.... SatuSuro 11:59, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Further exciting adventures likely at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub_types_for_deletion#Template:Perth-road-stub

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Perth_geography_stubs - SatuSuro 12:04, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It's simply that Perth is a dab page and the permanent category was at ... you know what sticklers us stub sorting types are :) Everything's being converted over - no real fuss except that the templates will be at PerthAU-xxx rather than just Perth-xxx. There should have been some contact with WP:WA, but then again, it should have been obvious things were moving from the notices on the templates and in the categories. Grutness...wha?  12:55, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Is the FooAU style used for any other templates? AU is not a common abbreviation for Australia (.au is only popular now from the domain names, it used to always be Aus or Aust), and Perth, Tasmania might not be happy with it.  Haven't the SfD and CfD people noticed yet that most people don't watchlist templates and cats?  PerthWA-xxx would have been preferable if you really had to dab them. The-Pope (talk) 15:03, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd agree - either WA or Aus would have been preferable. Orderinchaos 16:47, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There are some FooNSW ones as an example. They must not have discovered the recalcitrant undabbed Victoria and Melbourne ones yet. The-Pope (talk) 17:20, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The Victoria one is up for renaming; there's no need to dab the Melbourne one, since Melbourne is not a dab page. Grutness...wha?  09:57, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The standard is to use the name followed, where necessary, with the two-letter ISO code for the country - which for Australia is AU. Don't know how the NSW (and QLD, or that matter) ones got the way they did. Certainly there's nothing to stop there being a redirect from PerthWA-xxx as far as I can see (so I've made them - PerthWA-stub and PerthWA-geo-stub)... "Aus" wouldn't be acceptable, though. Grutness...wha?  01:18, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Proposed category renames
For all sorts of developmental reasons, I'd like to see our regional sub-categories (eg People from, Railways in etc) given some kind of standard naming, noting that the top level articles have names such as Gascoyne (Western Australia). The problem is that our regions have names which are little used other than by official agencies. One wouldn't, for example say "People from the Gascoyne" or "People from Gascoyne"; what do people here think it should be? (List of affected categories below.) Orderinchaos 00:02, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Category:Railway lines in Pilbara region of Western Australia
 * Category:People from the Goldfields-Esperance region of Western Australia
 * Category:People from the Gascoyne region of Western Australia
 * Category:People from the Mid West region of Western Australia
 * Category:People from the Wheatbelt region of Western Australia
 * Category:People from the South West region of Western Australia
 * Category:People from the Great Southern region of Western Australia
 * Category:People from the Peel region of Western Australia


 * personally I think people from regions is a silly idea that should not have been allowed to happen... if I was in a less time challenged situation I would put em up for CFD.
 * AS for regions have names which are little used other than by official agencies - we have a regions of western australia article that could standardise issues from that article perhaps? - an internal disambiguation process within the article could extract or link the commonly accepted usages while still giving vairants ? SatuSuro 11:01, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Cities gone missing
Can any one explain the rationale behind why someone has made the abitary decision to remove 13 metropolitan cities from Template:Cities of Western Australia? All I can see is a comment that they aren't cities in the traditional geographic sense. No explanation as to what is mean't be a traditional geographic sense. The provisions related to the changes for Cities and Towns are contained within clause 2.4 of the Local Government Act, 1995 (as amended) which essentially state the Governor can make the following desingations for a locality: In lieu of any other clear definition I think we should retain the previous version of the template. Dan arndt (talk) 05:35, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * a locality can be designated a City (in the metro areas) where it has a population of more than 30,000 residents & more than half live in a urban area (rural areas) has a population over 20,000 & more than half live in an urban area
 * a locality where more than half its population resides in an urban area can be designated a Town
 * anything is designated a Shire


 * It's a mess - I actually agree with the other user's edit (hence why I saw it but didn't revert), although a possible solution (and one I wouldn't oppose) is to dump the infobox entirely. It either gives a misleading impression if it follows the LGA definition, or is WP:OR if it follows a more traditional definition. It was controversial at the time it was created by another user. My reasons for agreeing with the user who made the change are that it's silly comparing apples and oranges in the same infobox - Stirling for instance is simply suburban Perth with three distinct parts with no historical relation, even though it's a "city" bigger than Wollongong if applied in the LGA sense. Most of the boundaries predate urban settlement, and make little sense - eg where I live is part of one LGA, but right on the border with two others, and one of those provides nearly all of our commercial services. Orderinchaos 10:27, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Further to Orderinchaos's "apples and oranges" comment, most of the Metropolitian Cities links were to Local Government Area pages, rather than the "cities" themselves. If the template were to be reverted to the previous edit, then all links in the infobox should ideally link to the relevant LGA's (e.g. City of Perth rather than Perth, Western Australia).


 * Also I apologize for my arbitrary edits, will discuss here in future. Outrune (talk) 08:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

West Kimberley - Australian National Heritage List
The West Kimberley has been added to the Australian National Heritage List - see here for details. Perhaps members of this project may like to write an article about the listed place and may know where a suitable photograph for the list may be found. Cheers, Mattinbgn (talk) 07:52, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The content of the links is more than a little vague as to where exactly has been listed. We have the Shire of Derby-West Kimberley, but the linked content seems to refer to areas in the Shire of Broome. Orderinchaos 15:42, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * There is a map of the area here if it helps. If I could get motivated I would write the article specifically about the NHL-listed area itself rather than attach it to an existing article. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 22:13, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Note
Found a CFD for Category:People from Mullewa, Western Australia while, ironically, placing an article in the category, so bringing it to the project's attention. Orderinchaos 15:40, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

LOL
If you're bored and looking for something to amuse you, I suggest reading about 1923-1925 municipal politics in South Perth on Trove. I'm mining the coverage for information about chairmen, but it seems the suburb had a reputation for, as one editorial put it, "the stormy character of its domestic politics". There's even a story in there about the council's secretary pulling a revolver on the engineer. Crazy stuff. Orderinchaos 18:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * yeah but no one in the australian project let alone the state or politics projects seems the slightest interested in looking at local govt politics - youre the exception! SatuSuro 00:13, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Would that fit into the history section of the City of South Perth page? Hack (talk) 03:28, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It should but I want to get a reliable secondary source first. The reportings in the papers of the time, while likely accurate, sound rather salacious in character :P Orderinchaos 13:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)